Omniscience costs 10 mana, paradox engine costs 5 and lets you float mana for activations and x-spells. At the low low cost of playing good mana rocks. Paradox engine is about 1000% better than omniscience in EDH.
The tooth and nail argument was more to point out how comical it is to say "turn 5" for a 5 mana spell, not trying to ignite that debate. The problem people have with T&N is it dropping on turn 3 or 4 and ending the game. Not an on-curve casting of it ending a 9 turn game.
You may not have been around for the arguments on PoK, but a common argument at the time was "it's a serious deckbuilding sacrifice to play all these great creatures that everyone was playing anyway." That's' basically identical to one of the arguments you guys are making, "It's a deckbuilding sacrifice to play all the best artifact mana." Which is nonsense.
Omniscience costs 10 mana, paradox engine costs 5 and lets you float mana for activations and x-spells. At the low low cost of playing good mana rocks. Paradox engine is about 1000% better than omniscience in EDH.
Wrong. To do Season's Past loops I'd need around 6 mana from rocks/dorks vs just omniscence. Six mana from rocks/dorks + 5 opening mana for the Dox Engine is also more than the three I'd need for Isochron Scepter x Dramatic Reversal, which also needs 3 mana less to get into play. So not only is Dox Engine not always better than Omniscience, it's not even always better than it's more similar equivalents. (As a side note dox engine with isochron scepter is probably fun as sh*t)
Well clearly I'm wrong because there are two scenarios you can think of where omniscience might be better.
Paradox Engine just requires you to play powerful tap effects and mana rocks, which are good anyway and often go infinite in several other ways (e.g. rings of brighthearth, power artifact, staff of domination, sensei's divining top).
Something people often forget with Paradox Engine is that it just goes infinite on accident all the time with commonly good cards. Staff of Domination is a good one, but Top is another good one that's commonly played.
It's just an awful nightmare of a card because it goes ALMOST infinite with tons of great cards, which leads to 20 minute durdlefest while someone double taps top every time they cast an instant then untaps all their crap again with top and tries to figure out how to win. It's atrocious.
Pokken's argument might be the best against Paradox Engine. It's not that's it's just windmill slam into win, when built around as an engine it could take a long time to get there--and in many cases, there's a non-zero chance of failure.
It's pretty much exactly the same as prophet of kruphix in that it busts the action economy in a non-deterministic way that forces a drawn out but mostly guaranteed win. In my experience anyway. When PoK came out in our playgroup the joke was "Ok, it's my upkeep, take your turn then I'll take mine I guess."
With the lovely addition of occasionally creating a hard stax-lock.
Perhaps this is why I start to see so many Null Rods in edh decks I played against these days. Time to pack a null rod in every single one of my decks, even when I'm running Paradox Engine in one of them
There are other ways to stop engine decks besides packing Null Rods or banning. For example a Mesmeric Orb will often deter the engine user from being too greedy with it.
Eh, mesmeric orb's as likely to get used as a wincon (mill to metamorph for example) as it is to deter someone. And Null rod only shuts it off for mana rocks, doesn't shut off dorks.
Agree, against decks that are prepared for reanimation having a mesmeric orb is a godsend. But for most players mesmeric orb hurts them more than help, especially when other cards such as Rest in Peace are on the board too.
Didn't get to see many Paradox Engine users go off in my meta though. Maybe I'm just not lucky to see it or our resident prison player is just too good at his job. His WURG prison/combo is so hard to fight that we had to 3v1 most of the time. Oh that reminds me, Rule of Law is a good card against Paradox Engine reliant decks too.
That said, Paradox Engine is definitely a strong card that will tip the scales when players' decks aren't equipped to fight against it. But in an "all strategies welcomed" meta it aren't really that strong since there are many strategies that can limit its effects or oppose it. Just like how mass land destruction is the key to stop players from being too ramp happy.
Something people often forget with Paradox Engine is that it just goes infinite on accident all the time with commonly good cards. Staff of Domination is a good one, but Top is another good one that's commonly played.
No, it doesn't. The only times I have ever seen Paradox Engine even come close to 'accidentally' going infinite is with an exceptional board state supporting it.
How exactly does it go infinite with Sensei's Divining Top? You need at least one more 'tap to draw' effect that stays on the battlefield, and at least one nonland permanent that can tap for mana. Congratulations, you have assembled a multi-card combo that allows you to draw your deck, one card at a time, at sorcery speed that is vulnerable to both targeted removal and counter effects at any point in the loop. Oh, and one of those cards is a CMC 5 permanent that does literally nothing without the support of the others.
Pokken's argument might be the best against Paradox Engine. It's not that's it's just windmill slam into win, when built around as an engine it could take a long time to get there--and in many cases, there's a non-zero chance of failure.
Not only is often not the case, it is also no different from numerous other combo effects in the game.
At my local store, there is between one to two dozen people that show up for Commander weekly, of a fairly wide range of skill and power level, and none of whom play 'competitively'. Many of them have more than one deck. While the frequency I play with any single person can vary dramatically, I do not recall seeing Paradox Engine played more than once or twice among them. When it was played, it didn't matter. None of the decks played I can think of would be improved by adding the card. I will try to get Incanur to comment here about it as well - he plays at the same location, and plays with a larger variety of players than I typically do.
I have been visiting family in the same area as NateDogg for the last few weeks, and have played at the local store there a few times. The story is very similar - a dozen Commander players of varying skill & power level. None of whom I have seen play with Paradox Engine, and no decks that would be noticeably improved by it.
I have now played in multiple reasonably large, diverse groups, and have yet to see Paradox Engine be a problem in any form. Every one I have spoken to about the card agrees that it can be very good, but is not a problem (though one guy uses it as a reason to complain about Arcum Daggson).
Edit: @Sheldon
A while back, I believe I commented about a few problems I have with the Rules Committee, and you asked for clarification? I was to busy at the time to reply, and ended up forgetting.
Though not quite the same regarding Paradox Engine, the concept is similar. To often, the Rules Committee does not cater to the casual player base, but rather the bad player base. Those who, when they have a problem with a card, choose to complain about it rather than try to understand how it works, and how to counter it.
Here, Paradox Engine is incredibly easy to disrupt. It is a CMC 5 artifact that does nothing on its own. You can target the Engine directly with counter effects or removal (likely in response to a trigger). Because of the high CMC, you will often have a full turn cycle to disrupt it before it really becomes a problem.
The Engine relies on non-land tap effects to do anything. You can target those permanents with counter effects or removal, or Linvala, Keeper of Silence & Stony Silence effects.
The Engine relies on casting spells to do anything. You can disrupt your opponents ability to cast spells with discard effects or Rule of Law effects.
Paradox Engine is not a card that should be played in the vast majority of decks, and it is highly vulnerable to a wide variety of disruption, both proactive and reactive, available to all colors.
If a card can be disrupted by taking reasonable countermeasures, it is not a card that should be removed from the format. Stop banning cards because players would rather complain, than learn how to deal with them.
Because of the high CMC, you will often have a full turn cycle to disrupt it before it really becomes a problem.
Lol, what? Every time I've seen PE win the game, save maybe one or two exceptions, the game was over on the same turn PE landed.
It has been about 50/50 for me.
I wonder if there are parallels to be drawn to Panoptic Mirror. As in, even doing something benign too many times gets old real quick, plus the random combo win sprinkled on top.
At my local store, there is between one to two dozen people that show up for Commander weekly, of a fairly wide range of skill and power level, and none of whom play 'competitively'.
I'd say a certain person with a Yisan, the Wanderer Bard deck plays competitively. His Yisan is a cEDH deck, as was the The Gitrog Monster list he had. A number of us at least take inspiration from cEDH, myself included. I watch Lab Maniacs and Team Turn Three videos, for example.
Many of them have more than one deck. While the frequency I play with any single person can vary dramatically, I do not recall seeing Paradox Engine played more than once or twice among them. When it was played, it didn't matter. None of the decks played I can think of would be improved by adding the card. I will try to get Incanur to comment here about it as well - he plays at the same location, and plays with a larger variety of players than I typically do.
I've only seen it around half a dozen times, but it's always been good and usually great. I run a copy in my Kozilek deck. A couple weeks ago it allowed me to generate tons of mana in conjunction with rocks like Mana Vault and Basalt Monolith. All Is Dust netted 2! I won that game.
Another time, the competitive player mentioned above was borrowing my Kozilek deck. He got Sensei's Divining Top and Paradox Engine on the field and thought he had a combo. I mentioned that it wasn't quite so easy. He durdled a bit and passed. I think the Engine got destroyed soon after. He didn't win that game.
Every one I have spoken to about the card agrees that it can be very good, but is not a problem
I agree with this assessment. Engine gets bonkers with most any nonland tap abilities, but I don't see much reason to ban it unless you're going to ban various other powerful cards.
Obviously top is not a combo. Just. Very strong synergy. The point is the card only requires playing other great cards to be good. There isn't really a deckbuilding sacrifice as such. Slots right in to any number of strong decks.
The pod/survival/fauna shaman style toolbox decks also have the same interaction. I haven't played it with pod yet but I suspect it's essentially a 2 card combo with it most of the time.
I expect I'll have to just disagree with you guys and let history be the adjudicator here. I've seen a lot of engine and it's win rate is around 75% or so (I can think of only a couple of times we beat it).
It's got all the hallmarks of a prophet of kruphix ban and I feel that's a fairly obvious parallel though I expect the contrary opinions are part of the same chorus of play more removal in response to pok
They're nothing alike with the exception that they untap things. For Dox Engine to win on the spot the person needs: at least 3~4 mana rocks on board, and one or more cards in play or in hand that let him continue to draw or some kind of reusable tutor like Yisan or maybe Pod or lots of cards in hand, a boardstate like that should be causing people to be casting worried glances in that direction anyways. PoK, on the other hand, only requires you to have her in play in order to start letting you take turns during everyone elses turns.
Sure Dox Engine can cause turns to durdle a bit even if the person doesn't end up winning, but if your group does't like it then just talk to the player, thats what the "social contract" aspect of the format is supposed to be?
Like honestly, if cards are going to start getting banned because they win with "things you're already running" then you may as well ban Createrhoof Behemoth, as he can win 'out of nowhere' with just a couple of creatures out, or either Isochron Scepter or Dramatic Reversal as they're far stronger than Dox Engine, albeit its two cards.
Other people have already mentioned that they haven't had issued with Dox Engine. Why that is who knows, but t's not Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial which degenerate the entire flow of the game around them, it's not PoK which lets you essentially take 4 turns to everyone elses single turn, it's not the overly costed spells that invalidate the rest of the game, or Braids or Leovold which can easily turn the entire game into a long durdle or lock people out of playing. It's a regular card whose power can vary depending on both the deck it's in and the current boardstate.
I think you're understating what it takes to win with dox engine. Typically it requires 2 rocks in my experience, only one of which has to be good; I've lost to mana vault and a signet several times. The combination of 2 rocks and a draw spell pretty much ends the game since you usually draw another rock which lets you cast another spell, etc.
Craterhoof is actually a great example of a card that takes some setup. You're not killing a board with it without 10+ creatures on the board and that's a pretty serious commitment. While you do get to just play Craterhoof alongside other good cards it generally takes longer to go off and doesn't require durdling for 20 minutes to get it done. I can count on one hand the number of T3 craterhoof kills I've suffered, and it's been in the format for the entire time I've played it.
And much like T&N, when someone resolves it and wins you just shuffle up and get another game going, vs. the durdling of Paradox engine.
I am sure plenty of people have no issues with. Plenty of people had no issues with PoK. Plenty of people had no issues with Sylvan Primordial. Not really a meaningful argument.
They're nothing alike with the exception that they untap things. For Dox Engine to win on the spot the person needs: at least 3~4 mana rocks on board, and one or more cards in play or in hand that let him continue to draw or some kind of reusable tutor like Yisan or maybe Pod or lots of cards in hand, a boardstate like that should be causing people to be casting worried glances in that direction anyways. PoK, on the other hand, only requires you to have her in play in order to start letting you take turns during everyone elses turns.
Sure Dox Engine can cause turns to durdle a bit even if the person doesn't end up winning, but if your group does't like it then just talk to the player, thats what the "social contract" aspect of the format is supposed to be?
Like honestly, if cards are going to start getting banned because they win with "things you're already running" then you may as well ban Createrhoof Behemoth, as he can win 'out of nowhere' with just a couple of creatures out, or either Isochron Scepter or Dramatic Reversal as they're far stronger than Dox Engine, albeit its two cards.
Other people have already mentioned that they haven't had issued with Dox Engine. Why that is who knows, but t's not Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial which degenerate the entire flow of the game around them, it's not PoK which lets you essentially take 4 turns to everyone elses single turn, it's not the overly costed spells that invalidate the rest of the game, or Braids or Leovold which can easily turn the entire game into a long durdle or lock people out of playing. It's a regular card whose power can vary depending on both the deck it's in and the current boardstate.
From a competitive standpoint, paradox engine has been much much stronger than the green big stuffs cards we've seen banned in the past. Paradox engine created entire archetypes that are designed to just get paradox engine out as fast as possible and win on the spot.
Paradox engine can and will absolutely make the entire game about paradox engine if your deck can draw cards well. You are almost certainly about to take the next 10 minutes playing out your turn when this happens. To pull this off, you need the same mana rocks you are probably running anyways, and the same card draw you are probably running anyways.
Your definition of regular card isn't consistent. POK requires you to have creatures to cast every turn and that it isn't removed. Leovold requires you to have wheels. Primeval and Sylvan require the game to proceed at a slower pace to be valuable. All of these cards have power that can vary depending on both the deck they are in and the current board state, which is the same definition you used to shoot down paradox engine.
From a competitive standpoint, paradox engine has been much much stronger than the green big stuffs cards we've seen banned in the past. Paradox engine created entire archetypes that are designed to just get paradox engine out as fast as possible and win on the spot.
Paradox engine can and will absolutely make the entire game about paradox engine if your deck can draw cards well. You are almost certainly about to take the next 10 minutes playing out your turn when this happens. To pull this off, you need the same mana rocks you are probably running anyways, and the same card draw you are probably running anyways.
Your definition of regular card isn't consistent. POK requires you to have creatures to cast every turn and that it isn't removed. Leovold requires you to have wheels. Primeval and Sylvan require the game to proceed at a slower pace to be valuable. All of these cards have power that can vary depending on both the deck they are in and the current board state, which is the same definition you used to shoot down paradox engine.
Competitive standpoints don't matter to the RC, and even if it did most real cEDH decks don't run it. The fact that there are decks literally built to play with it is another good reason why it should stay, format diversity.
It's not the same thing. Titan and Primordial made EVERYONE's game about them. Everyone would start trying to steal, clone, kill, or revive them for value. Sure, decks wouldn't change much by just adding a Dox Engine to it, but that's not a guarantee that it'd actually be good in the deck, if that was the case everyone would be running it.
PoK doesn't require anything. Just being able to untap is good enough, the flash is what pushes it over the top. (You also always have access to your commander so theres that too). It also tended to centralize games similarly to Titan and Primordial. And those last two don't require a slower game at all, they just need the deck to have green, if it was legal again almost every green deck would rejam them in because of the tempo swing and abusability they provide at any point of the game.
Again, if your playgroup doesn't like it just talk to the person playing it. The only box this card should be maybe be ticked for the RC on this card is "Creates Undesirable Game States (Losing is not an undesirable game state)", because of the potential durdling. But when you look at the amount of cards that are currently legal that extend the game by over half an hour in casual decks, it's utterly ridiculous to ban Dox Engine for that.
As a side note, it's pretty amusing how some people say that running more removal isn't an answer when across their listed decks theres a grand total of only 4 instant speed removals. How do you expect cards to not beat you if you can't interact on the stack at all?
So, when I saw the spoiler for M19, I could tell immediately that Chaos Wand would be insane with Paradox Engine + a handful of mana rocks, since the instant or sorcery spell one hits with the Wand is cast, every time that happens, Paradox Engine untaps the mana rocks and the Wand. Today I played my first game with my Rashmi deck since slotting in the Wand. I used the Wand a couple times on its own, and it was good, as I hit a Cultivate to ramp a bit and also hit some removal (Path to Exile and some green "destroy target artifact" effect). Then I got Paradox Engine into play along with the Wand, and as I had predicted, things got totally nuts.
On the occasion I ran into a sorcery or instant that wasn't advantageous to cast (like, say, a boardwipe that would have messed with my board state), I always had enough extra mana available from the rocks to cast something small, thereby untapping the rocks and the Wand again. Doing this, I drew a pile of extra cards, got most of the lands in my deck onto the battlefield, was able to tutor for things a few times and pretty much devastated my opponents' board states. I would probably have been able to go through three players' decks and cast every instant and sorcery in those decks, except that the three opponents scooped after I hit two extra turn cards partway through the second player's deck.
Alone, Chaos Wand is a pretty good card. Sometimes you will hit a dud, but mostly it provides repeated, incremental value while exploiting your opponents' resources. But with Paradox Engine, it is just plain insane.
Alone, Chaos Wand is a pretty good card. Sometimes you will hit a dud, but mostly it provides repeated, incremental value while exploiting your opponents' resources. But with Paradox Engine, it is just plain insane.
Just want to add that this is "with PE and 4 mana coming from mana rocks or mana dorks". Most of the time, this is a combo with a minimum of 4 cards, with a real possibility fizzing (counter spells are definitely a problem).
Yes, it is powerful, but there are lots of 4-card combos that are busted.
Is it more busted than Ashnod's Altar + Nim deathmantle + a creature that combos with them (Sun Titan, Grave Titan and every other creature that makes a million tokens, Reveillark, Karmic Guide, ... even Marionette Master makes infinite tokens and drains infinitely)?
I get it that PE combos with a lot of things. But it is almost always a 4 card combo (very rarely 3 card) and you can't ban a card because of 4 card combos.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
It is cheaper CMC wise and the pieces of it are tutorable so it is easy to slot into a lot of decks that run signets and a sol ring and other mana rocks / dorks.
Also the Paradox Engine thing requires spells to make mana where as if you have 3 mana in rocks and the Scepter combo you can make a big storm or a lot of mana without having a hand full of spells.
It is cheaper CMC wise and the pieces of it are tutorable so it is easy to slot into a lot of decks that run signets and a sol ring and other mana rocks / dorks.
Also the Paradox Engine thing requires spells to make mana where as if you have 3 mana in rocks and the Scepter combo you can make a big storm or a lot of mana without having a hand full of spells.
Agreed here - Iso-reversal is more prevalent, and requires less building around. People play Mystical Tutor anyway, so it's cheap and easy. PE requires building around, and warps the deck it's in. No doubt it's strong if you have the right conditions for it to work well, but that's not a given. It really only responds to the degeneracy you, as a player and deckbuilder, feed it.
The tooth and nail argument was more to point out how comical it is to say "turn 5" for a 5 mana spell, not trying to ignite that debate. The problem people have with T&N is it dropping on turn 3 or 4 and ending the game. Not an on-curve casting of it ending a 9 turn game.
You may not have been around for the arguments on PoK, but a common argument at the time was "it's a serious deckbuilding sacrifice to play all these great creatures that everyone was playing anyway." That's' basically identical to one of the arguments you guys are making, "It's a deckbuilding sacrifice to play all the best artifact mana." Which is nonsense.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Wrong. To do Season's Past loops I'd need around 6 mana from rocks/dorks vs just omniscence. Six mana from rocks/dorks + 5 opening mana for the Dox Engine is also more than the three I'd need for Isochron Scepter x Dramatic Reversal, which also needs 3 mana less to get into play. So not only is Dox Engine not always better than Omniscience, it's not even always better than it's more similar equivalents. (As a side note dox engine with isochron scepter is probably fun as sh*t)
Paradox Engine just requires you to play powerful tap effects and mana rocks, which are good anyway and often go infinite in several other ways (e.g. rings of brighthearth, power artifact, staff of domination, sensei's divining top).
Something people often forget with Paradox Engine is that it just goes infinite on accident all the time with commonly good cards. Staff of Domination is a good one, but Top is another good one that's commonly played.
It's just an awful nightmare of a card because it goes ALMOST infinite with tons of great cards, which leads to 20 minute durdlefest while someone double taps top every time they cast an instant then untaps all their crap again with top and tries to figure out how to win. It's atrocious.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
With the lovely addition of occasionally creating a hard stax-lock.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
There are other ways to stop engine decks besides packing Null Rods or banning. For example a Mesmeric Orb will often deter the engine user from being too greedy with it.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Didn't get to see many Paradox Engine users go off in my meta though. Maybe I'm just not lucky to see it or our resident prison player is just too good at his job. His WURG prison/combo is so hard to fight that we had to 3v1 most of the time. Oh that reminds me, Rule of Law is a good card against Paradox Engine reliant decks too.
That said, Paradox Engine is definitely a strong card that will tip the scales when players' decks aren't equipped to fight against it. But in an "all strategies welcomed" meta it aren't really that strong since there are many strategies that can limit its effects or oppose it. Just like how mass land destruction is the key to stop players from being too ramp happy.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
No, it doesn't. The only times I have ever seen Paradox Engine even come close to 'accidentally' going infinite is with an exceptional board state supporting it.
How exactly does it go infinite with Sensei's Divining Top? You need at least one more 'tap to draw' effect that stays on the battlefield, and at least one nonland permanent that can tap for mana. Congratulations, you have assembled a multi-card combo that allows you to draw your deck, one card at a time, at sorcery speed that is vulnerable to both targeted removal and counter effects at any point in the loop. Oh, and one of those cards is a CMC 5 permanent that does literally nothing without the support of the others.
Not only is often not the case, it is also no different from numerous other combo effects in the game.
At my local store, there is between one to two dozen people that show up for Commander weekly, of a fairly wide range of skill and power level, and none of whom play 'competitively'. Many of them have more than one deck. While the frequency I play with any single person can vary dramatically, I do not recall seeing Paradox Engine played more than once or twice among them. When it was played, it didn't matter. None of the decks played I can think of would be improved by adding the card. I will try to get Incanur to comment here about it as well - he plays at the same location, and plays with a larger variety of players than I typically do.
I have been visiting family in the same area as NateDogg for the last few weeks, and have played at the local store there a few times. The story is very similar - a dozen Commander players of varying skill & power level. None of whom I have seen play with Paradox Engine, and no decks that would be noticeably improved by it.
I have now played in multiple reasonably large, diverse groups, and have yet to see Paradox Engine be a problem in any form. Every one I have spoken to about the card agrees that it can be very good, but is not a problem (though one guy uses it as a reason to complain about Arcum Daggson).
Edit: @Sheldon
A while back, I believe I commented about a few problems I have with the Rules Committee, and you asked for clarification? I was to busy at the time to reply, and ended up forgetting.
Though not quite the same regarding Paradox Engine, the concept is similar. To often, the Rules Committee does not cater to the casual player base, but rather the bad player base. Those who, when they have a problem with a card, choose to complain about it rather than try to understand how it works, and how to counter it.
Here, Paradox Engine is incredibly easy to disrupt. It is a CMC 5 artifact that does nothing on its own. You can target the Engine directly with counter effects or removal (likely in response to a trigger). Because of the high CMC, you will often have a full turn cycle to disrupt it before it really becomes a problem.
The Engine relies on non-land tap effects to do anything. You can target those permanents with counter effects or removal, or Linvala, Keeper of Silence & Stony Silence effects.
The Engine relies on casting spells to do anything. You can disrupt your opponents ability to cast spells with discard effects or Rule of Law effects.
Paradox Engine is not a card that should be played in the vast majority of decks, and it is highly vulnerable to a wide variety of disruption, both proactive and reactive, available to all colors.
If a card can be disrupted by taking reasonable countermeasures, it is not a card that should be removed from the format. Stop banning cards because players would rather complain, than learn how to deal with them.
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I wonder if there are parallels to be drawn to Panoptic Mirror. As in, even doing something benign too many times gets old real quick, plus the random combo win sprinkled on top.
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I'd say a certain person with a Yisan, the Wanderer Bard deck plays competitively. His Yisan is a cEDH deck, as was the The Gitrog Monster list he had. A number of us at least take inspiration from cEDH, myself included. I watch Lab Maniacs and Team Turn Three videos, for example.
I've only seen it around half a dozen times, but it's always been good and usually great. I run a copy in my Kozilek deck. A couple weeks ago it allowed me to generate tons of mana in conjunction with rocks like Mana Vault and Basalt Monolith. All Is Dust netted 2! I won that game.
Another time, the competitive player mentioned above was borrowing my Kozilek deck. He got Sensei's Divining Top and Paradox Engine on the field and thought he had a combo. I mentioned that it wasn't quite so easy. He durdled a bit and passed. I think the Engine got destroyed soon after. He didn't win that game.
I've also seen it in a very-causal five-color creature deck. It's still amazing with either Selvala, Heart of the Wilds or Selvala, Explorer Returned. It's a high-priority removal target.
I agree with this assessment. Engine gets bonkers with most any nonland tap abilities, but I don't see much reason to ban it unless you're going to ban various other powerful cards.
Trying to play competitively and actually playing competitively are two separate things.
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Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
The pod/survival/fauna shaman style toolbox decks also have the same interaction. I haven't played it with pod yet but I suspect it's essentially a 2 card combo with it most of the time.
I expect I'll have to just disagree with you guys and let history be the adjudicator here. I've seen a lot of engine and it's win rate is around 75% or so (I can think of only a couple of times we beat it).
It's got all the hallmarks of a prophet of kruphix ban and I feel that's a fairly obvious parallel though I expect the contrary opinions are part of the same chorus of play more removal in response to pok
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Sure Dox Engine can cause turns to durdle a bit even if the person doesn't end up winning, but if your group does't like it then just talk to the player, thats what the "social contract" aspect of the format is supposed to be?
Like honestly, if cards are going to start getting banned because they win with "things you're already running" then you may as well ban Createrhoof Behemoth, as he can win 'out of nowhere' with just a couple of creatures out, or either Isochron Scepter or Dramatic Reversal as they're far stronger than Dox Engine, albeit its two cards.
Other people have already mentioned that they haven't had issued with Dox Engine. Why that is who knows, but t's not Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial which degenerate the entire flow of the game around them, it's not PoK which lets you essentially take 4 turns to everyone elses single turn, it's not the overly costed spells that invalidate the rest of the game, or Braids or Leovold which can easily turn the entire game into a long durdle or lock people out of playing. It's a regular card whose power can vary depending on both the deck it's in and the current boardstate.
Craterhoof is actually a great example of a card that takes some setup. You're not killing a board with it without 10+ creatures on the board and that's a pretty serious commitment. While you do get to just play Craterhoof alongside other good cards it generally takes longer to go off and doesn't require durdling for 20 minutes to get it done. I can count on one hand the number of T3 craterhoof kills I've suffered, and it's been in the format for the entire time I've played it.
And much like T&N, when someone resolves it and wins you just shuffle up and get another game going, vs. the durdling of Paradox engine.
I am sure plenty of people have no issues with. Plenty of people had no issues with PoK. Plenty of people had no issues with Sylvan Primordial. Not really a meaningful argument.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
From a competitive standpoint, paradox engine has been much much stronger than the green big stuffs cards we've seen banned in the past. Paradox engine created entire archetypes that are designed to just get paradox engine out as fast as possible and win on the spot.
Paradox engine can and will absolutely make the entire game about paradox engine if your deck can draw cards well. You are almost certainly about to take the next 10 minutes playing out your turn when this happens. To pull this off, you need the same mana rocks you are probably running anyways, and the same card draw you are probably running anyways.
Your definition of regular card isn't consistent. POK requires you to have creatures to cast every turn and that it isn't removed. Leovold requires you to have wheels. Primeval and Sylvan require the game to proceed at a slower pace to be valuable. All of these cards have power that can vary depending on both the deck they are in and the current board state, which is the same definition you used to shoot down paradox engine.
Competitive standpoints don't matter to the RC, and even if it did most real cEDH decks don't run it. The fact that there are decks literally built to play with it is another good reason why it should stay, format diversity.
It's not the same thing. Titan and Primordial made EVERYONE's game about them. Everyone would start trying to steal, clone, kill, or revive them for value. Sure, decks wouldn't change much by just adding a Dox Engine to it, but that's not a guarantee that it'd actually be good in the deck, if that was the case everyone would be running it.
PoK doesn't require anything. Just being able to untap is good enough, the flash is what pushes it over the top. (You also always have access to your commander so theres that too). It also tended to centralize games similarly to Titan and Primordial. And those last two don't require a slower game at all, they just need the deck to have green, if it was legal again almost every green deck would rejam them in because of the tempo swing and abusability they provide at any point of the game.
Again, if your playgroup doesn't like it just talk to the person playing it. The only box this card should be maybe be ticked for the RC on this card is "Creates Undesirable Game States (Losing is not an undesirable game state)", because of the potential durdling. But when you look at the amount of cards that are currently legal that extend the game by over half an hour in casual decks, it's utterly ridiculous to ban Dox Engine for that.
As a side note, it's pretty amusing how some people say that running more removal isn't an answer when across their listed decks theres a grand total of only 4 instant speed removals. How do you expect cards to not beat you if you can't interact on the stack at all?
On the occasion I ran into a sorcery or instant that wasn't advantageous to cast (like, say, a boardwipe that would have messed with my board state), I always had enough extra mana available from the rocks to cast something small, thereby untapping the rocks and the Wand again. Doing this, I drew a pile of extra cards, got most of the lands in my deck onto the battlefield, was able to tutor for things a few times and pretty much devastated my opponents' board states. I would probably have been able to go through three players' decks and cast every instant and sorcery in those decks, except that the three opponents scooped after I hit two extra turn cards partway through the second player's deck.
Alone, Chaos Wand is a pretty good card. Sometimes you will hit a dud, but mostly it provides repeated, incremental value while exploiting your opponents' resources. But with Paradox Engine, it is just plain insane.
Just want to add that this is "with PE and 4 mana coming from mana rocks or mana dorks". Most of the time, this is a combo with a minimum of 4 cards, with a real possibility fizzing (counter spells are definitely a problem).
Yes, it is powerful, but there are lots of 4-card combos that are busted.
Is it more busted than Ashnod's Altar + Nim deathmantle + a creature that combos with them (Sun Titan, Grave Titan and every other creature that makes a million tokens, Reveillark, Karmic Guide, ... even Marionette Master makes infinite tokens and drains infinitely)?
I get it that PE combos with a lot of things. But it is almost always a 4 card combo (very rarely 3 card) and you can't ban a card because of 4 card combos.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Maybe Wand changes that and PE gets another look, but I highly doubt it.
Also the Paradox Engine thing requires spells to make mana where as if you have 3 mana in rocks and the Scepter combo you can make a big storm or a lot of mana without having a hand full of spells.
Agreed here - Iso-reversal is more prevalent, and requires less building around. People play Mystical Tutor anyway, so it's cheap and easy. PE requires building around, and warps the deck it's in. No doubt it's strong if you have the right conditions for it to work well, but that's not a given. It really only responds to the degeneracy you, as a player and deckbuilder, feed it.