This is a format that is defined by having access to your legendary creature. It encourages you to build a deck around it, because you are more or less guaranteed acces to it. In decks that can run it, Karakas would be an even bigger auto-include than Sol Ring and Mana Crypt together. In my meta, every multiplayergame at least one player plays a deck with white so it would be present in every single game. I know it can help some commanders to be more efficient, but it would basically invalidate any commander with CMC 5 or more without an ETB effect. At least that is what it would do in my meta, your meta may vary.
Let wizards print a Ruins of Karakas card that can be used only on a creature you control. That would be a powerful but fine card to have. But Karakas? No. It's the biggest anti-spirit-of -EDH card I can think of.
Ruins of Karakas would be pretty powerful as a way to protect your commander from shut-down effects and avoid commander tax, and it would obviously be pretty messed up with some generals with powerful ETB effects (Zegana? Maelstrom Wanderer??), but yeah, I'd much rather have that in the game than the actual Karakas.
This is a format that is defined by having access to your legendary creature. It encourages you to build a deck around it, because you are more or less guaranteed acces to it. In decks that can run it, Karakas would be an even bigger auto-include than Sol Ring and Mana Crypt together. In my meta, every multiplayergame at least one player plays a deck with white so it would be present in every single game. I know it can help some commanders to be more efficient, but it would basically invalidate any commander with CMC 5 or more without an ETB effect. At least that is what it would do in my meta, your meta may vary.
Let wizards print a Ruins of Karakas card that can be used only on a creature you control. That would be a powerful but fine card to have. But Karakas? No. It's the biggest anti-spirit-of -EDH card I can think of.
Ruins of Karakas would be pretty powerful as a way to protect your commander from shut-down effects and avoid commander tax, and it would obviously be pretty messed up with some generals with powerful ETB effects (Zegana? Maelstrom Wanderer??), but yeah, I'd much rather have that in the game than the actual Karakas.
I'd actually prefer to have neither
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I don't view an unbanning of Karakas is completely devastating as some of you would lead us to believe. Cost will be a big facotr in keeping it out of the hands of everyone, meaning you wont run into less then you'd expect from deck color. Also, you have to draw and play the card to do anything with it. I've had plenty of decks with crazy OP lands, like Valakut that can go a dozen games without drawing it.
Furthermore, we have a few cycles of cards that dodge Karakas; planeswalker commanders, undevoted gods, even partners.
I don't view an unbanning of Karakas is completely devastating as some of you would lead us to believe. Cost will be a big facotr in keeping it out of the hands of everyone, meaning you wont run into less then you'd expect from deck color. Also, you have to draw and play the card to do anything with it. I've had plenty of decks with crazy OP lands, like Valakut that can go a dozen games without drawing it.
Furthermore, we have a few cycles of cards that dodge Karakas; planeswalker commanders, undevoted gods, even partners.
You actually have to draw and play LoA, and then it only works if you only have 7 cards in hand, doesn't seem like it would be a big problem. {/sarcasm}
Yeah, at first I was leaning toward giving it a chance despite how oppressive it could be, but now I've gone the other way. The fact that it can easily be oppressive to fair strategies is enough given how ubiquitous it will be, but that it also has plenty of ways to let you abuse your own commanders more makes it even worse, because even if you run into a group of all hexproof it will still save your commander or bounce it for profit.
The fact that so many pro Karakas posters keep suggesting running non interactive commanders (shroud and hexproof) as a viable answer to Karakas is evidence that unbanning Karakas would push such commanders to an even greater extent, resulting in a skewed meta game favoring shroud and hexproof commanders. This is the sort of thing that snowballs, btw, as members of a playgroup switch to non interactive commanders to avoid getting shut down by Karakas, whoever doesn't switch becomes the target, and ends up being the only person at the table who can't play their commander because they are the only one that can be targeted by Karakas. This would be an incredibly limiting meta game shift, even more extreme than saying that garbage like Sowing Salt would be a reasonable inclusion in a deck as an answer to Karakas.
And most posts, including my own, have assumed only one player is trotting out Karakas. There could easily be multiple Karakases (Karaki?) on the board at the same time, making the game miserable. And in Commander, we've long known that the singleton rule does jack to prevent you from getting a card easily. Karakas would be the go to target for expedition map in every mono white deck, and once you start adding green or black it gets even easier. Its practically a go to target for any early tutor, on par with Sol Ring. If a player at the table has Karakas in their deck, it will more likely than not show up in a game. If multiple players do, its all but certain.
Valakut is the sort of card that can get you value if you draw it, but isn't strong enough in the format to work to get on the field. Karakas is the sort of card you will find yourself actively searching for, because its impact is immediate and the value it generates its leagues beyond Valakut in most decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Ruins of Karakas would be pretty powerful as a way to protect your commander from shut-down effects and avoid commander tax, and it would obviously be pretty messed up with some generals with powerful ETB effects (Zegana? Maelstrom Wanderer??), but yeah, I'd much rather have that in the game than the actual Karakas.
Actually assuming Ruins of Karakas still has a W color identity, the number of generals that can abuse it would drop drastically. But then again I remember there's Narset, so yeah, I don't think I also want to see Ruins of Karakas.
This thread makes me nervous because Sheldon started it. He did put the Standard Disclaimer, but that disclaimer works both ways and but becomes especially potent the other way because Karakas was just in EMA so I'll be kicking myself if it unbanned-spike because its availability wasn't that bad to begin with, but it isn't considered that cheap that I can afford to just ignore the straight Standard Disclaimer either.
Card's not currently legal, so I'd say "no" is the right answer here.
Lol, I kid. I know you'd never give an answer that could be mistaken as a hint of the future. It's not getting unbanned any time soon, so my money is safe in my pocket. Besides, I already have my copy for cube as it is.
Serious question though, have you or any other committee member considered doing your Kokusho/Hulk test with Karakas?
Card's not currently legal, so I'd say "no" is the right answer here.
Lol, I kid. I know you'd never give an answer that could be mistaken as a hint of the future. It's not getting unbanned any time soon, so my money is safe in my pocket. Besides, I already have my copy for cube as it is.
Serious question though, have you or any other committee member considered doing your Kokusho/Hulk test with Karakas?
No, we as a group haven't even brought up the card in a long time, unless you consider Toby (with Scott sitting next to him) this past Sunday asking me what the hell I was thinking about posting a Karakas discussion.
No, we as a group haven't even brought up the card in a long time, unless you consider Toby (with Scott sitting next to him) this past Sunday asking me what the hell I was thinking about posting a Karakas discussion.
Hahaha. "Sheldon, we've seen you posting on MTGS, and we are questioning your sanity. You've been voted off the RC."
I guess this piques my curiosity of why you brought up this thought exercise if the entirety of the RC is "lolnope" to the card.
Karakas won't ruin the format, but any white deck is now 98 cards because it's an auto-include. If unbanned, it is the best nonbasic land in this format for any white deck by a large margin. I would unban Library of Alexandria before I unbanned Karakas.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
No way. I initially thought of giving it a chance since it may change some playing habits. Some change is always good, but I feel this is too big of a change. Not only will Karakas increase in demand, so will land destruction lands and those that copy it. So will the legends that play well with it.
While people can possibly adapt to some bouncing every turn, time walking someone (yes because it constraints the player's turn and mana resource to cast his card) every turn at the cost of one land is quite a miserable experience.
The final nail to the coffin for me is abusing Karakas with the Eldrazi Titans. That's when I didn't need to further elaborate my inner "pros and cons" evaluation of the card... Can you imagine Mindslavering your opponents every turn?
Ruins of Karakas would be pretty powerful as a way to protect your commander from shut-down effects and avoid commander tax, and it would obviously be pretty messed up with some generals with powerful ETB effects (Zegana? Maelstrom Wanderer??), but yeah, I'd much rather have that in the game than the actual Karakas.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Furthermore, we have a few cycles of cards that dodge Karakas; planeswalker commanders, undevoted gods, even partners.
You actually have to draw and play LoA, and then it only works if you only have 7 cards in hand, doesn't seem like it would be a big problem. {/sarcasm}
Yeah, at first I was leaning toward giving it a chance despite how oppressive it could be, but now I've gone the other way. The fact that it can easily be oppressive to fair strategies is enough given how ubiquitous it will be, but that it also has plenty of ways to let you abuse your own commanders more makes it even worse, because even if you run into a group of all hexproof it will still save your commander or bounce it for profit.
The fact that so many pro Karakas posters keep suggesting running non interactive commanders (shroud and hexproof) as a viable answer to Karakas is evidence that unbanning Karakas would push such commanders to an even greater extent, resulting in a skewed meta game favoring shroud and hexproof commanders. This is the sort of thing that snowballs, btw, as members of a playgroup switch to non interactive commanders to avoid getting shut down by Karakas, whoever doesn't switch becomes the target, and ends up being the only person at the table who can't play their commander because they are the only one that can be targeted by Karakas. This would be an incredibly limiting meta game shift, even more extreme than saying that garbage like Sowing Salt would be a reasonable inclusion in a deck as an answer to Karakas.
And most posts, including my own, have assumed only one player is trotting out Karakas. There could easily be multiple Karakases (Karaki?) on the board at the same time, making the game miserable. And in Commander, we've long known that the singleton rule does jack to prevent you from getting a card easily. Karakas would be the go to target for expedition map in every mono white deck, and once you start adding green or black it gets even easier. Its practically a go to target for any early tutor, on par with Sol Ring. If a player at the table has Karakas in their deck, it will more likely than not show up in a game. If multiple players do, its all but certain.
Valakut is the sort of card that can get you value if you draw it, but isn't strong enough in the format to work to get on the field. Karakas is the sort of card you will find yourself actively searching for, because its impact is immediate and the value it generates its leagues beyond Valakut in most decks.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Actually assuming Ruins of Karakas still has a W color identity, the number of generals that can abuse it would drop drastically. But then again I remember there's Narset, so yeah, I don't think I also want to see Ruins of Karakas.
This thread makes me nervous because Sheldon started it. He did put the Standard Disclaimer, but that disclaimer works both ways and but becomes especially potent the other way because Karakas was just in EMA so I'll be kicking myself if it unbanned-spike because its availability wasn't that bad to begin with, but it isn't considered that cheap that I can afford to just ignore the straight Standard Disclaimer either.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Don't run out and buy a bunch hoping to cash in.
Should we run out and buy a bunch for all our white decks?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Card's not currently legal, so I'd say "no" is the right answer here.
Lol, I kid. I know you'd never give an answer that could be mistaken as a hint of the future. It's not getting unbanned any time soon, so my money is safe in my pocket. Besides, I already have my copy for cube as it is.
Serious question though, have you or any other committee member considered doing your Kokusho/Hulk test with Karakas?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
No, we as a group haven't even brought up the card in a long time, unless you consider Toby (with Scott sitting next to him) this past Sunday asking me what the hell I was thinking about posting a Karakas discussion.
Hahaha. "Sheldon, we've seen you posting on MTGS, and we are questioning your sanity. You've been voted off the RC."
I guess this piques my curiosity of why you brought up this thought exercise if the entirety of the RC is "lolnope" to the card.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
While people can possibly adapt to some bouncing every turn, time walking someone (yes because it constraints the player's turn and mana resource to cast his card) every turn at the cost of one land is quite a miserable experience.
The final nail to the coffin for me is abusing Karakas with the Eldrazi Titans. That's when I didn't need to further elaborate my inner "pros and cons" evaluation of the card... Can you imagine Mindslavering your opponents every turn?
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG