I'm honestly surprised that he was banned this go around. I would have expected you guys to discuss him and then take action next time.
I'll echo that sentiment. I thought when you said "next meeting" it'd be somewhere soon and then the results of that evident next ban-list go around, not...well, now.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Conspiracy 2 came out at the end of August last year. Half a year of discussion and community feedback wasn't enough information to discuss and come to a conclusion at the last meeting? What was another three months going to tell them that wasn't apparent already?
Remember that we're relatively conservative when it comes to making moves. We'd rather wait too long than not long enough.
Right, I understand. To be clear I wasn't lambasting you guys for not banning him sooner, but more commentating on the reaction of responses above that were surprised you hadn't waited longer. Apologies if I wasn't clear on the intent of my reply here.
Sure, people still try to kill my Leovold, but it's not because I'm oppressing them with my deck; it's because they want to draw a bunch of cards.
My deck used to be Damia, just because she was a BUG legend that offered card advantage. I swapped her out for Leovold (and added in the symmetrical draw/Leo trigger synergies) because he was actually affordable to cast, and having him die once isn't completely back-breaking like it is for a Damia player who has pitched their hand hoping to draw 7 next turn.
It was a durdly morph deck, because BUG has the best morphs. I'm sorely tempted to reimagine my deck as Flash-Hulk combo now, out of spite.
Sure, people still try to kill my Leovold, but it's not because I'm oppressing them with my deck; it's because they want to draw a bunch of cards.
My deck used to be Damia, just because she was a BUG legend that offered card advantage. I swapped her out for Leovold (and added in the symmetrical draw/Leo trigger synergies) because he was actually affordable to cast, and having him die once isn't completely back-breaking like it is for a Damia player who has pitched their hand hoping to draw 7 next turn.
It was a durdly morph deck, because BUG has the best morphs. I'm sorely tempted to reimagine my deck as Flash-Hulk combo now, out of spite.
So, wait, you're upset* at the fact that players tried to kill Leoveld because they wanted to draw a bunch of cards, and don't see the problem with you being the only one drawing additional cards? The biggest gripe I had about Leoveld was the fact that from turn 2, that player just buried the table in CA. It wasn't the wheel-locks, albeit just as troublesome, it was the fact that if you aren't already playing U or G, you basically needed a perfect start to keep pace, and even then it was a toss-up.
There was a group of roughly 10-12 peeps I played with, with one Leoveld player. He warped our group so significantly, not a single player ran Boros colors, Rakdos, Orzhov, Marci mono-Red, Mono-Black, well, you get the picture. It drove all of those decks out of the meta because they just couldn't keep up. This also wasn't a high-powered group. The Leo player grabbed his in a Conspiracy draft and his deck was pretty limited in terms of available card pool. Turning cards like Vision Skeins into Ancestral Recall(obviously not, but no other draw 2 for instant speed 2 exists, for obvious reasons...)ugh, it was just freaking efficient. The worst part was that Laboratory Maniac was a win condition and he'd get that by just drawing cards off like the aforementioned Vision Skeins and countering spells with Dream Fracture etc. No tutors, he had Windfall and Dark Deal for wheels, no efficient infinite enablers, and the rest was mostly bulk rares/draft chaff and he normally just won via damage. Don't get me wrong, he was a skilled player, so I'd say he overwhelmed half the group with just his skill, but still, I'd say I'm a well above average deck-builder, and I got over the hump once with Alesha deck loaded to the brim with Mardu goodies.
TL;DR- I will not shed one tear that he is banned. He was groan inducing from the first time players flip their commanders, and it was a battle to just stay invested in the game because of how ridiculous he is. However, I think he would be totally safe in the 99, here's a little more in favor of returning the BaaC list.
So, wait, you're upset* at the fact that players tried to kill Leoveld because they wanted to draw a bunch of cards, and don't see the problem with you being the only one drawing additional cards?
No, I'm not upset people tried to kill my Leovold, and they weren't upset he was in play. My opponents killed my commander because they wanted to be as greedy as I was being, not because they had a problem with me being greedy.
No, I'm not upset people tried to kill my Leovold, and they weren't upset he was in play. My opponents killed my commander because they wanted to be as greedy as I was being, not because they had a problem with me being greedy.
To be fair though, Leovold himself is so greedy that his protection involves drawing cards as well, so assuming they know you have multiple symmetrical draw outlets, it will ultimately be the same whether they remove Leovold or them (well there's the off-chance you don't draw into another one, but considering removing Howling Mine with some targeted removal still nets you a card, I don't see people taking chances), you'll pretty much have the same card advantage when it comes to removal, so why deprive themselves of their chances to catch up?
If they don't know what your deck is, then they're running on "Maybe you're running Wheels Combo" logic and that isn't much better.
I don't see it as people being greedy validating Leovold as fair in any way - I see it as Leovold being so greedy that his protection is also part of that deal and as a result, he more or less forces opponents to be greedy as well. I'm not denying that most players are actually more or less naturally greedy, looking at how traditional grouphug decks games usually turn out with regards to card draw, but for Leovold in particular, he provides insurmountable card advantage on his controller's side, unless someone has the perfect counter-hand, being greedy themselves is pretty much the only way to ensure you can survive that onslaught of card advantage the Leovold player is getting regardless.
Remember that we're relatively conservative when it comes to making moves. We'd rather wait too long than not long enough.
Right, I understand. To be clear I wasn't lambasting you guys for not banning him sooner, but more commentating on the reaction of responses above that were surprised you hadn't waited longer. Apologies if I wasn't clear on the intent of my reply here.
That surprise comes mostly from an earlier comment of Sheldon made right before the weekend, where he stated Leovold would be talked about "in the next meeting". This was taken to mean "Yeah we got him on the radar and we'll talk about him soon." not as "We're banhammering him in 3 days from now." if that clears things further up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Remember that we're relatively conservative when it comes to making moves. We'd rather wait too long than not long enough.
Right, I understand. To be clear I wasn't lambasting you guys for not banning him sooner, but more commentating on the reaction of responses above that were surprised you hadn't waited longer. Apologies if I wasn't clear on the intent of my reply here.
That surprise comes mostly from an earlier comment of Sheldon made right before the weekend, where he stated Leovold would be talked about "in the next meeting". This was taken to mean "Yeah we got him on the radar and we'll talk about him soon." not as "We're banhammering him in 3 days from now." if that clears things further up.
I already knew we were meeting relatively late in the cycle--we normally meet several weeks earlier--and knew that he was on the docket. I honestly didn't know going in which way it was going to go, evidenced by the fact I drafted him with a late pick in our Rotisserie Draft, just in case. I suspected it was going to end up the way it did, but thought it was more of a lean than the sort of strong collective stance it turned out to be.
If they don't know what your deck is, then they're running on "Maybe you're running Wheels Combo" logic and that isn't much better.
The people I play with were, by and large, aware that it was a morph deck with no wheels. People who are not aware learn quickly, since the majority of the creatures in the deck were morphs.
If they don't know what your deck is, then they're running on "Maybe you're running Wheels Combo" logic and that isn't much better.
The people I play with were, by and large, aware that it was a morph deck with no wheels. People who are not aware learn quickly, since the majority of the creatures in the deck were morphs.
So talk with your group to let you use your Leovold morph deck.
These arguments seems clsoe to every card banend where peopel tried to argue that they aren't using it in opressive ways and stuff. The rality is that Leovold is miserable to play aagisnt in normal circurstances.
If they don't know what your deck is, then they're running on "Maybe you're running Wheels Combo" logic and that isn't much better.
The people I play with were, by and large, aware that it was a morph deck with no wheels. People who are not aware learn quickly, since the majority of the creatures in the deck were morphs.
So talk with your group to let you use your Leovold morph deck.
These arguments seems clsoe to every card banend where peopel tried to argue that they aren't using it in opressive ways and stuff. The rality is that Leovold is miserable to play aagisnt in normal circurstances.
Agreed. If your group can handle it, after a short conversation, there should be no reason they won't let you play it.
I never could understand the reverse logic that is always brought up in SCD's when somebody suggests a card be banned, just for a vocal minority to tell them to bring it up with their group. There's what, ~50 cards on the current list? If somebody suggests playing a banned card, the worst that will happen is a conversation about ~49 other cards being allowed. Conversely, try discussing with your group about a house ban. Player A. hates T&N, player B. hates Cyclonic Rift, Player C. hates Craterhoof. The discussion is nearly endless, as everybody will have a card they'd like to see banned, there is at least a cap to the amount of cards being discussed to house unban.
The above illustrates why I believe a format with a philopshy that promotes social dynamics should be a little more aggressive in terms of banning problematic cards. I'll gladly sit down at a table and field the 10-12 questions about players playing a banned card, rather than sit down and deliberate for an hour about unbanned cards that players XYZ don't want to see pop up at the table.
If they don't know what your deck is, then they're running on "Maybe you're running Wheels Combo" logic and that isn't much better.
The people I play with were, by and large, aware that it was a morph deck with no wheels. People who are not aware learn quickly, since the majority of the creatures in the deck were morphs.
So talk with your group to let you use your Leovold morph deck.
These arguments seems clsoe to every card banend where peopel tried to argue that they aren't using it in opressive ways and stuff. The rality is that Leovold is miserable to play aagisnt in normal circurstances.
I've already had one guy tell me he'd be okay with me continuing to play my deck. However, as I've already stated, I understand why Leovold was banned (I'm just displeased with it). Also, I'm not okay with continuing to run him as my general.
Before moving out to California, I ran an EDH league for 5 years in Texas, and our games were DCI sanctioned. We stuck to the official banlist, and I don't plan to change that behavior.
Given that Leovold is in the best colors for tutors and draw, having it as one of the 99 might very easily be no different from having it in the command zone. Add in ramp, and kaboom! Exiling him could even be problematic, as you always stand a good chance of drawing an answer, particularly if you manipulate your top-deck(and if you don't, you're not really playing Leo right).
I do not believe that difficulties in coding for MTGO were the reason for the change...I believe the RC when they said it was too damned oppressive. One wheel effect, and you're the only one doing anything, let alone having fun. Kudos to you for not playing wheel effects, but it's really written all over Leovold's smug face, let alone the rule text; "Oh, you think you're going to have fun? That's cute."
Would errata'ing his first lines of text to "If an effect an opponent controls would cause them to draw a card beyond the first one he or she has drawn this turn, that opponent skips that draw instead" fix him? It would eliminate the bs wheel package and turn him into a pure hate bear, as opponents would still draw cards off of your effects.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I'll echo that sentiment. I thought when you said "next meeting" it'd be somewhere soon and then the results of that evident next ban-list go around, not...well, now.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Right, I understand. To be clear I wasn't lambasting you guys for not banning him sooner, but more commentating on the reaction of responses above that were surprised you hadn't waited longer. Apologies if I wasn't clear on the intent of my reply here.
(Also known as Xenphire)
I built a no-wheel version of leovold and pretty much took the whole deck apart the very same day I built it.
He's really not fun for people.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Covert it to Nekusar, the mindrazer.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
My own Leovold deck runs Howling Mine, Font of Mythos, Rites of Flourishing, Kami of the Crescent Moon, Dictate of Kruphix, and Mikokoro, Center of the Sea for symmetrical draw. Memory Jar/Magus of the Jar are "wheels" that aren't oppressive with Leo (they don't get to draw 7, but they also get their hands back at EOT). And Spellskite, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, Willbender, and Rayne, Academy Chancellor (+auras) to synergize with (or double up on) his triggered ability.
Sure, people still try to kill my Leovold, but it's not because I'm oppressing them with my deck; it's because they want to draw a bunch of cards.
My deck used to be Damia, just because she was a BUG legend that offered card advantage. I swapped her out for Leovold (and added in the symmetrical draw/Leo trigger synergies) because he was actually affordable to cast, and having him die once isn't completely back-breaking like it is for a Damia player who has pitched their hand hoping to draw 7 next turn.
It was a durdly morph deck, because BUG has the best morphs. I'm sorely tempted to reimagine my deck as Flash-Hulk combo now, out of spite.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
So, wait, you're upset* at the fact that players tried to kill Leoveld because they wanted to draw a bunch of cards, and don't see the problem with you being the only one drawing additional cards? The biggest gripe I had about Leoveld was the fact that from turn 2, that player just buried the table in CA. It wasn't the wheel-locks, albeit just as troublesome, it was the fact that if you aren't already playing U or G, you basically needed a perfect start to keep pace, and even then it was a toss-up.
There was a group of roughly 10-12 peeps I played with, with one Leoveld player. He warped our group so significantly, not a single player ran Boros colors, Rakdos, Orzhov, Marci mono-Red, Mono-Black, well, you get the picture. It drove all of those decks out of the meta because they just couldn't keep up. This also wasn't a high-powered group. The Leo player grabbed his in a Conspiracy draft and his deck was pretty limited in terms of available card pool. Turning cards like Vision Skeins into Ancestral Recall(obviously not, but no other draw 2 for instant speed 2 exists, for obvious reasons...)ugh, it was just freaking efficient. The worst part was that Laboratory Maniac was a win condition and he'd get that by just drawing cards off like the aforementioned Vision Skeins and countering spells with Dream Fracture etc. No tutors, he had Windfall and Dark Deal for wheels, no efficient infinite enablers, and the rest was mostly bulk rares/draft chaff and he normally just won via damage. Don't get me wrong, he was a skilled player, so I'd say he overwhelmed half the group with just his skill, but still, I'd say I'm a well above average deck-builder, and I got over the hump once with Alesha deck loaded to the brim with Mardu goodies.
TL;DR- I will not shed one tear that he is banned. He was groan inducing from the first time players flip their commanders, and it was a battle to just stay invested in the game because of how ridiculous he is. However, I think he would be totally safe in the 99, here's a little more in favor of returning the BaaC list.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
To be fair though, Leovold himself is so greedy that his protection involves drawing cards as well, so assuming they know you have multiple symmetrical draw outlets, it will ultimately be the same whether they remove Leovold or them (well there's the off-chance you don't draw into another one, but considering removing Howling Mine with some targeted removal still nets you a card, I don't see people taking chances), you'll pretty much have the same card advantage when it comes to removal, so why deprive themselves of their chances to catch up?
If they don't know what your deck is, then they're running on "Maybe you're running Wheels Combo" logic and that isn't much better.
I don't see it as people being greedy validating Leovold as fair in any way - I see it as Leovold being so greedy that his protection is also part of that deal and as a result, he more or less forces opponents to be greedy as well. I'm not denying that most players are actually more or less naturally greedy, looking at how traditional grouphug decks games usually turn out with regards to card draw, but for Leovold in particular, he provides insurmountable card advantage on his controller's side, unless someone has the perfect counter-hand, being greedy themselves is pretty much the only way to ensure you can survive that onslaught of card advantage the Leovold player is getting regardless.
That surprise comes mostly from an earlier comment of Sheldon made right before the weekend, where he stated Leovold would be talked about "in the next meeting". This was taken to mean "Yeah we got him on the radar and we'll talk about him soon." not as "We're banhammering him in 3 days from now." if that clears things further up.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I already knew we were meeting relatively late in the cycle--we normally meet several weeks earlier--and knew that he was on the docket. I honestly didn't know going in which way it was going to go, evidenced by the fact I drafted him with a late pick in our Rotisserie Draft, just in case. I suspected it was going to end up the way it did, but thought it was more of a lean than the sort of strong collective stance it turned out to be.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
So talk with your group to let you use your Leovold morph deck.
These arguments seems clsoe to every card banend where peopel tried to argue that they aren't using it in opressive ways and stuff. The rality is that Leovold is miserable to play aagisnt in normal circurstances.
Agreed. If your group can handle it, after a short conversation, there should be no reason they won't let you play it.
I never could understand the reverse logic that is always brought up in SCD's when somebody suggests a card be banned, just for a vocal minority to tell them to bring it up with their group. There's what, ~50 cards on the current list? If somebody suggests playing a banned card, the worst that will happen is a conversation about ~49 other cards being allowed. Conversely, try discussing with your group about a house ban. Player A. hates T&N, player B. hates Cyclonic Rift, Player C. hates Craterhoof. The discussion is nearly endless, as everybody will have a card they'd like to see banned, there is at least a cap to the amount of cards being discussed to house unban.
The above illustrates why I believe a format with a philopshy that promotes social dynamics should be a little more aggressive in terms of banning problematic cards. I'll gladly sit down at a table and field the 10-12 questions about players playing a banned card, rather than sit down and deliberate for an hour about unbanned cards that players XYZ don't want to see pop up at the table.
Before moving out to California, I ran an EDH league for 5 years in Texas, and our games were DCI sanctioned. We stuck to the official banlist, and I don't plan to change that behavior.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I do not believe that difficulties in coding for MTGO were the reason for the change...I believe the RC when they said it was too damned oppressive. One wheel effect, and you're the only one doing anything, let alone having fun. Kudos to you for not playing wheel effects, but it's really written all over Leovold's smug face, let alone the rule text; "Oh, you think you're going to have fun? That's cute."
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)