Good points, and he might be worth banning, I'm just trying to find a balance between playing Leovold and having synergy with the general, and not making people sick. It's important to me when I play a deck that someone can't just look at the deck and say "well why aren't you running this same color general instead with the same deck?" with no answer from me. Maybe I cut windfall and run just howling mine and stuff like that. But the deck gonna be bad.
Good points, and he might be worth banning, I'm just trying to find a balance between playing Leovold and having synergy with the general, and not making people sick. It's important to me when I play a deck that someone can't just look at the deck and say "well why aren't you running this same color general instead with the same deck?" with no answer from me. Maybe I cut windfall and run just howling mine and stuff like that. But the deck gonna be bad.
That's part of the problem. Due to Leovold's design, the very things that make him good for someone to play (as a general or as one of the 99) are the same things that make him miserable for everyone else to play against. There's no reason to play him if he won't be good, but this means if he's played, he will almost inevitibly be played with the cards that make him good - wheels, windfall, etc - and that will be miserable for everyone. Which is what LouCypher has already noted.
Personally, after numerous experiences of seeing him in play, I don't think Leovold has any place in less competitive games, and is in fact fairly poisonous for such games, and I'd thus like to see him banned.
I play against two different Leovold decks One that is focused on landing him and wheeling or other combos in that color and one playing Sultai Lands and he didn't like the other options enough for the deck. I think Leovold is healthy for the format because he really teaches and stresses the need for answers to problems, and he showcases the power and emphasis that is on drawing cards in decks.
He is in many ways the new Prophet of Kruphix however thankfully his colors and price are keeping him from ubiquity which will probably keep him from being banned.
I play against two different Leovold decks One that is focused on landing him and wheeling or other combos in that color and one playing Sultai Lands and he didn't like the other options enough for the deck. I think Leovold is healthy for the format because he really teaches and stresses the need for answers to problems, and he showcases the power and emphasis that is on drawing cards in decks.
He is in many ways the new Prophet of Kruphix however thankfully his colors and price are keeping him from ubiquity which will probably keep him from being banned.
Do you really enjoy playing the game where a 3 land hand + mana rock is unkeepable because it doesn't have removal to stop a T2 Leovold T3 wheel?
I once saw a Leovold on Cockatrice that was janky as hell, essentially elf tribal or something. Just used the commander as a hatebear and a value piece. But that doesn't mean anything, any commander can be built janky. A friend pieced together a Marchesa, the Black Rose arcbound tribal with Extruder in there. Does that reflect what Marchesa is capable of, and what your average player will do with her? No. Not in the slightest. Similar situation here.
Also, you stress the need for answers, and then contradict yourself by implying that you'd have kept a hand with no fast Leovold answer. Or maybe I'm just misreading you.
Also, you stress the need for answers, and then contradict yourself by implying that you'd have kept a hand with no fast Leovold answer. Or maybe I'm just misreading you.
It isn't contradicting myself to not always have exactly the card when I need it in a 100 card singleton format. That is also true for every other deck around the table including the Leovold deck. Saying something is a good reason to run answers in a deck and is not too oppressive if people are taking precautions is not a guarantee those will always pay off because the amount of randomness that goes into Magic as a game especially in multiplayer.
Online, I've seen him head up wheels about half the time he's the commander, some sort of elf tribal of varying levels of jank about 30-40% of the time, and some sort of weird build 10-20% (Wheels without wheels being the main, meaning instead of wheels they run symmetrical draw like mine and dictate of kruphix, which is strong but fun). Wheels is utterly unfun to play against, especially 1v1 as you can't all just play archenemy. Additionally, 4 color Ydris wheels tutoring Leovold is just as bad. Wheels without Wheels is OK, but its nothing special either and won't be missed if Leovold is banned. Sultai elves is a little better because there are some nice Simic elves, and I've enjoyed playing against it, but its loss wouldn't be significant compared to getting rid of Wheels. I'd like to see him gone at this point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Sheldon always advocates to play decks that create the games that people will remember, not those people want to forget. I wish I could forget every game Ive had to play against a Leovold deck. His presence on the battlefield warps games to the same degree that Prophet of Kruphix did imo, and I think that is one of the biggest arguments in favor of banning him.
Memorable decks to me are ones that provide real challenge, so I guess we just have different definitions.
Depends on what you mean, it could be a challenge for you, or it could be presenting a challenge for the opponent. A leovold deck that focuses on making saprolings is playing on Hard Mode.
Memorable decks to me are ones that provide real challenge, so I guess we just have different definitions.
Turn 3:
"hey do you have a removal spell?"
"No"
"Discard your hand"
At what point did you get to use your playskill? Where is the challenge?
It's like calling vintage shops a challenging deck, where they play cards that make all your spells cost more so you never ever get to make a meaningful decision starting from the first turn.
Maybe if you stopped thinking entirely in the realms of fantasy and goldfishing you would understand exactly why people don't have a problem with that. However I find that really unlikely.
Maybe if you stopped thinking entirely in the realms of fantasy and goldfishing you would understand exactly why people don't have a problem with that. However I find that really unlikely.
So how exactly is it "fantasy" and "goldfishing" to try and play against a Leovold-Teferi's Puzzle Box combo? Or even against something as simple as Leovold-Windfall? Neither of those two combos promote actual interactivity, they simply promote topdecking hail mary's in the hopes of winning. And even if you DO topdeck a possible out, you have to hope the Leovold player - who is likely holding a full grip to your empty one - to not have an answer to it. And even beyond THAT, if your answer is to Leovold himself it won't last long and the Leovold player recoups his card,
How is that "interesting" or "memorable" in any way or form?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Being Under That is different from
Resolving That is different from
Having all the cards to make that work that early
I run decks in which if I draw great hands can go off just as fast if not faster, I am also well aware that it will not always happen as am I aware of what the Leovold on the otherside of the table can do and am aware of what the Narset or the Blank or the Blank can do.
There is a really good tension in those games, that sometimes explode and end and sometimes people have answers for and sometimes neither happens.
I don't focus on any one time because it is a small individual event in the whole of the games I play with that person and that deck, because a deck can be that fast is not a valid reason to condemn it as non-interactive or not fun to play against.
Now if you'd read my large essay earlier in the thread you'd see the real issue; that of casual players who look at Leovold + Wheels and think "Hey, that looks good." and proceed to ruin games. It's trivially easy for Leovold to clamp down a table by turn 4 - not a single general does it THAT efficiently - and that isn't exactly where Commander wants to be.
I also love how you say "Having all the cards". You mean 1 manadork and 1 Teferis puzzle box to get the T3 lock is SOOOO hard? In casual metas it won't happen that often but even there you have to contend with Windfall, Whispering Madness and other stuff like that. In faster metas? Tutors. Tutors everywhere.
So again I ask you. How does it make a game interesting when you get forced into topdeck mode and all your cards that MIGHT help you dig for more answers are auto-countered? What does Leovold add to the format compared to all that it takes away?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I think Leovold adds a lot of to the format it is just people are narrowly looking at him through the prism of wheel effects because that is easy and obvious when you take one looking at the card.
He is a cheap costed created with a body to match that nets you cards for your opponents removing things on your board and slows down their draw, that is useful in a lot of decks of those colors I play against as I said earlier two Leovold decks
1. Everything you'd expect wheels, puzzleboxes, mana dorks and even Demonic Consultation + Lab Man + Remand backup and ***** like that.
2. Is a Sultai lands deck that was playing Tasigur that didn't like paying for tasigur more than once because the exile was impacting cards as good as tasigur's built in ability is, so as a Deck that is not playing Creatures, doesn't want to use Partner because it is two cards and thinks Damia costs way too much mana for what the deck does Leovold is the obvious choice and the only one remaining.
Both decks win just as much as the other and just as much as the other decks I play with, maybe I just have a magical meta I am not sure but as often as Leovold can lock people into pretzels so can any other deck trying to do that, and sometimes the blistering aggro pace of the recent Saskia deck to the meta helps with that. There is a lot of disruption and a lot of interaction and it is the most fun I have playing Magic and Leovold doesn't impede with that at all.
I also think in your more casual group example that is generally going to be a case when that happens once or twice and then I bet if the people playing those games don't like it they will let that person know and I think that is where the social aspects of this format take over, I am not sure because I don't really play in a group like that.
The majority of Leovold decks I see and hear about are pretty oppressive, and it seems rather easy to turn Leovold games into those you'd like to forget. I've built a version that doesn't have any wheels--the worst it has is Horn of Green and Temple Bell. It's otherwise just a solid value deck, but I get that my build is the exception and wouldn't use it as support for thinking the card is fine. I've already promised that it's a card we'll talk about when next we meet.
The majority of Leovold decks I see and hear about are pretty oppressive, and it seems rather easy to turn Leovold games into those you'd like to forget. I've built a version that doesn't have any wheels--the worst it has is Horn of Green and Temple Bell. It's otherwise just a solid value deck, but I get that my build is the exception and wouldn't use it as support for thinking the card is fine. I've already promised that it's a card we'll talk about when next we meet.
I'm very glad to hear this.
I know that I haven't participated in the thread up to this point, but Leovold is a card I've always believed deserves a stern look and that it would only be a matter of time before some action (or inaction) was taken regarding the card. A confirmation of such event is welcome news.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Leovold is like a walking posterchild for why banned-as-a-commander is such a good idea. He's a perfectly reasonable card, but not in the command zone. Compares very strongly to Rofellos.
I do take it this means we're not seeing a change in Leovold's status this banlist update, and any news is at the earliest in the summer, right?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
That's part of the problem. Due to Leovold's design, the very things that make him good for someone to play (as a general or as one of the 99) are the same things that make him miserable for everyone else to play against. There's no reason to play him if he won't be good, but this means if he's played, he will almost inevitibly be played with the cards that make him good - wheels, windfall, etc - and that will be miserable for everyone. Which is what LouCypher has already noted.
Personally, after numerous experiences of seeing him in play, I don't think Leovold has any place in less competitive games, and is in fact fairly poisonous for such games, and I'd thus like to see him banned.
He is in many ways the new Prophet of Kruphix however thankfully his colors and price are keeping him from ubiquity which will probably keep him from being banned.
Do you really enjoy playing the game where a 3 land hand + mana rock is unkeepable because it doesn't have removal to stop a T2 Leovold T3 wheel?
Also, you stress the need for answers, and then contradict yourself by implying that you'd have kept a hand with no fast Leovold answer. Or maybe I'm just misreading you.
It isn't contradicting myself to not always have exactly the card when I need it in a 100 card singleton format. That is also true for every other deck around the table including the Leovold deck. Saying something is a good reason to run answers in a deck and is not too oppressive if people are taking precautions is not a guarantee those will always pay off because the amount of randomness that goes into Magic as a game especially in multiplayer.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
Depends on what you mean, it could be a challenge for you, or it could be presenting a challenge for the opponent. A leovold deck that focuses on making saprolings is playing on Hard Mode.
Turn 3:
"hey do you have a removal spell?"
"No"
"Discard your hand"
At what point did you get to use your playskill? Where is the challenge?
It's like calling vintage shops a challenging deck, where they play cards that make all your spells cost more so you never ever get to make a meaningful decision starting from the first turn.
So how exactly is it "fantasy" and "goldfishing" to try and play against a Leovold-Teferi's Puzzle Box combo? Or even against something as simple as Leovold-Windfall? Neither of those two combos promote actual interactivity, they simply promote topdecking hail mary's in the hopes of winning. And even if you DO topdeck a possible out, you have to hope the Leovold player - who is likely holding a full grip to your empty one - to not have an answer to it. And even beyond THAT, if your answer is to Leovold himself it won't last long and the Leovold player recoups his card,
How is that "interesting" or "memorable" in any way or form?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Resolving That is different from
Having all the cards to make that work that early
I run decks in which if I draw great hands can go off just as fast if not faster, I am also well aware that it will not always happen as am I aware of what the Leovold on the otherside of the table can do and am aware of what the Narset or the Blank or the Blank can do.
There is a really good tension in those games, that sometimes explode and end and sometimes people have answers for and sometimes neither happens.
I don't focus on any one time because it is a small individual event in the whole of the games I play with that person and that deck, because a deck can be that fast is not a valid reason to condemn it as non-interactive or not fun to play against.
I also love how you say "Having all the cards". You mean 1 manadork and 1 Teferis puzzle box to get the T3 lock is SOOOO hard? In casual metas it won't happen that often but even there you have to contend with Windfall, Whispering Madness and other stuff like that. In faster metas? Tutors. Tutors everywhere.
So again I ask you. How does it make a game interesting when you get forced into topdeck mode and all your cards that MIGHT help you dig for more answers are auto-countered? What does Leovold add to the format compared to all that it takes away?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
He is a cheap costed created with a body to match that nets you cards for your opponents removing things on your board and slows down their draw, that is useful in a lot of decks of those colors I play against as I said earlier two Leovold decks
1. Everything you'd expect wheels, puzzleboxes, mana dorks and even Demonic Consultation + Lab Man + Remand backup and ***** like that.
2. Is a Sultai lands deck that was playing Tasigur that didn't like paying for tasigur more than once because the exile was impacting cards as good as tasigur's built in ability is, so as a Deck that is not playing Creatures, doesn't want to use Partner because it is two cards and thinks Damia costs way too much mana for what the deck does Leovold is the obvious choice and the only one remaining.
Both decks win just as much as the other and just as much as the other decks I play with, maybe I just have a magical meta I am not sure but as often as Leovold can lock people into pretzels so can any other deck trying to do that, and sometimes the blistering aggro pace of the recent Saskia deck to the meta helps with that. There is a lot of disruption and a lot of interaction and it is the most fun I have playing Magic and Leovold doesn't impede with that at all.
I also think in your more casual group example that is generally going to be a case when that happens once or twice and then I bet if the people playing those games don't like it they will let that person know and I think that is where the social aspects of this format take over, I am not sure because I don't really play in a group like that.
I know that I haven't participated in the thread up to this point, but Leovold is a card I've always believed deserves a stern look and that it would only be a matter of time before some action (or inaction) was taken regarding the card. A confirmation of such event is welcome news.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Leovold is officially banned. And pretty quickly I might add, at what, ~8 months?
I'm totally fine with not playing Staredown: The Gathering.
He's banned in edh now.
In the Brit side protean hulk is unbanned