Leovold, Emissary of Trest . Who else thinks this card is too oppressive? It is even more oppresive than Jhoira of the Ghitu . Jhoira of the Ghitu needs a few turn for the clock to set off where as Leovold just plain wipe off opponent's hand in one fell swoop. Any threats that the opponent may have cast can be dealt with by the Sultai colours. Ugh!
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
He definitely has powerful combos with Wheels, but he doesn't have any protection and thus dies to basically every removal spell ever. And if they hold back mana to counter your removal, they might not be able to wheel that turn. Definitely a strong general but I don't think its oppressive. That being said, I haven't played with or against it so maybe it is actually insane.
He definitely has powerful combos with Wheels, but he doesn't have any protection and thus dies to basically every removal spell ever. And if they hold back mana to counter your removal, they might not be able to wheel that turn. Definitely a strong general but I don't think its oppressive. That being said, I haven't played with or against it so maybe it is actually insane.
I played against it a few times (which is enough!) and it is insane!
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Played against a non-optimized list yesterday and it was still very, very strong. Also had an unfortunate incidental interaction with someone's Anvil of Bogardan.
Sample size of 1, Leovold player lost anyway, ban plx
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Definitely a top tier general but there are others. If a tuned list is going up against casual decks they won't have a good time, but that's true for a bunch of commanders. So extremely strong, yes. Ban worthy, I say no.
I've not played against him but unless the player specifically excludes wheel or discard cards from their deck, I can't see how this guy would be anything less than completely oppressive even in the most casual build.
Will it be banned? I don't know. I know that it certainly deserves to be considered but I wouldn't snap ban it.
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If his cmc was 5 or something like that it would be easier to make an argument for keeping him around. As is he seems like a card that everyone will ***** about until he gets the hammer.
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Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Doesn't fit the criteria of what the RC usually ban:
-causes the game to devolve into non stop battle over controlling the creature (ala Prime Titan, Griselbrand)
-truly difficult to interact with (like Recurring Nightmare)
-causes accidental unfun times (such as Painter's Servant)
-generates or denies an absurd amount of resources all by itself (again like Griselbrand, Limited Resources, Erayo)
Plus, you also have the fact that the RC usually doesn't ban cards that are being abused in a competitive nature. Their way of looking it will always be to build to what your meta thinks is fun, let them police themselves and if you don't have a regular group of people you play with well screw you.
Do I think he's oppressive? Not more so than all the other U/X generals.
Edit: I did say usually. Before anyone points to the list and finds something that contradicts the points I raised, please note I said usually.
I don't know if Leovold should be banned, since I am generally opposed to banning cards except for really good reasons, but looking at the RC's past moves:
An untuned Braids deck also never did anything particularly oppressive but was still banned.
Look with access to black and blue you ha e tutors. Red has the wheels and blue cantutor for puzzle box and win. It is too powerful.
Connecting the ability to tutor to too powerful leads to many possible bans.
I agree he can be oppressive and is definitely on the high list of powerful commanders that are not banned either. If he gets banned or not is subjective to the whims of the RC, so we'll have to see how they look at the card in the long run.
While I agree that Leovold is a powerful general, judging by the fact that neither Arcum Dagsson, Zur the Enchanter, nor Narset, Enlightened Master are banned means that Mr. No-Fun Elf will probably not get banned either. Those other generals are even less interactive and equally if not more powerful. I assume Leovold has a hard time dealing with the whole table ganging up on him, while those other three embrace Archenemy status openly and still come out ahead.
He's strong, but the problem when banning something is more to the casual, and even a casual Leovold can hit extremely hard the table and make an unfun game. Getting wheeled on the Turn 3 leads to everyone without resources... Doesn't look the type of general made for a fun format like commander. That's the same reason Erayo, Emrahkul and Braids were banned. Braids is not a strong general, neither for 1v1 or for multiplayer, she is banned on multiplayer because she can cause some extremely unfun interactions with the table stripping resources slowly from the most casual decks. Imagine a Braids T2 against those really slow casual decks?
For me that is the same with Leovold, good decks can deal with it, but commander is made for both the casual and the competitive, and I think it can hurt a lot of casual players making some extremely unfun interactions. Its not just because of the power, but the spirit of the format, infinite combos can be considered bad yeah, but keeping a player in the game like a zombie looks just worse..
It's really easy for anybody, even people in low powerlevel playgroups, to just add a bunch of wheel effects while building a Leovold deck "because that looks like a strong synergy" and regularly enter into "deal with this guy turn 3 or lose instantly" situations.
So basically it boils down to: How often do players end up accidentally destroying everybody's fun? The accessibility bar here is really, really low so it's conceivable that this could be a fairly common occurrence among playgroups. The kind of stress he brings into playgroups that don't want to go into hyper-cheap removal mode could be cause for the RC to look into it, though admittedly he isn't really analogous to any other banned card with the exception of maybe Braids or Erayo, but both of them are singular in their purposes while Leovold could be built to accommodate a variety of metagames.
As I said on the official forums in the linked thread, Leovold is one of those generals you build to the generic stereotype and either grow bored with it or get hated out. There's only so many times you can T2 Leovold T3 wheel before someone gets sick of the deck.
My opinion of Leovold is we already have Jhoira of the Ghitu usually making Chaos Emporer Dragon - Envoy of the End happen so I don't see why we can't have someone that usually makes Yata-Garasu happen
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Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
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This.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
I played against it a few times (which is enough!) and it is insane!
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Sample size of 1, Leovold player lost anyway, ban plx
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Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Will it be banned? I don't know. I know that it certainly deserves to be considered but I wouldn't snap ban it.
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Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
-causes the game to devolve into non stop battle over controlling the creature (ala Prime Titan, Griselbrand)
-truly difficult to interact with (like Recurring Nightmare)
-causes accidental unfun times (such as Painter's Servant)
-generates or denies an absurd amount of resources all by itself (again like Griselbrand, Limited Resources, Erayo)
Plus, you also have the fact that the RC usually doesn't ban cards that are being abused in a competitive nature. Their way of looking it will always be to build to what your meta thinks is fun, let them police themselves and if you don't have a regular group of people you play with well screw you.
Do I think he's oppressive? Not more so than all the other U/X generals.
Edit: I did say usually. Before anyone points to the list and finds something that contradicts the points I raised, please note I said usually.
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That being said, the RC isn't interested in consistency so he might skate by just based on that.
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GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
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An untuned Braids deck also never did anything particularly oppressive but was still banned.
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I agree he can be oppressive and is definitely on the high list of powerful commanders that are not banned either. If he gets banned or not is subjective to the whims of the RC, so we'll have to see how they look at the card in the long run.
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For me that is the same with Leovold, good decks can deal with it, but commander is made for both the casual and the competitive, and I think it can hurt a lot of casual players making some extremely unfun interactions. Its not just because of the power, but the spirit of the format, infinite combos can be considered bad yeah, but keeping a player in the game like a zombie looks just worse..
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It's really easy for anybody, even people in low powerlevel playgroups, to just add a bunch of wheel effects while building a Leovold deck "because that looks like a strong synergy" and regularly enter into "deal with this guy turn 3 or lose instantly" situations.
So basically it boils down to: How often do players end up accidentally destroying everybody's fun? The accessibility bar here is really, really low so it's conceivable that this could be a fairly common occurrence among playgroups. The kind of stress he brings into playgroups that don't want to go into hyper-cheap removal mode could be cause for the RC to look into it, though admittedly he isn't really analogous to any other banned card with the exception of maybe Braids or Erayo, but both of them are singular in their purposes while Leovold could be built to accommodate a variety of metagames.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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He's undercosted for what he is and threatens to almost end the game turn 3. A big "scare factor" in him is that he's a 3 drop in green.
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