I think it may be worth reevaluating the ban on Erayo, Soratami Ascendant. I was trying to explain the transition from banned as commander to banned outright and I had a hard time when I came to Erayo. I can totally understand the reasons to keep Braids and Refelos banned entirely because you could argue that its not very hard for a more casual meta to accidentally break the game with these commanders but Erayo is very much a fine tuned sort of commander to make it work properly. I got into thinking about how this card works as both a commander and a singleton.
As a Commander: In a lot of ways it resembles a player playing stasis, MLD, or a fast deck like Edric, Spymaster of Trest or a stasis Derevi, Empyrial Tactician deck. I dont really want to draw edric as a baseline but edric is very fast but incredibly specific in how he needs to be built in order to function correctly which in my mind is exactly how Erayo is. When someone really spends the time and effort to make a well thought out list it can be very daunting but its not as if someone is going to play some sort of competative Erayo lock deck in a meta that was not ok with combo, MLD, and stasis effects. Its really just more or less the same kind of a deck mentality.
As a Sigleton: there are very very few decks and they are usually few and far between that Erayo seems to fit into. His trigger is hard to pull off especially when not building around.
I honestly dont really care either way but when I was explaining the transition of banned as a commander I could justify where the rest of the cards went but I could not really give a justification on why Erayo stayed banned entirely. I think it can be an oppressive deck but its also not something I overly expect someone to casually stumble into building. Its a very complex deck design and its using tactics that are generally moderated by social contracts of metas. It just feels like a bit of an odd outlier to me. That is just my $0.02 of the day.
Cryo wanted me to create a new thread discussion for Erayo as I brought it up in the general discussion. I am of the mindset that Erayo does not fit the mold of what is on the banned list and for what reason. You could argue that there is only one way to build Erayo but you could also say the same thing for a lot of other competative commanders as well. The social obligations of most metas would keep most players from playing Erayo as a commander anyways. Under these grounds I feel that the ban on Erayo has wiggle room to be discussed.
Also, for what its worth, I have no interest in ever playing Erayo as a commander. I just felt that the ban on the card does not fit the mold of the banned list mentality. I simply wanted to point out my grounds for suggesting unbanning Erayo.
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While I pointed out in the Official Forum that there really is only one way to build him, I'll also add that his ability is pretty degenerate, specifically in a MP setting. I hate trying to argue against cards like this, simply because of the counter arguments that will follow, but, it's kind of counter-intuitive to what EDH is. Once flipped, the game just stalls until a player can trigger the ability on a "garbage" spell so they can get through on their removal. It doesn't help that he is in the color to best support his ability.
All in all, I'm pretty much against all cards that punish players for playing the game. It is a great hoser against decks/players that get greedy and vomit their hands, but on the flip side, that's kind of the allure of EDH, being able to play a ton of stuff, while other players do the same.
While I pointed out in the Official Forum that there really is only one way to build him, I'll also add that his ability is pretty degenerate, specifically in a MP setting. I hate trying to argue against cards like this, simply because of the counter arguments that will follow, but, it's kind of counter-intuitive to what EDH is. Once flipped, the game just stalls until a player can trigger the ability on a "garbage" spell so they can get through on their removal. It doesn't help that he is in the color to best support his ability.
All in all, I'm pretty much against all cards that punish players for playing the game. It is a great hoser against decks/players that get greedy and vomit their hands, but on the flip side, that's kind of the allure of EDH, being able to play a ton of stuff, while other players do the same.
Hermit Druid has not been banned because technically he has other applications. While its likely that Erayo as a commander would be played in a deck full of cheap cantrips and such of that sort, you could just as equally point to other decks that there is really only one build to like Edric and ask why he has not been banned. Edric will win the game about as fast as you can lock a table with Erayo and they are both vulnerable to cheap spot removal. I am not trying to use Edric as the baseline but there are many similarities between him and Erayo in this case.
You also dont accidentally build Erayo. Some of the other banned as a commander legends are that way because you could innocently play Refelos as a commander and break a more casual game unknowingly with his fast ramp. Erayo needs to be carefully put together by someone who knows how to build and how to play the game. In my mind the big thing with Erayo as a commander is the social expectations of a meta. If you are not playing MLD, Stax, Stasis why do you think someone would play Erayo? Its the same thing. If however you are a cutthrat meta playing fast combo and MLD / Stax / Stasis then how is he out of the norm. The banned list is made for the more casual players and its geared from the perspective of those not looking to break the game. Erayo takes a lot of good deckbuilding and gameplay to play correctly and I dont think he really falls into the category of what if someone accidentally stumbles into the commander because its not that kind of a commander.
I am not going to argue against what Erayo "could do" so much as say that he does not fit the bill of what gets banned now and today. He has been on the banned list for long enough that when he was put on the list it was probably fine but if he was not on the banned list I have a strong feeling that he would not be put onto it under today's guidelines for why things get banned.
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You also dont accidentally build Erayo. Some of the other banned as a commander legends are that way because you could innocently play Refelos as a commander and break a more casual game unknowingly with his fast ramp. Erayo needs to be carefully put together by someone who knows how to build and how to play the game. In my mind the big thing with Erayo as a commander is the social expectations of a meta. If you are not playing MLD, Stax, Stasis why do you think someone would play Erayo? Its the same thing. If however you are a cutthrat meta playing fast combo and MLD / Stax / Stasis then how is he out of the norm. The banned list is made for the more casual players and its geared from the perspective of those not looking to break the game. Erayo takes a lot of good deckbuilding and gameplay to play correctly and I dont think he really falls into the category of what if someone accidentally stumbles into the commander because its not that kind of a commander.
I am not going to argue against what Erayo "could do" so much as say that he does not fit the bill of what gets banned now and today. He has been on the banned list for long enough that when he was put on the list it was probably fine but if he was not on the banned list I have a strong feeling that he would not be put onto it under today's guidelines for why things get banned.
These two paragraphs really encompass my thoughts on Erayo. I can't see anything about this card that would make a casual player want it. I also do agree with the notion that it wouldn't be added onto the list under today's criteria. With cards like Iona, Shield of Emeria, Stasis, Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, and Hokori, Dust Drinker being fair and legal (just a small list of examples) I don't see why Erayo has to be singled out as slowing the game down too much.
The only counter-argument that comes to mind is that Erayo's presence does not make enough positive contributions to the format, but this logic is faulty for reasons I have previously discussed.
Hermit Druid has not been banned because technically he has other applications.
It's anecdotal evidence, but I have never played against, nor even encountered anyone who built, a tuned Hermit Druid deck. In my experience, he is a roleplayer in Sidisi/Mimeoplasm decks or other reanimator builds.
Hermit Druid has not been banned because technically he has other applications. While its likely that Erayo as a commander would be played in a deck full of cheap cantrips and such of that sort, you could just as equally point to other decks that there is really only one build to like Edric and ask why he has not been banned. Edric will win the game about as fast as you can lock a table with Erayo and they are both vulnerable to cheap spot removal. I am not trying to use Edric as the baseline but there are many similarities between him and Erayo in this case.
Except those two examples have non-degenerate uses we actually see. No one every played Erayo when it was legal to do anything else. Those other cards routinely get played in non-degenerate ways.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Hermit Druid has not been banned because technically he has other applications. While its likely that Erayo as a commander would be played in a deck full of cheap cantrips and such of that sort, you could just as equally point to other decks that there is really only one build to like Edric and ask why he has not been banned. Edric will win the game about as fast as you can lock a table with Erayo and they are both vulnerable to cheap spot removal. I am not trying to use Edric as the baseline but there are many similarities between him and Erayo in this case.
Except those two examples have non-degenerate uses we actually see. No one every played Erayo when it was legal to do anything else. Those other cards routinely get played in non-degenerate ways.
I 100% agree.
While what I'm about to say shouldnt be criteria for a card to come off the list, I still think it's interesting none the less.
How would you build a "fair" Erayo deck? I mean, if you are playing cheap cantrips that results in a secondary win, you have betteroptions. If you are looking just do blue things, this is better. If you are looking to do a Stax type build, without doing the usual Erayo thing, then you have him.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is, the best way to build Erayo is also the most degenerate way, which is why he was banned. Building him any other way literally makes no sense considering there are way better options. Is this a good argument to keep him on the list? I don't know, probably not, but neither is saying he will be used fairly and that he can come off.
While what I'm about to say shouldnt be criteria for a card to come off the list, I still think it's interesting none the less.
How would you build a "fair" Erayo deck? I mean, if you are playing cheap cantrips that results in a secondary win, you have betteroptions. If you are looking just do blue things, this is better. If you are looking to do a Stax type build, without doing the usual Erayo thing, then you have him.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is, the best way to build Erayo is also the most degenerate way, which is why he was banned. Building him any other way literally makes no sense considering there are way better options. Is this a good argument to keep him on the list? I don't know, probably not, but neither is saying he will be used fairly and that he can come off.
+1
Anyone who wants to build a lockdown deck has a plethora of generals to choose from, and if you want to build the MUC deck, you've got other options (guy in my group chose Teferi). So there isn't really getting past the notion that there's only one way to build it. I picked up my copy before I knew it was banned for use in Animar.
My biggest concern with legalizing Erayo is that MUC decks will all run him because he truly is the most efficient general for that archetype.
While what I'm about to say shouldnt be criteria for a card to come off the list, I still think it's interesting none the less.
How would you build a "fair" Erayo deck? I mean, if you are playing cheap cantrips that results in a secondary win, you have betteroptions. If you are looking just do blue things, this is better. If you are looking to do a Stax type build, without doing the usual Erayo thing, then you have him.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is, the best way to build Erayo is also the most degenerate way, which is why he was banned. Building him any other way literally makes no sense considering there are way better options. Is this a good argument to keep him on the list? I don't know, probably not, but neither is saying he will be used fairly and that he can come off.
+1
Anyone who wants to build a lockdown deck has a plethora of generals to choose from, and if you want to build the MUC deck, you've got other options (guy in my group chose Teferi). So there isn't really getting past the notion that there's only one way to build it. I picked up my copy before I knew it was banned for use in Animar.
My biggest concern with legalizing Erayo is that MUC decks will all run him because he truly is the most efficient general for that archetype.
I guess after all this time, I just do not buy into the "fair uses" argument. Most degenerate cards on the ban list have fair uses, and lots of degenerate unbanned cards have no fair uses. I just don't see any correlation here, and it just seems like something people cite only when it is convenient.
Taking a card off the list carries its own intrinsic value, by simplifying the ruleset and freeing up a slot on the ban list for something more deserving.
I doubt all MUC decks will suddenly play Erayo. That didn't happen when Erayo was legal (Azami had a big showing, for example), so why would it happen now when we have access to even more good mono-U legends?
I see no reason to have Erayo banned. He is only degenerate when entirely built around, and has very little casual appeal. If your group has an issue with him, house ban him.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I disagree that Erayo has no "fair" uses. There's a couple of decks that can easily flip him. Any cantrip heavy deck can do it. Animar can do it. I played an Edric deck that ran him as a flying creature + wrath psuedoprotection.
I disagree that Erayo has no "fair" uses. There's a couple of decks that can easily flip him. Any cantrip heavy deck can do it. Animar can do it. I played an Edric deck that ran him as a flying creature + wrath psuedoprotection.
Would you really main board him over something else in Animar and Edric though? I think he'd be mediocre at best in either list and not an optimum card to include...
In no other way does the banned list cover these tactics. Why make an exception on a card that is very intricate and difficult to build? Nobody is going to accidentally make this. The list is also not built to scale towards those who would build it and do so well. I totally get why braids is banned because you can accidentally do it and do it well but Erayo is very intricate and outside of the norm to make work.
I wont get into the argument of fair because it really has no relation to what is and is not banned. If you want to go down that argument then you need to start talking about banning another 30ish cards.
In no other way does the banned list cover these tactics. Why make an exception on a card that is very intricate and difficult to build? Nobody is going to accidentally make this. The list is also not built to scale towards those who would build it and do so well. I totally get why braids is banned because you can accidentally do it and do it well but Erayo is very intricate and outside of the norm to make work.
I wont get into the argument of fair because it really has no relation to what is and is not banned. If you want to go down that argument then you need to start talking about banning another 30ish cards.
I don't think it was ever said that he should stay banned because he will not be used fairly. I actually outlined that in my post, and Cryogen didn't say that either, more or less just making a generalization.
My problem with Erayo is there is no grey area. It's either build degenerate, or don't build(reasons which I outlined in my prior post).
He also becomes more degenerate in a multiplayer setting.
You also can't point to symmetrical hate cards for comparasions. Erayo, to me, falls into the same category as Iona, Shield of Emeria, except on steroids.
Well, all effects you listed are completely symetrical and actually needs some workaround to not be fair. Winter orb is bonkers with untappers or lods of artifact mana, Armageddon is bonkers with a good board state etc.
Unless you build your deck to abuse a Winter Orb (I play it coupled with lots of artifact mana, clock of omens and other similar effects) it locks down everyone, you aswell.I would call that fair. Maybe not fun, but fair.
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Well, all effects you listed are completely symetrical and actually needs some workaround to not be fair. Winter orb is bonkers with untappers or lods of artifact mana, Armageddon is bonkers with a good board state etc.
Unless you build your deck to abuse a Winter Orb (I play it coupled with lots of artifact mana, clock of omens and other similar effects) it locks down everyone, you aswell.I would call that fair. Maybe not fun, but fair.
What you are looking for there is timing. Erayo also needs timing as you need to be able to flip him to make him do anything.
Honestly though, this still has little to no impact on if it should or should not be banned though.
Well, all effects you listed are completely symetrical and actually needs some workaround to not be fair. Winter orb is bonkers with untappers or lods of artifact mana, Armageddon is bonkers with a good board state etc.
Unless you build your deck to abuse a Winter Orb (I play it coupled with lots of artifact mana, clock of omens and other similar effects) it locks down everyone, you aswell.I would call that fair. Maybe not fun, but fair.
What you are looking for there is timing. Erayo also needs timing as you need to be able to flip him to make him do anything.
Honestly though, this still has little to no impact on if it should or should not be banned though.
This is misleading. You(the controlling player) don't need to do the work yourself. It's just the 4th spell cast, not the 4th spell you cast. Hence the reason I said it becomes more degenerate in a MP setting. That's a pretty big knock against it, if you ask me.
Much like asking for a card to be banned, I just don't think there is enough justifiable evidence for Erayo to safely come off the list.
Well, all effects you listed are completely symetrical and actually needs some workaround to not be fair. Winter orb is bonkers with untappers or lods of artifact mana, Armageddon is bonkers with a good board state etc.
Unless you build your deck to abuse a Winter Orb (I play it coupled with lots of artifact mana, clock of omens and other similar effects) it locks down everyone, you aswell.I would call that fair. Maybe not fun, but fair.
What you are looking for there is timing. Erayo also needs timing as you need to be able to flip him to make him do anything.
Honestly though, this still has little to no impact on if it should or should not be banned though.
But what you asked was how you fairly played cards like stasis or winter orb, and the answer to that is to simply play them and let them be symetrical. They take some work to break (just like Erayo they don't take much work but indeed some).
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I disagree that Erayo has no "fair" uses. There's a couple of decks that can easily flip him. Any cantrip heavy deck can do it. Animar can do it. I played an Edric deck that ran him as a flying creature + wrath psuedoprotection.
Would you really main board him over something else in Animar and Edric though? I think he'd be mediocre at best in either list and not an optimum card to include...
In Edric it's easy to get a turn 1 flip and he's still an evasive creature if you don't flip him. When he was legal as one of the 99 I played him in Edric and he was very powerful. Animar it probably wouldn't be as good in.
Is that relevant to him being banned though? Sure you can play Tooth and Nail or Niv-Mizzet, the firemind as "fair" cards but their optimal use isn't that.
I am not sad to see Erayo banned, but I believe it is undeserving.
I've learned quite a lot about the banned list since I first began participating at MTGS, but I believe that one of the most valuable things I've learned about the banned list is that it cannot encapsulate every single card in Magic that plays poorly in Commander. Magic is chalk full of problematic cards like Erayo, Winter Orb, and Armageddon. There are just so many different cards that play poorly in Commander that it would be impossible to eliminate all of them. As such, the banned list should not be about eliminating these undesirables. That path leads to an unmanageable banned list. If Commander happened to be its own card game separate from Magic, we could trust its developers to not print such cards in the first place, but this isn't the case. We do not live in that world and as such, every card printed in Magic consequently also exists in Commander. We must instead cope with this consequence. Annoying and unfun cards must exist in Commander, and they are here to stay. What is worth arguing is to what degree are such cards worth banning?
I do not believe Erayo is a special snowflake. She is just one of many other problematic cards and happens to be a legendary creature. As ISBPathfinder already mentioned, nobody is accidentally making Erayo. The card has little casual appeal, and it takes a great deal of effort in order to flip it.
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Here's the thing about Erayo: it used to be legal in the 99. Unless they changed their minds, the RC isn't concerned about someone putting it in Animar or Edric because there's still luck of the draw involved. But it was originally just banned as a commander, because having the card readily available made games Archenemy before the first turn.
ISB, you can't compare Winter Orb or Stasis because they aren't generals. As it was already mentioned, they're also global effects, meaning you have to not only draw the card, but also the necessary cards to break the symmetry. With Erayo, you had to draw.... your opening hand?
Here's the thing about Erayo: it used to be legal in the 99. Unless they changed their minds, the RC isn't concerned about someone putting it in Animar or Edric because there's still luck of the draw involved. But it was originally just banned as a commander, because having the card readily available made games Archenemy before the first turn.
ISB, you can't compare Winter Orb or Stasis because they aren't generals. As it was already mentioned, they're also global effects, meaning you have to not only draw the card, but also the necessary cards to break the symmetry. With Erayo, you had to draw.... your opening hand?
I always thought the really bad thing about Erayo was Erayo, two other spells, Arcane Laboratory, personally. Not insurmountable, but...insurmountable to most decks.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Some interesting insight from the actual announcement in 2014:
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Is Erayo the most powerful early game mono-blue commander? It doesn't really matter.. what matters is that adding her to the banned list sends the clearest message that generals *like this* shouldn't be played... they make for boring games.
In your opinion, how effective have the Braids/Erayo bans been at reducing the number of other commander-centric stax builds (Derevi, Zur, Hokori, Teferi 1.0 and 2.0, etc.)? Do people generally see the Erayo ban and decide to build something else entirely, or are unbanned cards generally viewed as having an implicit seal of approval?
I think it may be worth reevaluating the ban on Erayo, Soratami Ascendant. I was trying to explain the transition from banned as commander to banned outright and I had a hard time when I came to Erayo. I can totally understand the reasons to keep Braids and Refelos banned entirely because you could argue that its not very hard for a more casual meta to accidentally break the game with these commanders but Erayo is very much a fine tuned sort of commander to make it work properly. I got into thinking about how this card works as both a commander and a singleton.
As a Commander: In a lot of ways it resembles a player playing stasis, MLD, or a fast deck like Edric, Spymaster of Trest or a stasis Derevi, Empyrial Tactician deck. I dont really want to draw edric as a baseline but edric is very fast but incredibly specific in how he needs to be built in order to function correctly which in my mind is exactly how Erayo is. When someone really spends the time and effort to make a well thought out list it can be very daunting but its not as if someone is going to play some sort of competative Erayo lock deck in a meta that was not ok with combo, MLD, and stasis effects. Its really just more or less the same kind of a deck mentality.
As a Sigleton: there are very very few decks and they are usually few and far between that Erayo seems to fit into. His trigger is hard to pull off especially when not building around.
I honestly dont really care either way but when I was explaining the transition of banned as a commander I could justify where the rest of the cards went but I could not really give a justification on why Erayo stayed banned entirely. I think it can be an oppressive deck but its also not something I overly expect someone to casually stumble into building. Its a very complex deck design and its using tactics that are generally moderated by social contracts of metas. It just feels like a bit of an odd outlier to me. That is just my $0.02 of the day.
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Also, for what its worth, I have no interest in ever playing Erayo as a commander. I just felt that the ban on the card does not fit the mold of the banned list mentality. I simply wanted to point out my grounds for suggesting unbanning Erayo.
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All in all, I'm pretty much against all cards that punish players for playing the game. It is a great hoser against decks/players that get greedy and vomit their hands, but on the flip side, that's kind of the allure of EDH, being able to play a ton of stuff, while other players do the same.
Hermit Druid has not been banned because technically he has other applications. While its likely that Erayo as a commander would be played in a deck full of cheap cantrips and such of that sort, you could just as equally point to other decks that there is really only one build to like Edric and ask why he has not been banned. Edric will win the game about as fast as you can lock a table with Erayo and they are both vulnerable to cheap spot removal. I am not trying to use Edric as the baseline but there are many similarities between him and Erayo in this case.
You also dont accidentally build Erayo. Some of the other banned as a commander legends are that way because you could innocently play Refelos as a commander and break a more casual game unknowingly with his fast ramp. Erayo needs to be carefully put together by someone who knows how to build and how to play the game. In my mind the big thing with Erayo as a commander is the social expectations of a meta. If you are not playing MLD, Stax, Stasis why do you think someone would play Erayo? Its the same thing. If however you are a cutthrat meta playing fast combo and MLD / Stax / Stasis then how is he out of the norm. The banned list is made for the more casual players and its geared from the perspective of those not looking to break the game. Erayo takes a lot of good deckbuilding and gameplay to play correctly and I dont think he really falls into the category of what if someone accidentally stumbles into the commander because its not that kind of a commander.
I am not going to argue against what Erayo "could do" so much as say that he does not fit the bill of what gets banned now and today. He has been on the banned list for long enough that when he was put on the list it was probably fine but if he was not on the banned list I have a strong feeling that he would not be put onto it under today's guidelines for why things get banned.
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The only counter-argument that comes to mind is that Erayo's presence does not make enough positive contributions to the format, but this logic is faulty for reasons I have previously discussed.
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It's anecdotal evidence, but I have never played against, nor even encountered anyone who built, a tuned Hermit Druid deck. In my experience, he is a roleplayer in Sidisi/Mimeoplasm decks or other reanimator builds.
I 100% agree.
While what I'm about to say shouldnt be criteria for a card to come off the list, I still think it's interesting none the less.
How would you build a "fair" Erayo deck? I mean, if you are playing cheap cantrips that results in a secondary win, you have better options. If you are looking just do blue things, this is better. If you are looking to do a Stax type build, without doing the usual Erayo thing, then you have him.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is, the best way to build Erayo is also the most degenerate way, which is why he was banned. Building him any other way literally makes no sense considering there are way better options. Is this a good argument to keep him on the list? I don't know, probably not, but neither is saying he will be used fairly and that he can come off.
+1
Anyone who wants to build a lockdown deck has a plethora of generals to choose from, and if you want to build the MUC deck, you've got other options (guy in my group chose Teferi). So there isn't really getting past the notion that there's only one way to build it. I picked up my copy before I knew it was banned for use in Animar.
My biggest concern with legalizing Erayo is that MUC decks will all run him because he truly is the most efficient general for that archetype.
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Taking a card off the list carries its own intrinsic value, by simplifying the ruleset and freeing up a slot on the ban list for something more deserving.
I doubt all MUC decks will suddenly play Erayo. That didn't happen when Erayo was legal (Azami had a big showing, for example), so why would it happen now when we have access to even more good mono-U legends?
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In no other way does the banned list cover these tactics. Why make an exception on a card that is very intricate and difficult to build? Nobody is going to accidentally make this. The list is also not built to scale towards those who would build it and do so well. I totally get why braids is banned because you can accidentally do it and do it well but Erayo is very intricate and outside of the norm to make work.
I wont get into the argument of fair because it really has no relation to what is and is not banned. If you want to go down that argument then you need to start talking about banning another 30ish cards.
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I don't think it was ever said that he should stay banned because he will not be used fairly. I actually outlined that in my post, and Cryogen didn't say that either, more or less just making a generalization.
My problem with Erayo is there is no grey area. It's either build degenerate, or don't build(reasons which I outlined in my prior post).
He also becomes more degenerate in a multiplayer setting.
You also can't point to symmetrical hate cards for comparasions. Erayo, to me, falls into the same category as Iona, Shield of Emeria, except on steroids.
The last thing I want to see is a turn 1 Erayo's Essence.
Well, all effects you listed are completely symetrical and actually needs some workaround to not be fair. Winter orb is bonkers with untappers or lods of artifact mana, Armageddon is bonkers with a good board state etc.
Unless you build your deck to abuse a Winter Orb (I play it coupled with lots of artifact mana, clock of omens and other similar effects) it locks down everyone, you aswell.I would call that fair. Maybe not fun, but fair.
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What you are looking for there is timing. Erayo also needs timing as you need to be able to flip him to make him do anything.
Honestly though, this still has little to no impact on if it should or should not be banned though.
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This is misleading. You(the controlling player) don't need to do the work yourself. It's just the 4th spell cast, not the 4th spell you cast. Hence the reason I said it becomes more degenerate in a MP setting. That's a pretty big knock against it, if you ask me.
Much like asking for a card to be banned, I just don't think there is enough justifiable evidence for Erayo to safely come off the list.
But what you asked was how you fairly played cards like stasis or winter orb, and the answer to that is to simply play them and let them be symetrical. They take some work to break (just like Erayo they don't take much work but indeed some).
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In Edric it's easy to get a turn 1 flip and he's still an evasive creature if you don't flip him. When he was legal as one of the 99 I played him in Edric and he was very powerful. Animar it probably wouldn't be as good in.
Is that relevant to him being banned though? Sure you can play Tooth and Nail or Niv-Mizzet, the firemind as "fair" cards but their optimal use isn't that.
I've learned quite a lot about the banned list since I first began participating at MTGS, but I believe that one of the most valuable things I've learned about the banned list is that it cannot encapsulate every single card in Magic that plays poorly in Commander. Magic is chalk full of problematic cards like Erayo, Winter Orb, and Armageddon. There are just so many different cards that play poorly in Commander that it would be impossible to eliminate all of them. As such, the banned list should not be about eliminating these undesirables. That path leads to an unmanageable banned list. If Commander happened to be its own card game separate from Magic, we could trust its developers to not print such cards in the first place, but this isn't the case. We do not live in that world and as such, every card printed in Magic consequently also exists in Commander. We must instead cope with this consequence. Annoying and unfun cards must exist in Commander, and they are here to stay. What is worth arguing is to what degree are such cards worth banning?
I do not believe Erayo is a special snowflake. She is just one of many other problematic cards and happens to be a legendary creature. As ISBPathfinder already mentioned, nobody is accidentally making Erayo. The card has little casual appeal, and it takes a great deal of effort in order to flip it.
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ISB, you can't compare Winter Orb or Stasis because they aren't generals. As it was already mentioned, they're also global effects, meaning you have to not only draw the card, but also the necessary cards to break the symmetry. With Erayo, you had to draw.... your opening hand?
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I always thought the really bad thing about Erayo was Erayo, two other spells, Arcane Laboratory, personally. Not insurmountable, but...insurmountable to most decks.
On phasing:
Source: http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10749
In your opinion, how effective have the Braids/Erayo bans been at reducing the number of other commander-centric stax builds (Derevi, Zur, Hokori, Teferi 1.0 and 2.0, etc.)? Do people generally see the Erayo ban and decide to build something else entirely, or are unbanned cards generally viewed as having an implicit seal of approval?
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