Good thing Commander isn't about "competetive, cutthroat decks".
This, 100,000 times.
Seriously, this is why the vast majority of discussions in this sub-forum go nowhere. EDH/Commander is not a format designed to be competitive, but a portion of the people who regularly post ignore that and insist that the rules should reflect competitive players' concerns. Players and groups that like to play it in a competitive manner are free to do so, but in doing so they have to accept that the format's rules are not designed around that mindset, and that as such, their specific concerns are not likely to be addressed by the rules. This is why, once again, I think it would be great for a dedicated group of competitive players - rather like the people who developed the French 1v1 rules - got together to design a "competitive Commander" sub-format that addressed their concerns, rather than expecting a format that is explicitly not designed with their concerns to change for them.
In casual decks cyclonic rift only gets better because you get to overload it more often and decks are more explicitly built to have the game take longer. Your opponents typically won't go from empty board to a win in casual like they would in competitive, build up time is necessary, and cyclonic rift laughs at it. Built up a token army? Gone. Enchantment defenses? Gone. Artifact engine? Gone. Indestructible and hexproof? Still gone. But don't worry, the person who cast it loses absolutely nothing.
It's an instant speed undercosted one sided board wipe that you can't defend against in casual. Every casual blue deck should be running it, and when a card reaches that status it probably shouldn't be legal because it's too good at what it does.
I've lost token armies to other people playing Cyclonic Rift before. It happens. I've learned that when I play my Gahiji swarm deck, it's usually a good idea to target the blue player(s) early and often to try to force them out of the game early or to get them to expent resources so they can't pull those tricks later when I have more to lose.
I also play things like Ghostway and Eerie Interlude to try to blunt the impact of stuff like Cyclonic Rift. That doesn't help Gahiji as much, but it makes Mayael and General Tazri very happy, and getting a new round of ETB triggers is the frosting on that cake. Or, in decks which support it, I play countermagic.
Sometimes Cyclonic Rift, timed appropriately, cements someone a win. Sometimes it prevents someone from winning. Sometimes it's a big threat, other times it is an answer.
Rift is the 2nd most played card in commander, according to the EDHREC data, behind only Sol Ring.
Looking at a different card, Cyclonic Rift is the most-played card across all decks with blue, at 50%. It's also the colored card with the highest penetration for its possible decks. While the data alone can't tell us this, we know context around these cards: Cyclonic Rift is different from Sol Ring. At many points in a game, Sol Ring is a marginal—or even dead—draw. Cyclonic Rift isn't. If you're ahead or behind, Sol Ring likely isn't the difference maker for getting back into the game or putting it away for good. Cyclonic Rift is often backbreaking to opponents at parity, and is one of the few ways to come back from a losing position.
Rift is the 2nd most played card in commander, according to the EDHREC data, behind only Sol Ring.
Looking at a different card, Cyclonic Rift is the most-played card across all decks with blue, at 50%. It's also the colored card with the highest penetration for its possible decks. While the data alone can't tell us this, we know context around these cards: Cyclonic Rift is different from Sol Ring. At many points in a game, Sol Ring is a marginal—or even dead—draw. Cyclonic Rift isn't. If you're ahead or behind, Sol Ring likely isn't the difference maker for getting back into the game or putting it away for good. Cyclonic Rift is often backbreaking to opponents at parity, and is one of the few ways to come back from a losing position.
I think you misunderstood that list; it says in how big a percentage of the amount of decks that can play that card is that card played. While Cyclonic Rift makes over 50% of the decks it can be played in, this does NOT mean it is the second most played card; given how often Green appears in the higher ends I would dare bet that Eternal Witness sees more play even if it appears in a lower amount of green decks. But more importantly, it also means a pile of artifacts that can go in every deck is likely to appear above Cyclonic Rift, most notably Swiftfoot Boots, Lightning Greaves and Solemn Simulacrum.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I don't think the RC has banned a card for being highly played before, so discussing how much its played is pointless. They do consider cards that have a centralizing effect as ban worthy, but that doesn't mean highly played, it means that games often end up revolving around that card. It requires the card to be highly played so it shows up in enough games to have that effect, but that isn't sufficient. The card also has to, by its existence in the game, warp the game around dealing with it. For example, Prophet of Kruphix. If you saw a deck with blue and green while it was legal,, you'd know that prophet was in the deck, and all players altered their game plan around prophet. The prophet player focused on finding prophet and protecting it and reanimating it, while everyone else focused on countering it, killing it, stealing it, or exiling it. If you had Bribery, you targeted the UG player and grabbed Prophet. If you had control magic, you targeted prophet. If prophet was in the graveyard and you had Reanimate, you targeted prophet. Games revolved around Prophet. The same was true for Prime Time.
Now, let's look at rift. When you play against a blue player, you just assume rift is in the deck. OK, how does this change your game plan? In reality, it doesn't do much except discourage you from over-committing to the board the same way Wrath effects do. Yes, there is some mild playing around it, in the same way you mildly play around the possibility of counter magic when facing a blue deck, or removal when casting a key creature, or any such effect. There is no mad race to get rift. Rift is not the first card the blue player tutors for, usually waiting for a situation where they need it. There is no subgame of stealing and redirecting and recurring rift (yes, you could make a deck set up to repeatedly recur rift, but anyone who does is just making a weaker version of an infinite turn combo). If you think a player is holding rift, you might leave counter magic up for it, or you might try to draw it out by attacking the player and forcing them to use it while you have mana open to recast your board or commit more cards to the board, but that isn't any different that the way similar effects work. There isn't really anything that rift does to the game that several other cards that would never be the subject of a banlist discussion don't already also do.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Rift is just a little too strong against three other people, especially with all the recursion available to bring it back. It's not so bad, for example, in Modern if an Eldrazi deck bounces my Ensnaring Bridge and so on (I do just lose then...) or in a duel where I can replay low-cost threats and it's a glorified Fog. In Multi it becomes an instant safety blanket and gets used to just reset willy-nilly. Banning it would not do much though, as you would just NecromancyKederekt Leviathan at your leisure.
The real solution here is to just ask the blue player if they run Rift, and if they affirm, kill them instantly. ANd keep killing them.
Of course, if it DID go away we'd see blue mages turn to Disk, O-Stone, Capsize or other solutions that are less tedious or overwhelming.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
The real solution here is to just ask the blue player if they run Rift, and if they affirm, kill them instantly. ANd keep killing them.
Of course, if it DID go away we'd see blue mages turn to Disk, O-Stone, Capsize or other solutions that are less tedious or overwhelming.
You could just choose not to play against people who make your gaming experience miserable enough that you feel you have to ruin things for them in turn...
Why can't we all just get along and play some EDH?!?
I didnt cast it the other day in my Talrand deck because I would have won again. Again off the back of CR. But in neither game did anyone cast a board wipe outside me. Monoblue needs this to win or survive many strat, especially when people get bent about contermagic.
As someone said its a card that skirts the line, so context and frequency are important. I do not think it should be banned.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I don't buy into the "Blue needs Cyclonic Rift" argument. Commander existed before Rift was even printed and I don't recall monoblue or U/X decks ever being weak. It would be interesting to look up past decks and see what kind of removal/bounce was played prior to RTR. I think it's quite telling that every card with a remotely similar effect to Rift is both sorcery speed and symmetrical. Rift is just a card with all upside with too little of a cost increase to push it into Plague Wind territory.
We banned rift at my LGS and was missed so we unbanned it. It's definitely a card that creates some feel bad moments and blowout wins. BUT it's also a card that breaks up combos and other degenerate stuff. Wraths in general are just such a crucial part of the health format and I think without this one blue gets hit pretty hard.
At its base form, Rift is a slightly worse Boomerang, but the reason why WotC stopped printing Boomerangs was because $#!++3rs would bounce your turn 1 or 2 land drop effectively putting you a turn behind while said opponent would still hit every land drop, thus technically making you two turns behind. I come from a time where if you were playing monoblue, you played Counterspell and Boomerang (because Ancestral Recall was banned).
Now I admit that the 90s are a far cry from commander today, but considering Cyclonic Rift's single U as supposed to the double U of Boomerang, it makes it much easier to add into multicolored decks. Just as if you make a commander deck that has black means it is in your best interest to play Demonic Tutor (if you can afford the price tag), if you are playing a commander deck with blue, it is common sense to play rift unless either you cannot get a hold of one or your morality prevents you from doing so (see d-bag plays with Boomerang in first paragraph).
I can put this card into the Iona, Shield of Emeria category, where cards can basically maim a player in game. Next to her, it isn't so scary.
It is true that to date there is no keyword that will survive mass bounce (at instant speed, since our focus is Rift). Honestly though, I am going to compare Cyclonic rift to Fog. If you are foolhardy enough to swing all out at a deck running green, and that deck can produce even a single G, you now left yourself wide open for their counterattack and lose the game for not paying attention to that one untapped mana source. So seven lands untapped with cards in hand? Yeah, it is a card that you should prepare for not only with your mind but also your deck, but SEVEN untapped lands with cards in hand is not a clear enough warning sign, get good. I grew up with just one forest ending the game for me, and it was a mistake I made only once.
You now not only know the warning signs, but how to tweak your deck, regardless of its colors, to deal with this card. Just remember Emrakul falls to O-Ring even when Quicksilver Amulet is a thing.
I can put this card into the Iona, Shield of Emeria category, where cards can basically maim a player in game. Next to her, it isn't so scary.
They're kinda completely different. Rift is a strong, normal card, that at most one could argue might be overly centralizing. Iona is a miserable, unique card that violates the philosophy of the format and should have been banned a long time ago.
Iona and Rift have been reprinted the same amount of times as of this post: twice and the last times were pretty recent. I don't think Wizards will be passing judgment on them anytime soon.
I agree that they are different, but that is why I compared the two. People in this thread have said repeatedly that Rift not only ends games, but ruins and cripples (paraphrasing here because it was said multiple times by multiple people). If Iona hits the table and picks the color of someone running a monocolored deck, the vast majority of that person's deck, strategy, and options are instantaneously rendered useless.
Maybe Wizards will do the same thing it did to "solve" the Iona problem they will print a whole block with a mechanic to get around that one card to make everyone less afraid of it yet in a few years no one will remember to be playing with those answers. Something like:
Bean-filled Bilge Pirate 2UG
Creature-Pirate
Stubborn(if this creature would be returned to it's owner's hand from the battlefield, it instead remains on the battlefield) "I'm not afraid of a wee gust of wind, I'm make more than that in a mere morning!"
2/2
Or better yet!
Stance of Unification 2UU
Instant
Until the end of turn, creatures you control cannot be returned to their owner's hand.
I assume they will do this one instead because it is blue and honestly won't solve the problem for any nonblue player (which is where the problem lies, lets be honest here).
Do you think I'm spot on with how Wizards will "address" Rift, or do you think they will take a different avenue?
If Iona hits the table and picks the color of someone running a monocolored deck, the vast majority of that person's deck, strategy, and options are instantaneously rendered useless.
It stops generals of mono-colored or multi-colored decks.
Not common? I was talking about Devoid from Battle for Zendikar and Oath of the Gatewatch. Same set that made me have to look for an alt-win con for my C:oP deck.
Not common? I was talking about Devoid from Battle for Zendikar and Oath of the Gatewatch. Same set that made me have to look for an alt-win con for my C:oP deck.
Perhaps I am missing something, but are you suggesting that Wizards printing Devoid cards was actually a clever and subtle "hate" against Iona? That would seem like Wizards is digging pretty deep to hose something that hardly ever comes up and I doubt Devoid was designed and developed as an attack on Iona. Half the Devoid cards aren't very good anyway so if you are running Devoid to get around her, you might as well just run colorless cards that already existed (Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Duplicant, Karn Liberated, or a whole host of other artifact creatures) that are better than most of the Devoid cards.
In reality, Wizards isn't going to develop specific hate against a specific card in a format they don't make the rules for. They barely do anything for Modern and they have a vested interest in the success of Modern from a tournament perspective. I don't think they are going to branch out too far to "fix" Commander. They will make new cards that seem cool and might play with the format well, but a specific hate card seems unlikely.
Anything they do in the future will be a coincidental hate against Rift (just like Devoid was against CoP and Iona) instead of a targeted attack on it. And, I don't really see it happening either way.
I personally feel Rift is fine. It is just a powerful card that happens to benefit its caster more than other (just like a bunch of othercards). Those cards have varying power levels, but I don't see where Rift is ever going to be bannable.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I've lost token armies to other people playing Cyclonic Rift before. It happens. I've learned that when I play my Gahiji swarm deck, it's usually a good idea to target the blue player(s) early and often to try to force them out of the game early or to get them to expent resources so they can't pull those tricks later when I have more to lose.
I also play things like Ghostway and Eerie Interlude to try to blunt the impact of stuff like Cyclonic Rift. That doesn't help Gahiji as much, but it makes Mayael and General Tazri very happy, and getting a new round of ETB triggers is the frosting on that cake. Or, in decks which support it, I play countermagic.
Sometimes Cyclonic Rift, timed appropriately, cements someone a win. Sometimes it prevents someone from winning. Sometimes it's a big threat, other times it is an answer.
Yeah, it answers quite a bit at that.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Possibility Storm is more or less the perfect anti-blue card.
Rift is the 2nd most played card in commander, according to the EDHREC data, behind only Sol Ring.
I think you misunderstood that list; it says in how big a percentage of the amount of decks that can play that card is that card played. While Cyclonic Rift makes over 50% of the decks it can be played in, this does NOT mean it is the second most played card; given how often Green appears in the higher ends I would dare bet that Eternal Witness sees more play even if it appears in a lower amount of green decks. But more importantly, it also means a pile of artifacts that can go in every deck is likely to appear above Cyclonic Rift, most notably Swiftfoot Boots, Lightning Greaves and Solemn Simulacrum.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Now, let's look at rift. When you play against a blue player, you just assume rift is in the deck. OK, how does this change your game plan? In reality, it doesn't do much except discourage you from over-committing to the board the same way Wrath effects do. Yes, there is some mild playing around it, in the same way you mildly play around the possibility of counter magic when facing a blue deck, or removal when casting a key creature, or any such effect. There is no mad race to get rift. Rift is not the first card the blue player tutors for, usually waiting for a situation where they need it. There is no subgame of stealing and redirecting and recurring rift (yes, you could make a deck set up to repeatedly recur rift, but anyone who does is just making a weaker version of an infinite turn combo). If you think a player is holding rift, you might leave counter magic up for it, or you might try to draw it out by attacking the player and forcing them to use it while you have mana open to recast your board or commit more cards to the board, but that isn't any different that the way similar effects work. There isn't really anything that rift does to the game that several other cards that would never be the subject of a banlist discussion don't already also do.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The real solution here is to just ask the blue player if they run Rift, and if they affirm, kill them instantly. ANd keep killing them.
Of course, if it DID go away we'd see blue mages turn to Disk, O-Stone, Capsize or other solutions that are less tedious or overwhelming.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
You could just choose not to play against people who make your gaming experience miserable enough that you feel you have to ruin things for them in turn...
Why can't we all just get along and play some EDH?!?
Also, Capsize is hot garbage, and Disk and O-Stone are pretty bad solutions. You'd probably see people move to the next best things, be it Evacuation, Coastal Breach, Displacement Wave, Devastation Tide, Crush of Tentacles, or Kederekt Leviathan...
When was the last time you saw someone play Kederekt Leviathan every turn for the rest of the game?
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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We can agree to disagree... I will admit it has its uses, but I find it horrifyingly overrated.
As someone said its a card that skirts the line, so context and frequency are important. I do not think it should be banned.
Now I admit that the 90s are a far cry from commander today, but considering Cyclonic Rift's single U as supposed to the double U of Boomerang, it makes it much easier to add into multicolored decks. Just as if you make a commander deck that has black means it is in your best interest to play Demonic Tutor (if you can afford the price tag), if you are playing a commander deck with blue, it is common sense to play rift unless either you cannot get a hold of one or your morality prevents you from doing so (see d-bag plays with Boomerang in first paragraph).
So as far as how to stop this in each color:
colorless: Null Brooch, Mana Web, Jester's Cap
Blue:Counterspell
Red:Possibility Storm, Price of Progress, Boil, Pyroblast
Green:Tsunami, City of Solitude
White:Ghostway, Eerie Interlude, Nevermore, Iona, Shield of Emeria (yes you can cheat her instead of hardcasting her, so she can get there in plenty of time before the blue deck gets seven lands).
Black: Bitter Ordeal, Cranial Extraction, Lost Legacy, Word of Command, etc.
This is not an exhaustive list, even at the time of this post. There are actually some really good dualcolored answers too.
I can put this card into the Iona, Shield of Emeria category, where cards can basically maim a player in game. Next to her, it isn't so scary.
It is true that to date there is no keyword that will survive mass bounce (at instant speed, since our focus is Rift). Honestly though, I am going to compare Cyclonic rift to Fog. If you are foolhardy enough to swing all out at a deck running green, and that deck can produce even a single G, you now left yourself wide open for their counterattack and lose the game for not paying attention to that one untapped mana source. So seven lands untapped with cards in hand? Yeah, it is a card that you should prepare for not only with your mind but also your deck, but SEVEN untapped lands with cards in hand is not a clear enough warning sign, get good. I grew up with just one forest ending the game for me, and it was a mistake I made only once.
You now not only know the warning signs, but how to tweak your deck, regardless of its colors, to deal with this card. Just remember Emrakul falls to O-Ring even when Quicksilver Amulet is a thing.
They're kinda completely different. Rift is a strong, normal card, that at most one could argue might be overly centralizing. Iona is a miserable, unique card that violates the philosophy of the format and should have been banned a long time ago.
I agree that they are different, but that is why I compared the two. People in this thread have said repeatedly that Rift not only ends games, but ruins and cripples (paraphrasing here because it was said multiple times by multiple people). If Iona hits the table and picks the color of someone running a monocolored deck, the vast majority of that person's deck, strategy, and options are instantaneously rendered useless.
Maybe Wizards will do the same thing it did to "solve" the Iona problem they will print a whole block with a mechanic to get around that one card to make everyone less afraid of it yet in a few years no one will remember to be playing with those answers. Something like:
Bean-filled Bilge Pirate 2UG
Creature-Pirate
Stubborn(if this creature would be returned to it's owner's hand from the battlefield, it instead remains on the battlefield)
"I'm not afraid of a wee gust of wind, I'm make more than that in a mere morning!"
2/2
Or better yet!
Stance of Unification 2UU
Instant
Until the end of turn, creatures you control cannot be returned to their owner's hand.
I assume they will do this one instead because it is blue and honestly won't solve the problem for any nonblue player (which is where the problem lies, lets be honest here).
Do you think I'm spot on with how Wizards will "address" Rift, or do you think they will take a different avenue?
It stops generals of mono-colored or multi-colored decks.
Maybe. But that sort of hate is not so common any more.
In reality, Wizards isn't going to develop specific hate against a specific card in a format they don't make the rules for. They barely do anything for Modern and they have a vested interest in the success of Modern from a tournament perspective. I don't think they are going to branch out too far to "fix" Commander. They will make new cards that seem cool and might play with the format well, but a specific hate card seems unlikely.
Anything they do in the future will be a coincidental hate against Rift (just like Devoid was against CoP and Iona) instead of a targeted attack on it. And, I don't really see it happening either way.
I personally feel Rift is fine. It is just a powerful card that happens to benefit its caster more than other (just like a bunch of other cards). Those cards have varying power levels, but I don't see where Rift is ever going to be bannable.