I despise this card with every fiber of my being. It's completely impossible to fight in a "fair" way. I'm getting tired of every green deck using avenger to dominate otherwise fair games.
I would like to get discussion going on this guy because I think it's a bit stupid for a 7 mana creature to do as much as this guy does. You get a turn to answer it but the answers to it are somewhat narrow because of how many bodies it lays down, and it's a creature so it's much easier to recur than the answers.
I despise this card with every fiber of my being. It's completely impossible to fight in a "fair" way. I'm getting tired of every green deck using avenger to dominate otherwise fair games.
I would like to get discussion going on this guy because I think it's a bit stupid for a 7 mana creature to do as much as this guy does. You get a turn to answer it but the answers to it are somewhat narrow because of how many bodies it lays down, and it's a creature so it's much easier to recur than the answers.
Rushing him early is very unrewarding considering the early rushing generally requires mana rocks or mana dorks, which do not pump out many tokens, and then you need to actually trigger his landfall to make the tokens big. In essence, for him to really be a problem for the game, it requires several other cards to be played at the same time to punish players.
A lot of people point to him + Craterhoof Behemoth off a Tooth and Nail as the quintessential "domination of fair games", which I can agree with slightly. But if that is the case, I think the issue needs to shift to the one card making that all possible and not one component of the problem.
I'm unsure how to even respond to this thread. Carthage, since you claim the Avenger - which certainly is a very strong card - is unfair, can you give some examples of what you thin a fair 7-CMC green creature might be like. Because for me, when you get to CMC 7+ a creature much less powerful than this is almost never going to be worth the investment.
I'm unsure how to even respond to this thread. Carthage, since you claim the Avenger - which certainly is a very strong card - is unfair, can you give some examples of what you thin a fair 7-CMC green creature might be like. Because for me, when you get to CMC 7+ a creature much less powerful than this is almost never going to be worth the investment.
What I gathered from his post is that Avenger must be in a majority of decks that he faces against and games are typically being won off the back of it.
To me, that just means his meta/group is on the casual side - games must be typically an hour or more. I don't think Avenger is considered a competitive cards in cEDH due to his lack of power by cheating into play and the requirements for many other cards to go off.
Outside of the Tooth into Craterhoof scenario Avenger falls over to every wrath effect ever. Storm Herd is also a bonkers card if no one wraths after you use it.
I'm unsure how to even respond to this thread. Carthage, since you claim the Avenger - which certainly is a very strong card - is unfair, can you give some examples of what you thin a fair 7-CMC green creature might be like. Because for me, when you get to CMC 7+ a creature much less powerful than this is almost never going to be worth the investment.
What I gathered from his post is that Avenger must be in a majority of decks that he faces against and games are typically being won off the back of it.
To me, that just means his meta/group is on the casual side - games must be typically an hour or more. I don't think Avenger is considered a competitive cards in cEDH due to his lack of power by cheating into play and the requirements for many other cards to go off.
Yes, I play edh casually.
The card is not too strong for competitive settings, obviously. But that's not what the banlist is really for.
The card is ever present in casual games and does too much for what you pay for. It's a card that seems fair but just bulldozes fair strategies with a million bodies.
It feels like fighting against storm herd and dictate of heliod in a single, easily reusable card for only 7 mana.
So, I ask again, Carthage, what is your idea of what a fair 7-CMC green creature should be like? Because I'm also not a competitive player, but I don't see the Avenger as an unfair card, simply a very good card, and one of the few playable creatures at that cost. My mana curves drop off precipitously after CMC 6, such that a creature has to be very good for me to even consider running it at CMC 7+.
If you want to argue that he's too good when combined with any sort of Overrun effect, well, that't true of a lot of "army in a can" sort of cards.
So, I ask again, Carthage, what is your idea of what a fair 7-CMC green creature should be like? Because I'm also not a competitive player, but I don't see the Avenger as an unfair card, simply a very good card, and one of the few playable creatures at that cost. My mana curves drop off precipitously after CMC 6, such that a creature has to be very good for me to even consider running it at CMC 7+.
If you want to argue that he's too good when combined with any sort of Overrun effect, well, that't true of a lot of "army in a can" sort of cards.
The problem with avenger is that it puts a massive swarm of tokens into play and has the capacity to buff them in a single card. Usually you get one or the other, avenger puts a very above the curve amount of tokens onto the battlefield for its cost AND provides a pretty reasonably strong way to buff them.
An example of a rebalanced avenger of zendikar:
7 mana
5/5
ETB: Put a 1/1 plant onto the battlefield for each land you control
Thanks for the comparisons, Carthage. I suspect you and I aren't going to agree about the Avenger, but I do appreciate the insight into how you judge the relative fairness of various cards.
Personally, I consider Vorinclex somewhat worse than the Avenger, to a degree that I refuse to run him, even at 1 cmc higher than the Avenger. Along with Jin, Vorinclex is one of the two Praetors I won't run because I consider them to produce unfun game states too easily. The Avenger at least has the virtue of often being able to help bring the game to a decisive close, where Vorinclex can make it go longer but usually not in a fun way.
The Monstrosity, I don't consider good enough to play at all, given that the "return to the battlefield" effect is random. I also don't currently play Regal Force, simply because it is so board-state dependent. Given these limitations, I consider both to be under-powered compared to cost.
Damia is a very strong card, obviously. And I'm fond of Hornet Queen, and do run it in some decks.
I don't really even understand the hate for Tooth and Nail into Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth. Craterhoof doesn't grant Haste so all you do is get one decently sized guy who can attack right away, and the Plant tokens just go back to being 0/1s at end of turn. It can give you more damage if you already have a significant board presence, but then it's not much better than just casting an Overwhelming Stampede. I feel like this is one of the less broken Tooth and Nail combos that exist in EDH.
I utterly despise the people who make comments like the one I'm about to make, but it couldn't be more fitting here...
Run more/broader removal. This was even a Pre-Con card, with Pre-con answers like Wrath of God.
I feel as those your hatred for it stems from it being abused with other cards, and this not being the chief offender.
Edit: Those tokens are 0/1's not 1/1's.
Edit x2- NVM, that was a "rebalanced" add. And I'll add that it is nowhere near balanced. Think about it, a hard cast in land ramp gives you 12+ power on 7+ Bodies.
The problem with avenger is that it puts a massive swarm of tokens into play and has the capacity to buff them in a single card. Usually you get one or the other, avenger puts a very above the curve amount of tokens onto the battlefield for its cost AND provides a pretty reasonably strong way to buff them.
Reality is that it isn't one card that buffs them. He makes them, then needs other cards to get better. You have to make land drops consistently to make them bigger and by default, they can only get 1 +1/+1 token a turn, unless you're utilizing land ramp to make them better, which is again more cards.
You mentioned Hornet Queen as a similar, 7 CMC card, and I would argue she is actually better from a competitive standpoint because I can rush for her and always get the same value. Even in a casual setting, the flying and deathtouch does make her tokens great. You just buff them with the same cards you listed and they're still better, just not as potentially numerous.
I don't really even understand the hate for Tooth and Nail into Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth. Craterhoof doesn't grant Haste so all you do is get one decently sized guy who can attack right away, and the Plant tokens just go back to being 0/1s at end of turn. It can give you more damage if you already have a significant board presence, but then it's not much better than just casting an Overwhelming Stampede. I feel like this is one of the less broken Tooth and Nail combos that exist in EDH.
Agreed, but casual green players probably grab these two more often than not and I just used it as an example.
Also simply killing the avenger leaves it's controller with a useless army of 0/1 plants
Both I fundamentally agree with too. As a semi-competitive player, I have no issues blaping the Avenger right away when the token generation trigger is on the stack. But that requires people to include removal, which a lot of casual players just stink at doing...
There is also the point that they just have a ton of blockers on the field while they come up with their next big play, and this is AFTER the avenger has been "answered". You still risk death on the counterswing to creature pump, they can block with the tokens to survive for a long time, and they can turn the tokens into fuel if they happen to have one of several very playable sacrifice engines. They could also just get something like eternal witness and play it again.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
There is also the point that they just have a ton of blockers on the field while they come up with their next big play, and this is AFTER the avenger has been "answered". You still risk death on the counterswing to creature pump, they can block with the tokens to survive for a long time, and they can turn the tokens into fuel if they happen to have one of several very playable sacrifice engines. They could also just get something like eternal witness and play it again.
At this point you might as well be talking about Tempt with Vengeance or EoT Secure the Wastes. Heck, even Hazezon Tamar with a haste enabler does the trick. It may be the best token maker, but at the end of the day, a few tokens is the fairest thing you can do.
There is also the point that they just have a ton of blockers on the field while they come up with their next big play, and this is AFTER the avenger has been "answered". You still risk death on the counterswing to creature pump, they can block with the tokens to survive for a long time, and they can turn the tokens into fuel if they happen to have one of several very playable sacrifice engines. They could also just get something like eternal witness and play it again.
At this point you might as well be talking about Tempt with Vengeance or EoT Secure the Wastes. Heck, even Hazezon Tamar with a haste enabler does the trick. It may be the best token maker, but at the end of the day, a few tokens is the fairest thing you can do.
Those cards all require additional cards to be good.
Avenger is in the annoying spot of being both difficult to remove AND stronger than just about any other creature you can bring out AND ridiculous with too many different cards to list. There should be some tradeoff.
Don't take my arguments about the card one at a time, because it's the fact that avenger is all of these things at once that makes me want it gone from fair games.
Avenger is in the annoying spot of being both difficult to remove AND stronger than just about any other creature you can bring out AND ridiculous with too many different cards to list. There should be some tradeoff.
How is it difficult to remove? It has no protection or hexproof. Its a token generator that can slowly pump those tokens (a dime a dozen in EDH) and really only does anything with land cards. The tokens interact with all the cards lots of creatures do, but I really dont see how its unfair in the face of all the good cards that cost 7+ . Sure there are synergies, but this is turning dudes sideways that start as a 0/1.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Absolutely broken in half general that should never have seen print.
Another "fair" card that is so overtuned for it's cost it can compete with unfair strategies in raw clock speed AND has the extra consistency that comes from being strong standalone.
At this point you might as well be talking about Tempt with Vengeance or EoT Secure the Wastes. Heck, even Hazezon Tamar with a haste enabler does the trick. It may be the best token maker, but at the end of the day, a few tokens is the fairest thing you can do.
Those cards all require additional cards to be good.
Avenger is in the annoying spot of being both difficult to remove AND stronger than just about any other creature you can bring out AND ridiculous with too many different cards to list. There should be some tradeoff.
Don't take my arguments about the card one at a time, because it's the fact that avenger is all of these things at once that makes me want it gone from fair games.
Absolutely broken in half general that should never have seen print.
Another "fair" card that is so overtuned for it's cost it can compete with unfair strategies in raw clock speed AND has the extra consistency that comes from being strong standalone.
At this point, I am starting to think the broken/unfair thing you find about these cards is the massive token generation potential behind them. I also think you are not noticing that you are contradicting yourself: you have argued that Avenger of Zendikar is broken by itself, but you referenced the tokens being broken because of cards like Beastmaster Ascension and Craterhoof Behemoth, which are not good only because of Avenger.
I am not trying to be mean, but I think you just don't like Avenger and think it should be banned because you are not properly addressing it during games. The creature has no protection and does not immediately blow an opponent out unless there is a Haste effect (another card), an immediate pump spell (again, another card), or a direct damage via sac or come into play (once again, another card). I think a lot of people have no problem losing to an Avenger that suddenly makes a bunch of large tokens that can attack immediately on the same turn because of other cards in that made the tokens inherently good.
At this point you might as well be talking about Tempt with Vengeance or EoT Secure the Wastes. Heck, even Hazezon Tamar with a haste enabler does the trick. It may be the best token maker, but at the end of the day, a few tokens is the fairest thing you can do.
Those cards all require additional cards to be good.
Avenger is in the annoying spot of being both difficult to remove AND stronger than just about any other creature you can bring out AND ridiculous with too many different cards to list. There should be some tradeoff.
Don't take my arguments about the card one at a time, because it's the fact that avenger is all of these things at once that makes me want it gone from fair games.
Absolutely broken in half general that should never have seen print.
Another "fair" card that is so overtuned for it's cost it can compete with unfair strategies in raw clock speed AND has the extra consistency that comes from being strong standalone.
At this point, I am starting to think the broken/unfair thing you find about these cards is the massive token generation potential behind them. I also think you are not noticing that you are contradicting yourself: you have argued that Avenger of Zendikar is broken by itself, but you referenced the tokens being broken because of cards like Beastmaster Ascension and Craterhoof Behemoth, which are not good only because of Avenger.
I am not trying to be mean, but I think you just don't like Avenger and think it should be banned because you are not properly addressing it during games. The creature has no protection and does not immediately blow an opponent out unless there is a Haste effect (another card), an immediate pump spell (again, another card), or a direct damage via sac or come into play (once again, another card). I think a lot of people have no problem losing to an Avenger that suddenly makes a bunch of large tokens that can attack immediately on the same turn because of other cards in that made the tokens inherently good.
No, you are trying to take what I am saying as discrete arguments.
It's the fact that they all combine that makes avenger so ridiculous.
It's an army in a can, which usually requires additional support to get to edh scale.
Avenger doesn't need additional support, just the same lands( and optional ramp ) you'd be running anyways in an edh deck.
Answering just the avenger gets rid of the anthem part of the card, but leaves a ton of bodies behind which can be used in many different ways. So a single target answer isn't always enough, and is in fact pretty bad against it overall.
It's all of these things in one card all at once. It's not just a token card. It's not just an anthem. It's not just synergistic with anything that wants a bunch of creatures. It's all of them. It's a single card win condition for only 7 mana when life totals start at 40, it's too much. It can only really be answered by board wipes, and reactively board wiping against avenger isn't really getting you ahead.
Prossh is kind of similar, only it's different in that it is more synergy focused because it's your general and you can reliably assume you'll be able to get a board of 7+ creatures.
At this point you might as well be talking about Tempt with Vengeance or EoT Secure the Wastes. Heck, even Hazezon Tamar with a haste enabler does the trick. It may be the best token maker, but at the end of the day, a few tokens is the fairest thing you can do.
Those cards all require additional cards to be good.
Avenger is in the annoying spot of being both difficult to remove AND stronger than just about any other creature you can bring out AND ridiculous with too many different cards to list. There should be some tradeoff.
Don't take my arguments about the card one at a time, because it's the fact that avenger is all of these things at once that makes me want it gone from fair games.
Absolutely broken in half general that should never have seen print.
Another "fair" card that is so overtuned for it's cost it can compete with unfair strategies in raw clock speed AND has the extra consistency that comes from being strong standalone.
At this point, I am starting to think the broken/unfair thing you find about these cards is the massive token generation potential behind them. I also think you are not noticing that you are contradicting yourself: you have argued that Avenger of Zendikar is broken by itself, but you referenced the tokens being broken because of cards like Beastmaster Ascension and Craterhoof Behemoth, which are not good only because of Avenger.
I am not trying to be mean, but I think you just don't like Avenger and think it should be banned because you are not properly addressing it during games. The creature has no protection and does not immediately blow an opponent out unless there is a Haste effect (another card), an immediate pump spell (again, another card), or a direct damage via sac or come into play (once again, another card). I think a lot of people have no problem losing to an Avenger that suddenly makes a bunch of large tokens that can attack immediately on the same turn because of other cards in that made the tokens inherently good.
No, you are trying to take what I am saying as discrete arguments.
It's the fact that they all combine that makes avenger so ridiculous.
It's an army in a can, which usually requires additional support to get to edh scale.
Avenger doesn't need additional support, just the same lands( and optional ramp ) you'd be running anyways in an edh deck.
Answering just the avenger gets rid of the anthem part of the card, but leaves a ton of bodies behind which can be used in many different ways. So a single target answer isn't always enough, and is in fact pretty bad against it overall.
It's all of these things in one card all at once. It's not just a token card. It's not just an anthem. It's not just synergistic with anything that wants a bunch of creatures. It's all of them. It's a single card win condition for only 7 mana when life totals start at 40, it's too much. It can only really be answered by board wipes, and reactively board wiping against avenger isn't really getting you ahead.
Prossh is kind of similar, only it's different in that it is more synergy focused because it's your general and you can reliably assume you'll be able to get a board of 7+ creatures.
I really am having a hard time following this.
Again, I hate saying this because I despise those that do, but you really need to address the removal/answer suite in your own deck if your getting crushed by AZ. If it's getting abused, it's a secondary source that's the problem, not him. He has no evasion or protection, so he can be chumped and hit by every removal spell, Doom Blade, which then leaves them with 7-manas worth of 0/1 plant tokens, and that's on you if you let them dictate the rest of the game.
In all honesty, AZ is basically the poster child for what I want out of EDH creatures. It rewards players for going the long game, as it basically does nothing if re-animated or stolen early. It doesn't create unfavorable game-states. It can bail you out of a jam with chump-blockers.
This cards just doesn't hit a single point of ban criteria. How about Assemble the Legion? It does basically the same thing under the circumstances you have provided.
Edit- I also don't understand the reason you are being so combative towards those in this thread, only because they don't agree with you. The whole purpose of this sub-forum was to create conversation about cards, not "Its busted and your wrong if you think otherwise". I mean, what's the point in even creating this thread?
And BTW, this is a SCD, so by virtue of you throwing other cards into the mix that synergize with AZ, it is no longer that. In a vacuum, AZ is a fair, fun card. Throw anything else from an eternal card pool next to it and of course your going to experience broken, or unfair as you say, interactions.
Again, I hate saying this because I despise those that do, but you really need to address the removal/answer suite in your own deck if your getting crushed by AZ. If it's getting abused, it's a secondary source that's the problem, not him. He has no evasion or protection, so he can be chumped and hit by every removal spell, Doom Blade, which then leaves them with 7-manas worth of 0/1 plant tokens, and that's on you if you let them dictate the rest of the game.
Except board wipes don't put you ahead. Avenger comes out and is instantly better than most boards that take several turns to build up. Usually if avenger hits the field it's not "ok, well my board is stronger I don't need to worry", it's "my board is instantly outclassed and now I need a board wipe or I lose". It almost always forces a "board wipe or lose" situation for casual decks that aren't built to just end the game on the spot. So just casting avenger is almost never wrong, it puts you ahead even when they board wipe to kill it.
In all honesty, AZ is basically the poster child for what I want out of EDH creatures. It rewards players for going the long game, as it basically does nothing if re-animated or stolen early. It doesn't create unfavorable game-states. It can bail you out of a jam with chump-blockers.
It beats any other attempt at fair gameplay though. That's the problem. It's a fair card that bulldozes other people trying to play fair by outclassing them by so much so consistently.
This cards just doesn't hit a single point of ban criteria. How about Assemble the Legion? It does basically the same thing under the circumstances you have provided.
Assemble is not its own anthem and is substantially slower to build up.
Edit- I also don't understand the reason you are being so combative towards those in this thread, only because they don't agree with you. The whole purpose of this sub-forum was to create conversation about cards, not "Its busted and your wrong if you think otherwise". I mean, what's the point in even creating this thread?
And BTW, this is a SCD, so by virtue of you throwing other cards into the mix that synergize with AZ, it is no longer that. In a vacuum, AZ is a fair, fun card. Throw anything else from an eternal card pool next to it and of course your going to experience broken, or unfair as you say, interactions.
I am mentioning cards that synergize with AZ to denote that just letting your opponent keep 7+ plants on the field does not mean the threat is gone. There are many commonly played cards that can turn those 7 bodies into a swing for 40+ damage. Tooth and nail synergizes with specific two creature combos, are we not allowed to bring them up when discussing its legality?
I would like to get discussion going on this guy because I think it's a bit stupid for a 7 mana creature to do as much as this guy does. You get a turn to answer it but the answers to it are somewhat narrow because of how many bodies it lays down, and it's a creature so it's much easier to recur than the answers.
Rushing him early is very unrewarding considering the early rushing generally requires mana rocks or mana dorks, which do not pump out many tokens, and then you need to actually trigger his landfall to make the tokens big. In essence, for him to really be a problem for the game, it requires several other cards to be played at the same time to punish players.
A lot of people point to him + Craterhoof Behemoth off a Tooth and Nail as the quintessential "domination of fair games", which I can agree with slightly. But if that is the case, I think the issue needs to shift to the one card making that all possible and not one component of the problem.
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To me, that just means his meta/group is on the casual side - games must be typically an hour or more. I don't think Avenger is considered a competitive cards in cEDH due to his lack of power by cheating into play and the requirements for many other cards to go off.
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Yes, I play edh casually.
The card is not too strong for competitive settings, obviously. But that's not what the banlist is really for.
The card is ever present in casual games and does too much for what you pay for. It's a card that seems fair but just bulldozes fair strategies with a million bodies.
It feels like fighting against storm herd and dictate of heliod in a single, easily reusable card for only 7 mana.
If you want to argue that he's too good when combined with any sort of Overrun effect, well, that't true of a lot of "army in a can" sort of cards.
The most direct comparison:
hornet queen
Others that I consider strong but substantially less irritating:
vorinclex, voice of hunger ( not 7 cmc but it could cost 7 and I would still post it )
damia, sage of stone
Moldgraf Monstrosity
Regal Force
The problem with avenger is that it puts a massive swarm of tokens into play and has the capacity to buff them in a single card. Usually you get one or the other, avenger puts a very above the curve amount of tokens onto the battlefield for its cost AND provides a pretty reasonably strong way to buff them.
An example of a rebalanced avenger of zendikar:
7 mana
5/5
ETB: Put a 1/1 plant onto the battlefield for each land you control
Personally, I consider Vorinclex somewhat worse than the Avenger, to a degree that I refuse to run him, even at 1 cmc higher than the Avenger. Along with Jin, Vorinclex is one of the two Praetors I won't run because I consider them to produce unfun game states too easily. The Avenger at least has the virtue of often being able to help bring the game to a decisive close, where Vorinclex can make it go longer but usually not in a fun way.
The Monstrosity, I don't consider good enough to play at all, given that the "return to the battlefield" effect is random. I also don't currently play Regal Force, simply because it is so board-state dependent. Given these limitations, I consider both to be under-powered compared to cost.
Damia is a very strong card, obviously. And I'm fond of Hornet Queen, and do run it in some decks.
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Run more/broader removal. This was even a Pre-Con card, with Pre-con answers like Wrath of God.
I feel as those your hatred for it stems from it being abused with other cards, and this not being the chief offender.
Edit: Those tokens are 0/1's not 1/1's.
Edit x2- NVM, that was a "rebalanced" add. And I'll add that it is nowhere near balanced. Think about it, a hard cast in land ramp gives you 12+ power on 7+ Bodies.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Aveneger is pwoerfull but not opressive and really don't see the issue honestly
You mentioned Hornet Queen as a similar, 7 CMC card, and I would argue she is actually better from a competitive standpoint because I can rush for her and always get the same value. Even in a casual setting, the flying and deathtouch does make her tokens great. You just buff them with the same cards you listed and they're still better, just not as potentially numerous.
Agreed, but casual green players probably grab these two more often than not and I just used it as an example.
Both I fundamentally agree with too. As a semi-competitive player, I have no issues blaping the Avenger right away when the token generation trigger is on the stack. But that requires people to include removal, which a lot of casual players just stink at doing...
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Not always.
There there is stuff like craterhoof and beastmaster ascension which can take that army of 0/1 plants and kill a player outright
And other value engines like evolutionary leap or skullclamp that will turn those tokens into more fuel.
There is also the point that they just have a ton of blockers on the field while they come up with their next big play, and this is AFTER the avenger has been "answered". You still risk death on the counterswing to creature pump, they can block with the tokens to survive for a long time, and they can turn the tokens into fuel if they happen to have one of several very playable sacrifice engines. They could also just get something like eternal witness and play it again.
I think if you are routinely losing to this card :
A)Its actually T+N or some other MUCH better card doing the damage,
OR
B) The meta is so slow and lacking answers something else equally fair will kill you just as easily.
At this point you might as well be talking about Tempt with Vengeance or EoT Secure the Wastes. Heck, even Hazezon Tamar with a haste enabler does the trick. It may be the best token maker, but at the end of the day, a few tokens is the fairest thing you can do.
Those cards all require additional cards to be good.
Avenger is in the annoying spot of being both difficult to remove AND stronger than just about any other creature you can bring out AND ridiculous with too many different cards to list. There should be some tradeoff.
Don't take my arguments about the card one at a time, because it's the fact that avenger is all of these things at once that makes me want it gone from fair games.
Absolutely broken in half general that should never have seen print.
Another "fair" card that is so overtuned for it's cost it can compete with unfair strategies in raw clock speed AND has the extra consistency that comes from being strong standalone.
I am not trying to be mean, but I think you just don't like Avenger and think it should be banned because you are not properly addressing it during games. The creature has no protection and does not immediately blow an opponent out unless there is a Haste effect (another card), an immediate pump spell (again, another card), or a direct damage via sac or come into play (once again, another card). I think a lot of people have no problem losing to an Avenger that suddenly makes a bunch of large tokens that can attack immediately on the same turn because of other cards in that made the tokens inherently good.
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[RETIRED Primers]:
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No, you are trying to take what I am saying as discrete arguments.
It's the fact that they all combine that makes avenger so ridiculous.
It's an army in a can, which usually requires additional support to get to edh scale.
Avenger doesn't need additional support, just the same lands( and optional ramp ) you'd be running anyways in an edh deck.
Answering just the avenger gets rid of the anthem part of the card, but leaves a ton of bodies behind which can be used in many different ways. So a single target answer isn't always enough, and is in fact pretty bad against it overall.
It's all of these things in one card all at once. It's not just a token card. It's not just an anthem. It's not just synergistic with anything that wants a bunch of creatures. It's all of them. It's a single card win condition for only 7 mana when life totals start at 40, it's too much. It can only really be answered by board wipes, and reactively board wiping against avenger isn't really getting you ahead.
Prossh is kind of similar, only it's different in that it is more synergy focused because it's your general and you can reliably assume you'll be able to get a board of 7+ creatures.
I really am having a hard time following this.
Again, I hate saying this because I despise those that do, but you really need to address the removal/answer suite in your own deck if your getting crushed by AZ. If it's getting abused, it's a secondary source that's the problem, not him. He has no evasion or protection, so he can be chumped and hit by every removal spell, Doom Blade, which then leaves them with 7-manas worth of 0/1 plant tokens, and that's on you if you let them dictate the rest of the game.
In all honesty, AZ is basically the poster child for what I want out of EDH creatures. It rewards players for going the long game, as it basically does nothing if re-animated or stolen early. It doesn't create unfavorable game-states. It can bail you out of a jam with chump-blockers.
This cards just doesn't hit a single point of ban criteria. How about Assemble the Legion? It does basically the same thing under the circumstances you have provided.
Edit- I also don't understand the reason you are being so combative towards those in this thread, only because they don't agree with you. The whole purpose of this sub-forum was to create conversation about cards, not "Its busted and your wrong if you think otherwise". I mean, what's the point in even creating this thread?
And BTW, this is a SCD, so by virtue of you throwing other cards into the mix that synergize with AZ, it is no longer that. In a vacuum, AZ is a fair, fun card. Throw anything else from an eternal card pool next to it and of course your going to experience broken, or unfair as you say, interactions.
Except board wipes don't put you ahead. Avenger comes out and is instantly better than most boards that take several turns to build up. Usually if avenger hits the field it's not "ok, well my board is stronger I don't need to worry", it's "my board is instantly outclassed and now I need a board wipe or I lose". It almost always forces a "board wipe or lose" situation for casual decks that aren't built to just end the game on the spot. So just casting avenger is almost never wrong, it puts you ahead even when they board wipe to kill it.
It beats any other attempt at fair gameplay though. That's the problem. It's a fair card that bulldozes other people trying to play fair by outclassing them by so much so consistently.
Assemble is not its own anthem and is substantially slower to build up.
I am mentioning cards that synergize with AZ to denote that just letting your opponent keep 7+ plants on the field does not mean the threat is gone. There are many commonly played cards that can turn those 7 bodies into a swing for 40+ damage. Tooth and nail synergizes with specific two creature combos, are we not allowed to bring them up when discussing its legality?