FOF effects don't routinely flip over cards that help you recast them. Gifts can always find things to recur gifts, they are very different effects.
It wasn't just super competative players that were taking forever agonizing over how to resolve gifts. It was the newer players that would be overwhelmed by the number of decisions. Or the people who have 10 decks, and can't remember what all is in any one deck to plan ahead of time and want to find 4 good cards, but don't want to throw away their 2 best cards, ect. (and also to a degree super competitive players)
My experience was that people routinely took forever to cast gifts. Because if you aren't abusing it with recursion, you are throwing away your 2 best cards.
When you try to abuse gifts, its SUPER broken and ends the game. When you put it in a random deck it can slow down the game to a crawl, even without being heavily built around.
I have 27 decks and still don't waste tons of time using the card. Of course, I usually cast gifts for stuff where the choice doesn't really matter. There's a reason why I always resolve all of my girlfriend's tutor effects, though. She's a slow learner/reader and it probably would slow the game down if she had to read all the cards in the deck. When you're time efficiently tutoring, you should know basically what your cards do at a glance and be able to flip through quickly. I didn't even take more than a couple minutes using wish cards with my entire collection. I'd assume the people that take a long time with Gifts/Top take a long time with Tidings.
People should know all the cards in their deck. People should have a plan before they start with Gifts, but they very frequently do not. And thats what sucks games into EDH purgatory.
I also know that you used tidings as a somewhat tongue in cheek example, but its 100% true. There are people that take forever to cast tidings, and they take 5-10 minutes to cast gifts. I was trying to avoid using new players as a primary argument, but it is a contributing factor.
If you think you can use gifts fairly, in a way that does not drag the game to EDH purgatory, just house rule it back into your area. If people in your group really love pile splitting that much then i'm sure you won't have problems with it. In most groups it is going to end a lot of games with EOT gifts, untap combo out with counterspell back up. Or some person durdling away trying to cast it 1-2 times every single turn. Or it is going to stall out with someone trying to find 4 cards and wheeling and dealing with someone else to give them the cards they actually want to stay alive, while sticking 2 flash back cards in the GY, ect.
I already play it in my group. Of course, this is the first time I've even heard of Gifts being a super slow play problem. It was banned because it pulled 2 card combos and recursion. It's going to cost more mana than most combos to pull it off though, and certainy isn't worse than commander+1 other card combos.
Sheldon, on the latest Commanderin' podcast you said "I wouldn't hold my breath" for Gifts. Is this something you care to expand on?
Edit: I should probably stop asking questions as I'm listening to the podcast....
So your argument is that Gifts is too good because it gets all your combo stuff to hand and/or graveyard. I get what you're saying, but I feel like some very good counter-arguments have been made here. First and most importantly, the same argument is present as is with Hulk/T&N that you need to intentionally add the combos to your deck. Secondly, you're still spending a large chunk of mana to achieve this. I do concede that this mana can be split over two turns, but isn't the person casting Gifts T4/5 in order to untap and combo out not part of your target audience?
I would like to second @Cryogen's points here, and also say that if the argument to keep Gifts banned is centered around it's ability to "grab combo pieces", then this card SERIOUSLY needs to be re-looked at with a scope that covers the current philosophy that you/the RC upholds. Please try to fit Gifts ban into the points which are being publicized because "grabbing combo pieces" is not on there...
Sean made a compelling argument (although his point that Gifts = Vampiric Tutor is simply wrong), and it's worth considering. As far as it fitting into existing criteria, that's easy. Under Creates Undesirable Game States: "...Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere." I assume someone is going to inevitably Tooth and Nail; I also assume they can see the difference between a nine mana sorcery and a four mana instant.
Sean made a compelling argument (although his point that Gifts = Vampiric Tutor is simply wrong), and it's worth considering. As far as it fitting into existing criteria, that's easy. Under Creates Undesirable Game States: "...Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere." I assume someone is going to inevitably Tooth and Nail; I also assume they can see the difference between a nine mana sorcery and a four mana instant.
For me personally (realizing I'm one single data point), my first interaction with Gifts was right after I started playing EDH back in 2011, and upon discovering the card thinking it was really cool and not realizing it was banned. I don't even remember what deck it would have been for, but I know for sure that it wasn't to fuel a combo, simply because it was an efficient tutor. Nowadays I would like to have it for value in The Mimeoplasm, and don't even see the appeal to "EOT cast Gifts, untap, combo. Win?". Even the suggested uses like casting Gifts to grab 4 counterspells in order to most definitely stop a spell are cool because that screams desperation.
"...Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere." I assume someone is going to inevitably Tooth and Nail; I also assume they can see the difference between a nine mana sorcery and a four mana instant.
I mean, Gifts Ungiven is 4 mana plus the sum of whatever spells you still need to cast to win. Tooth and Nail is a single card that for nine mana both fetches the entire combo and puts into play. Tooth and Nail into combo, in that regard, is much harder to interact with than Gifts ungiven into combo. Also, although this is more personal, I don't consider seeing the combo coming much more undesirable than crossing my fingers the Tooth and Nail won't win on the spot.
I mean, Gifts Ungiven is 4 mana plus the sum of whatever spells you still need to cast to win. Tooth and Nail is a single card that for nine mana both fetches the entire combo and puts into play. Tooth and Nail into combo, in that regard, is much harder to interact with than Gifts ungiven into combo. Also, although this is more personal, I don't consider seeing the combo coming much more undesirable than crossing my fingers the Tooth and Nail won't win on the spot.
The major difference which has been brought up, and which I believe Sheldon was alluding to is that with T&N you have to spend 7 or 9 mana all at once, whereas with Gifts you are spending 4 mana during someone else's turn, and just the combo/win mana during your own turn. I haven't searched the general BL thread to restate potential Gifts piles, but IIRC they were less than nine mana (a quick internet search puts it at around 9 mana with Pestermite/Splinter Twin/E-Wit/Regrowth). So I'd like to make a call to revisit and relist Gifts piles.
I mean, Gifts Ungiven is 4 mana plus the sum of whatever spells you still need to cast to win. Tooth and Nail is a single card that for nine mana both fetches the entire combo and puts into play. Tooth and Nail into combo, in that regard, is much harder to interact with than Gifts ungiven into combo. Also, although this is more personal, I don't consider seeing the combo coming much more undesirable than crossing my fingers the Tooth and Nail won't win on the spot.
The major difference which has been brought up, and which I believe Sheldon was alluding to is that with T&N you have to spend 7 or 9 mana all at once, whereas with Gifts you are spending 4 mana during someone else's turn, and just the combo/win mana during your own turn. I haven't searched the general BL thread to restate potential Gifts piles, but IIRC they were less than nine mana (a quick internet search puts it at around 9 mana with Pestermite/Splinter Twin/E-Wit/Regrowth). So I'd like to make a call to revisit and relist Gifts piles.
Let's say you're going with one of the cheapest possible piles, and that your opponent is playing optimally:
Sean made a compelling argument (although his point that Gifts = Vampiric Tutor is simply wrong), and it's worth considering. As far as it fitting into existing criteria, that's easy. Under Creates Undesirable Game States: "...Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere." I assume someone is going to inevitably Tooth and Nail; I also assume they can see the difference between a nine mana sorcery and a four mana instant.
It actually has a lot of function other than winning the game out of nowhere. It gets 4 creatures as long as you don't care where they go or 2 copies of any effect that you run 4 versions of. That's not even counting cards that function in the graveyard and it's a double Entomb. It gets counters, O Rings, Vindicates, big ramp, draw, reanimates, or whatever. It can even get token doublers nowdays and you can use mass enchantment reanimation to bring back Doubling Season and whatever other one they dump. Trying to get 4 doubling seasons into play totally sounds like a cool use. If I had a token deck that had blue in it, I'd really love to Army of the Damned or Storm Herd with 4 doubling seasons in play.
I have no idea why we are even talking about "Gifts = win" piles because no where in the ban lost policy is that a concern...
We should be focusing on all of the ways to use Gifts WITHOUT combining out, and there though there are many ways to end the game on the back of the card (like many others), there are many, many more uses for the card.
Honestly, as long as you are not planning to win via combo with Gifts, the card is simply fun and nothing else.
Sean made a compelling argument (although his point that Gifts = Vampiric Tutor is simply wrong), and it's worth considering. As far as it fitting into existing criteria, that's easy. Under Creates Undesirable Game States: "...Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere." I assume someone is going to inevitably Tooth and Nail; I also assume they can see the difference between a nine mana sorcery and a four mana instant.
While Cryogen and everyone else delve into how bad Gifts can be if you build around it, do you mind elaborating on your bolded statement above with regards to Gifts? Just about every article about Gifts Ungiven talks about how versatile the card is, so there seems to be some disconnect.
At the very least, it seems fairly off base from a card evaluation standpoint, but I want to give you a chance to defend your viewpoint.
One of the major issues of 'win out of nowhere' we see with Gifts is that it's an instant (and relatively inexpensive to cast). We see it as an overly-easy "EOT, go get all the pieces" situation which doesn't require much else and gives far less of a chance for other players to react/interact than, say, a nine-mana sorcery does. Obviously, it's difficult to look at the way players play the card since it's been banned for quite a while, but it was our observation back then that no one was playing it for just value. If any local groups have allowed the card, we'd certainly listen to their experiences.
I've actually never seen the card played for anything other than value and was shocked when it was banned. Of course, if you want to do that you could do the same thing with Insidious Dreams and something as innocent looking as Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, or Divining Top. That's probably even better than the complication of Gifts.
One of the major issues of 'win out of nowhere' we see with Gifts is that it's an instant (and relatively inexpensive to cast). We see it as an overly-easy "EOT, go get all the pieces" situation which doesn't require much else and gives far less of a chance for other players to react/interact than, say, a nine-mana sorcery does. Obviously, it's difficult to look at the way players play the card since it's been banned for quite a while, but it was our observation back then that no one was playing it for just value. If any local groups have allowed the card, we'd certainly listen to their experiences.
I think it's only fair to point out that since it was banned there have been a lot of cool cards that want to get stuff into the yard, like Sharuun, Bruna, Mimeoplasm, Body Double, Spelltwine, etc. And sure, some of these have broken interactions that can be fueled by Gifts just as easily as with other legal cards (well, maybe not quite as easily), but new mechanics like Spell Mastery and Delerium have also shown us that there is fun stuff to do with Gifts as well.
The problem with Gifts is that its bad unless you know how to use it. In other words, just trying to use it to grab 4 good cards is generally bad, because you are going to get the two least helpful cards that you grab. The way to make Gifts work is to run a graveyard heavy deck that doesn't care whether cards are in your hand or yard, or to grab packages involving recursion so that you'll get the two cards you want no matter what. Its probably really fun in the graveyard deck, but playing packages eventually leads you into playing combo, because if you are going to tutor for 2 cards you can win the game rather than just build value or get answers. Its very similar to T&N and Protean Hulk in this way, as they also have "fair" uses but push you to include instant win combos that they can grab. The thing I've noticed is that there is an increasing incentive to play the combos the more work you have to put into it. T&N asks only that you pay 9 mana, so its easier for casual players to just slot it into an existing combo free deck to grab answers or fatties. Hulk needs to die, so while you can play it as an overcosted fatty that grabs dudes when he gets dealt with, you are given an incentive to build the ability to sacrifice him into your deck (because his tutor ability is more powerful than a 6/6), and the requirements of what you can give you an incentive to ensure that you can always fetch the full package with him to maximize your value, and once you are dedicating that much energy and deck building considerations to that one card, making sure you can fetch a combo with him is a much easier step to take. Gifts requires that you run recursion to make it work optimally, and making the other two pieces a combo is an easy next step.
This isn't an argument that it should be banned, though. It should be tested to see if its that much worse than Hulk or T&N. It is easier to fire off than either of those two, and at the EoT, so if in testing that really does give it enough of an edge then by all means keep it on the list. You don't want EoT Gifts turn 2 off a turn 1 rock into game winning combo turn 3 to be a thing that regularly ends games, so the question is how easy is that, or even turn 4 gifts turn 5 win, to pull off, and how consistently can the gifts deck do so?
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This isn't an argument that it should be banned, though. It should be tested to see if its that much worse than Hulk or T&N. It is easier to fire off than either of those two, and at the EoT, so if in testing that really does give it enough of an edge then by all means keep it on the list. You don't want EoT Gifts turn 2 off a turn 1 rock into game winning combo turn 3 to be a thing that regularly ends games, so the question is how easy is that, or even turn 4 gifts turn 5 win, to pull off, and how consistently can the gifts deck do so?
I feel like neither the consistency (and speed) of game-winning aspect of the card doesn't matter. Even if it is the fastest, most consistent combo in the entire format (and that's debatable, although I'm not going into the subject), can it be regulated by the Social aspect of the format? I mean plenty of fast game-ending combos are eventually shunned by players over a long enough period of time.
My concern is with two other aspects, one being how often and consistently can Gifts assemble a lock rather than a win. Insta-wins combos are one of the easiest things for the social aspect of the community to deal with, but lock/stax is an aspect of the format that while can also be dealt with socially, also tends to worsen the experience of the game much more than outright winning does and as a result has a higher chance of irritating people to the point they'll rather just leave the format than finding solutions (especially if each failed solution is a torturing game by itself). On top of questioning said consistency and despite me saying that it is more harmful, I did say it can be socially regulated, so at the end of the day, exactly how many people bother to do so (especially when you can outright-win with the card anyway and since that is generally socially regulated...)
The other concern is the how centralizing the card will be - I'm not talking Primeval Titan-kind of centralizing, because as an instant rather than a creature I doubt the card itself will be re-used all that much by other parties (although it isn't completely out of the question). I'm talking about how much the game itself centralizes around dealing with what Gifts Ungiven brings along with it, be it self-recursion or combo. Does playing it solely for value (even badly) elevate the status of its caster so much that the game centralizes around that player (and hence technically Gifts) instead and the same question, how often does that happen?
Sheldon has posted here that what the RC has observed were generally unfavorable likely in regards to what I already mentioned here, but simultaneously at the same time he did admit that it has been quite some time the card was banned (and hence statistically there isn't enough information for an actual observation)... so basically it's sort of like a Protean Hulk case all over again?
One of the major issues of 'win out of nowhere' we see with Gifts is that it's an instant (and relatively inexpensive to cast). We see it as an overly-easy "EOT, go get all the pieces" situation which doesn't require much else and gives far less of a chance for other players to react/interact than, say, a nine-mana sorcery does. Obviously, it's difficult to look at the way players play the card since it's been banned for quite a while, but it was our observation back then that no one was playing it for just value. If any local groups have allowed the card, we'd certainly listen to their experiences.
I think it's only fair to point out that since it was banned there have been a lot of cool cards that want to get stuff into the yard, like Sharuun, Bruna, Mimeoplasm, Body Double, Spelltwine, etc. And sure, some of these have broken interactions that can be fueled by Gifts just as easily as with other legal cards (well, maybe not quite as easily), but new mechanics like Spell Mastery and Delerium have also shown us that there is fun stuff to do with Gifts as well.
I agree with Cryogen that there is much more to Gifts than its combo potential. Furthermore, I think it is only fair to point out that since graveyard hate has much improved over the years, and was cited for the unbanning of Kokusho, the Evening Star and Protean Hulk, those considerations should extend to Gifts Ungiven as well.
I feel like neither the consistency (and speed) of game-winning aspect of the card doesn't matter. Even if it is the fastest, most consistent combo in the entire format (and that's debatable, although I'm not going into the subject), can it be regulated by the Social aspect of the format? I mean plenty of fast game-ending combos are eventually shunned by players over a long enough period of time.
My concern is with two other aspects, one being how often and consistently can Gifts assemble a lock rather than a win. Insta-wins combos are one of the easiest things for the social aspect of the community to deal with, but lock/stax is an aspect of the format that while can also be dealt with socially, also tends to worsen the experience of the game much more than outright winning does and as a result has a higher chance of irritating people to the point they'll rather just leave the format than finding solutions (especially if each failed solution is a torturing game by itself). On top of questioning said consistency and despite me saying that it is more harmful, I did say it can be socially regulated, so at the end of the day, exactly how many people bother to do so (especially when you can outright-win with the card anyway and since that is generally socially regulated...)
The other concern is the how centralizing the card will be - I'm not talking Primeval Titan-kind of centralizing, because as an instant rather than a creature I doubt the card itself will be re-used all that much by other parties (although it isn't completely out of the question). I'm talking about how much the game itself centralizes around dealing with what Gifts Ungiven brings along with it, be it self-recursion or combo. Does playing it solely for value (even badly) elevate the status of its caster so much that the game centralizes around that player (and hence technically Gifts) instead and the same question, how often does that happen?
Sheldon has posted here that what the RC has observed were generally unfavorable likely in regards to what I already mentioned here, but simultaneously at the same time he did admit that it has been quite some time the card was banned (and hence statistically there isn't enough information for an actual observation)... so basically it's sort of like a Protean Hulk case all over again?
I agree the speed and consistency of a tuned Gifts Ungiven combo deck is outside the scope of the discussion.
I don't think a "value Gifts" pile necessarily pushes the game into archenemy territory, any more than other powerful cards that are already legal (e.g. Survival of the Fittest with GG up, Necropotence to draw 7, casting Kaalia of the Vast, etc.). Nor do I think that the game going into archenemy territory is a problem! That's just part of multiplayer Magic, and it happens regularly.
I doubt that they will be making any changes this soon after making the Hulk unban. Even though I am fairly certain they still agree with their decision to unban it, they will likely wait quite a while before releasing another similarly powerful card like Gifts into the format.
Though, I must say, that I hope they come to the conclusion to unban it sooner rather than later. I still don't think it is justified on the banned list.
Well these predictions have all come to naught, haven't they?
Of all the cards on the banlist, this is probably the one I'd be most excited to have removed, with the possible exception of library of alexandria. Between politicking to get a sweet double-tutor (either by offering favors or by simply stacking the cards so that the chooser is heavily motivated to pick the ones you want), cool graveyard interactions like LFTL and flashback and whatnot, being an instant so you can respond to stuff on the stack, the complexity of setting up smart piles...there's just a ton of cool things going on with this card. Saying it's "only used for combos" is so far off-base it's kind of shocking.
I don't love the position of the RC of "try it locally and see how it goes". If you're on these forums and test-unbanning cards, you're already probably way beyond what most EDH groups are doing. I don't think it's all that useful - I think we all recognize that gifts has the potential to be busted and the potential to be fun. So if you want to go into the "experiment" to prove either, you can easily do it. It's the ultimate confirmation bias, you just get to pick which result you want.
It wasn't just super competative players that were taking forever agonizing over how to resolve gifts. It was the newer players that would be overwhelmed by the number of decisions. Or the people who have 10 decks, and can't remember what all is in any one deck to plan ahead of time and want to find 4 good cards, but don't want to throw away their 2 best cards, ect. (and also to a degree super competitive players)
My experience was that people routinely took forever to cast gifts. Because if you aren't abusing it with recursion, you are throwing away your 2 best cards.
When you try to abuse gifts, its SUPER broken and ends the game. When you put it in a random deck it can slow down the game to a crawl, even without being heavily built around.
I also know that you used tidings as a somewhat tongue in cheek example, but its 100% true. There are people that take forever to cast tidings, and they take 5-10 minutes to cast gifts. I was trying to avoid using new players as a primary argument, but it is a contributing factor.
If you think you can use gifts fairly, in a way that does not drag the game to EDH purgatory, just house rule it back into your area. If people in your group really love pile splitting that much then i'm sure you won't have problems with it. In most groups it is going to end a lot of games with EOT gifts, untap combo out with counterspell back up. Or some person durdling away trying to cast it 1-2 times every single turn. Or it is going to stall out with someone trying to find 4 cards and wheeling and dealing with someone else to give them the cards they actually want to stay alive, while sticking 2 flash back cards in the GY, ect.
Edit: I should probably stop asking questions as I'm listening to the podcast....
So your argument is that Gifts is too good because it gets all your combo stuff to hand and/or graveyard. I get what you're saying, but I feel like some very good counter-arguments have been made here. First and most importantly, the same argument is present as is with Hulk/T&N that you need to intentionally add the combos to your deck. Secondly, you're still spending a large chunk of mana to achieve this. I do concede that this mana can be split over two turns, but isn't the person casting Gifts T4/5 in order to untap and combo out not part of your target audience?
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For me personally (realizing I'm one single data point), my first interaction with Gifts was right after I started playing EDH back in 2011, and upon discovering the card thinking it was really cool and not realizing it was banned. I don't even remember what deck it would have been for, but I know for sure that it wasn't to fuel a combo, simply because it was an efficient tutor. Nowadays I would like to have it for value in The Mimeoplasm, and don't even see the appeal to "EOT cast Gifts, untap, combo. Win?". Even the suggested uses like casting Gifts to grab 4 counterspells in order to most definitely stop a spell are cool because that screams desperation.
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I mean, Gifts Ungiven is 4 mana plus the sum of whatever spells you still need to cast to win. Tooth and Nail is a single card that for nine mana both fetches the entire combo and puts into play. Tooth and Nail into combo, in that regard, is much harder to interact with than Gifts ungiven into combo. Also, although this is more personal, I don't consider seeing the combo coming much more undesirable than crossing my fingers the Tooth and Nail won't win on the spot.
The major difference which has been brought up, and which I believe Sheldon was alluding to is that with T&N you have to spend 7 or 9 mana all at once, whereas with Gifts you are spending 4 mana during someone else's turn, and just the combo/win mana during your own turn. I haven't searched the general BL thread to restate potential Gifts piles, but IIRC they were less than nine mana (a quick internet search puts it at around 9 mana with Pestermite/Splinter Twin/E-Wit/Regrowth). So I'd like to make a call to revisit and relist Gifts piles.
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Let's say you're going with one of the cheapest possible piles, and that your opponent is playing optimally:
Shuko, Cephalid Illusionist, Regrowth, Noxious Revival
You mill into a Narcomoeba and a Dread Return and then sacrifice three dudes to return a milled [Insert Win Condition X Here] and win.
That's 5 mana and 2 life beyond the Gifts Ungiven, and potentially more from Win Condition X, and is pretty risky due to graveyard hate.
We should be focusing on all of the ways to use Gifts WITHOUT combining out, and there though there are many ways to end the game on the back of the card (like many others), there are many, many more uses for the card.
Honestly, as long as you are not planning to win via combo with Gifts, the card is simply fun and nothing else.
In my Braids, Conjurer Adept deck, I'd probably search up Time Warp, Part the Waterveil, Temporal Tresspass, and Walk the Aeons. It's not exactly clever, and it's not going to win me the game, but it's also not going to be very fun for my opponents, either.
At the very least, it seems fairly off base from a card evaluation standpoint, but I want to give you a chance to defend your viewpoint.
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I think it's only fair to point out that since it was banned there have been a lot of cool cards that want to get stuff into the yard, like Sharuun, Bruna, Mimeoplasm, Body Double, Spelltwine, etc. And sure, some of these have broken interactions that can be fueled by Gifts just as easily as with other legal cards (well, maybe not quite as easily), but new mechanics like Spell Mastery and Delerium have also shown us that there is fun stuff to do with Gifts as well.
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This isn't an argument that it should be banned, though. It should be tested to see if its that much worse than Hulk or T&N. It is easier to fire off than either of those two, and at the EoT, so if in testing that really does give it enough of an edge then by all means keep it on the list. You don't want EoT Gifts turn 2 off a turn 1 rock into game winning combo turn 3 to be a thing that regularly ends games, so the question is how easy is that, or even turn 4 gifts turn 5 win, to pull off, and how consistently can the gifts deck do so?
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I feel like neither the consistency (and speed) of game-winning aspect of the card doesn't matter. Even if it is the fastest, most consistent combo in the entire format (and that's debatable, although I'm not going into the subject), can it be regulated by the Social aspect of the format? I mean plenty of fast game-ending combos are eventually shunned by players over a long enough period of time.
My concern is with two other aspects, one being how often and consistently can Gifts assemble a lock rather than a win. Insta-wins combos are one of the easiest things for the social aspect of the community to deal with, but lock/stax is an aspect of the format that while can also be dealt with socially, also tends to worsen the experience of the game much more than outright winning does and as a result has a higher chance of irritating people to the point they'll rather just leave the format than finding solutions (especially if each failed solution is a torturing game by itself). On top of questioning said consistency and despite me saying that it is more harmful, I did say it can be socially regulated, so at the end of the day, exactly how many people bother to do so (especially when you can outright-win with the card anyway and since that is generally socially regulated...)
The other concern is the how centralizing the card will be - I'm not talking Primeval Titan-kind of centralizing, because as an instant rather than a creature I doubt the card itself will be re-used all that much by other parties (although it isn't completely out of the question). I'm talking about how much the game itself centralizes around dealing with what Gifts Ungiven brings along with it, be it self-recursion or combo. Does playing it solely for value (even badly) elevate the status of its caster so much that the game centralizes around that player (and hence technically Gifts) instead and the same question, how often does that happen?
Sheldon has posted here that what the RC has observed were generally unfavorable likely in regards to what I already mentioned here, but simultaneously at the same time he did admit that it has been quite some time the card was banned (and hence statistically there isn't enough information for an actual observation)... so basically it's sort of like a Protean Hulk case all over again?
I agree the speed and consistency of a tuned Gifts Ungiven combo deck is outside the scope of the discussion.
I don't think a "value Gifts" pile necessarily pushes the game into archenemy territory, any more than other powerful cards that are already legal (e.g. Survival of the Fittest with GG up, Necropotence to draw 7, casting Kaalia of the Vast, etc.). Nor do I think that the game going into archenemy territory is a problem! That's just part of multiplayer Magic, and it happens regularly.
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Though, I must say, that I hope they come to the conclusion to unban it sooner rather than later. I still don't think it is justified on the banned list.
Yes, it is bound to happen eventually.
There is only so many times you can look at a card like tooth and nail and say it's fine but gifts ungiven encourages combos.
Maybe not the next announcement, but soon.
Of all the cards on the banlist, this is probably the one I'd be most excited to have removed, with the possible exception of library of alexandria. Between politicking to get a sweet double-tutor (either by offering favors or by simply stacking the cards so that the chooser is heavily motivated to pick the ones you want), cool graveyard interactions like LFTL and flashback and whatnot, being an instant so you can respond to stuff on the stack, the complexity of setting up smart piles...there's just a ton of cool things going on with this card. Saying it's "only used for combos" is so far off-base it's kind of shocking.
The biggest downsides are (1) the time monopolization it could take for someone without a plan, especially if they're inexperienced, and (2) the eot combo risk, but honestly the eot combo risk seems kind of irrelevant. Setting up smart gifts combos isn't as involved as doomsday I suppose, but it takes a lot more effort than T&N to turn into an instant win. The time monopolization is real, but that's also true of, say, diabolic revelation, doomsday,, kaho, minamo historian, sadistic sacrament, selective memory, supreme inquisitor, uncage the menagerie, weird harvest, behold the beyond, buried alive, intuition, life's finale, signal the clans, congregation at dawn, three dreams... Granted, those cards are simpler because you don't have as complicated of a pile situation to think about, but most newer players will probably just pull the best 4 cards they can with gifts anyway, or the two best + two recursion.
I don't love the position of the RC of "try it locally and see how it goes". If you're on these forums and test-unbanning cards, you're already probably way beyond what most EDH groups are doing. I don't think it's all that useful - I think we all recognize that gifts has the potential to be busted and the potential to be fun. So if you want to go into the "experiment" to prove either, you can easily do it. It's the ultimate confirmation bias, you just get to pick which result you want.
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