I'm interested in seeing how folks do when they're not trying to combo out or what happens when they put PHulk into decks not specifically designed to abuse it. I even more interested in hearing about the epic plays that the card creates.
I'm interested in seeing how folks do when they're not trying to combo out or what happens when they put PHulk into decks not specifically designed to abuse it. I even more interested in hearing about the epic plays that the card creates.
I was playing with it last night in a fair Jund death based deck. I got it twice that night I believe over two games. It was a cool card and it probably would have been good but someone was just dropping ridiculous value in a Green / Blue value draw ramp answer deck and so my cool plays got kind of drowned out by his things. I ended up losing both games.
So, week one was a wash for me. I got it out and in play twice but it wasn't enough to salvage the bad things that were already happening.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
hulk is broken and never should have been unbanned. Even trying as hard as I could not to win on the spot but still playing it optimally (IE with flash and all relevant tutors) the card is absolutely disgusting. Turn 1 flash hulk into karmic guide sac outlet into mikaeus into ulvenwald hydra and solemn simulacrum put me so far ahead no one could catch up. I decided to remove it and pair it with the only color that doesn't completely break it wide open, Red.
And then I broke it completely wide open, because sneak attack + hulk and Nim Deathmantle with some mana and an Ashnod's Altar pulled almost every creature from my deck, and when someone tried to remove my yard I sneak attacked in eternal witness, pulled back hulk, sneak attacked it in, sac'd it and got loaming shaman and skullwinder to pull up hulk and shuffle my yard back into my deck.
I'm fairly certain at this point I could use it to go infinite in mono green. It's broken six ways to sunday, and unbanning it was a mistake
A multiplayer victory has to exist beyond simply beating your opponent, there has to be a mutual enjoyment of everyone involved. If you win the game and everyone else is miserable then you've still lost. What gets played is irrelevant.
Yeah, it's dumb with the ***** that combos with everything. Ashnod's Altar and Karmic Guide are usually mentioned in opps I went infinite. Everyone knew you could do ***** like that years before Hulk was unbanned and I think Guide was the very first card mentioned as being stupid with it.
hulk is broken and never should have been unbanned. Even trying as hard as I could not to win on the spot but still playing it optimally (IE with flash and all relevant tutors) the card is absolutely disgusting. Turn 1 flash hulk into karmic guide sac outlet into mikaeus into ulvenwald hydra and solemn simulacrum put me so far ahead no one could catch up. I decided to remove it and pair it with the only color that doesn't completely break it wide open, Red.
And then I broke it completely wide open, because sneak attack + hulk and Nim Deathmantle with some mana and an Ashnod's Altar pulled almost every creature from my deck, and when someone tried to remove my yard I sneak attacked in eternal witness, pulled back hulk, sneak attacked it in, sac'd it and got loaming shaman and skullwinder to pull up hulk and shuffle my yard back into my deck.
I'm fairly certain at this point I could use it to go infinite in mono green. It's broken six ways to sunday, and unbanning it was a mistake
Ashnod's Altar and Nim Deathmantle are extremely powerful with many cards. That's not exactly anything new. I have 4-5 ways to win off of the back of those two alone in my Ayli deck. It's a pretty poor example to try to claim that Hulk shouldn't be banned. Sneak Attack can also throw out Eldrazi, Iona and other absurd crap on the same power level as Hulk.
I'm interested in seeing how folks do when they're not trying to combo out or what happens when they put PHulk into decks not specifically designed to abuse it. I even more interested in hearing about the epic plays that the card creates.
I've only put it in my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck, because most of my other Green decks (Selvala, Explorer Returned, Ezuri, Claw of Progress, Xenagos, God of Revels) aren't built in a way where I can just toss Protean Hulk in and sacrifice it on a whim to get his triggered ability. They'd require altering them specifically to make him a consistent power house and abuse him.
In my Sidisi list (See DementedKirby's main list here) there are a few ways to sacrifice it and it'd be easy enough to reanimate it, but so far I've mostly used it to find answers and utility - not necessarily game winning combos. Because of Gaea's Cradle and Cabal Coffers I've so far used him to find "T: Untap target ~" creatures to help generate the mana I needed to try to win a game. One game I searched for Sidisi, Undead Vizier to tutor for the last part of a combo piece. Others I went for Riftsweeper+Nullmage Shepherd to get a combo piece out of exile and destroy some troublesome Enchantments. The deck doesn't really have a way to go infinite off the back of him alone. He helps find the pieces to win the game, but does not win the game himself.
The funny thing about my games with him this weekend were that the Daxos the Returned player used Animate Dead on him while he was in my graveyard repeatedly thanks to his Cloudstone Curio shenanigans and got way more use out of Protean Hulk than I did. He was not built to be able to go infinite with Protean Hulk, either, and didn't go infinite or create an insurmountable board state.
I feel like if I were to put Protean Hulk in really any deck that isn't already trying to be extremely aggressive and put creatures like him out in Turn 2-4 to win the game through him, that he would in most cases simply be replacing himself with a combination of creatures convenient to that point in the game. The examples saying he can be Sneak Attacked out, etc are flawed in the fact that decks that could do this are normally winning in other ways or trying to by that point, anyway. If you're reanimating Protean Hulk over and over to search for spells with cards like Nim Deathmantle and Ashnod's Altar, you were probably winning with those two cards in other ways without Protean Hulk. Most cards people are claiming make Protean Hulk busted are cards that you can replace it with another creature or combo piece and still win the game.
@ frogsplosion for someone who actively wishes to break the game via t1-t3 plays, of course Hulk is gonna be broken. I just find your conclusion conflicting.
You know what's actually trying hard not to win on the spot? Casting Hulk from your hand with only lands turn 7 and beyond, and not actually tutoring for it. That's the proper way of trying hard not to win.
Well, to be fair to frogsplosion here, the test was to put hulk into "prexisting" decks, which sounds exactly like what was done.
I'll admit that I to have found difficulty in playing PHulk fairly. It's also warped a few of my groups decks. More blue decks are running Bribery, a card that had almost fallen completely out of favor. Stunt Double and Body Double have also been dropped into some decks that are primarily there to just take advantage of a potential PHulk appearance. And just to be clear, there are currently 7 decks out of 22 that run Hulk in our group.
Now, from my experiences with Hulk, it's almost always an insane value engine, and some of the time a game ender. When I cast into an appropriate board state, and whether I sac it or it dies via Wrath of God, this is where the problem happens. I find myself first trying to find the best value, but after realizing that it will amount to a tidal waves worth of advantage, I go for option 2, which also seems going overboard so then I just end up grabbing a pair of random utility/beaters. While this is totally a fair use, it still doesn't seem "right". By that I mean, if I throw Hulk into a presxisting deck, I wouldn't be making changes to make it better, I'd be making changes to make it worse. Almost all of my Wx decks run Karmic Guide. I recently got my hands on a Sneak Attack, and this was mentioned above with how powerful these 2 are together. I run Natural Order, GSZ, Summoning Pact, etc. in most of the decks I play, so getting it out isn't entirely difficult.
I guess what I'm saying is ive found myself "dumbing down" my decks when I include PHulk, because as my decks currently stand, he's just a combo engine without even trying. We've talked locally about leaving him on the BL, and it will probably end up being the case. I'm sure other groups have varying levels of experience, but my concern is playing with a group of unknowns and being exposed to the types of shenanigans that PHulk can do.
On top of the power he brings, he's also been linked to some abnormally long games due to loops and what not. We had a 3hr game the other night in which protean hulk, or clone/ reanimate of, hit the table roughly ~6 times. It was exhausting and while their were some epic and fair plays, the only thing we can remember is the constant shuffling. Not exactly a memorable experience.
While I'm inclined to agree with some of your points, I must say that everytime there is an actual update to a banlist, people don't adjust accordingly ENOUGH.
Sure, people start jamming the latest unbanned card into their decks to get the most utility. But just as equally important, many failed to provide good counters for it. I.e. Grave hate, exile effects, etc.
And true, "dumbing down" your creatures is absolutely one way of neutering the effect. I see it as a positive and not a negative. Tribal decks for example, are a bad target for Bribery.
"With great power comes great responsibility" - Uncle Ben
If you play with power, be prepared when it's used against you.
While I'm inclined to agree with some of your points, I must say that everytime there is an actual update to a banlist, people don't adjust accordingly ENOUGH.
Sure, people start jamming the latest unbanned card into their decks to get the most utility. But just as equally important, many failed to provide good counters for it. I.e. Grave hate, exile effects, etc.
And true, "dumbing down" your creatures is absolutely one way of neutering the effect. I see it as a positive and not a negative. Tribal decks for example, are a bad target for Bribery.
"With great power comes great responsibility" - Uncle Ben
If you play with power, be prepared when it's used against you.
You missed the point. I'm not complaining about my PHulk being a bribery target, I'm just stating a fact that my group statrted running cards that they hadn't in a long while just to take advantage of a potential hulk encounter. I don't appreciate the word twisting there.
Second, since Hulk is unbanned, EDH is now supposed to be tribal or bust? Durdle.dec? The goal here was to put him into pre-existing decks(echo?), which is exactly what I did. Those pre-existing decks just got leaps and bounds better with the addition of another tutor. Changes are the same wether it's neutering or optimizing, I think your kind of missing the point of the proposed exercise(is this thing on?).
Finally, while I try to not break Hulk in a pre-existing deck, what's to say somebody else in the pod will try and break it? It's not exactly a difficult feat to accomplish, roughly 3-4 cards in the correct color combination, and all of the cards involved in "Breaking Hulk" are still very good on their own. Which brings me back to my point above, I spend more time digging for "fairness" than I do for value, and in turn, I wonder why I even run the card to begin with. I don't think it's right that a deck that contains Hulk should have its own self imposed ban list just to keep it fair, considering there will be many times where the broken part of Hulk is needed to reign in another player or to end a marathon session. Except most people don't look at the whole situation, they just "Hulk Smash, Hulk Bad" for the rest of the night.
We have a large number of cards like Ghave, Kiki, and Hulk that need a self imposed ban list to keep them fair. If the card is slotted into existing infinite combo decks, though, yeah, it won't exactly stop them from going infinite or anything.
I personally can't wait to get my hands on a PHulk for my Karador deck, with virtually no changes. It's essentially a one card combo and I can just wait for it to die naturally. That said, It's unbanning seems awkward to me. At worst its a creature that replaces itself when it eventually dies... But it's replacing itself with whatever are your best creatures for the current game state and can't responded easily.
Even more recent cards like Eldritch Evolution are complete nightmares with Hulk running around now. Evolution completely bypasses the need at all for the Sac Outlet to be in play because it provides the death and a third or fourth creature that can fill that roll in the future.
I am for this unbanning but and I hope it gets people to rethink removal and prevention strategies.
So does anyone have any thoughts on how best to abuse him in non-karador decks? I'm trying to see if he is worth running in decks with UG in them, since those my favorite colors.
So I"m still trying to catch up on this thread, and maybe I haven't gotten to it yet but, how is this unbanned when I can T1 draw, play no cards, discard Protean Hulk into my GY, trigger him for say 6 mana dorks (or something similar) and by T2 I'm tapping for 6 mana plus any land I drop and artifacts I bring into play.
This seems worse than any T1 + Sol Ring + Mana vault etc shenanigans
So I"m still trying to catch up on this threads, and maybe I haven't gotten to it yet but, how is this unbanned when I can T1 draw, play no cards, discard Protean Hulk into my GY, trigger him for say 6 mana dorks (or something similar) and by T2 I'm tapping for 6 mana. This ssems worse than any T1 + Sol Ring + Mana vault etc shenanigans
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John
You seem to misunderstand how the card works. Protean Hulk needs to die. To die means to go from the battlefield to the graveyard. Going from your hand to the graveyard is not dying and will not trigger its ability.
I have been running him in every green deck I have with no other changes based on adding him (thinking of adding Dryad Arbor to the decks that don't have it though) and so far it is decent, but nowhere near broken. Keep in mind that I purposefully avoid broken interactions (infinite combos and the like) and I don't see a problem with the unbanning. I understand I may not be playing it "optimally", but I feel that if people want to use it to create infinite combos (that can already be done without Hulk) then they should be allowed to. I don't see the addition of Hulk adding the issue of degenerate combos since it is more of a social thing to keep them out of playgroups to begin with.
I was playing with it last night in a fair Jund death based deck. I got it twice that night I believe over two games. It was a cool card and it probably would have been good but someone was just dropping ridiculous value in a Green / Blue value draw ramp answer deck and so my cool plays got kind of drowned out by his things. I ended up losing both games.
So, week one was a wash for me. I got it out and in play twice but it wasn't enough to salvage the bad things that were already happening.
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[Modern] Allies
And then I broke it completely wide open, because sneak attack + hulk and Nim Deathmantle with some mana and an Ashnod's Altar pulled almost every creature from my deck, and when someone tried to remove my yard I sneak attacked in eternal witness, pulled back hulk, sneak attacked it in, sac'd it and got loaming shaman and skullwinder to pull up hulk and shuffle my yard back into my deck.
I'm fairly certain at this point I could use it to go infinite in mono green. It's broken six ways to sunday, and unbanning it was a mistake
Ashnod's Altar and Nim Deathmantle are extremely powerful with many cards. That's not exactly anything new. I have 4-5 ways to win off of the back of those two alone in my Ayli deck. It's a pretty poor example to try to claim that Hulk shouldn't be banned. Sneak Attack can also throw out Eldrazi, Iona and other absurd crap on the same power level as Hulk.
I've only put it in my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck, because most of my other Green decks (Selvala, Explorer Returned, Ezuri, Claw of Progress, Xenagos, God of Revels) aren't built in a way where I can just toss Protean Hulk in and sacrifice it on a whim to get his triggered ability. They'd require altering them specifically to make him a consistent power house and abuse him.
In my Sidisi list (See DementedKirby's main list here) there are a few ways to sacrifice it and it'd be easy enough to reanimate it, but so far I've mostly used it to find answers and utility - not necessarily game winning combos. Because of Gaea's Cradle and Cabal Coffers I've so far used him to find "T: Untap target ~" creatures to help generate the mana I needed to try to win a game. One game I searched for Sidisi, Undead Vizier to tutor for the last part of a combo piece. Others I went for Riftsweeper+Nullmage Shepherd to get a combo piece out of exile and destroy some troublesome Enchantments. The deck doesn't really have a way to go infinite off the back of him alone. He helps find the pieces to win the game, but does not win the game himself.
The funny thing about my games with him this weekend were that the Daxos the Returned player used Animate Dead on him while he was in my graveyard repeatedly thanks to his Cloudstone Curio shenanigans and got way more use out of Protean Hulk than I did. He was not built to be able to go infinite with Protean Hulk, either, and didn't go infinite or create an insurmountable board state.
I feel like if I were to put Protean Hulk in really any deck that isn't already trying to be extremely aggressive and put creatures like him out in Turn 2-4 to win the game through him, that he would in most cases simply be replacing himself with a combination of creatures convenient to that point in the game. The examples saying he can be Sneak Attacked out, etc are flawed in the fact that decks that could do this are normally winning in other ways or trying to by that point, anyway. If you're reanimating Protean Hulk over and over to search for spells with cards like Nim Deathmantle and Ashnod's Altar, you were probably winning with those two cards in other ways without Protean Hulk. Most cards people are claiming make Protean Hulk busted are cards that you can replace it with another creature or combo piece and still win the game.
(Also known as Xenphire)
You know what's actually trying hard not to win on the spot? Casting Hulk from your hand with only lands turn 7 and beyond, and not actually tutoring for it. That's the proper way of trying hard not to win.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I'll admit that I to have found difficulty in playing PHulk fairly. It's also warped a few of my groups decks. More blue decks are running Bribery, a card that had almost fallen completely out of favor. Stunt Double and Body Double have also been dropped into some decks that are primarily there to just take advantage of a potential PHulk appearance. And just to be clear, there are currently 7 decks out of 22 that run Hulk in our group.
Now, from my experiences with Hulk, it's almost always an insane value engine, and some of the time a game ender. When I cast into an appropriate board state, and whether I sac it or it dies via Wrath of God, this is where the problem happens. I find myself first trying to find the best value, but after realizing that it will amount to a tidal waves worth of advantage, I go for option 2, which also seems going overboard so then I just end up grabbing a pair of random utility/beaters. While this is totally a fair use, it still doesn't seem "right". By that I mean, if I throw Hulk into a presxisting deck, I wouldn't be making changes to make it better, I'd be making changes to make it worse. Almost all of my Wx decks run Karmic Guide. I recently got my hands on a Sneak Attack, and this was mentioned above with how powerful these 2 are together. I run Natural Order, GSZ, Summoning Pact, etc. in most of the decks I play, so getting it out isn't entirely difficult.
I guess what I'm saying is ive found myself "dumbing down" my decks when I include PHulk, because as my decks currently stand, he's just a combo engine without even trying. We've talked locally about leaving him on the BL, and it will probably end up being the case. I'm sure other groups have varying levels of experience, but my concern is playing with a group of unknowns and being exposed to the types of shenanigans that PHulk can do.
On top of the power he brings, he's also been linked to some abnormally long games due to loops and what not. We had a 3hr game the other night in which protean hulk, or clone/ reanimate of, hit the table roughly ~6 times. It was exhausting and while their were some epic and fair plays, the only thing we can remember is the constant shuffling. Not exactly a memorable experience.
Sure, people start jamming the latest unbanned card into their decks to get the most utility. But just as equally important, many failed to provide good counters for it. I.e. Grave hate, exile effects, etc.
And true, "dumbing down" your creatures is absolutely one way of neutering the effect. I see it as a positive and not a negative. Tribal decks for example, are a bad target for Bribery.
"With great power comes great responsibility" - Uncle Ben
If you play with power, be prepared when it's used against you.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
You missed the point. I'm not complaining about my PHulk being a bribery target, I'm just stating a fact that my group statrted running cards that they hadn't in a long while just to take advantage of a potential hulk encounter. I don't appreciate the word twisting there.
Second, since Hulk is unbanned, EDH is now supposed to be tribal or bust? Durdle.dec? The goal here was to put him into pre-existing decks(echo?), which is exactly what I did. Those pre-existing decks just got leaps and bounds better with the addition of another tutor. Changes are the same wether it's neutering or optimizing, I think your kind of missing the point of the proposed exercise(is this thing on?).
Finally, while I try to not break Hulk in a pre-existing deck, what's to say somebody else in the pod will try and break it? It's not exactly a difficult feat to accomplish, roughly 3-4 cards in the correct color combination, and all of the cards involved in "Breaking Hulk" are still very good on their own. Which brings me back to my point above, I spend more time digging for "fairness" than I do for value, and in turn, I wonder why I even run the card to begin with. I don't think it's right that a deck that contains Hulk should have its own self imposed ban list just to keep it fair, considering there will be many times where the broken part of Hulk is needed to reign in another player or to end a marathon session. Except most people don't look at the whole situation, they just "Hulk Smash, Hulk Bad" for the rest of the night.
I am for this unbanning but and I hope it gets people to rethink removal and prevention strategies.
BG: Viscera Seer/Carrion Feeder + Phyrexian Delver -> Reanimate Hulk -> Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Walking Ballista for infinite damage (you can skip the first step if you've already got a free sac outlet in play)
UBG: Body Double can replace Delver in the BG combo above
WRG: Márton Stromgald + Veteran Armorer + all 0-drop creatures without defender (current count: 11) for a 149-power attack (goes up if/when more 0-drops get printed)
U obviously gives Flash. B also gives you the option of Entomb + Necromancy.
Also: Dryad Arbor is a nice inclusion in any deck with Hulk. No matter what you fetch up, you can always fetch a land, as well.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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This seems worse than any T1 + Sol Ring + Mana vault etc shenanigans
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John
I have been running him in every green deck I have with no other changes based on adding him (thinking of adding Dryad Arbor to the decks that don't have it though) and so far it is decent, but nowhere near broken. Keep in mind that I purposefully avoid broken interactions (infinite combos and the like) and I don't see a problem with the unbanning. I understand I may not be playing it "optimally", but I feel that if people want to use it to create infinite combos (that can already be done without Hulk) then they should be allowed to. I don't see the addition of Hulk adding the issue of degenerate combos since it is more of a social thing to keep them out of playgroups to begin with.
Thanks so much.