Yeah, I feel like the slippery slope of "well I'll add this to make a little more value" can apply to T&N just as easily to PH. I get that there is a difference between creature and sorcery, but they should really share the same fate.
Ultimately, because Hulk and T&N are so similar, they should either both be banned, or both be unbanned (unless it can be argued, from a pure power level standpoint, that one is notably better than the other).
At this point we both agree that T&N and Hulk should very likely share the same fate and that it's hypocritical of the RC to have one banned and not the other.
There's one huge difference between Hulk and T&N - creatures are much easier to recur repeatedly. Either card by itself can win the game, provided no disruption, but Hulk can be used over and over if the first attempt fails.
The combo potential of a card is no longer a criteria for banning, so this argument should be disregarded. The only argument that holds ground for this being banned anymore (at least in my mind) is that it could be potentially centralizing. (Similar to PT, SP, and/or PoK.) Obviously this card is much different than those, though, and I just don't see this ability being super sought after in general.
It's so not sought after that I doubt I'd ever see it unless someone expected an incoming sweeper and wanted to go ahead and use their copy/reanimate effect so they didn't waste a turn. Even then, it might not be as good as the other effects or an indestructible beater.
Here's something I'd love to hear from the RC: What exactly happened in YOUR games that made Hulk so crazy? The RC stated they simply slapped it into their decks and then things went to hell, but I still ain't buying that argument.
So if you are saying you dont believe what they, whats the point of asking them for more information about said event? What would motivate them to provide that?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Here's something I'd love to hear from the RC: What exactly happened in YOUR games that made Hulk so crazy? The RC stated they simply slapped it into their decks and then things went to hell, but I still ain't buying that argument.
So if you are saying you dont believe what they, whats the point of asking them for more information about said event? What would motivate them to provide that?
I believe that they may've had negative experiences, but I want to see in what way. If all their decks already consisted a tremendous amount of revival/sac outlets to abuse the hulk to begin with, it makes things quite different. I honestly don't see how Hulk can centralize games on it's own by simply being slapped in preexisting lists. So I'd like to see something more concrete than "We tested it in this specific way and we found that we all didnt want the card back, case closed" which it now boils down to.
Whether or not they want to divulge that info is not up to me.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
We don't have that for other fringe cards, what makes Hulk special? And if they did it, wouldn't that mean the expectation is they do the same for the others? Seems like a no-win
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
We don't have that for other fringe cards, what makes Hulk special? And if they did it, wouldn't that mean the expectation is they do the same for the others? Seems like a no-win
Hulk is special because we KNOW that the RC tested it and we even know the way they tested it - they have pointed this out several times. What we don't know is exactly HOW Hulk warped their games, thus their argument of "We tested it and it's still crazy" holds little merit as we cannot see HOW it was crazy. What did Hulk do in their games that felt so format-warping? What are they seeing what everyone who clamors for it to be unbanned misses?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
i still fail to see how PH can be broken in every deck it goes into. Sure you can go find an inifnite combo but unlike T&N you are limited to 6 mana. That 6 mana does not exist in T&N
Think about it, Lou. Even in the absence of sacrifice outlets, this is still the format of big plays, which includes boardwipes. Blasphemous Act, Decree of Pain, Austere Command... I imagine that once someone got a Protean Hulk out, the other players would be scrambling to either spot-remove it before someone played a mass creature kill spell or effect (which could be the Hulk player themselves), or clone it so they wouldn't be left behind when the dust settles. Furthermore, the optimal play would be to get something that recurs the Protean Hulk and/or advances your board state.
I think that's what Sheldon means when he says "it's still crazy" (if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, Sheldon).
Think about it, Lou. Even in the absence of sacrifice outlets, this is still the format of big plays, which includes boardwipes. Blasphemous Act, Decree of Pain, Austere Command... I imagine that once someone got a Protean Hulk out, the other players would be scrambling to either spot-remove it before someone played a mass creature kill spell or effect (which could be the Hulk player themselves), or clone it so they wouldn't be left behind when the dust settles. Furthermore, the optimal play would be to get something that recurs the Protean Hulk and/or advances your board state.
I think that's what Sheldon means when he says "it's still crazy" (if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, Sheldon).
It has to die, though. From my experience, the most common removal in my groups is exile. Second, with grave hate being everywhere, it's going to be a one-shot deal more often than not. T&N replicates his effect better, is harder to copy, and has no extra hoops to jump through.
We don't have that for other fringe cards, what makes Hulk special? And if they did it, wouldn't that mean the expectation is they do the same for the others? Seems like a no-win
Hulk is special because we KNOW that the RC tested it and we even know the way they tested it - they have pointed this out several times. What we don't know is exactly HOW Hulk warped their games, thus their argument of "We tested it and it's still crazy" holds little merit as we cannot see HOW it was crazy. What did Hulk do in their games that felt so format-warping? What are they seeing what everyone who clamors for it to be unbanned misses?
I agree, who knows what PH did in their games? It not like you can tutor the revilark combos with it.
We don't have that for other fringe cards, what makes Hulk special? And if they did it, wouldn't that mean the expectation is they do the same for the others? Seems like a no-win
Hulk is special because we KNOW that the RC tested it and we even know the way they tested it - they have pointed this out several times. What we don't know is exactly HOW Hulk warped their games, thus their argument of "We tested it and it's still crazy" holds little merit as we cannot see HOW it was crazy. What did Hulk do in their games that felt so format-warping? What are they seeing what everyone who clamors for it to be unbanned misses?
I agree, who knows what PH did in their games? It not like you can tutor the revilark combos with it.
They stated it made their games miserable after putting in PHulk WITHOUT altering their decks to fit it. If ininite combos were the issue, then we know the reason for banning the card has been voided because infinite combos are not a reason to ban anymore, and the problem was instead the infinite combos in their decks.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Welp, Sheldon posted "Protean Hulk is broken in nearly every deck it can be played in."
Hilarious, that quote. As good a card as it is, it's far from broken in any deck not built to specifically abuse it.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
We opened testing PH to our extended group at the game shop. We asked people to simply put it into existing decks with no other modifications. Some of those decks by their very nature would get a ridiculous amount of extra mileage out of the card (like anything with reanimation, to include the ever-popular Karador). The blue players reported that they were very happy to be able to clone it for extreme value. The feedback was nearly unanimous that the card was overpowered and became centralizing in games; even the players who loved playing with it supported keeping it on the banned list.
And if you'd like more data, I can't help you. We're not keeping anything back, that's simply everything we have. There was no "scientific" process. We let the card loose in a somewhat-closed environment for roughly two months. We then asked folks what they thought and they told us. We have no confirmation bias here; we weren't looking for a particular answer, we were looking for what answer there might be.
We opened testing PH to our extended group at the game shop. We asked people to simply put it into existing decks with no other modifications. Some of those decks by their very nature would get a ridiculous amount of extra mileage out of the card (like anything with reanimation, to include the ever-popular Karador). The blue players reported that they were very happy to be able to clone it for extreme value. The feedback was nearly unanimous that the card was overpowered and became centralizing in games; even the players who loved playing with it supported keeping it on the banned list.
And if you'd like more data, I can't help you. We're not keeping anything back, that's simply everything we have. There was no "scientific" process. We let the card loose in a somewhat-closed environment for roughly two months. We then asked folks what they thought and they told us. We have no confirmation bias here; we weren't looking for a particular answer, we were looking for what answer there might be.
What makes a cloned Hulk different than a Reverberate'd T&N?
What was being fetched with such a ridiculous cap that one of the other 4 players couldn't deal with?
This reason for banning applies to many, MANY, other cards, and just furthers my point that this has nothing to do with the health of the format, but rather the the health of your format.
Why would the blue players clone it over any other immediate-value card that does not fizzle to an exile/bounce spell before it can die? What are they fetching that is so overly threatening with the Hulk once it dies? Yes, reanimation lists can get a nice bit of value out of it but in my experiences, reanimator rather goes for immediate threats (Praetors, Kokusho, Titans, Massacre Wurm, Sphinxes...) or quick answers/answer fetches (Angel of Serenity, Runescarred Demon, the likes). Why it would ever want to get Protean Hulk above those if it's not going to combo out is beyond me.
Yes, it's a good value piece and I think it's at least on par with the likes of Reveillark in decks with Pod chains or something. But how is it BROKEN when something like the aformentioned Reveillark isn't? Lark also has a limited useage, but a much more flexible timing at it and often feels just as if not much more abuseable, and I don't hink anybody argues that Lark is more than just a very good card.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
We opened testing PH to our extended group at the game shop. We asked people to simply put it into existing decks with no other modifications. Some of those decks by their very nature would get a ridiculous amount of extra mileage out of the card (like anything with reanimation, to include the ever-popular Karador). The blue players reported that they were very happy to be able to clone it for extreme value. The feedback was nearly unanimous that the card was overpowered and became centralizing in games; even the players who loved playing with it supported keeping it on the banned list.
And if you'd like more data, I can't help you. We're not keeping anything back, that's simply everything we have. There was no "scientific" process. We let the card loose in a somewhat-closed environment for roughly two months. We then asked folks what they thought and they told us. We have no confirmation bias here; we weren't looking for a particular answer, we were looking for what answer there might be.
It sounds like an ok test. It would still be nice to know exactly what generated the value that was alleged by the group, though. It's not exactly obvious considering the card itself is simply a vanilla 6/6. It would also be nice to know what kinds of fat, juicy clone/reanimate targets actually see play in your meta.
Even though the group was closed, it was extended--somewhere between one and two dozen players--and I was only involved or even in the shop for a small percentage of the games. There weren't written results of anything (even in my own games), so it's difficult to say what exactly was the source of discomfort. I took it as a strong signal that even players who had previously been on the unban side of the argument said they thought it should stay banned.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Sheldon, several times it's been asked. WHAT is the blue deck doing with its clone that is so overpowering. WHAT is reanimator pulling from its deck that is more dangerous than whatever it could immediately reanimate. Yet you give no answers to that, you simply say "It's our feeling". Wasn't that your feeling with Metalworker as well? Or Kokusho? Look how that turned out. (Very well, I'd say, those were two of the most sensible unbans so far)
Yet right now you're dancing around the questions that are being asked. So I'll ask again.
What does the Blue player possibly do that cloning Hulk is a better play than cloning any other direct threat or big ETB effect? What is the Reanimator deck pulling that's better than a Titan, Sphinx, Angel or Praetor? I seriously think at this point that due to the nature of your test, the focus ended up being on Hulk a bit too much. People just cloning Hulk just to see what they could do with it, even if there were probably better effects to aim at. Same with reanimation. Is the Clone deck saccing it's cloned Hulk to get two more clones out? Is the reanimator player grabbing a titan from their own deck?
We've posed some questions based on our own perception of Protean Hulk and most of them simply revolve around the same issue: What is it that's so threatening that people do with it that requires it to keep banned. It cannot be combo, because in that case there's no reason why Tooth and Nail is a perfectly legal card. So there must be something hidden in those decks of yours that's more threatening than anything already out on the field and graveyard, while costing at max 6 mana.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I'm going to attempt to gain the blessing of my league to start running Protean Hulk starting Tuesday. I've already built and goldfished the deck and I can anticipate that Hulk will be a problem. (Full decklist and recaps will come, but it's a Mimeoplasm deck)
Cryo, I'll be interested to see what you come up with.
LouCypher, I don't recall specifically what tricks the blue mages were up to, so I don't want to just make up something. I simply remember that it surprised me that the card had as much impact for them as it seemed to (although I imagine that a significant portion of them were also playing either white or black as well). My observation on the GBx and GWx decks was that PH let them do what they were already doing only better. The ability to tutor, effectively for free once you get any kind of engine running, becomes highly problematic, since the library is a more well-protected zone than the graveyard (there isn't a Withered Wretch for the library). Going into that "test," my thoughts about the card were basically what yours are, above--good value, but hardly broken (which is why I suggested taking a look at it in the first place). I came out the other side with a different opinion.
I don't know that I'd even run hulk if it was legal (and 90% of that is due to the disgusting art). We already have Boonweaver Giant to do the exact same thing with Pattern of Rebirth for both value and combo.
And for what it's worth, Jester's Cap and co are withered Wretch for the library. I just don't see how this card can be a problem, but I know a bunch of people that want to play it.
So lets say someone does, and has some data (that of course cannot be verified, but skip that), and it says what exactly? I honestly feel like no matter what the games did, the people here who think it should be unbaned (I am in that camp), would be convinced its not a problem. You can't measure how much a card wrecked a game unless you have an issue with combo and it grabs combo. Everything else outside that is an opinion on how much it affected the game, and rife for 'T+N can do that too', or 'sure that person fun-sucked, but thats because hes a tool'.
If I am wrong please tell me: What kind of things would make our faction go 'yup, it needs to stay banned'.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
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The combo potential of a card is no longer a criteria for banning, so this argument should be disregarded. The only argument that holds ground for this being banned anymore (at least in my mind) is that it could be potentially centralizing. (Similar to PT, SP, and/or PoK.) Obviously this card is much different than those, though, and I just don't see this ability being super sought after in general.
I believe that they may've had negative experiences, but I want to see in what way. If all their decks already consisted a tremendous amount of revival/sac outlets to abuse the hulk to begin with, it makes things quite different. I honestly don't see how Hulk can centralize games on it's own by simply being slapped in preexisting lists. So I'd like to see something more concrete than "We tested it in this specific way and we found that we all didnt want the card back, case closed" which it now boils down to.
Whether or not they want to divulge that info is not up to me.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Hulk is special because we KNOW that the RC tested it and we even know the way they tested it - they have pointed this out several times. What we don't know is exactly HOW Hulk warped their games, thus their argument of "We tested it and it's still crazy" holds little merit as we cannot see HOW it was crazy. What did Hulk do in their games that felt so format-warping? What are they seeing what everyone who clamors for it to be unbanned misses?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I think that's what Sheldon means when he says "it's still crazy" (if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, Sheldon).
It has to die, though. From my experience, the most common removal in my groups is exile. Second, with grave hate being everywhere, it's going to be a one-shot deal more often than not. T&N replicates his effect better, is harder to copy, and has no extra hoops to jump through.
I agree, who knows what PH did in their games? It not like you can tutor the revilark combos with it.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
They stated it made their games miserable after putting in PHulk WITHOUT altering their decks to fit it. If ininite combos were the issue, then we know the reason for banning the card has been voided because infinite combos are not a reason to ban anymore, and the problem was instead the infinite combos in their decks.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Hilarious, that quote. As good a card as it is, it's far from broken in any deck not built to specifically abuse it.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
And if you'd like more data, I can't help you. We're not keeping anything back, that's simply everything we have. There was no "scientific" process. We let the card loose in a somewhat-closed environment for roughly two months. We then asked folks what they thought and they told us. We have no confirmation bias here; we weren't looking for a particular answer, we were looking for what answer there might be.
What makes a cloned Hulk different than a Reverberate'd T&N?
What makes a reanimated Hulk different than a reanimated Kokusho, the Evening Star?
What was being fetched with such a ridiculous cap that one of the other 4 players couldn't deal with?
This reason for banning applies to many, MANY, other cards, and just furthers my point that this has nothing to do with the health of the format, but rather the the health of your format.
Yes, it's a good value piece and I think it's at least on par with the likes of Reveillark in decks with Pod chains or something. But how is it BROKEN when something like the aformentioned Reveillark isn't? Lark also has a limited useage, but a much more flexible timing at it and often feels just as if not much more abuseable, and I don't hink anybody argues that Lark is more than just a very good card.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
But here is all the reasons why it isn't.
"No, people who thought it wasn't now think it is."
What?
Seriously. What?
What could they possibly be grabbing that would completely warping the game? Your explanation is entirely devoid of context.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Yet right now you're dancing around the questions that are being asked. So I'll ask again.
What does the Blue player possibly do that cloning Hulk is a better play than cloning any other direct threat or big ETB effect? What is the Reanimator deck pulling that's better than a Titan, Sphinx, Angel or Praetor? I seriously think at this point that due to the nature of your test, the focus ended up being on Hulk a bit too much. People just cloning Hulk just to see what they could do with it, even if there were probably better effects to aim at. Same with reanimation. Is the Clone deck saccing it's cloned Hulk to get two more clones out? Is the reanimator player grabbing a titan from their own deck?
We've posed some questions based on our own perception of Protean Hulk and most of them simply revolve around the same issue: What is it that's so threatening that people do with it that requires it to keep banned. It cannot be combo, because in that case there's no reason why Tooth and Nail is a perfectly legal card. So there must be something hidden in those decks of yours that's more threatening than anything already out on the field and graveyard, while costing at max 6 mana.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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LouCypher, I don't recall specifically what tricks the blue mages were up to, so I don't want to just make up something. I simply remember that it surprised me that the card had as much impact for them as it seemed to (although I imagine that a significant portion of them were also playing either white or black as well). My observation on the GBx and GWx decks was that PH let them do what they were already doing only better. The ability to tutor, effectively for free once you get any kind of engine running, becomes highly problematic, since the library is a more well-protected zone than the graveyard (there isn't a Withered Wretch for the library). Going into that "test," my thoughts about the card were basically what yours are, above--good value, but hardly broken (which is why I suggested taking a look at it in the first place). I came out the other side with a different opinion.
And for what it's worth, Jester's Cap and co are withered Wretch for the library. I just don't see how this card can be a problem, but I know a bunch of people that want to play it.
If I am wrong please tell me: What kind of things would make our faction go 'yup, it needs to stay banned'.