It's weird from this side of the fence. I think we all (on the RC) are rooting for PH to slide across the line into not-dangerous territory, but it continues to dash our hopes.
It's weird from this side of the fence. I think we all (on the RC) are rooting for PH to slide across the line into not-dangerous territory, but it continues to dash our hopes.
Thank you for this response! I very much respect the RC's effort to try and look and re-evaluate banned cards. Could you elaborate on the scenarios where Hulk has proven to still be too strong/gamewarping? What kind of targets are we talking about? I assume the testing pool didn't consist of decks with Hulk instawin mechanisms, so I'm interested in the creatures that it fetched. I feel that most problematic creatures in regular EDH aren't actually fetchable with Hulk (stuff like Craterhoof, the relevant Praetors, Avenger of Zendikar, etc.).
Or is the reason for it being problematic related to people constantly trying to reanimate/steal/copy it?
This is old news, but we (my local play group at Armada Games) tested it out by putting it into existing green decks with no additional changes. Shortly thereafter, there was a giant chorus of "keep it banned" even from the players who were most benefiting from it. It over-centralized games and even decks which weren't designed to abuse it somehow found ways.
This is old news, but we (my local play group at Armada Games) tested it out by putting it into existing green decks with no additional changes. Shortly thereafter, there was a giant chorus of "keep it banned" even from the players who were most benefiting from it. It over-centralized games and even decks which weren't designed to abuse it somehow found ways.
Oh.. I thought you were talking about recent testing. Nevertheless I think everyone would be very keen to hear what creatures were fetched (if that info was received). It could open up more topics for Hulk discussion, or maybe even change the perspective of certain people (myself included) that believe non-combo Hulk usage is not oppressive.
More recently, we let one of the players put it in both his Commander 2015 League and Commander Rotisserie Draft decks, and it honestly didn't see enough play to make any real assessments on it.
Thing is Sheldon, I read your report on Protean Hulk's last test (From your 2016 article) and I still didn't see where Hulk was the real issue. You talk about cloning Hulk but the relevant piece of info needed here is; what else was on the table that could've possibly be cloned that you chose to ignore?
I'm just not seeing it. In any deck that cannot immediately sacrifice him, cloning Hulk is merely a good play to protect you from an incoming boardwipe. And that it does pretty well, yet even then, would you choose cloning it over, say, a Rune-Scarred Demon? Because that's what I keep running into. Whenever clones/enemy reanimation are a factor, I keep wondering "Why pick Hulk over many more-immediate impact creatures".
I feel that in that way, it's not all that different from Kokusho. A Chainer deck for example still has a field day with enemy Kokushos, and would do the same with enemy Hulks. A clone-heavy deck would feel much the same. However, in both cases, the Kokusho (Or the Gray Merchant) seems to be more urgent a threat as Protean Hulk will ever be.
And a lot of metas have ramped up on the grave hate too. Between Bojuka Bog, Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Angel of Finality and many others, graves are far from sacred these days. This already helped in freeing Kokusho. It's time it also applied to Hulk.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It's also about educating the public. Generally, people get better as they play more and more. We also assume that people will react and adapt accordingly to their given meta. If your meta consists of heavy graveyard shenanigans, wouldn't you as a player there, fill in more graveyard hate?
Both Hulk and T&N should be discussed at the same level. The groupthink and subsequent prejudice should be eliminated. Armada Games isn't the general meta of the world. Armada Games play with league rules in addition to the RC rules, so for this reason I can't see why examples from League games should be valid for general EDH.
Protean Hulk is a card that people will continue to talk about and we'll continue to discuss as well. LouCypher makes reasonable points. It's definitely not a black-and-white card like others on the list. As far as mention my local groups, I'm aware that they're not a stand-in for everyone's experience. There is no such thing as a "world" metagame, and anyone who thinks I'm suggesting my local environment reflects such a thing either hasn't been paying attention or is being willfully argumentative.
Protean Hulk is a card that people will continue to talk about and we'll continue to discuss as well. LouCypher makes reasonable points. It's definitely not a black-and-white card like others on the list. As far as mention my local groups, I'm aware that they're not a stand-in for everyone's experience. There is no such thing as a "world" metagame, and anyone who thinks I'm suggesting my local environment reflects such a thing either hasn't been paying attention or is being willfully argumentative.
Well that's kind of the thing here; most of the arguments you give - and indeed, the article you wrote on it back in summer '16 - used your group as the starting point. Which is why I in turn wonder about a few specifics about the table, especially the state of it which urged you to clone the Hulk and not something more immediately threatening/effective. It also causes people to pull back towards the argument of you seeing your group as representative - perhaps it's in the way your articles are worded. Your perception is that many groups will abuse it, my perception is that usually most abuse tends to have better targets to find. (This is, of course, the whole Other Players On The Table Abuse It part, discounting the Player With Hulk In Deck abuses it)
In the end, the reason I argue in its favor so often is for a large part due to the odd inconsistency versus Tooth and Nail which, again in my perception, ruins a lot more casual games. Your rebuttal tends to be that it sees a lot less abuse - and indeed, opponents have a lot harder time to abuse it. Mostly it doesnt matter as it's game over anyway.
But in the end, PHulk just doesn't have that same "Must Abuse/Copy/Clone NOW" sign hovering above it as it used to do, in parts due to the uptick in exile removal and GY hate - same reason Kokusho right now is a good-but-far-from-broken card.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Protean Hulk is a card that people will continue to talk about and we'll continue to discuss as well. LouCypher makes reasonable points. It's definitely not a black-and-white card like others on the list. As far as mention my local groups, I'm aware that they're not a stand-in for everyone's experience. There is no such thing as a "world" metagame, and anyone who thinks I'm suggesting my local environment reflects such a thing either hasn't been paying attention or is being willfully argumentative.
Directly in response because it is topical to the conversation but certainly any card can be substituted in its place, but do/have other RC members performed similar tests within their playgroups as well. Part of the reason for some stubbornness is because we are only being presented with your findings from your group. I'm drawing a blank right now but I believe that the Kokusho test was conducted in multiple groups, what about Hulk?
Anyone have a primer for a Protean Hulk EDH deck? I'm interested!
Most Karador decks can go infinite quite easily off it, since it'll just fetch Llark/Guide along with Viscera Seer to start the usual infinite chain it already runs.
When I first started playing Jenara I fumbled around with using a Reveillark combo by using Saffi Eriksdotter in a traditional GW method of executing it. After playing with the list for some time I realized that by utilizing blue you can shortcut the process, use less cards, and execute it much stronger. To start it out you will need Survival of the Fittest in play. Using Survival of the Fittest, move a creature in your hand to be all of the following creatures. You can throw away all of the creatures except for Reveillark into your graveyard so just save him for last and it will work fine. Tutor up Mirror Entity, Body Double, and Acidic Slime in your graveyard with Reveillark in your hand as the last tutor target. This only requires a single creature in hand to get started. Just chain that one creature between them all.
2) Mirror Entity triggers some large number of times... lets say 100 times for 0 mana while retaining priority. Allow the first trigger to resolve and kill your creatures.
3) Body Double dies and triggers the Reveillark ability. Using Reveillark ability you rez Body Double and Acidic Slime into play with Body Double as Reveillark and the slime into play wrecking a target. From here you have the combo rolling and the Body Double replaces a lot of the complicated parts just rezing itself and Acidic Slime over and over. Once you run out of targets for slime to work with rez something else or just opt to keep cycling Body Double as the only rez target until you are out of Mirror Entity triggers. End the last trigger with Mirror Entity + Body Double as a copy of Reveillark and you can kick back into the combo anytime you would like.
Using this method you can also rez Body Double and Karmic Guide if you want. Using the Karmic Guide you can literally rez anything else into play to execute the combo with any ETB creature.
Ooops thats Survival of the Fittest combo..... I kid but only sort of because its really the same combo reskinned. Its uses Viscera Seer + Karmic Guide first loop. Reveillark for the second loop. Then go get anything with 2 or less power that has an ETB / Leaves play effect and you have set up the same. Its more or less the same combo executed in.... a mostly slower way lol. Its a little awkward because if you draw combo pieces you have to get them in play / bin (need a sac outlet still to get going). Its possible that Protean Hulk adds enough consistency to make a Lark combo more consistent but honestly, Lark combo has been a thing for a good long while now due to Survival and to my knowledge its not really used that much so I don't see why Hulk makes any difference in this since its about the same difficulty in executing.
Protean Hulk is at its best with Flash. That's why Flash is banned in Legacy. Ignoring Flash, it's a somewhat better Boonweaver Giant for combo purposes. That shouldn't affect the format too much. But with Flash you're ending the game at instant speed for two cards and two mana. Survival of the Fittest can't do that.
Flash-Hulk in EDH requires Grand Architect, Pili-Pala and a way to use the infinite mana like Thrasios, Triton Hero. Else you're looking at 4-colour decks.
The thing that keeps this combo in the realm of not being why it gets banned is that Pili-Palla isn't a card you run if you want to do fair stuff anyway, and you still do require two specific cards on hand and is not a one-card-i-win kind of deal.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
This. The secret of this format is in not breaking it.
I agree. I have to assume the reasons it is coming off of the banned list is because it has a lot of non combo uses for which it is just a strong card in a niche archetype. It can be used as a combo card but so can so many others. Its not that fast of a combo and most of the ways to "break" it and go faster you could supplement in a lot of other combos that exist into the same formula.
The reason that it was unbanned was not for those looking for another combo outlet but because of those who want to use it as just a strong value card. From the standpoint that Hermit Druid is still a legal card in this format unbanning Protean Hulk makes total sense as its not something that will casually or accidentally go infinite.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Correct. While a limited and very unscientific test a few years back at Armada Games yielded results that suggested it should stay banned, we more recently did some drop-ins (again, highly unscientific) to see if it broke more casual decks and found that it was strong but not broken. The RC understands that bringing a card off the list is always a tricky proposition, so there's some risk here--but we think that the combination of other extremely strong creatures and quality graveyard hate will put PHulk in the Kokusho category. As one RC member put it during the discussion, "Is Hulk a little outclassed these days?"
Flash-Hulk in EDH requires Grand Architect, Pili-Pala and a way to use the infinite mana like Thrasios, Triton Hero. Else you're looking at 4-colour decks.
The thing that keeps this combo in the realm of not being why it gets banned is that Pili-Palla isn't a card you run if you want to do fair stuff anyway, and you still do require two specific cards on hand and is not a one-card-i-win kind of deal.
4 colors isn't that bad anymore anyway and thrasios, triton hero is a fine commander that would run cards like those anyway since it wins with infinite mana. 4 color boon weaver is a thing that exists and gets much better.
I'm also concerned with the fact that any reasonably creature focused deck with black in it can win the game off getting control of someone else's protean hulk. I like the graveyard and creatures, so I've built maybe more than 3 or 4 decks that can all now accidentally win the game before turn 4.
All I can say is my Selvala deck now has an awesome target to fetch with Birthing Pod when I sac a 6 CMC creature - I was tired of only grabbing Avenger of Zendikar. Value-town will be insane on the next activation lol...
So does anyone have any thoughts on how best to abuse him in non-karador decks? I'm trying to see if he is worth running in decks with UG in them, since those my favorite colors.
So does anyone have any thoughts on how best to abuse him in non-karador decks? I'm trying to see if he is worth running in decks with UG in them, since those my favorite colors.
As long as you play sac outlets you can run him, even if it's as simple as being a part of a Pod chain. Simic only has one combo AFAIK with Hulk - Grand Architect and Pili-Pala. If you're not interested in comboing out, he's very good at just getting some value for your money though without graveyard use he won't be AS good. Still worth tinkering around with - it's never bad to get a free Seedborn Muse out of a deal.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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Or is the reason for it being problematic related to people constantly trying to reanimate/steal/copy it?
I'm just not seeing it. In any deck that cannot immediately sacrifice him, cloning Hulk is merely a good play to protect you from an incoming boardwipe. And that it does pretty well, yet even then, would you choose cloning it over, say, a Rune-Scarred Demon? Because that's what I keep running into. Whenever clones/enemy reanimation are a factor, I keep wondering "Why pick Hulk over many more-immediate impact creatures".
I feel that in that way, it's not all that different from Kokusho. A Chainer deck for example still has a field day with enemy Kokushos, and would do the same with enemy Hulks. A clone-heavy deck would feel much the same. However, in both cases, the Kokusho (Or the Gray Merchant) seems to be more urgent a threat as Protean Hulk will ever be.
And a lot of metas have ramped up on the grave hate too. Between Bojuka Bog, Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Angel of Finality and many others, graves are far from sacred these days. This already helped in freeing Kokusho. It's time it also applied to Hulk.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Both Hulk and T&N should be discussed at the same level. The groupthink and subsequent prejudice should be eliminated. Armada Games isn't the general meta of the world. Armada Games play with league rules in addition to the RC rules, so for this reason I can't see why examples from League games should be valid for general EDH.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Well that's kind of the thing here; most of the arguments you give - and indeed, the article you wrote on it back in summer '16 - used your group as the starting point. Which is why I in turn wonder about a few specifics about the table, especially the state of it which urged you to clone the Hulk and not something more immediately threatening/effective. It also causes people to pull back towards the argument of you seeing your group as representative - perhaps it's in the way your articles are worded. Your perception is that many groups will abuse it, my perception is that usually most abuse tends to have better targets to find. (This is, of course, the whole Other Players On The Table Abuse It part, discounting the Player With Hulk In Deck abuses it)
In the end, the reason I argue in its favor so often is for a large part due to the odd inconsistency versus Tooth and Nail which, again in my perception, ruins a lot more casual games. Your rebuttal tends to be that it sees a lot less abuse - and indeed, opponents have a lot harder time to abuse it. Mostly it doesnt matter as it's game over anyway.
But in the end, PHulk just doesn't have that same "Must Abuse/Copy/Clone NOW" sign hovering above it as it used to do, in parts due to the uptick in exile removal and GY hate - same reason Kokusho right now is a good-but-far-from-broken card.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Directly in response because it is topical to the conversation but certainly any card can be substituted in its place, but do/have other RC members performed similar tests within their playgroups as well. Part of the reason for some stubbornness is because we are only being presented with your findings from your group. I'm drawing a blank right now but I believe that the Kokusho test was conducted in multiple groups, what about Hulk?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Most Karador decks can go infinite quite easily off it, since it'll just fetch Llark/Guide along with Viscera Seer to start the usual infinite chain it already runs.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Reveillark Combo:
When I first started playing Jenara I fumbled around with using a Reveillark combo by using Saffi Eriksdotter in a traditional GW method of executing it. After playing with the list for some time I realized that by utilizing blue you can shortcut the process, use less cards, and execute it much stronger. To start it out you will need Survival of the Fittest in play. Using Survival of the Fittest, move a creature in your hand to be all of the following creatures. You can throw away all of the creatures except for Reveillark into your graveyard so just save him for last and it will work fine. Tutor up Mirror Entity, Body Double, and Acidic Slime in your graveyard with Reveillark in your hand as the last tutor target. This only requires a single creature in hand to get started. Just chain that one creature between them all.
1) Evoke Reveillark into play. It dies and resurrects Mirror Entity and Body Double into play. The Body Double comes in as a copy of Reveillark.
2) Mirror Entity triggers some large number of times... lets say 100 times for 0 mana while retaining priority. Allow the first trigger to resolve and kill your creatures.
3) Body Double dies and triggers the Reveillark ability. Using Reveillark ability you rez Body Double and Acidic Slime into play with Body Double as Reveillark and the slime into play wrecking a target. From here you have the combo rolling and the Body Double replaces a lot of the complicated parts just rezing itself and Acidic Slime over and over. Once you run out of targets for slime to work with rez something else or just opt to keep cycling Body Double as the only rez target until you are out of Mirror Entity triggers. End the last trigger with Mirror Entity + Body Double as a copy of Reveillark and you can kick back into the combo anytime you would like.
Using this method you can also rez Body Double and Karmic Guide if you want. Using the Karmic Guide you can literally rez anything else into play to execute the combo with any ETB creature.
Ooops thats Survival of the Fittest combo..... I kid but only sort of because its really the same combo reskinned. Its uses Viscera Seer + Karmic Guide first loop. Reveillark for the second loop. Then go get anything with 2 or less power that has an ETB / Leaves play effect and you have set up the same. Its more or less the same combo executed in.... a mostly slower way lol. Its a little awkward because if you draw combo pieces you have to get them in play / bin (need a sac outlet still to get going). Its possible that Protean Hulk adds enough consistency to make a Lark combo more consistent but honestly, Lark combo has been a thing for a good long while now due to Survival and to my knowledge its not really used that much so I don't see why Hulk makes any difference in this since its about the same difficulty in executing.
^ stole it from my Ex primer on Jenara
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[Modern] Allies
The thing that keeps this combo in the realm of not being why it gets banned is that Pili-Palla isn't a card you run if you want to do fair stuff anyway, and you still do require two specific cards on hand and is not a one-card-i-win kind of deal.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
This. The secret of this format is in not breaking it.
I agree. I have to assume the reasons it is coming off of the banned list is because it has a lot of non combo uses for which it is just a strong card in a niche archetype. It can be used as a combo card but so can so many others. Its not that fast of a combo and most of the ways to "break" it and go faster you could supplement in a lot of other combos that exist into the same formula.
The reason that it was unbanned was not for those looking for another combo outlet but because of those who want to use it as just a strong value card. From the standpoint that Hermit Druid is still a legal card in this format unbanning Protean Hulk makes total sense as its not something that will casually or accidentally go infinite.
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[Modern] Allies
You can also combo off using Black/Blue/green with cards you would already be running in a graveyard/creature based deck. Like Mikaeus, the unhallowed blood artist Visera seer puppeteer clique phyrexian delver. Those are all good cards reasonable Sidisi, Brood tyrant deck might reasonably use, and adding more of them wouldn't take up that much room.
4 colors isn't that bad anymore anyway and thrasios, triton hero is a fine commander that would run cards like those anyway since it wins with infinite mana. 4 color boon weaver is a thing that exists and gets much better.
I'm also concerned with the fact that any reasonably creature focused deck with black in it can win the game off getting control of someone else's protean hulk. I like the graveyard and creatures, so I've built maybe more than 3 or 4 decks that can all now accidentally win the game before turn 4.
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[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
As long as you play sac outlets you can run him, even if it's as simple as being a part of a Pod chain. Simic only has one combo AFAIK with Hulk - Grand Architect and Pili-Pala. If you're not interested in comboing out, he's very good at just getting some value for your money though without graveyard use he won't be AS good. Still worth tinkering around with - it's never bad to get a free Seedborn Muse out of a deal.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.