I think I agree with this. Most of the options for TnN are fair, even if people use it in conjunction with combos more often. From the RC's philosophy point of view, the card isn't really a serious problem.
Not that this is the right thread, but then explain why 'mostly fair' is okay with T&N, but not for P.Hulk?
No idea, besides the fact that it's easier to do shenanigans with and can tutor (sort-of) any number of creatures versus strictly 2.
I think I agree with this. Most of the options for TnN are fair, even if people use it in conjunction with combos more often. From the RC's philosophy point of view, the card isn't really a serious problem.
Not that this is the right thread, but then explain why 'mostly fair' is okay with T&N, but not for P.Hulk?
No idea, besides the fact that it's easier to do shenanigans with and can tutor (sort-of) any number of creatures versus strictly 2.
Which, when we're looking at "fair" use, is much fairer than pulling any two creatures from the deck vs a total of CMC 6.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I think I agree with this. Most of the options for TnN are fair, even if people use it in conjunction with combos more often. From the RC's philosophy point of view, the card isn't really a serious problem.
Not that this is the right thread, but then explain why 'mostly fair' is okay with T&N, but not for P.Hulk?
No idea, besides the fact that it's easier to do shenanigans with and can tutor (sort-of) any number of creatures versus strictly 2.
Which, when we're looking at "fair" use, is much fairer than pulling any two creatures from the deck vs a total of CMC 6.
I think I agree with this. Most of the options for TnN are fair, even if people use it in conjunction with combos more often. From the RC's philosophy point of view, the card isn't really a serious problem.
Not that this is the right thread, but then explain why 'mostly fair' is okay with T&N, but not for P.Hulk?
No idea, besides the fact that it's easier to do shenanigans with and can tutor (sort-of) any number of creatures versus strictly 2.
Which, when we're looking at "fair" use, is much fairer than pulling any two creatures from the deck vs a total of CMC 6.
Oh, but people won't do that with P-Hulk, 'cause no reason. Only T&N gets broken.
Well if you pull those two, I wonder what you're going to blink.
And if your serious argument involved Karmic Guide instead, then I'd urge you to re-read the several times of how that has been explained before, why infinite combo policing isn't a thing, why just casting P-Hulk won't get you those whereas just casting TnN does, and where the fair uses of TnN FAR outshine those of P-Hulk. But it's okay, no need to read all that when it'll have to get reposted again anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Oh, but people won't do that with P-Hulk, 'cause no reason. Only T&N gets broken.
Well if you pull those two, I wonder what you're going to blink.
And if your serious argument involved Karmic Guide instead, then I'd urge you to re-read the several times of how that has been explained before, why infinite combo policing isn't a thing, why just casting P-Hulk won't get you those whereas just casting TnN does, and where the fair uses of TnN FAR outshine those of P-Hulk. But it's okay, no need to read all that when it'll have to get reposted again anyway.
Karmic guide is what I had meant. Ignoring something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ignoring the fact that Hulk will result in a loop more often than not is, well, foolish. The amount of times Hulk will result in some combo that barfs your deck onto the field will be the same amount that T&N assembles Exodia.
But, hey, I don't really need to prove anything. T&N has survived the life of the format thus far, no reason to think it'll change. I'll just continue playing it the way it should be in EDH.
Oh, but people won't do that with P-Hulk, 'cause no reason. Only T&N gets broken.
Well if you pull those two, I wonder what you're going to blink.
And if your serious argument involved Karmic Guide instead, then I'd urge you to re-read the several times of how that has been explained before, why infinite combo policing isn't a thing, why just casting P-Hulk won't get you those whereas just casting TnN does, and where the fair uses of TnN FAR outshine those of P-Hulk. But it's okay, no need to read all that when it'll have to get reposted again anyway.
Karmic guide is what I had meant. Ignoring something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ignoring the fact that Hulk will result in a loop more often than not is, well, foolish. The amount of times Hulk will result in some combo that barfs your deck onto the field will be the same amount that T&N assembles Exodia.
But, hey, I don't really need to prove anything. T&N has survived the life of the format thus far, no reason to think it'll change. I'll just continue playing it the way it should be in EDH.
I'll continue the ridiculously huge quote box brigade lol...
Anyways, so Karmic+Viscera happens, and you get another 6 CMC of creatures, what's the point? Outside of assembling the Lark+Guide combo engine, is that terrible? Really only decks with GWx scream to me as situations where we'll see 'terrible' amount of combo. If we're regulating Hulk under that circumstance and ignoring fair uses for it, why are we allowed to argue fair use for T&N? The cards can result in the same net result - puking out creatures/wins. Why is one banned and the other not?
If you ignore the fact that T&N needs only 2 pieces to go infinite (And they may be in deck or hand), whereas Hulk needs 1 already on the field and then at least 3 in the deck - and even then they haven't won yet - then yes, T&N and PHulk go into an infinite loop equally often. Except PHulk can only do so in WB and WG, whereas TNN can do so in GR, GB and GU. And that is, again, ignoring the fair uses, where PHulk is a lot more fair as TNN due to the restrictions.
It's simply a lot easier to just slap two pieces that happen to go infinite with TNN into a deck - of which at least 1 card is usually pretty damn good on its own anyway - than it is to fit in a PHulk infinite combo "just like that" due to the amount of cards needed. Which is why the fact that TNN is unbanned and PHulk is banned makes no sense - either TNN should be banned, or they should both be unbanned.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Are we back to the point where someone reminds everyone that Protean Hulk is a creature, and thus easier to find/play/reuse? I don't know about the rest of you, but creatures are usually the cards I see most going in and coming out of graveyards. Creature recursion is incredibly common in three of the five colours. Tooth and Nail may be able to win you the game through finding your two-creature combo of choice, but Protean Hulk gets more value the longer a game goes on. In a lot of games that I've played, I don't think I've seen Tooth and Nail cast more than once. Not even in a game-winning combo way, either, just a getting-big-creatures-on-board way.
I think it's because Tooth and Nail isn't an attractive card to recur. It always seems to be a one-and-done spell, because you won't have the element of surprise the second time. It's too big an investment of mana for its full value, whereas Protean Hulk can be recurred more often, for less effort, in ways that are more difficult to disrupt, with the net result being a stronger board state. I think that's the biggest, and paradoxically, most subtle difference between the two.
I think I agree with this. Most of the options for TnN are fair, even if people use it in conjunction with combos more often. From the RC's philosophy point of view, the card isn't really a serious problem.
Not that this is the right thread, but then explain why 'mostly fair' is okay with T&N, but not for P.Hulk?
No idea, besides the fact that it's easier to do shenanigans with and can tutor (sort-of) any number of creatures versus strictly 2.
Which, when we're looking at "fair" use, is much fairer than pulling any two creatures from the deck vs a total of CMC 6.
I guess if you feel that that difference makes up for the difference in shenaniganery.
Hulk can definitely be used for a wider range of shenanigans, outside iWin combos, than TnN. It can enable a lot of the common value combos, and the fact that it can be so easily recurred from the graveyard does invite abuse of a whole different sort than TnN. I think that has the potential to produce a lot of misery in games, and possibly for some "accidental ruining" of games, but many of the same people who would do truly broken things with it - and pretty much everyone who would pull a iWin with it - are the same people who would abuse TnN. I wouldn't be thrilled to see it come unbanned, but it is probably pretty low on the risk meter. It would probably result in generals like Meren and Karador being hated a lot more than is already the case.
I think I agree with this. Most of the options for TnN are fair, even if people use it in conjunction with combos more often. From the RC's philosophy point of view, the card isn't really a serious problem.
Not that this is the right thread, but then explain why 'mostly fair' is okay with T&N, but not for P.Hulk?
No idea, besides the fact that it's easier to do shenanigans with and can tutor (sort-of) any number of creatures versus strictly 2.
Which, when we're looking at "fair" use, is much fairer than pulling any two creatures from the deck vs a total of CMC 6.
I guess if you feel that that difference makes up for the difference in shenaniganery.
I'd say this whole idea of trying to abuse hulk it is a thing of the past.
It's still an alright clone/reanimation/bribery target, but we have modern haymaker creatures like praetors, avenger, craterhoof, eldrazi, blightsteel, that can just end a player or even a table with little to no support.
And again you're missing an important point; PHulk never does that on it's own. It NEEDS a sac outlet. It NEEDS recursive reanimation. If you don't have both of those moving pieces, shenanigans aren't being done. If you DO have them in place, then I hope you're enjoying your goldfishing or I'll wonder if your opponents are simply drawing blanks to deal with any of those. It's also suspectible to Grave hate - which happens to be a reason why Kokusho got unbanned, the growing prevalence of grave hate.
TNN doesn't need all those shenanigans to immediately center a game around itself, and that's where the problem is for me. It also needs a lot less dedicated deckspace. You can't take any average Green-based EDH deck, slap in a PHulk and expect it to work great. It'll do stuff for you, sure, but unless you've built a GBx deck, it's not going to get abused. GWx has a lot less abusive options going for it, even if it can get pretty far with Hulk. Meanwhile, you can slap TnN into literally every Green deck aside from maybe the hypercompetitive ones (and those won't even look at Hulk anyway) and wouldn't you know it, it'll always get your two best creatures at any point in the game for you.
Immediate impact is a lot more important than long-term-in-a-game impact, simply because there's that many more windows of opportunity to deal with it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
People are giving the same colorful (literally) but invalid argument against the frog. Just because the combo's top of your head doesn't mean you thought it through thoroughly. There's a few hoops to jump through if anyone wishes to abuse the frog. One is assuming you'll always have a sac outlet and playing more than just green. It's the same with Coalition Victory. Do you play with someone who whips out a 5C deck all the time? Even if he plays 5C, do you just assume he plays combo? Do you think your given situation (if even remotely true) translates to the rest of the world? LOL you really can't go far with the color argument...
With T&N, you need no assumption. You only need to cast and entwine T&N to abuse it. Sometimes you don't even hafta entwine.
You mean no one abuses T&N by choosing random creature with Eternal Witness? Be fair to both sides of the coin man... C'mon guys.
People are giving the same colorful (literally) but invalid argument against the frog. Just because the combo's top of your head doesn't mean you thought it through thoroughly. There's a few hoops to jump through if anyone wishes to abuse the frog. One is assuming you'll always have a sac outlet and playing more than just green. It's the same with Coalition Victory. Do you play with someone who whips out a 5C deck all the time? Even if he plays 5C, do you just assume he plays combo? Do you think your given situation (if even remotely true) translates to the rest of the world? LOL you really can't go far with the color argument...
With T&N, you need no assumption. You only need to cast and entwine T&N to abuse it. Sometimes you don't even hafta entwine.
You mean no one abuses T&N by choosing random creature with Eternal Witness? Be fair to both sides of the coin man... C'mon guys.
You mean like the hoops that accompany T&N? Yeah, be fair to both sides of the coin, man.
The same things that stop a PHulk combo are also the same things that stop a T&N combo. Let's be real here. In one of our casual groups, we discussed some banned cards and PHulk came up. Honestly, most of us said it's too low impact to be banned in the current environment simply because Exile-like effects run rampant as well as Grave hate. So I posed the age-old question of what's worse T&N vs PHulk. It was pretty unanimous, the group would rather have T&N. Reasons being that T&N is infinitely harder to recur, it's always a late game play, and its a great way to poop out a couple sweet fatties. 2-3 guys said they'd switch to Karador/Meren more often with PHulk free, most guys said they'd pull it first via Green Sun's Zenith/Natural Order or try and bin it quickly to reanimate early to put pressure on the inevitable wipe. Exactly 4 people said "I'd rather it eat white exile removal than anything else in my deck, so to draw that removal is a win in my book". A couple other guys said it'd just make their decks more efficient, even without a loop.
But, hey, what do we know. We just play games is all.
You mean like the hoops that accompany T&N? Yeah, be fair to both sides of the coin, man.
The same things that stop a PHulk combo are also the same things that stop a T&N combo. Let's be real here. In one of our casual groups, we discussed some banned cards and PHulk came up. Honestly, most of us said it's too low impact to be banned in the current environment simply because Exile-like effects run rampant as well as Grave hate. So I posed the age-old question of what's worse T&N vs PHulk. It was pretty unanimous, the group would rather have T&N. Reasons being that T&N is infinitely harder to recur, it's always a late game play, and its a great way to poop out a couple sweet fatties. 2-3 guys said they'd switch to Karador/Meren more often with PHulk free, most guys said they'd pull it first via Green Sun's Zenith/Natural Order or try and bin it quickly to reanimate early to put pressure on the inevitable wipe. Exactly 4 people said "I'd rather it eat white exile removal than anything else in my deck, so to draw that removal is a win in my book". A couple other guys said it'd just make their decks more efficient, even without a loop.
But, hey, what do we know. We just play games is all.
I like hearing your real world example and how it played out, but I wonder what the result would've been if the question was "Assuming both cards share the same fate, should they be banned or unbanned?"
The funny thing is that TnN can pull up combos that the things that stop PHulk (Grave hate) can't stop. One properly timed piece of grave hate stops PHulk. Now tell me how that stops a Kiki or Deadeye combo?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The funny thing is that TnN can pull up combos that the things that stop PHulk (Grave hate) can't stop. One properly timed piece of grave hate stops PHulk. Now tell me how that stops a Kiki or Deadeye combo?
Assuming TnN is searching up one of these popular combos like Kiki, Deadeye, or Mike-n-Trike...
No idea, besides the fact that it's easier to do shenanigans with and can tutor (sort-of) any number of creatures versus strictly 2.
Which, when we're looking at "fair" use, is much fairer than pulling any two creatures from the deck vs a total of CMC 6.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Until you pull Viscera Seer and Restoration Angel....
Oh, but people won't do that with P-Hulk, 'cause no reason. Only T&N gets broken.
Well if you pull those two, I wonder what you're going to blink.
And if your serious argument involved Karmic Guide instead, then I'd urge you to re-read the several times of how that has been explained before, why infinite combo policing isn't a thing, why just casting P-Hulk won't get you those whereas just casting TnN does, and where the fair uses of TnN FAR outshine those of P-Hulk. But it's okay, no need to read all that when it'll have to get reposted again anyway.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Karmic guide is what I had meant. Ignoring something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ignoring the fact that Hulk will result in a loop more often than not is, well, foolish. The amount of times Hulk will result in some combo that barfs your deck onto the field will be the same amount that T&N assembles Exodia.
But, hey, I don't really need to prove anything. T&N has survived the life of the format thus far, no reason to think it'll change. I'll just continue playing it the way it should be in EDH.
Anyways, so Karmic+Viscera happens, and you get another 6 CMC of creatures, what's the point? Outside of assembling the Lark+Guide combo engine, is that terrible? Really only decks with GWx scream to me as situations where we'll see 'terrible' amount of combo. If we're regulating Hulk under that circumstance and ignoring fair uses for it, why are we allowed to argue fair use for T&N? The cards can result in the same net result - puking out creatures/wins. Why is one banned and the other not?
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
It's simply a lot easier to just slap two pieces that happen to go infinite with TNN into a deck - of which at least 1 card is usually pretty damn good on its own anyway - than it is to fit in a PHulk infinite combo "just like that" due to the amount of cards needed. Which is why the fact that TNN is unbanned and PHulk is banned makes no sense - either TNN should be banned, or they should both be unbanned.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I think it's because Tooth and Nail isn't an attractive card to recur. It always seems to be a one-and-done spell, because you won't have the element of surprise the second time. It's too big an investment of mana for its full value, whereas Protean Hulk can be recurred more often, for less effort, in ways that are more difficult to disrupt, with the net result being a stronger board state. I think that's the biggest, and paradoxically, most subtle difference between the two.
I guess if you feel that that difference makes up for the difference in shenaniganery.
I'd say this whole idea of trying to abuse hulk it is a thing of the past.
It's still an alright clone/reanimation/bribery target, but we have modern haymaker creatures like praetors, avenger, craterhoof, eldrazi, blightsteel, that can just end a player or even a table with little to no support.
TNN doesn't need all those shenanigans to immediately center a game around itself, and that's where the problem is for me. It also needs a lot less dedicated deckspace. You can't take any average Green-based EDH deck, slap in a PHulk and expect it to work great. It'll do stuff for you, sure, but unless you've built a GBx deck, it's not going to get abused. GWx has a lot less abusive options going for it, even if it can get pretty far with Hulk. Meanwhile, you can slap TnN into literally every Green deck aside from maybe the hypercompetitive ones (and those won't even look at Hulk anyway) and wouldn't you know it, it'll always get your two best creatures at any point in the game for you.
Immediate impact is a lot more important than long-term-in-a-game impact, simply because there's that many more windows of opportunity to deal with it.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
With T&N, you need no assumption. You only need to cast and entwine T&N to abuse it. Sometimes you don't even hafta entwine.
You mean no one abuses T&N by choosing random creature with Eternal Witness? Be fair to both sides of the coin man... C'mon guys.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
You mean like the hoops that accompany T&N? Yeah, be fair to both sides of the coin, man.
The same things that stop a PHulk combo are also the same things that stop a T&N combo. Let's be real here. In one of our casual groups, we discussed some banned cards and PHulk came up. Honestly, most of us said it's too low impact to be banned in the current environment simply because Exile-like effects run rampant as well as Grave hate. So I posed the age-old question of what's worse T&N vs PHulk. It was pretty unanimous, the group would rather have T&N. Reasons being that T&N is infinitely harder to recur, it's always a late game play, and its a great way to poop out a couple sweet fatties. 2-3 guys said they'd switch to Karador/Meren more often with PHulk free, most guys said they'd pull it first via Green Sun's Zenith/Natural Order or try and bin it quickly to reanimate early to put pressure on the inevitable wipe. Exactly 4 people said "I'd rather it eat white exile removal than anything else in my deck, so to draw that removal is a win in my book". A couple other guys said it'd just make their decks more efficient, even without a loop.
But, hey, what do we know. We just play games is all.
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Assuming TnN is searching up one of these popular combos like Kiki, Deadeye, or Mike-n-Trike...
Trickbind stops both of them. As does Stifle a lot of the time, and Disallow, and Voidslime, and Stranglehold, and Mindlock Orb, and Shadow of Doubt, and to some degree Aven Mindcensor, and to some degree Leonin Arbiter...