Anyone who says "You can play T&N and not abuse it" is a damn fool. You don't play T&N for fun, it is a game winner. It is not fun to see a single card completely win the game. Never have i seen a game where someone pulls off T&N and then lose. I have seen many other "Game win" cards go off and teh player not win but T&N always wins. Either infinite combo or just getting value that you can abuse (DEN+Duplicant)
Some cards need to be banned, Tooth and Nail is one of those cards and the fact that it has not been banned yet baffles me. What is the RC on to not see how format breaking this card is?
The problem in those cases is the players, not the card. If they aren't running TnN, they probably run other lame, repetitive combos. you don't have to build decks that allow you to abuse a card like that, though. Your idea that people who don't play that way are "damn fools" is itself pretty noxious.
I avoid playing cards that make up an "I win" combo in any deck that has TnN. I don't run Kiki and Conscripts (or a similar creature) or Mike/Trike together in any deck, period, because I don't find those sorts of combos make for fun or memorable games. Sometimes I still win by casting TnN, which I don't consider a bad thing - we are talking about a pretty pricey card to cast, after all - but if I do so, that probably means I already have a good position and TnN is a finisher, and lots of cards can be finishers.
Okay maybe it is just my playgroup that builds T&N to be obnoxious. Seriously, you get one person who is nice, that is fine, you get two or three great. But if you were to put the RC with a few players form my Playgroup, T&N will be banned after that session. GUARANTEED.
I'm pretty sure the RC has run into plenty of players who insist on breaking this easily-broken format through playing powerful but painfully familiar combos, and if they haven't been impressed enough by the stunts they've seen to this point, I would be surprised if one more group of cutthroat players really blew their minds.
I gotta admit it was kind of cute to see a fairly young player recently who got hold of his dad's cards and apparently figured out on his own that Elvish Archdruid + Staff of Domination was crazy good in his tossed-together elf deck, but seriously, how can long-time players still find any amusement value in doing Mike/Trike or Kiki/Conscripts or Palinchron/Deadeye stunts at this point?
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion is a big one. Avenger of Zendikar + Craterhoof Behemoth is also not an uncommon win given an already preexisting boardstate.
See the thing is, not every game has blue players. And not every game everyone has some piece of insta-speed spot removal open in case of TnN. How many counters + spot removal cards must one play just to be shielded vs TnN? Also it's not all that uncommon here anymore to see it get cast behind a Grand Abolisher or Dragonlord Dromoka...
Also I just got back from playing a game vs a Karametra elves deck with my Karador deck. Now, my Karador packs Elesh Norn, Massacre Wurm, Demon of Dark Schemes, and a selection of boardwipes along with a few spot removal cards. Should be enough right? Well it wasn't, I had to spend a lot of time keeping his Mirari's Wake/Zendikar Resurgent dead the moment I could and just didn't draw into any of those effects. Once I finally had the setup to pull off a Massacre Wurm + Restoration Angel the next turn, he just Tooth and Nailed for AvengerHoof with 8 preexisting elves. Yes. Such fun. Woopteefreakingdoo.
I would like to start saying that I am speaking of TnN in multiplayer play. For 1vs1 I play DuelCommander (French), where TnN is just a bad card.
The Mikaeus + Triskelion combo. Isn't it possible to kill Mikaeus? If they are both on the board, Triskelion would just end up dealing 4 damage? Seems quite unimpressive. Maybe I am reading something wrong on the cards though. But it seems one instant speed removal will do the job.
My point is, if someone wins the game with an effect that can be easily interrupted. Then IMO its not effects fault, its the other decks/players. Say someone at my playgroup is close to nine mana (for TnN with entwine). I would now use a tutor for either Beast Within or something like that, because I know what might be coming up soon. And if I dont have an answer, one of the other two players might have. If you dont play like this, its basically your own fault if you lose, IMO.
I seriously think that it would be a bad idea to ban TnN just because some people doesnt find it fun to play counterspells or instant speed removal. If TnN bothers people that much, then just make a "house banlist".
I'm pretty sure the RC has run into plenty of players who insist on breaking this easily-broken format through playing powerful but painfully familiar combos, and if they haven't been impressed enough by the stunts they've seen to this point, I would be surprised if one more group of cutthroat players really blew their minds.
I gotta admit it was kind of cute to see a fairly young player recently who got hold of his dad's cards and apparently figured out on his own that Elvish Archdruid + Staff of Domination was crazy good in his tossed-together elf deck, but seriously, how can long-time players still find any amusement value in doing Mike/Trike or Kiki/Conscripts or Palinchron/Deadeye stunts at this point?
Because people like me exist. I am a spike/johnny. So to me the combo I am getting through doesnt matter much. What matters is how I manage to get it through. To find that little loop hole every game where I have a shot at winning. Thats what gives me the kicks. I dont care if I play doomsday or TnN to win, they are just the win conditions. So the amusement isnt playing TnN, its pushing the board(be it STAX, Reanimator or whatever) so much, or seeing the other players fall into your traps that gives people like me amusement.
And off-topic why are people even considering banning TnN in a format where its possible to play Leovold with Doomsday combo. I like tasigur for now, but Leovold + Doomsday seems to be far more broken than TnN. Actually even Doomsday without Leovold seems more broken than any TnN deck. To clarify, Leovold provides built in protection for Laboratory Maniac which is huge
I asked you this; how many spot removal/counterspells does one need to stuff in their deck? And why is it that Tooth and Nail is one of the very few cards who demands you always keep open some mana from the moment the Green player hits 9? There are no other cards currently in commander that win on the spot for 9 mana on an empty boardstate. None. Zip. Nada. Nilch. Tooth and Nail does. But yes, I suppose I could just not play anything on the board myself from turn 5 on just because I need to keep insta-removal handy for TnN. Oh, and that's discounting a possible Grand Abolisher effect.
And people play TnN because you can jam it into a lot of decks without issue. At worst, you need to dedicate 3 slots to an iWin combo, and usually most of those slots are dedicated to cards that are good on their own. Leovold is a huge red flag on it's own (Unlike, say, Radha, Heir of Keld) because it's so good. Doomsday requires a deck to be built around it. The purpose of the banlist is to moderate those cards that are amazing in casual lists and can be slotted in without needing a whole deck makeover. None of the Leovold-based cards fulfill that checkmark. TnN does.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Yeah, it's very true that nobody makes a dickish Leovold (is there another type? I've never seen it) deck by accident. It's very obvious what you're doing when you build the decks that make people hate Leovold. The problem is, it's also very tempting. He's an evil little elf, no question about it.
I have to admit, the last time I cast Tooth and Nail during a game (a couple nights ago), I did essentially win on the spot. But the funny thing was, I didn't even cast it with Entwine. I just cast it when Possibility Storm was in play, so TnN did nothing except lead into Primal Surge, which put 40+ cards onto the battlefield before stopping at the one other non-permanent spell in my Ruric Thar deck (Genesis Wave). Those 40+ cards included Warstorm Surge, Fires of Yavimaya, Hellrider and a bunch of fatties, along with an equipment or two, several lands and an assortment of mana dorks, and when combined with what I already had on the board, that made for game over.
My point is, crazy things happen when people start casting expensive spells, and that is kind of the point of the format. I don't run any specific "I win" creature combos in that deck (though it is one of the few decks in which I still run Craterhoof Behemoth, so it is likely that TnN will be a finisher if I have any significant board state), but in this case, another crazy-powerful, high-CMC spell was the culprit. Does that make Primal Surge a bad card, and if TnN goes, does Surge become the next boogeyman?
I've said it before, and I think it worth repeating. If Tooth and Nail is one of the cards that people most worry about ruining games, I consider that a sign that the format is in pretty good shape.
I would like to start saying that I am speaking of TnN in multiplayer play. For 1vs1 I play DuelCommander (French), where TnN is just a bad card.
The Mikaeus + Triskelion combo. Isn't it possible to kill Mikaeus? If they are both on the board, Triskelion would just end up dealing 4 damage? Seems quite unimpressive. Maybe I am reading something wrong on the cards though. But it seems one instant speed removal will do the job.
...
You've got a large quote there, but only one section bugged me enough to point it out.
'One instant speed removal' is NOT enough to do the job...you are in serious error on this, sir. First let me walk you through the combo:
Mikaeus in play, Triskelion drops(with 3 +1/+1 counters), making it, buffs and all, a 5/5(+1/+1 from Mikaeus, 3 counters, base 1/1).
1 of Trike's counters are shot at someone else(2 counters left, 4/4); the last two counters are shot to itself(2/2 with 2 damage; lethal). Trike now goes to the graveyard.
Mike's undying on Trike triggers: Trike comes back now as a 6/6(+1/+1 from Mike, 4 counters, base 1/1).
Trike fires 2 counters at target, 2 counters at self. Trike goes to graveyard; Undying triggers.
Repeat Ad Nauseum.
Now, keep in mind that all of this can be done at instant speed as well. As in, if you wrath the board, I can simply respond with this combo infinitely(or enough to kill you and stop the wrath from happening[confirm?]). So...you decide to swords Mike...and I end the game(or yours).
The most common(though by no means the only) way to STOP this combo(and that's assuming no Grand Abolisher/Dosan/dragonlord effects, is to Grip Trike. Split second is the ONLY real way to stop this combo, which is why it's so feared and prominently displayed as one of T&N's boogeymen. But even then, the timing has to be done the INSTANT it hits the board, while Trike still has +1/+1 counters on, or else you just wasted a good card.
I would like to start saying that I am speaking of TnN in multiplayer play. For 1vs1 I play DuelCommander (French), where TnN is just a bad card.
The Mikaeus + Triskelion combo. Isn't it possible to kill Mikaeus? If they are both on the board, Triskelion would just end up dealing 4 damage? Seems quite unimpressive. Maybe I am reading something wrong on the cards though. But it seems one instant speed removal will do the job.
...
You've got a large quote there, but only one section bugged me enough to point it out.
'One instant speed removal' is NOT enough to do the job...you are in serious error on this, sir. First let me walk you through the combo:
Mikaeus in play, Triskelion drops(with 3 +1/+1 counters), making it, buffs and all, a 5/5(+1/+1 from Mikaeus, 3 counters, base 1/1).
1 of Trike's counters are shot at someone else(2 counters left, 4/4); the last two counters are shot to itself(2/2 with 2 damage; lethal). Trike now goes to the graveyard.
Mike's undying on Trike triggers: Trike comes back now as a 6/6(+1/+1 from Mike, 4 counters, base 1/1).
Trike fires 2 counters at target, 2 counters at self. Trike goes to graveyard; Undying triggers.
Repeat Ad Nauseum.
Now, keep in mind that all of this can be done at instant speed as well. As in, if you wrath the board, I can simply respond with this combo infinitely(or enough to kill you and stop the wrath from happening[confirm?]). So...you decide to swords Mike...and I end the game(or yours).
The only way to STOP this combo(and that's assuming no Grand Abolisher/Dosan/dragonlord effects, is to Grip Trike. Split second is the ONLY real way to stop this combo, which is why it's so feared and prominently displayed as one of T&N's boogeymen. But even then, the timing has to be done the INSTANT it hits the board, while Trike still has +1/+1 counters on, or else you just wasted a good card.
Except that isn't true. You can flash in Grave Hate wth the Undying trigger on the stack (Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog or flash in an Agent of Erebos). You can also Swords Mikeaus while Triskelion is in the graveyard. You could even Stifle the last counter removal targeting itself so it lives as a 2/2 with 1 damage marked on it.
These obviously require the Mike/Trike player to make the first move but to say there is only one way to deal with the combo is hyperbolic, outright wrong, and misleading if the idea is to have a real conversation about the card at hand.
I am not suggesting these answers are enough to say that it isn't a problem (though I think they help immensely) but to have a real conversation these options need to be acknowledged.
....
Except that isn't true. You can flash in Grave Hate wth the Undying trigger on the stack (Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog or flash in an Agent of Erebos). You can also Swords Mikeaus while Triskelion is in the graveyard. You could even Stifle the last counter removal targeting itself so it lives as a 2/2 with 1 damage marked on it.
These obviously require the Mike/Trike player to make the first move but to say there is only one way to deal with the combo is hyperbolic, outright wrong, and misleading if the idea is to have a real conversation about the card at hand.
I am not suggesting these answers are enough to say that it isn't a problem (though I think they help immensely) but to have a real conversation these options need to be acknowledged.
I'm sure we could go all day with how many different, nuanced, niche ways there are to deal with combos like this one. Admittedly, I shouldn't have said it's the ONLY way(which I will edit in my original post), but it will be, most often, the only commonly known way. Part of the appeal with EDH is the relaxed 'timing response' to triggers and such, after all.
I would like to start saying that I am speaking of TnN in multiplayer play. For 1vs1 I play DuelCommander (French), where TnN is just a bad card.
The Mikaeus + Triskelion combo. Isn't it possible to kill Mikaeus? If they are both on the board, Triskelion would just end up dealing 4 damage? Seems quite unimpressive. Maybe I am reading something wrong on the cards though. But it seems one instant speed removal will do the job.
...
You've got a large quote there, but only one section bugged me enough to point it out.
'One instant speed removal' is NOT enough to do the job...you are in serious error on this, sir. First let me walk you through the combo:
Mikaeus in play, Triskelion drops(with 3 +1/+1 counters), making it, buffs and all, a 5/5(+1/+1 from Mikaeus, 3 counters, base 1/1).
1 of Trike's counters are shot at someone else(2 counters left, 4/4); the last two counters are shot to itself(2/2 with 2 damage; lethal). Trike now goes to the graveyard.
Mike's undying on Trike triggers: Trike comes back now as a 6/6(+1/+1 from Mike, 4 counters, base 1/1).
Trike fires 2 counters at target, 2 counters at self. Trike goes to graveyard; Undying triggers.
Repeat Ad Nauseum.
Now, keep in mind that all of this can be done at instant speed as well. As in, if you wrath the board, I can simply respond with this combo infinitely(or enough to kill you and stop the wrath from happening[confirm?]). So...you decide to swords Mike...and I end the game(or yours).
The only way to STOP this combo(and that's assuming no Grand Abolisher/Dosan/dragonlord effects, is to Grip Trike. Split second is the ONLY real way to stop this combo, which is why it's so feared and prominently displayed as one of T&N's boogeymen. But even then, the timing has to be done the INSTANT it hits the board, while Trike still has +1/+1 counters on, or else you just wasted a good card.
Since you were so adamant to point out how he was WRONG, I'll do the same to you.
A well timed Sudden Spoiling can be hilarious. There's cards that shut off abilites. The list keeps going.
My opinion has only slightly changed on T&N. It shouldn't be treated any different than 'Hulk, you have to "break it" to break it, and it has totally fair applications.
I'd suggest you do a little more research before telling somebody how WRONG they are...
Edit: Nath'd. However, how are those "niche"? One can be in the command zone, and is actually pretty popular. Most of the others are usually heavily played. Swords to Plowsharez is niche? Tomrod's Crypt is niche? Stifle effects, I'll agree are niche, but those others are something you should be building into your deck. I mean, if your not, then you are losing to almost all GY strategies, not just Mike/Trike.
'One instant speed removal' is NOT enough to do the job...you are in serious error on this, sir. First let me walk you through the combo:
Mikaeus in play, Triskelion drops(with 3 +1/+1 counters), making it, buffs and all, a 5/5(+1/+1 from Mikaeus, 3 counters, base 1/1).
1 of Trike's counters are shot at someone else(2 counters left, 4/4); the last two counters are shot to itself(2/2 with 2 damage; lethal). Trike now goes to the graveyard.
Mike's undying on Trike triggers: Trike comes back now as a 6/6(+1/+1 from Mike, 4 counters, base 1/1).
Trike fires 2 counters at target, 2 counters at self. Trike goes to graveyard; Undying triggers.
Repeat Ad Nauseum.
Now, keep in mind that all of this can be done at instant speed as well. As in, if you wrath the board, I can simply respond with this combo infinitely(or enough to kill you and stop the wrath from happening[confirm?]). So...you decide to swords Mike...and I end the game(or yours).
The most common(though by no means the only) way to STOP this combo(and that's assuming no Grand Abolisher/Dosan/dragonlord effects, is to Grip Trike. Split second is the ONLY real way to stop this combo, which is why it's so feared and prominently displayed as one of T&N's boogeymen. But even then, the timing has to be done the INSTANT it hits the board, while Trike still has +1/+1 counters on, or else you just wasted a good card.
Although WizardMN already mentioned it, I thought I'd pop in real quick and elaborate on why this isn't true. One instant speed removal spell is all that's necessary in order to disrupt the MikeTrike combo. You just have to respond to either Triskelion's last activation or Mikaeus's undying trigger.
To illustrate:
Fred casts Tooth and Nail, putting Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion onto the battlefield.
Fred removes a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion and activates its ability, targeting Jenny. Triskelion is now a 4/4 (2/2 with two +1/+1 counter on it). Triskelion's ability resolves. Jenny is dealt 1 damage.
Fred removes another +1/+1 counter from Triskelion and activates ability again, this time targeting Triskelion. Triskelion is now a 3/3 (2/2 with one +1/+1 counter on it). Triskelion's ability resolves. Triskelion is dealt 1 damage. Triskelion is now a 3/3 (2/2 with one +1/+1 counter on it) with 1 damage marked on it.
Fred removes Triskelion's last counter and activates its ability a third time, targeting Triskelion again. Triskelion is now a 2/2 with no +1/+1 counters and 1 damage marked on it.
Jenny responds to Triskelion's ability by casting Swords to Plowshares targeting Triskelion.
Fred cannot further develop his combo because Triskelion no longer has any +1/+1 counters on it for him to remove. Jenny's Swords to Plowshares resolves. Triskelion is exiled, and the combo is broken.
Fred casts Tooth and Nail, putting Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion onto the battlefield.
Fred removes a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion and activates its ability, targeting Jenny. Triskelion is now a 4/4 (2/2 with two +1/+1 counter on it). Triskelion's ability resolves. Jenny is dealt 1 damage.
Fred removes another +1/+1 counter from Triskelion and activates ability again, this time targeting Triskelion. Triskelion is now a 3/3 (2/2 with one +1/+1 counter on it). Triskelion's ability resolves. Triskelion is dealt 1 damage. Triskelion is now a 3/3 (2/2 with one +1/+1 counter on it) with 1 damage marked on it.
Fred removes Triskelion's last counter and activates its ability a third time, targeting Triskelion again. Triskelion is now a 2/2 with no +1/+1 counters and 1 damage marked on it. Triskelion's ability resolves. Triskelion is dealt 1 damage. Triskelion is now a 2/2 with 2 damage marked on it. Triskelion is put into its owner's graveyard the next time state based effects are checked. Triskelion's undying ability triggers.
In response to the undying trigger, Jenny casts Swords to Plowshares targeting Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Fred cannot continue his combo because Triskelion is not on the battlefield. Swords to Plowshares resolves, exiling Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Triskelion's undying trigger resolves. Triskelion returns to the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter on it.
Fred cannot further develop his combo because Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is no longer on the battlefield. Fred's combo is broken.
Any kind of removal spell targeting Mikaeus at the appropriate time will work. It doesn't necessarily have to be Swords to Plowshares.
Just to echo this even further, we are talking about this interaction having to be passed through 3+ players without disruption. I sometimes wonder if folks are looking at these interactions through a 1v1 lens, and if that's the case, the banlist is never going to satisfy them.
Just to echo this even further, we are talking about this interaction having to be passed through 3+ players without disruption. I sometimes wonder if folks are looking at these interactions through a 1v1 lens, and if that's the case, the banlist is never going to satisfy them.
And even then you're banking on one of those players have an instant-removal spell available at all times from the moment the Gx player hits 9 mana. At which point you might've aimed that Reality Shift on an Avacyn already, or that Swords to Plowshares hit a Sheoldred. You're also expecting those three players to always keep mana open just in case. That's the kind of chokehold you're expecting people to work through constantly. Which gets tiring really fast, once multiple people start to pack TnN into iWin in their decks.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Sorry that my experiences don't cover all the timings and uses of given cards. That(my example) IS the most common way used to stop Mike/Trike in my two groups. I'm glad that all of you have had different experiences and are quick to share them with us to broaden our horizons.
And even then you're banking on one of those players have an instant-removal spell available at all times from the moment the Gx player hits 9 mana. At which point you might've aimed that Reality Shift on an Avacyn already, or that Swords to Plowshares hit a Sheoldred. You're also expecting those three players to always keep mana open just in case. That's the kind of chokehold you're expecting people to work through constantly. Which gets tiring really fast, once multiple people start to pack TnN into iWin in their decks.
And once again, the problem here isn't TnN. The problem is the mindset of people playing iWin combos in the first place, and being so competitive that their primary concern is just winning in whatever broken manner is available to them. If that's the way they are, banning TnN won't stop them from playing that way, it will just make them do it with other stupid combos. They'll play miserable Leovold decks, or miserable Derevi decks, or Hermit Druid combo fests, or whatever. The format and its rules are explicitly not designed to combat that mindset; it is recognized that doing so is an exercise in futility.
There are in fact already tools in place to manage this without expanding the banned list. If you know a player plays this sort of combo, dedicate yourself to putting him out of the game before he gets to 9 mana. Or exercise the "social contract" aspect of the format, talk about the sorts of games you'd like to play in, and encourage him or her to play something that the rest of the table doesn't find tedious.
Sorry that my experiences don't cover all the timings and uses of given cards. That(my example) IS the most common way used to stop Mike/Trike in my two groups. I'm glad that all of you have had different experiences and are quick to share them with us to broaden our horizons.
So do we agree that one instant speed removal is enough?
And this is the perfect example why poll votes on bans shouldnt be taken seriously. We simply cannot let players like this guy get a vote (please dont take too much offence) on what should be banned and what shouldn't.
To LouCypher: I dont agree at all with you that you cant do anything from turn 5 to turn 9 just in case someone has TnN. And in my playgroup we all play blue for a reason. Because its the best color, end of story. If you wanna play karador, by all means do so. But I dont like the idea that if a specific commander can't stop TnN then TnN should be banned. For the record I play 7 instant speed removals that can stop whatever creatures TnN hits and 11 counterspells that can stop TnN from being cast in my Tasigur deck. In my playgroup that is just the way it is. It is what is needed if I wanna have a chance against Breya, Ydris and Atraxa which are my opponents at the moment. I dont cry when Breya goes infinite mana and wins, thats part of the game.
I am still not sure whether you are talking about 1v1 traditional commander or multiplayer though. I think that might make a difference. Again, I dont play 1v1 traditional commander (for obvious reasons), only Duel Commander and multiplayer commander.
Oh and btw, if we should look at an OP card we should look at Mana Drain. Dear god. Everytime I cast that card I gain such an advantage its crazy.
And even then you're banking on one of those players have an instant-removal spell available at all times from the moment the Gx player hits 9 mana. At which point you might've aimed that Reality Shift on an Avacyn already, or that Swords to Plowshares hit a Sheoldred. You're also expecting those three players to always keep mana open just in case. That's the kind of chokehold you're expecting people to work through constantly. Which gets tiring really fast, once multiple people start to pack TnN into iWin in their decks.
And once again, the problem here isn't TnN. The problem is the mindset of people playing iWin combos in the first place, and being so competitive that their primary concern is just winning in whatever broken manner is available to them. If that's the way they are, banning TnN won't stop them from playing that way, it will just make them do it with other stupid combos. They'll play miserable Leovold decks, or miserable Derevi decks, or Hermit Druid combo fests, or whatever. The format and its rules are explicitly not designed to combat that mindset; it is recognized that doing so is an exercise in futility.
There are in fact already tools in place to manage this without expanding the banned list. If you know a player plays this sort of combo, dedicate yourself to putting him out of the game before he gets to 9 mana. Or exercise the "social contract" aspect of the format, talk about the sorts of games you'd like to play in, and encourage him or her to play something that the rest of the table doesn't find tedious.
The problem with this argument is that it can be applied to a lot of cards on the ban list.
Why does tooth and nail get special treatment and stay unbanned while a good number of cards on the banlist meet the same criteria?
Sorry that my experiences don't cover all the timings and uses of given cards. That(my example) IS the most common way used to stop Mike/Trike in my two groups. I'm glad that all of you have had different experiences and are quick to share them with us to broaden our horizons.
So do we agree that one instant speed removal is enough?
And this is the perfect example why poll votes on bans shouldnt be taken seriously. We simply cannot let players like this guy get a vote (please dont take too much offence) on what should be banned and what shouldn't.
To LouCypher: I dont agree at all with you that you cant do anything from turn 5 to turn 9 just in case someone has TnN. And in my playgroup we all play blue for a reason. Because its the best color, end of story. If you wanna play karador, by all means do so. But I dont like the idea that if a specific commander can't stop TnN then TnN should be banned. For the record I play 7 instant speed removals that can stop whatever creatures TnN hits and 11 counterspells that can stop TnN from being cast in my Tasigur deck. In my playgroup that is just the way it is. It is what is needed if I wanna have a chance against Breya, Ydris and Atraxa which are my opponents at the moment. I dont cry when Breya goes infinite mana and wins, thats part of the game.
I am still not sure whether you are talking about 1v1 traditional commander or multiplayer though. I think that might make a difference. Again, I dont play 1v1 traditional commander (for obvious reasons), only Duel Commander and multiplayer commander.
Oh and btw, if we should look at an OP card we should look at Mana Drain. Dear god. Everytime I cast that card I gain such an advantage its crazy.
I play multiplayer commander. And your argument already kind of invalidates your part of the discussion - no disrespect - as you say "everyone plays blue because it's the best colour". Which means your group falls into a far more competitive metric than most commander players (And I'd like to argue my group already does, so...take that for what you will.) Commander is supposed to be a casual game in which people can play the commanders they like, not being forced into playing the commanders that are always the best due to their colour identity. "Everyone must play Blue or always face losing to broken stuff" is not what was intended for the format, and thus, is not what the banlist is tailored for.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I play multiplayer commander. And your argument already kind of invalidates your part of the discussion - no disrespect - as you say "everyone plays blue because it's the best colour". Which means your group falls into a far more competitive metric than most commander players (And I'd like to argue my group already does, so...take that for what you will.) Commander is supposed to be a casual game in which people can play the commanders they like, not being forced into playing the commanders that are always the best due to their colour identity. "Everyone must play Blue or always face losing to broken stuff" is not what was intended for the format, and thus, is not what the banlist is tailored for.
You are right on the casual part. But where I disagree with the banning of this card is this. Lets say its the "best" card in multiplayer EDH, when it gets banned, are we then gonna ban Doomsday next (as I said before I find Doomsday to be a better card than TnN)? We will end up just banning about every card in the format at some point then. I would much rather like to see players make a house banning for TnN if they find it too OP. The official banlist should IMO only contain really broken cards such as Emrakul, LoA and so on because as you said, its a casual format. In my group we have house rules anyway, so making a house banlist wouldnt be too much of a deal.
Anyway, it doesnt seem like we are going to agree on this. But just to be clear, you dont have to play blue to answer TnN.
And even then you're banking on one of those players have an instant-removal spell available at all times from the moment the Gx player hits 9 mana. At which point you might've aimed that Reality Shift on an Avacyn already, or that Swords to Plowshares hit a Sheoldred. You're also expecting those three players to always keep mana open just in case. That's the kind of chokehold you're expecting people to work through constantly. Which gets tiring really fast, once multiple people start to pack TnN into iWin in their decks.
And once again, the problem here isn't TnN. The problem is the mindset of people playing iWin combos in the first place, and being so competitive that their primary concern is just winning in whatever broken manner is available to them. If that's the way they are, banning TnN won't stop them from playing that way, it will just make them do it with other stupid combos. They'll play miserable Leovold decks, or miserable Derevi decks, or Hermit Druid combo fests, or whatever. The format and its rules are explicitly not designed to combat that mindset; it is recognized that doing so is an exercise in futility.
There are in fact already tools in place to manage this without expanding the banned list. If you know a player plays this sort of combo, dedicate yourself to putting him out of the game before he gets to 9 mana. Or exercise the "social contract" aspect of the format, talk about the sorts of games you'd like to play in, and encourage him or her to play something that the rest of the table doesn't find tedious.
The problem with this argument is that it can be applied to a lot of cards on the ban list.
Why does tooth and nail get special treatment and stay unbanned while a good number of cards on the banlist meet the same criteria?
The banned list explicitly doesn't try to police all the things that can be broken with a broken mindset, but it does include some cards that are the very worst offenders, and which can be too easily broken without a person trying to be overly competitive (Prime Time is a good example). Honestly, though, I don't agree with you that the same argument can be applied to a lot of the cards on the banned list. Possibly Protean Hulk, which is very similar, but which can be tutored for much more easily in G by virtue of being a creature, and possibly Gifts Ungiven, but which is arguably more problematic for reasons which have been adequately covered in other threads. That's really about it. Pretty much everything else on there is broken for other reasons. No argument one can make for TnN applies to things like Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Balance or Worldfire.
And this is the perfect example why poll votes on bans shouldnt be taken seriously.
I actually think poll votes are sort of useful. If they get enough votes, they do a good job representing how the general public feels about a card. Should those votes be used for anything other than a measurement of public perception? No, of course not, but measuring public perception, regardless of how qualified the public may be to evaluate such things, is still valuable.
Having said that, I do think that polls become rather worthless if they never close. If this thread is going to be bumped for years and years and years, mixing new votes with the old ones doesn't really portray public perception all that accurately.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
And even then you're banking on one of those players have an instant-removal spell available at all times from the moment the Gx player hits 9 mana. At which point you might've aimed that Reality Shift on an Avacyn already, or that Swords to Plowshares hit a Sheoldred. You're also expecting those three players to always keep mana open just in case. That's the kind of chokehold you're expecting people to work through constantly. Which gets tiring really fast, once multiple people start to pack TnN into iWin in their decks.
And once again, the problem here isn't TnN. The problem is the mindset of people playing iWin combos in the first place, and being so competitive that their primary concern is just winning in whatever broken manner is available to them. If that's the way they are, banning TnN won't stop them from playing that way, it will just make them do it with other stupid combos. They'll play miserable Leovold decks, or miserable Derevi decks, or Hermit Druid combo fests, or whatever. The format and its rules are explicitly not designed to combat that mindset; it is recognized that doing so is an exercise in futility.
There are in fact already tools in place to manage this without expanding the banned list. If you know a player plays this sort of combo, dedicate yourself to putting him out of the game before he gets to 9 mana. Or exercise the "social contract" aspect of the format, talk about the sorts of games you'd like to play in, and encourage him or her to play something that the rest of the table doesn't find tedious.
The problem with this argument is that it can be applied to a lot of cards on the ban list.
Why does tooth and nail get special treatment and stay unbanned while a good number of cards on the banlist meet the same criteria?
The banned list explicitly doesn't try to police all the things that can be broken with a broken mindset, but it does include some cards that are the very worst offenders, and which can be too easily broken without a person trying to be overly competitive (Prime Time is a good example). Honestly, though, I don't agree with you that the same argument can be applied to a lot of the cards on the banned list. Possibly Protean Hulk, which is very similar, but which can be tutored for much more easily in G by virtue of being a creature, and possibly Gifts Ungiven, but which is arguably more problematic for reasons which have been adequately covered in other threads. That's really about it. Pretty much everything else on there is broken for other reasons. No argument one can make for TnN applies to things like Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Balance or Worldfire.
But tooth and nail is one of the worst offenders.
It just screams two card combo by searching for two cards. The card's design pushes players to do unfun things.
Tooth and nail's design does not push people towards "I will search for two value creatures for fun". That's the non-intuitive use case that you have to build carefully to use.
To have gifts and protean hulk banned while letting tooth and nail ruin games just seems like a cruel joke. Protean hulk has already been eclipsed in game ruining power by cards like avenger of zendikar, consecrated sphinx, and craterhoof behemoth, and gifts is just one of a ton of different tutor effects that are all otherwise deemed perfectly fine.
It just screams two card combo by searching for two cards. The card's design pushes players to do unfun things.
Tooth and nail's design does not push people towards "I will search for two value creatures for fun". That's the non-intuitive use case that you have to build carefully to use.
That's ridiculous, and not even close to true. The card doesn't make people do anything. People make their own choices, based on their own personalities, their own attitudes and their own approach to the format.
Seriously, take responsibility for the choices you make as a player, rather than blaming them on the cards.
To have gifts and protean hulk banned while letting tooth and nail ruin games just seems like a cruel joke. Protean hulk has already been eclipsed in game ruining power by cards like avenger of zendikar, consecrated sphinx, and craterhoof behemoth, and gifts is just one of a ton of different tutor effects that are all otherwise deemed perfectly fine.
The lack of consistency is infuriating.
You might consider looking into anger management classes if your perspective on cards or on the banned list causes you to become infuriated. I don't know where you live, otherwise I'd try to offer you a referral.
It just screams two card combo by searching for two cards. The card's design pushes players to do unfun things.
Tooth and nail's design does not push people towards "I will search for two value creatures for fun". That's the non-intuitive use case that you have to build carefully to use.
That's ridiculous, and not even close to true. The card doesn't make people do anything. People make their own choices, based on their own personalities, their own attitudes and their own approach to the format.
Seriously, take responsibility for the choices you make as a player, rather than blaming them on the cards.
To have gifts and protean hulk banned while letting tooth and nail ruin games just seems like a cruel joke. Protean hulk has already been eclipsed in game ruining power by cards like avenger of zendikar, consecrated sphinx, and craterhoof behemoth, and gifts is just one of a ton of different tutor effects that are all otherwise deemed perfectly fine.
The lack of consistency is infuriating.
You might consider looking into anger management classes if your perspective on cards or on the banned list causes you to become infuriated. I don't know where you live, otherwise I'd try to offer you a referral.
It's naive to think that players cannot be pushed towards building decks a certain way by card wordings. Tutors that search for multiple cards push people towards searching for cards that combo together. That's WHY this card is so controversial in the first place. If the default use case was getting some value for 9 mana, would 40% of players according to the poll really be calling for an outright ban?
Acting like this is somehow my fault that other people are playing tooth and nail to combo off is absurd beyond words. How am I supposed to take responsibility for someone else including tooth and nail and searched for a game ending combination of creatures? I don't even know what you are trying to communicate with that.
And then trying to dismiss an argument because I point out that the ban list being inconsistent is annoying? Try to come up with actual arguments.
When people use TnN to combo off, that is indeed their responsibility, their choice. They can choose to build that way, or not. If they choose to build that way, yes, that's kind of broken, or at very least tedious and unoriginal, but nothing forces them to do that. The wording of the card does not say "grab your combo win and put it directly into play." Nothing forces players to do that, or to even include iWin combos in their decks in the first place. Those choices are on those players. Unfortunately, a lot of players - competitive-minded ones, especially - do choose to do that, and a lot of players either see that as not the right kind of broken, or simply don't like playing against that at all. But in each case, that is on the players who build and play in that manner, not the card, and if you're one of those players, you're part of the problem. If you're not playing that way and don't like when people play that way, utilize the social contract aspect of the format and point out that building with broken combos in mind and using TnN to fetch some instant win combo is really not the sort of game you'd prefer to play. I've done that frequently. When someone tutors for Mike and Trike, I sarcastically say something along the lines of "gee that was original and exciting," and assuming nobody shuts it down, I scoop and shuffle up for the next game while asking the MikeTriker if he has any other decks, or would perhaps want to borrow one of mine for the next game. If he insists on playing that same deck, during the next game I am on guard and do my best to keep him from pulling off that combo. I might, for example, switch to my Glissa deck, tutor for Jester's Cap and exile TnN, Mike and something else that can be use for lame combo wins.
As to dismissing your arguments, when they are based on finding something "infuriating," I do tend to dismiss such arguments as being based on excessive emotionality.
It just screams two card combo by searching for two cards. The card's design pushes players to do unfun things.
Tooth and nail's design does not push people towards "I will search for two value creatures for fun". That's the non-intuitive use case that you have to build carefully to use.
That's ridiculous, and not even close to true. The card doesn't make people do anything. People make their own choices, based on their own personalities, their own attitudes and their own approach to the format.
Seriously, take responsibility for the choices you make as a player, rather than blaming them on the cards.
To have gifts and protean hulk banned while letting tooth and nail ruin games just seems like a cruel joke. Protean hulk has already been eclipsed in game ruining power by cards like avenger of zendikar, consecrated sphinx, and craterhoof behemoth, and gifts is just one of a ton of different tutor effects that are all otherwise deemed perfectly fine.
The lack of consistency is infuriating.
You might consider looking into anger management classes if your perspective on cards or on the banned list causes you to become infuriated. I don't know where you live, otherwise I'd try to offer you a referral.
It's naive to think that players cannot be pushed towards building decks a certain way by card wordings. Tutors that search for multiple cards push people towards searching for cards that combo together. That's WHY this card is so controversial in the first place. If the default use case was getting some value for 9 mana, would 40% of players according to the poll really be calling for an outright ban?
Acting like this is somehow my fault that other people are playing tooth and nail to combo off is absurd beyond words. How am I supposed to take responsibility for someone else including tooth and nail and searched for a game ending combination of creatures? I don't even know what you are trying to communicate with that.
And then trying to dismiss an argument because I point out that the ban list being inconsistent is annoying? Try to come up with actual arguments.
Name me any combo that ends the game on the spot on an empty board for 9 mana or less and maybe that argument holds ground. Or rather, any one card that does so on it's own for 9 mana. Because that is an unique quality only Tooth and Nail has in this format.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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I'm pretty sure the RC has run into plenty of players who insist on breaking this easily-broken format through playing powerful but painfully familiar combos, and if they haven't been impressed enough by the stunts they've seen to this point, I would be surprised if one more group of cutthroat players really blew their minds.
I gotta admit it was kind of cute to see a fairly young player recently who got hold of his dad's cards and apparently figured out on his own that Elvish Archdruid + Staff of Domination was crazy good in his tossed-together elf deck, but seriously, how can long-time players still find any amusement value in doing Mike/Trike or Kiki/Conscripts or Palinchron/Deadeye stunts at this point?
I would like to start saying that I am speaking of TnN in multiplayer play. For 1vs1 I play DuelCommander (French), where TnN is just a bad card.
The Mikaeus + Triskelion combo. Isn't it possible to kill Mikaeus? If they are both on the board, Triskelion would just end up dealing 4 damage? Seems quite unimpressive. Maybe I am reading something wrong on the cards though. But it seems one instant speed removal will do the job.
My point is, if someone wins the game with an effect that can be easily interrupted. Then IMO its not effects fault, its the other decks/players. Say someone at my playgroup is close to nine mana (for TnN with entwine). I would now use a tutor for either Beast Within or something like that, because I know what might be coming up soon. And if I dont have an answer, one of the other two players might have. If you dont play like this, its basically your own fault if you lose, IMO.
I seriously think that it would be a bad idea to ban TnN just because some people doesnt find it fun to play counterspells or instant speed removal. If TnN bothers people that much, then just make a "house banlist".
Because people like me exist. I am a spike/johnny. So to me the combo I am getting through doesnt matter much. What matters is how I manage to get it through. To find that little loop hole every game where I have a shot at winning. Thats what gives me the kicks. I dont care if I play doomsday or TnN to win, they are just the win conditions. So the amusement isnt playing TnN, its pushing the board(be it STAX, Reanimator or whatever) so much, or seeing the other players fall into your traps that gives people like me amusement.
And off-topic why are people even considering banning TnN in a format where its possible to play Leovold with Doomsday combo. I like tasigur for now, but Leovold + Doomsday seems to be far more broken than TnN. Actually even Doomsday without Leovold seems more broken than any TnN deck. To clarify, Leovold provides built in protection for Laboratory Maniac which is huge
And people play TnN because you can jam it into a lot of decks without issue. At worst, you need to dedicate 3 slots to an iWin combo, and usually most of those slots are dedicated to cards that are good on their own. Leovold is a huge red flag on it's own (Unlike, say, Radha, Heir of Keld) because it's so good. Doomsday requires a deck to be built around it. The purpose of the banlist is to moderate those cards that are amazing in casual lists and can be slotted in without needing a whole deck makeover. None of the Leovold-based cards fulfill that checkmark. TnN does.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I have to admit, the last time I cast Tooth and Nail during a game (a couple nights ago), I did essentially win on the spot. But the funny thing was, I didn't even cast it with Entwine. I just cast it when Possibility Storm was in play, so TnN did nothing except lead into Primal Surge, which put 40+ cards onto the battlefield before stopping at the one other non-permanent spell in my Ruric Thar deck (Genesis Wave). Those 40+ cards included Warstorm Surge, Fires of Yavimaya, Hellrider and a bunch of fatties, along with an equipment or two, several lands and an assortment of mana dorks, and when combined with what I already had on the board, that made for game over.
My point is, crazy things happen when people start casting expensive spells, and that is kind of the point of the format. I don't run any specific "I win" creature combos in that deck (though it is one of the few decks in which I still run Craterhoof Behemoth, so it is likely that TnN will be a finisher if I have any significant board state), but in this case, another crazy-powerful, high-CMC spell was the culprit. Does that make Primal Surge a bad card, and if TnN goes, does Surge become the next boogeyman?
I've said it before, and I think it worth repeating. If Tooth and Nail is one of the cards that people most worry about ruining games, I consider that a sign that the format is in pretty good shape.
You've got a large quote there, but only one section bugged me enough to point it out.
'One instant speed removal' is NOT enough to do the job...you are in serious error on this, sir. First let me walk you through the combo:
Mikaeus in play, Triskelion drops(with 3 +1/+1 counters), making it, buffs and all, a 5/5(+1/+1 from Mikaeus, 3 counters, base 1/1).
1 of Trike's counters are shot at someone else(2 counters left, 4/4); the last two counters are shot to itself(2/2 with 2 damage; lethal). Trike now goes to the graveyard.
Mike's undying on Trike triggers: Trike comes back now as a 6/6(+1/+1 from Mike, 4 counters, base 1/1).
Trike fires 2 counters at target, 2 counters at self. Trike goes to graveyard; Undying triggers.
Repeat Ad Nauseum.
Now, keep in mind that all of this can be done at instant speed as well. As in, if you wrath the board, I can simply respond with this combo infinitely(or enough to kill you and stop the wrath from happening[confirm?]). So...you decide to swords Mike...and I end the game(or yours).
The most common(though by no means the only) way to STOP this combo(and that's assuming no Grand Abolisher/Dosan/dragonlord effects, is to Grip Trike. Split second is the ONLY real way to stop this combo, which is why it's so feared and prominently displayed as one of T&N's boogeymen. But even then, the timing has to be done the INSTANT it hits the board, while Trike still has +1/+1 counters on, or else you just wasted a good card.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
These obviously require the Mike/Trike player to make the first move but to say there is only one way to deal with the combo is hyperbolic, outright wrong, and misleading if the idea is to have a real conversation about the card at hand.
I am not suggesting these answers are enough to say that it isn't a problem (though I think they help immensely) but to have a real conversation these options need to be acknowledged.
I'm sure we could go all day with how many different, nuanced, niche ways there are to deal with combos like this one. Admittedly, I shouldn't have said it's the ONLY way(which I will edit in my original post), but it will be, most often, the only commonly known way. Part of the appeal with EDH is the relaxed 'timing response' to triggers and such, after all.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Since you were so adamant to point out how he was WRONG, I'll do the same to you.
Any instant speed grave hate stops it dead.
Throw in cards like Anafenza, the foremost, Rest in Peace, and Leyline of the Void, plus many other instant-exiles, and you have a pretty large pool of answers.
A well timed Sudden Spoiling can be hilarious. There's cards that shut off abilites. The list keeps going.
My opinion has only slightly changed on T&N. It shouldn't be treated any different than 'Hulk, you have to "break it" to break it, and it has totally fair applications.
I'd suggest you do a little more research before telling somebody how WRONG they are...
Edit: Nath'd. However, how are those "niche"? One can be in the command zone, and is actually pretty popular. Most of the others are usually heavily played. Swords to Plowsharez is niche? Tomrod's Crypt is niche? Stifle effects, I'll agree are niche, but those others are something you should be building into your deck. I mean, if your not, then you are losing to almost all GY strategies, not just Mike/Trike.
Although WizardMN already mentioned it, I thought I'd pop in real quick and elaborate on why this isn't true. One instant speed removal spell is all that's necessary in order to disrupt the MikeTrike combo. You just have to respond to either Triskelion's last activation or Mikaeus's undying trigger.
To illustrate:
Fred casts Tooth and Nail, putting Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion onto the battlefield.
Alternatively, Jenny could have cast Swords to Plowshare targeting Mikaeus. The result would have been the same, except with Mikaeus being exiled instead of Triskelion.Fred removes a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion and activates its ability, targeting Jenny. Triskelion is now a 4/4 (2/2 with two +1/+1 counter on it).
Triskelion's ability resolves. Jenny is dealt 1 damage.
Fred removes another +1/+1 counter from Triskelion and activates ability again, this time targeting Triskelion. Triskelion is now a 3/3 (2/2 with one +1/+1 counter on it).
Triskelion's ability resolves. Triskelion is dealt 1 damage. Triskelion is now a 3/3 (2/2 with one +1/+1 counter on it) with 1 damage marked on it.
Fred removes Triskelion's last counter and activates its ability a third time, targeting Triskelion again. Triskelion is now a 2/2 with no +1/+1 counters and 1 damage marked on it.
Jenny responds to Triskelion's ability by casting Swords to Plowshares targeting Triskelion.
Fred cannot further develop his combo because Triskelion no longer has any +1/+1 counters on it for him to remove. Jenny's Swords to Plowshares resolves. Triskelion is exiled, and the combo is broken.
This sequence also works:
Fred casts Tooth and Nail, putting Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion onto the battlefield.
Any kind of removal spell targeting Mikaeus at the appropriate time will work. It doesn't necessarily have to be Swords to Plowshares.Fred removes a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion and activates its ability, targeting Jenny. Triskelion is now a 4/4 (2/2 with two +1/+1 counter on it).
Triskelion's ability resolves. Jenny is dealt 1 damage.
Fred removes another +1/+1 counter from Triskelion and activates ability again, this time targeting Triskelion. Triskelion is now a 3/3 (2/2 with one +1/+1 counter on it).
Triskelion's ability resolves. Triskelion is dealt 1 damage. Triskelion is now a 3/3 (2/2 with one +1/+1 counter on it) with 1 damage marked on it.
Fred removes Triskelion's last counter and activates its ability a third time, targeting Triskelion again. Triskelion is now a 2/2 with no +1/+1 counters and 1 damage marked on it.
Triskelion's ability resolves. Triskelion is dealt 1 damage. Triskelion is now a 2/2 with 2 damage marked on it. Triskelion is put into its owner's graveyard the next time state based effects are checked.
Triskelion's undying ability triggers.
In response to the undying trigger, Jenny casts Swords to Plowshares targeting Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Fred cannot continue his combo because Triskelion is not on the battlefield.
Swords to Plowshares resolves, exiling Mikaeus, the Unhallowed.
Triskelion's undying trigger resolves. Triskelion returns to the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter on it.
Fred cannot further develop his combo because Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is no longer on the battlefield. Fred's combo is broken.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
And even then you're banking on one of those players have an instant-removal spell available at all times from the moment the Gx player hits 9 mana. At which point you might've aimed that Reality Shift on an Avacyn already, or that Swords to Plowshares hit a Sheoldred. You're also expecting those three players to always keep mana open just in case. That's the kind of chokehold you're expecting people to work through constantly. Which gets tiring really fast, once multiple people start to pack TnN into iWin in their decks.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
And once again, the problem here isn't TnN. The problem is the mindset of people playing iWin combos in the first place, and being so competitive that their primary concern is just winning in whatever broken manner is available to them. If that's the way they are, banning TnN won't stop them from playing that way, it will just make them do it with other stupid combos. They'll play miserable Leovold decks, or miserable Derevi decks, or Hermit Druid combo fests, or whatever. The format and its rules are explicitly not designed to combat that mindset; it is recognized that doing so is an exercise in futility.
There are in fact already tools in place to manage this without expanding the banned list. If you know a player plays this sort of combo, dedicate yourself to putting him out of the game before he gets to 9 mana. Or exercise the "social contract" aspect of the format, talk about the sorts of games you'd like to play in, and encourage him or her to play something that the rest of the table doesn't find tedious.
So do we agree that one instant speed removal is enough?
And this is the perfect example why poll votes on bans shouldnt be taken seriously. We simply cannot let players like this guy get a vote (please dont take too much offence) on what should be banned and what shouldn't.
To LouCypher: I dont agree at all with you that you cant do anything from turn 5 to turn 9 just in case someone has TnN. And in my playgroup we all play blue for a reason. Because its the best color, end of story. If you wanna play karador, by all means do so. But I dont like the idea that if a specific commander can't stop TnN then TnN should be banned. For the record I play 7 instant speed removals that can stop whatever creatures TnN hits and 11 counterspells that can stop TnN from being cast in my Tasigur deck. In my playgroup that is just the way it is. It is what is needed if I wanna have a chance against Breya, Ydris and Atraxa which are my opponents at the moment. I dont cry when Breya goes infinite mana and wins, thats part of the game.
I am still not sure whether you are talking about 1v1 traditional commander or multiplayer though. I think that might make a difference. Again, I dont play 1v1 traditional commander (for obvious reasons), only Duel Commander and multiplayer commander.
Oh and btw, if we should look at an OP card we should look at Mana Drain. Dear god. Everytime I cast that card I gain such an advantage its crazy.
The problem with this argument is that it can be applied to a lot of cards on the ban list.
Why does tooth and nail get special treatment and stay unbanned while a good number of cards on the banlist meet the same criteria?
I play multiplayer commander. And your argument already kind of invalidates your part of the discussion - no disrespect - as you say "everyone plays blue because it's the best colour". Which means your group falls into a far more competitive metric than most commander players (And I'd like to argue my group already does, so...take that for what you will.) Commander is supposed to be a casual game in which people can play the commanders they like, not being forced into playing the commanders that are always the best due to their colour identity. "Everyone must play Blue or always face losing to broken stuff" is not what was intended for the format, and thus, is not what the banlist is tailored for.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
You are right on the casual part. But where I disagree with the banning of this card is this. Lets say its the "best" card in multiplayer EDH, when it gets banned, are we then gonna ban Doomsday next (as I said before I find Doomsday to be a better card than TnN)? We will end up just banning about every card in the format at some point then. I would much rather like to see players make a house banning for TnN if they find it too OP. The official banlist should IMO only contain really broken cards such as Emrakul, LoA and so on because as you said, its a casual format. In my group we have house rules anyway, so making a house banlist wouldnt be too much of a deal.
Anyway, it doesnt seem like we are going to agree on this. But just to be clear, you dont have to play blue to answer TnN.
The banned list explicitly doesn't try to police all the things that can be broken with a broken mindset, but it does include some cards that are the very worst offenders, and which can be too easily broken without a person trying to be overly competitive (Prime Time is a good example). Honestly, though, I don't agree with you that the same argument can be applied to a lot of the cards on the banned list. Possibly Protean Hulk, which is very similar, but which can be tutored for much more easily in G by virtue of being a creature, and possibly Gifts Ungiven, but which is arguably more problematic for reasons which have been adequately covered in other threads. That's really about it. Pretty much everything else on there is broken for other reasons. No argument one can make for TnN applies to things like Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Balance or Worldfire.
Having said that, I do think that polls become rather worthless if they never close. If this thread is going to be bumped for years and years and years, mixing new votes with the old ones doesn't really portray public perception all that accurately.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
But tooth and nail is one of the worst offenders.
It just screams two card combo by searching for two cards. The card's design pushes players to do unfun things.
Tooth and nail's design does not push people towards "I will search for two value creatures for fun". That's the non-intuitive use case that you have to build carefully to use.
To have gifts and protean hulk banned while letting tooth and nail ruin games just seems like a cruel joke. Protean hulk has already been eclipsed in game ruining power by cards like avenger of zendikar, consecrated sphinx, and craterhoof behemoth, and gifts is just one of a ton of different tutor effects that are all otherwise deemed perfectly fine.
The lack of consistency is infuriating.
That's ridiculous, and not even close to true. The card doesn't make people do anything. People make their own choices, based on their own personalities, their own attitudes and their own approach to the format.
Seriously, take responsibility for the choices you make as a player, rather than blaming them on the cards.
You might consider looking into anger management classes if your perspective on cards or on the banned list causes you to become infuriated. I don't know where you live, otherwise I'd try to offer you a referral.
It's naive to think that players cannot be pushed towards building decks a certain way by card wordings. Tutors that search for multiple cards push people towards searching for cards that combo together. That's WHY this card is so controversial in the first place. If the default use case was getting some value for 9 mana, would 40% of players according to the poll really be calling for an outright ban?
Acting like this is somehow my fault that other people are playing tooth and nail to combo off is absurd beyond words. How am I supposed to take responsibility for someone else including tooth and nail and searched for a game ending combination of creatures? I don't even know what you are trying to communicate with that.
And then trying to dismiss an argument because I point out that the ban list being inconsistent is annoying? Try to come up with actual arguments.
As to dismissing your arguments, when they are based on finding something "infuriating," I do tend to dismiss such arguments as being based on excessive emotionality.
So because T&N can be broken to win on the spot, we need to ban Pattern of Rebirth. Also, Gennises Wave and Primal Surge. Oath of Druids has to be next. Then, while you're at it throw Natural Order and Green Suns Zenith.
Or, we ban Mike and Trike. Then we'll ban Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator. You can't let Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker exist under those circumstances either. Splintertwin, Craterhoof Behemoth, hmm what else?
By now you can taste the sarcasm, I'd hope. What you have is a people problem, as JWK has already said.
Most modern cars can go 100mph, does that mean I drive at 100mph everywhere I go? And those spoons! Leading cause of obesity I tell you.
One day, T&N might get the axe, but you'll be back here griping about the next combo that combo players use to end games once that happens.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.