If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
From reading the original ban posts, both cards were characterized as 'over-utilized/format warping'.
That's maybe a correct reading for Primeval Titan (which talked more about ramp strategies being over-utilized in general), but I don't see how you can get over-utilized from the Prophet announcement.
A card getting used a lot isn't an issue on its own.
From reading the original ban posts, both cards were characterized as 'over-utilized/format warping'.
That's maybe a correct reading for Primeval Titan (which talked more about ramp strategies being over-utilized in general), but I don't see how you can get over-utilized from the Prophet announcement.
A card getting used a lot isn't an issue on its own.
I got that with Prophet due to the dominance of GU and also from your quote: "Prophet becomes only the second multicolored card on the banlist (after the structurally-problematic Coalition Victory). It's telling just how pervasive Prophet is despite such a restriction. Yes, U/G is the most popular color combination in Commander, but we've reached the point where Prophet is driving U/G deck choice, rather than vice-versa." Unless I am wrong to think that pervasive and over-utilized are similar, to me what I gained from your comment is that Prophet is being utilized so much and people were not answering it, instead they were just trying to get one sooner than others.
I got that with Prophet due to the dominance of GU and also from your quote: "Prophet becomes only the second multicolored card on the banlist (after the structurally-problematic Coalition Victory). It's telling just how pervasive Prophet is despite such a restriction. Yes, U/G is the most popular color combination in Commander, but we've reached the point where Prophet is driving U/G deck choice, rather than vice-versa." Unless I am wrong to think that pervasive and over-utilized are similar, to me what I gained from your comment is that Prophet is being utilized so much and people were not answering it, instead they were just trying to get one sooner than others.
Yes, that's an observation. It's not a justification for a ban, nor is it trying to be if you look at the structure of that paragraph. It's just pointing out that the card was so strong that it showed up a lot despite being hard to cast. (Also, pervasive and over-utilized do mean different things.)
Showing up a lot isn't inherently a problem (though it could be a flag for further investigation). Lots of cards show up a lot. When the card is driving deck choice rather than vice versa, that's an issue. When it causes problems in casual play, that's an issue. Prophet didn't get banned because lots of people played it.
I got that with Prophet due to the dominance of GU and also from your quote: "Prophet becomes only the second multicolored card on the banlist (after the structurally-problematic Coalition Victory). It's telling just how pervasive Prophet is despite such a restriction. Yes, U/G is the most popular color combination in Commander, but we've reached the point where Prophet is driving U/G deck choice, rather than vice-versa." Unless I am wrong to think that pervasive and over-utilized are similar, to me what I gained from your comment is that Prophet is being utilized so much and people were not answering it, instead they were just trying to get one sooner than others.
Yes, that's an observation. It's not a justification for a ban, nor is it trying to be if you look at the structure of that paragraph. It's just pointing out that the card was so strong that it showed up a lot despite being hard to cast. (Also, pervasive and over-utilized do mean different things.)
Showing up a lot isn't inherently a problem (though it could be a flag for further investigation). Lots of cards show up a lot. When the card is driving deck choice rather than vice versa, that's an issue. When it causes problems in casual play, that's an issue. Prophet didn't get banned because lots of people played it.
I wasn't attempting to simplify the Prophet ban to just that level, I understand the the whole warping/driving deck construction side.
I am just at the point where I believe T&N is similarly pervasive in the format and is leading to abrupt game conclusions entirely off the two tutor targets. The card isn't driving deck choices, but it is insanely powerful on its own and another card (you know what one) can provide similar effects but is banned.
I could see T&N getting banned because it seems like you could use similar arguments that the RC used to ban protean hulk (and keep hulk banned).
First let's compare T&N to a card like doomsday. Ignore the fact that doomsday basically wins the game for 3 mana while T&N costs 9. most people know that doomsday is the kind of card you play only in cutthroat decks and tend to avoid it (I've never seen anyone cast doomsday just for value). T&N however goes into every green timmy player's deck. Thus, like with cards such as sylvan primordial, it is more likely to show up in a game with noble intentions but may actually just make the game worse.
Now IIRC the RC's argument to ban protean hulk was that once a player puts it into his untuned green deck, he will slowly alter his deck to the point where hulk eventually wins the game on the spot. Maybe his deck doesn't have karmic guide and reveilark, but then he adds them. And then he adds a sac outlet. And then he adds... etc.
I don't see how T&N could escape this same argument. A timmy player puts T&N into his untuned green deck that can't fetch out an instant win... and we're supposed to expect him to self-police himself to the point where he won't slowly alter his deck until the instant win is available?
I don't know if T&N should be banned, but I do think that T&N should have the same fate as protean hulk. Either both get banned or both get unbanned.
The RC likes to say that this card isn't banned but Hulk is due to ease of tutoring, which is utter hogwash given how any deck that can combo out with Hulk can tutor for Hulk with the same ease as any deck that can tutor out with T&N can tutor for said T&N. They also say it's more abuseable - between Eternal Witness, Skullwinder, Greenwarden of Murasa and the plethora of sorcery retrieval Blue has, I see no issue in repeating T&N in Green decks either. Opponents abusing it? Not many decks are built with Hulk Combo in mind anyway.
Keeping Hulk banned and T&N unbanned while Hulk can't even uptrade in mana while T&N can if desired easily get double it's mana investment back is utter crazyness.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The RC likes to say that this card isn't banned but Hulk is due to ease of tutoring, which is utter hogwash given how any deck that can combo out with Hulk can tutor for Hulk with the same ease as any deck that can tutor out with T&N can tutor for said T&N. They also say it's more abuseable - between Eternal Witness, Skullwinder, Greenwarden of Murasa and the plethora of sorcery retrieval Blue has, I see no issue in repeating T&N in Green decks either. Opponents abusing it? Not many decks are built with Hulk Combo in mind anyway.
Keeping Hulk banned and T&N unbanned while Hulk can't even uptrade in mana while T&N can if desired easily get double it's mana investment back is utter crazyness.
I'd like to add that the reanimation component of Hulk is also hard for someone else to steal and then easily utilize because it requires an additional effect, such as a wipe or sac outlet, to make his ability trigger.
I've felt that Sheldon's experience of people trying to rush at and get the card was more a mixture of players going "Ohhhh Shinny new toy!" instead of "Broken card, must abuse immediately"... it was disappointing to see the trial run was labeled a failure.
The RC likes to say that this card isn't banned but Hulk is due to ease of tutoring, which is utter hogwash given how any deck that can combo out with Hulk can tutor for Hulk with the same ease as any deck that can tutor out with T&N can tutor for said T&N. They also say it's more abuseable - between Eternal Witness, Skullwinder, Greenwarden of Murasa and the plethora of sorcery retrieval Blue has, I see no issue in repeating T&N in Green decks either. Opponents abusing it? Not many decks are built with Hulk Combo in mind anyway.
Keeping Hulk banned and T&N unbanned while Hulk can't even uptrade in mana while T&N can if desired easily get double it's mana investment back is utter crazyness.
I disagree with this because a Mono Green deck has some problems looking for a T&N and it is the place where I most commonly see the card or GW decks which still have the same problem
You have to be dealing with Artifacts/Black/Blue or Gamble if you are talking of tutoring up T&N
The RC likes to say that this card isn't banned but Hulk is due to ease of tutoring, which is utter hogwash given how any deck that can combo out with Hulk can tutor for Hulk with the same ease as any deck that can tutor out with T&N can tutor for said T&N. They also say it's more abuseable - between Eternal Witness, Skullwinder, Greenwarden of Murasa and the plethora of sorcery retrieval Blue has, I see no issue in repeating T&N in Green decks either. Opponents abusing it? Not many decks are built with Hulk Combo in mind anyway.
Keeping Hulk banned and T&N unbanned while Hulk can't even uptrade in mana while T&N can if desired easily get double it's mana investment back is utter crazyness.
I disagree with this because a Mono Green deck has some problems looking for a T&N and it is the place where I most commonly see the card or GW decks which still have the same problem
You have to be dealing with Artifacts/Black/Blue or Gamble if you are talking of tutoring up T&N
G and GW also happen to be the only two colour combos that do not go auto-win with T&N. GR, GB and GU all can. Coincidentally, those happen to be where digging for T&N (And recurring!) is a lot easier.
Likewise, Protean Hulk does not go infinite in Mono-G. Only in GW or GB. Ergo, the tutor argument really doesn't matter.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
They should really share the same fate. They're both cards that can be used fairly, and both can be broken in half. Except Hulk is much less tempting to immediately go all-out-infinite with as it requires many more steps, trading off for being a bit more easily useable by your opponents.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
G and GW also happen to be the only two colour combos that do not go auto-win with T&N. GR, GB and GU all can. Coincidentally, those happen to be where digging for T&N (And recurring!) is a lot easier.
Likewise, Protean Hulk does not go infinite in Mono-G. Only in GW or GB. Ergo, the tutor argument really doesn't matter.
actually, in G/W if you have a repeatable sac outlet of any kind you can go infinite off of tooth and nail with Boonweaver combo. mono green decks just tutor for craterhoof with it after they've made a board, or Avenger + Regal Force to draw their deck and get haste + craterhoof, same thing pretty much, it still wins instantly in mono green far too often.
A multiplayer victory has to exist beyond simply beating your opponent, there has to be a mutual enjoyment of everyone involved. If you win the game and everyone else is miserable then you've still lost. What gets played is irrelevant.
GW also has Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder for infinite life and an infinitely large board. It's the most harmless in mono green, as any payoff is heavily dependent on what you have to work with on board as already stated in the thread. It's still a hell of an advantage, but it's not KikiConscripts or DeadeyePalinchron.
GW also has Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder for infinite life and an infinitely large board. It's the most harmless in mono green, as any payoff is heavily dependent on what you have to work with on board as already stated in the thread. It's still a hell of an advantage, but it's not KikiConscripts or DeadeyePalinchron.
let's be realistic about mono green, by the time you cast it, you should have more than enough resources to win the game off of drawing 20 cards. If you've got no board, you're not casting tooth and nail unless you were already in a losing position and incredibly desperate, and in a good position, you win.
A multiplayer victory has to exist beyond simply beating your opponent, there has to be a mutual enjoyment of everyone involved. If you win the game and everyone else is miserable then you've still lost. What gets played is irrelevant.
I have been playing Tooth and Nail in Maelstrom Wanderer for a while as a value card. It allows me to get Tradewind Rider and Seedborn Muse, for example. There are no infinite combos in my deck that I can get with Tooth and Nail.
But the last few times I've cast it, it has been insta-win. Pathbreaker Ibex and Malignus usually wins. I am now realizing that I cannot even do fair things with it.
Huge trampling dudes are about the fairest strategy commander has. That probably is better than my Trench Gorger/Worldspine/Blightsteel picks but it only wins with the commander/haste granter out, a relatively unclogged board, no instant answers, and 2 opponents, one with a lower life total than the other in a lot of cases. It's a big, potentially game winning play, but no more so than any other big play that gives you stupid high power with trample and haste.
Anyone who says "You can play T&N and not abuse it" is a damn fool. You don't play T&N for fun, it is a game winner. It is not fun to see a single card completely win the game. Never have i seen a game where someone pulls off T&N and then lose. I have seen many other "Game win" cards go off and teh player not win but T&N always wins. Either infinite combo or just getting value that you can abuse (DEN+Duplicant)
Some cards need to be banned, Tooth and Nail is one of those cards and the fact that it has not been banned yet baffles me. What is the RC on to not see how format breaking this card is?
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Anyone who says "You can play T&N and not abuse it" is a damn fool. You don't play T&N for fun, it is a game winner. It is not fun to see a single card completely win the game. Never have i seen a game where someone pulls off T&N and then lose. I have seen many other "Game win" cards go off and teh player not win but T&N always wins. Either infinite combo or just getting value that you can abuse (DEN+Duplicant)
Some cards need to be banned, Tooth and Nail is one of those cards and the fact that it has not been banned yet baffles me. What is the RC on to not see how format breaking this card is?
The RC themselves have stated that it's easier to build a deck to not be abusive, then to play a deck that can be abusive and not abuse things. So, if you build a deck with TnN that cannot truly abuse it, then yes, you can play it "fairly". So calling others a fool just because their opinion (Which is actually a fact in this case) doesn't mesh with yours isn't quite the way to go about things.
That said, TnN still is a negative experience most of the time due to just how much value you can get out of it. Even in a fair deck like my Selvala it can still go for several combos that just hand the game to me, even if they don't insta-win me the game. So I wouldn't shed tears for it's ban.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The RC themselves have stated that it's easier to build a deck to not be abusive, then to play a deck that can be abusive and not abuse things. So, if you build a deck with TnN that cannot truly abuse it, then yes, you can play it "fairly". So calling others a fool just because their opinion (Which is actually a fact in this case) doesn't mesh with yours isn't quite the way to go about things.
That said, TnN still is a negative experience most of the time due to just how much value you can get out of it. Even in a fair deck like my Selvala it can still go for several combos that just hand the game to me, even if they don't insta-win me the game. So I wouldn't shed tears for it's ban.
I don't get your last argument, and I don't get all the hate that many seem to have towards TnN. I play TnN with the Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron combo as one of my win conditions in my control/reanimator version of Tasigur. It almost never resolves in my playgroup as it always gets countered and even when it resolves, Deadeye Navigator gets instant speed removed (responding to the ETB soulbond trigger). Which cards do people use with TnN that is so much better than Deadeye + Palinchron? Cause something must be much better if TnN is banworthy.
The RC themselves have stated that it's easier to build a deck to not be abusive, then to play a deck that can be abusive and not abuse things. So, if you build a deck with TnN that cannot truly abuse it, then yes, you can play it "fairly". So calling others a fool just because their opinion (Which is actually a fact in this case) doesn't mesh with yours isn't quite the way to go about things.
That said, TnN still is a negative experience most of the time due to just how much value you can get out of it. Even in a fair deck like my Selvala it can still go for several combos that just hand the game to me, even if they don't insta-win me the game. So I wouldn't shed tears for it's ban.
I don't get your last argument, and I don't get all the hate that many seem to have towards TnN. I play TnN with the Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron combo as one of my win conditions in my control/reanimator version of Tasigur. It almost never resolves in my playgroup as it always gets countered and even when it resolves, Deadeye Navigator gets instant speed removed (responding to the ETB soulbond trigger). Which cards do people use with TnN that is so much better than Deadeye + Palinchron? Cause something must be much better if TnN is banworthy.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion is a big one. Avenger of Zendikar + Craterhoof Behemoth is also not an uncommon win given an already preexisting boardstate.
See the thing is, not every game has blue players. And not every game everyone has some piece of insta-speed spot removal open in case of TnN. How many counters + spot removal cards must one play just to be shielded vs TnN? Also it's not all that uncommon here anymore to see it get cast behind a Grand Abolisher or Dragonlord Dromoka...
Also I just got back from playing a game vs a Karametra elves deck with my Karador deck. Now, my Karador packs Elesh Norn, Massacre Wurm, Demon of Dark Schemes, and a selection of boardwipes along with a few spot removal cards. Should be enough right? Well it wasn't, I had to spend a lot of time keeping his Mirari's Wake/Zendikar Resurgent dead the moment I could and just didn't draw into any of those effects. Once I finally had the setup to pull off a Massacre Wurm + Restoration Angel the next turn, he just Tooth and Nailed for AvengerHoof with 8 preexisting elves. Yes. Such fun. Woopteefreakingdoo.
Private Mod Note
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Anyone who says "You can play T&N and not abuse it" is a damn fool. You don't play T&N for fun, it is a game winner. It is not fun to see a single card completely win the game. Never have i seen a game where someone pulls off T&N and then lose. I have seen many other "Game win" cards go off and teh player not win but T&N always wins. Either infinite combo or just getting value that you can abuse (DEN+Duplicant)
Some cards need to be banned, Tooth and Nail is one of those cards and the fact that it has not been banned yet baffles me. What is the RC on to not see how format breaking this card is?
The problem in those cases is the players, not the card. If they aren't running TnN, they probably run other lame, repetitive combos. you don't have to build decks that allow you to abuse a card like that, though. Your idea that people who don't play that way are "damn fools" is itself pretty noxious.
I avoid playing cards that make up an "I win" combo in any deck that has TnN. I don't run Kiki and Conscripts (or a similar creature) or Mike/Trike together in any deck, period, because I don't find those sorts of combos make for fun or memorable games. Sometimes I still win by casting TnN, which I don't consider a bad thing - we are talking about a pretty pricey card to cast, after all - but if I do so, that probably means I already have a good position and TnN is a finisher, and lots of cards can be finishers.
Anyone who says "You can play T&N and not abuse it" is a damn fool. You don't play T&N for fun, it is a game winner. It is not fun to see a single card completely win the game. Never have i seen a game where someone pulls off T&N and then lose. I have seen many other "Game win" cards go off and teh player not win but T&N always wins. Either infinite combo or just getting value that you can abuse (DEN+Duplicant)
Some cards need to be banned, Tooth and Nail is one of those cards and the fact that it has not been banned yet baffles me. What is the RC on to not see how format breaking this card is?
The problem in those cases is the players, not the card. If they aren't running TnN, they probably run other lame, repetitive combos. you don't have to build decks that allow you to abuse a card like that, though. Your idea that people who don't play that way are "damn fools" is itself pretty noxious.
I avoid playing cards that make up an "I win" combo in any deck that has TnN. I don't run Kiki and Conscripts (or a similar creature) or Mike/Trike together in any deck, period, because I don't find those sorts of combos make for fun or memorable games. Sometimes I still win by casting TnN, which I don't consider a bad thing - we are talking about a pretty pricey card to cast, after all - but if I do so, that probably means I already have a good position and TnN is a finisher, and lots of cards can be finishers.
Okay maybe it is just my playgroup that builds T&N to be obnoxious. Seriously, you get one person who is nice, that is fine, you get two or three great. But if you were to put the RC with a few players form my Playgroup, T&N will be banned after that session. GUARANTEED.
That's maybe a correct reading for Primeval Titan (which talked more about ramp strategies being over-utilized in general), but I don't see how you can get over-utilized from the Prophet announcement.
A card getting used a lot isn't an issue on its own.
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Yes, that's an observation. It's not a justification for a ban, nor is it trying to be if you look at the structure of that paragraph. It's just pointing out that the card was so strong that it showed up a lot despite being hard to cast. (Also, pervasive and over-utilized do mean different things.)
Showing up a lot isn't inherently a problem (though it could be a flag for further investigation). Lots of cards show up a lot. When the card is driving deck choice rather than vice versa, that's an issue. When it causes problems in casual play, that's an issue. Prophet didn't get banned because lots of people played it.
I am just at the point where I believe T&N is similarly pervasive in the format and is leading to abrupt game conclusions entirely off the two tutor targets. The card isn't driving deck choices, but it is insanely powerful on its own and another card (you know what one) can provide similar effects but is banned.
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First let's compare T&N to a card like doomsday. Ignore the fact that doomsday basically wins the game for 3 mana while T&N costs 9. most people know that doomsday is the kind of card you play only in cutthroat decks and tend to avoid it (I've never seen anyone cast doomsday just for value). T&N however goes into every green timmy player's deck. Thus, like with cards such as sylvan primordial, it is more likely to show up in a game with noble intentions but may actually just make the game worse.
Now IIRC the RC's argument to ban protean hulk was that once a player puts it into his untuned green deck, he will slowly alter his deck to the point where hulk eventually wins the game on the spot. Maybe his deck doesn't have karmic guide and reveilark, but then he adds them. And then he adds a sac outlet. And then he adds... etc.
I don't see how T&N could escape this same argument. A timmy player puts T&N into his untuned green deck that can't fetch out an instant win... and we're supposed to expect him to self-police himself to the point where he won't slowly alter his deck until the instant win is available?
I don't know if T&N should be banned, but I do think that T&N should have the same fate as protean hulk. Either both get banned or both get unbanned.
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
Keeping Hulk banned and T&N unbanned while Hulk can't even uptrade in mana while T&N can if desired easily get double it's mana investment back is utter crazyness.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I've felt that Sheldon's experience of people trying to rush at and get the card was more a mixture of players going "Ohhhh Shinny new toy!" instead of "Broken card, must abuse immediately"... it was disappointing to see the trial run was labeled a failure.
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I disagree with this because a Mono Green deck has some problems looking for a T&N and it is the place where I most commonly see the card or GW decks which still have the same problem
You have to be dealing with Artifacts/Black/Blue or Gamble if you are talking of tutoring up T&N
G and GW also happen to be the only two colour combos that do not go auto-win with T&N. GR, GB and GU all can. Coincidentally, those happen to be where digging for T&N (And recurring!) is a lot easier.
Likewise, Protean Hulk does not go infinite in Mono-G. Only in GW or GB. Ergo, the tutor argument really doesn't matter.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
actually, in G/W if you have a repeatable sac outlet of any kind you can go infinite off of tooth and nail with Boonweaver combo. mono green decks just tutor for craterhoof with it after they've made a board, or Avenger + Regal Force to draw their deck and get haste + craterhoof, same thing pretty much, it still wins instantly in mono green far too often.
let's be realistic about mono green, by the time you cast it, you should have more than enough resources to win the game off of drawing 20 cards. If you've got no board, you're not casting tooth and nail unless you were already in a losing position and incredibly desperate, and in a good position, you win.
But the last few times I've cast it, it has been insta-win. Pathbreaker Ibex and Malignus usually wins. I am now realizing that I cannot even do fair things with it.
I won't be disappointed should it be banned.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Some cards need to be banned, Tooth and Nail is one of those cards and the fact that it has not been banned yet baffles me. What is the RC on to not see how format breaking this card is?
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
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The RC themselves have stated that it's easier to build a deck to not be abusive, then to play a deck that can be abusive and not abuse things. So, if you build a deck with TnN that cannot truly abuse it, then yes, you can play it "fairly". So calling others a fool just because their opinion (Which is actually a fact in this case) doesn't mesh with yours isn't quite the way to go about things.
That said, TnN still is a negative experience most of the time due to just how much value you can get out of it. Even in a fair deck like my Selvala it can still go for several combos that just hand the game to me, even if they don't insta-win me the game. So I wouldn't shed tears for it's ban.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I don't get your last argument, and I don't get all the hate that many seem to have towards TnN. I play TnN with the Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron combo as one of my win conditions in my control/reanimator version of Tasigur. It almost never resolves in my playgroup as it always gets countered and even when it resolves, Deadeye Navigator gets instant speed removed (responding to the ETB soulbond trigger). Which cards do people use with TnN that is so much better than Deadeye + Palinchron? Cause something must be much better if TnN is banworthy.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion is a big one. Avenger of Zendikar + Craterhoof Behemoth is also not an uncommon win given an already preexisting boardstate.
See the thing is, not every game has blue players. And not every game everyone has some piece of insta-speed spot removal open in case of TnN. How many counters + spot removal cards must one play just to be shielded vs TnN? Also it's not all that uncommon here anymore to see it get cast behind a Grand Abolisher or Dragonlord Dromoka...
Also I just got back from playing a game vs a Karametra elves deck with my Karador deck. Now, my Karador packs Elesh Norn, Massacre Wurm, Demon of Dark Schemes, and a selection of boardwipes along with a few spot removal cards. Should be enough right? Well it wasn't, I had to spend a lot of time keeping his Mirari's Wake/Zendikar Resurgent dead the moment I could and just didn't draw into any of those effects. Once I finally had the setup to pull off a Massacre Wurm + Restoration Angel the next turn, he just Tooth and Nailed for AvengerHoof with 8 preexisting elves. Yes. Such fun. Woopteefreakingdoo.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The problem in those cases is the players, not the card. If they aren't running TnN, they probably run other lame, repetitive combos. you don't have to build decks that allow you to abuse a card like that, though. Your idea that people who don't play that way are "damn fools" is itself pretty noxious.
I avoid playing cards that make up an "I win" combo in any deck that has TnN. I don't run Kiki and Conscripts (or a similar creature) or Mike/Trike together in any deck, period, because I don't find those sorts of combos make for fun or memorable games. Sometimes I still win by casting TnN, which I don't consider a bad thing - we are talking about a pretty pricey card to cast, after all - but if I do so, that probably means I already have a good position and TnN is a finisher, and lots of cards can be finishers.
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[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Okay maybe it is just my playgroup that builds T&N to be obnoxious. Seriously, you get one person who is nice, that is fine, you get two or three great. But if you were to put the RC with a few players form my Playgroup, T&N will be banned after that session. GUARANTEED.
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
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