Tooth and Nail. One of the best green game-enders in both casual and competitive scenes. Hotly debated in the community whether or not this card follows the philosophies of the banlist due to its ability to tutor and bring out two creatures in a singleton format. Many have argued that its big, flashy effects are just what EDH is all about.
Points of discussion (Just some ideas that have been brought up in the past regarding this card to consider. Please do not limit the discussion to just below points.)
People often point out that non-abusive use of this card fits the spirit of the format. Do you agree or disagree?
Should an investment of 9 mana into a single spell result in a game win? Why or why not?
What are some of the most common tutor targets that makes this card ban-worthy?
Are there any cards on the banlist this card can be compared to?
Are there any cards not on the banlist this card can be compared to? (To discuss the risk of a cascading ban)
So what do people think about this card? Should it be banned? Why or why not?
The longer a timeline the game of Magic is printed in stores, the more sets that will come out and the more sets that come out the more people will options to more removal for the biggest and most plentiful card type in the game.
TnN is a good teacher, it is a good set of training wheels. Abilities and Instants that deal with creatures are good things and we should be showing people that they need to plan for sudden terrifying board states and Tooth and Nail does that.
You can stop every combo that Tooth and Nail can pull with about 30 different cards each with an average mana cost of two.
When TnN is used to fetch the instant win stuff like Mike/Trike or Kiki/Untapper, that's not TnN's fault. If you're running those combos then you're going to draw them at some point anyway and the bad feels is just as bad. TnN just makes it more consistent, but there's so many other tutors available that you'd just have to split things across two cards rather than a single card.
Then there's the cases where it does something like Craterhoof/Avenger. And you know what, that's a nice game ender; you cast something big and flashy and smashed us down. It's likely yuou could have pulled it off with one of the many other Overrun effects. The game's gotta end at some point, right? I personally don't want every single game to be a grindy mess where every life point is ticked down one by one (now and again is fine).
And then you have all the other cases where you just fetch up two fatties, or a fatty and a utility. Sure, the two fatties case is probably highly mana efficient, but if people are complaining that they lose to fatties now and again I feel like "run removal" is actually a valid defense.
I voted yes because while it may be an okay set of training wheels, Tooth and Nail has never been responsible for a good "memorable" game experience for me. Most of the time in my playgroup it gets things like Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator or Craterhoof Behemoth and something else. The point system for our EDH league has negatives in place to prevent people from playing combos like Mike and Trike but if those weren't in place I would probably see more of those combinations.
To me this card falls in the same category as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, the vast majority of the time this card resolves its game over for everyone else. Though I will agree there are many other cards that are far more egregious offenders than Tooth and Nail.
Of course I play against a fair amount of U/G and U/G/X decks so my opinion on the matter may be a little biased.
My issue is that this mentality encourages people to play gsme-ending combos. Tooth and Nail is a giant Timmy spell that seems perfect for the format, but it often results into anticlimactic wins. Drawing naturally into your combos, being required to spend mana on them, or expending multiple tutors on them makes for a longer and more interactive game. I'd much rather tell people to run a combo that either involved pieces which synergized with the rest of the deck or were dead cards without the other half than to run subpar cards since you have a instawin tutor.
It's a card that's not at the absolute highest power level (e.g. hermit druid, doomsday, ad nauseum, etc.), but cards that are essentially 1-card instant wins are not fun to play against. And yes, tooth and nail has answers. The question is are there enough answers. While I do think there are enough answers to tooth and nail, I'm simply stating this as a matter of fact, and to remind everyone that this applies to every card. There are answers to things like coalition victory and sundering titan, but that didn't change the fact that there weren't enough viable answers.
The other thing is that the RC has stated that they do not ban based solely on power level. Prime time and prophet of kruphix are not broken enough in terms of power level to be broken. They were banned because they created unfun games or unfun game states. And I find that tooth and nail instantly ending the game if the right answers aren't available does not create a fun game, despite the fact that its power level may not be ban-worthy.
Ultimately, I won't be bringing out the pitchforks demanding a T&N ban, but I will not miss T&N if it does get axed.
im personally of the opinion that about half of the EDH banlist should not be banned, since house bans and building to your playgroups power level is so commonplace. if your playgroup doesnt like infinite combos, then of course they are going to be unhappy with you tooth and nailing into a combo win! they would be equally unhappy if you drew it naturally anyways. if your playgroup doesnt like combos or you find TnN is winning you too many games, either cut the cards or cut the targets for less viable options. TnN is the perfect example of an AWESOME casual card that also functions well in cutthroat groups, and would be an extreme shame to see this card get banned while storm decks continue on winning on turn 4.
To me, this card (mainly) resembles two other banned cards: Biorhythm and Protean Hulk.
Tooth and Nail resembles Biorhythm because it is a big, splashy effect taped on a sorcery, and even involves creatures. If I am correct, Biorhythm was banned because it seemed like a cool, splashy effect, but every time it was played, the game ended in an unspectacular fashion. Thus, it was given the axe. The main difference between these two cards is that Biorhythm always impacts the life totals of every player in a massive way. If it resolves, the game has become a lot shorter. That is simply not exactly the case for Tooth and Nail. Granted, Tooth and Nail allows for an easily assembled infinite-combo with any number of two creatures, and although this may be the best legal card to achieve that sort of victory, the RC has decided (currently) that this possibility is to be overlooked because if people are playing this card to read "win the game" then they are playing the format in a way that they do not want to foster.
Tooth and Nail resembles Protean Hulk because it has the capability to tutor for multiple creatures and put them directly into play. The main difference between these two cards, is obviously the card type, and this card has two main reasons for being banned:
1. Creatures are more easily tutored, cheated, and repeatable than sorceries (especially in green).
2. Creatures can "warp" the game to revolve around them in ways that sorceries just cannot. Similar examples being: Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix. (Granted, those are not the only reason that those cards are banned.) There is a worry that Protean Hulk could cause a similar issue.
The main argument that seems to keep this card banned, is that it is much easier to repeat a creature's effect rather than a sorcery's. I would have to agree with this, but the other side of this argument is that because it is a creature, it is also easier to interact with. Granted, a death trigger means that unless you're able to exile it, its effect will trigger, but because it is a death trigger, any amount of graveyard removal will stop this beast from "doing its thing" again.
After stating all of this, it should be obvious why Tooth and Nail is a highly debated card, but I believe that most of the bad hype it receives is because of its easy combo-potential. This is an unfortunate side-effect of an otherwise great card, and I would encourage players to build decks with Tooth and Nail without 2-creature infinite combos. [Because, how fun can that be every time? For you or your playgroup(s).]
Also, though this may not be the thread for it, I believe that Protean Hulk should be removed from the list for its strong similarities to Tooth and Nail. I feel that its effect is not something that will cause a "warping" of the commander-meta, and I feel it has enough ways to interact with it (exile and/or graveyard removal) to warrant an unban.
Should T+N be banned? Yes, as long as cards like Protean Hulk are on as that would be consistent. But the question I would rather pose is "Should Protean Hulk be unbanned?". Yes I think so. It is true that sometimes a game can centralize on a single creature, which isn't always as fun or interactive and that is what I think happened with Prophet of Kruphix. Do I feel the same about Protean Hulk, not at all. I know PH is powerful, but only due to it reputation, which I also think is why it is banned, but otherwise it just seems like a good green creature.
My issue is that this mentality encourages people to play gsme-ending combos. Tooth and Nail is a giant Timmy spell that seems perfect for the format, but it often results into anticlimactic wins. Drawing naturally into your combos, being required to spend mana on them, or expending multiple tutors on them makes for a longer and more interactive game. I'd much rather tell people to run a combo that either involved pieces which synergized with the rest of the deck or were dead cards without the other half than to run subpar cards since you have a instawin tutor.
You are only considering it from the perspective of the person playing the Tooth & Nail.
As someone who likes stopping it when it does happen Tooth and Nail is a very interactive card and people tapping out to cast it only to get whatever they have stopped and then killed soon after does lead to very memorable games, it is all a matter of perspective.
im personally of the opinion that about half of the EDH banlist should not be banned, since house bans and building to your playgroups power level is so commonplace...
Emphasis mine. Could you explain where you draw this conclusion from? The data we seem to have here on MTGS is quite the opposite, so it would be interesting to compare.
Ultimately, I won't be bringing out the pitchforks demanding a T&N ban, but I will not miss T&N if it does get axed.
I think thats how I feel about a lot of the fringe cards on or off the current list. The thing that would make me break out the pitchforks would be a shift to a very long list. If they revamped to competitive focus I would be disappointed, but doubt it would change my play habits outside upping my attempts to get a regular set of people again.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
You are only considering it from the perspective of the person playing the Tooth & Nail.
As someone who likes stopping it when it does happen Tooth and Nail is a very interactive card and people tapping out to cast it only to get whatever they have stopped and then killed soon after does lead to very memorable games, it is all a matter of perspective.
It rarely felt interactive to me. The number of times I saw it being cast to grab Mike+Trike or Kikiscripts far outnumber the times where it just grabbed value (and full disclosure, I have never grabbed a combo win, but most often grabbed parts of an engine in Karador - T&N often securing the win even if it wasn't on the spot). T&N has always felt like a card that when it gets cast you just counter no matter what, or pray that someone has spot removal that can handle whatever unknown scenario is about to happen. I don't mind "answer this or die" cards, but I take small issue with them when they can come out of nowhere and are played under the guise of "fair" cards. Add to this my albeit tainted opinion of the decks I sometimes see play this durdling around for the first few turns ramping, and barely interacting with the table until they cast it. But again I know that's an opinion and am not submitting it as an argument.
I dislike those kinds of decks too that is why I put pressure on them and then disrupt their big spells or the things that spawn out of them for fun and profit.
I dislike those kinds of decks too that is why I put pressure on them and then disrupt their big spells or the things that spawn out of them for fun and profit.
It is a valid strategy, but if T+N drives one to headhunt certain peoples decks, doesen't it then qualify as violating a chunk of the philosophy and should be banned? I am not shaming anyone, as I myself is guilty of doing this to a Riku player in my group due to his top end being bigger than mine. In my head I need to KO him before before his creatures become too large for my utility creatures to handle.
What I find most annoying about TnN is that it suffers from the same issue prophet of Kruphix had, (except in a non-permanent way):
As soon as someone plays TnN, someone counters it, counter-counters it, duplicate it, destroy what it tutors, whatever interactions people can do to TnN they do, simply cause It is, in every single EDH game I've ever played that TnN is cast, a game ender. Nobody casts it for putting fun/strong/portions of combo/whatever stuff on the table, but rather to end the game with any of the dozens 2-creats-combos It can tutor. TnN is boring, and one huge reason to splash green in your deck (at least more than a half the decks in my LGS are green or green something) (and yes, there are other reasons, yada, yada, but you can't ignore tooth and nail if you play mikaeus).
I'm pretty shure everybody agrees that banning every 2 card combos in EDH is unviable and stupid. But this is more than having an answer to a staple in meta. Still, that is just my short experience with EDH (less than 2 years).
If people remove the things that come out of it how does it end the game?
In terms of copying it I have seen the Boros deck Dualcaster it and then find Containment Priest + Something else to exile everything the other player gets with their spell.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
Most of the problems of the format would be 100% solved if people practiced a little self-restraint.
Very true. It would be interesting to see what the ban list would look like if that was the case.
Although this would be interesting, then in the end its people/humans we are dealing with and thus when something can be abused it likely will. Call it human instinct, survivors instinct or perhaps just sheer force of will In the end what drives this sometimes is the same that drives a person to greatness. Progression.
If people remove the things that come out of it how does it end the game?.
Well, nobody plays anything in a vacuum. Usually when someone plays TnN they are prepared to back it up from possible threats. A friend of mine that runs Zegana usually casts it with 2-3 counters in his hand (yes, he makes absurd amounts of mana real quick). Or wait for the others to be tapped out etc. still, just cause you try to destroy something does not mean you actually succeed, every card has weakesses and part of playing combo is checking them, which ain't that hard with TnN.
Complaining the list is inconsistent because Phrophet and T+N share anything is quite the stretch. I have seen someone else's T+N reused exactly one time, but PoK got cloned or stolen in about half the games I saw it land. Not to mention the amount of removal targeted at them. Its really not an apt comparison from that point of view.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
If people remove the things that come out of it how does it end the game?.
Well, nobody plays anything in a vacuum. Usually when someone plays TnN they are prepared to back it up from possible threats. A friend of mine that runs Zegana usually casts it with 2-3 counters in his hand (yes, he makes absurd amounts of mana real quick). Or wait for the others to be tapped out etc. still, just cause you try to destroy something does not mean you actually succeed, every card has weakesses and part of playing combo is checking them, which ain't that hard with TnN.
See from just the little you have described here Tooth & Nail is not the problem, if you swap it for any number of "OUTS" for the colors of simic into that same situation.
The problem is the player not being disrupted or challenged enough to use/lose resources gained in which they got to a point in which Tooth and Nail and multiple counter spells and ramp all happened.
I see that as someone with a gameplan who succeeded in it through his opponents not doing enough to stop him.
Tooth and Nail. One of the best green game-enders in both casual and competitive scenes. Hotly debated in the community whether or not this card follows the philosophies of the banlist due to its ability to tutor and bring out two creatures in a singleton format. Many have argued that its big, flashy effects are just what EDH is all about.
Points of discussion
(Just some ideas that have been brought up in the past regarding this card to consider. Please do not limit the discussion to just below points.)
TnN is a good teacher, it is a good set of training wheels. Abilities and Instants that deal with creatures are good things and we should be showing people that they need to plan for sudden terrifying board states and Tooth and Nail does that.
You can stop every combo that Tooth and Nail can pull with about 30 different cards each with an average mana cost of two.
Then there's the cases where it does something like Craterhoof/Avenger. And you know what, that's a nice game ender; you cast something big and flashy and smashed us down. It's likely yuou could have pulled it off with one of the many other Overrun effects. The game's gotta end at some point, right? I personally don't want every single game to be a grindy mess where every life point is ticked down one by one (now and again is fine).
And then you have all the other cases where you just fetch up two fatties, or a fatty and a utility. Sure, the two fatties case is probably highly mana efficient, but if people are complaining that they lose to fatties now and again I feel like "run removal" is actually a valid defense.
To me this card falls in the same category as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, the vast majority of the time this card resolves its game over for everyone else. Though I will agree there are many other cards that are far more egregious offenders than Tooth and Nail.
Of course I play against a fair amount of U/G and U/G/X decks so my opinion on the matter may be a little biased.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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The other thing is that the RC has stated that they do not ban based solely on power level. Prime time and prophet of kruphix are not broken enough in terms of power level to be broken. They were banned because they created unfun games or unfun game states. And I find that tooth and nail instantly ending the game if the right answers aren't available does not create a fun game, despite the fact that its power level may not be ban-worthy.
Ultimately, I won't be bringing out the pitchforks demanding a T&N ban, but I will not miss T&N if it does get axed.
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Tooth and Nail resembles Biorhythm because it is a big, splashy effect taped on a sorcery, and even involves creatures. If I am correct, Biorhythm was banned because it seemed like a cool, splashy effect, but every time it was played, the game ended in an unspectacular fashion. Thus, it was given the axe. The main difference between these two cards is that Biorhythm always impacts the life totals of every player in a massive way. If it resolves, the game has become a lot shorter. That is simply not exactly the case for Tooth and Nail. Granted, Tooth and Nail allows for an easily assembled infinite-combo with any number of two creatures, and although this may be the best legal card to achieve that sort of victory, the RC has decided (currently) that this possibility is to be overlooked because if people are playing this card to read "win the game" then they are playing the format in a way that they do not want to foster.
Tooth and Nail resembles Protean Hulk because it has the capability to tutor for multiple creatures and put them directly into play. The main difference between these two cards, is obviously the card type, and this card has two main reasons for being banned:
1. Creatures are more easily tutored, cheated, and repeatable than sorceries (especially in green).
2. Creatures can "warp" the game to revolve around them in ways that sorceries just cannot. Similar examples being: Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix. (Granted, those are not the only reason that those cards are banned.) There is a worry that Protean Hulk could cause a similar issue.
The main argument that seems to keep this card banned, is that it is much easier to repeat a creature's effect rather than a sorcery's. I would have to agree with this, but the other side of this argument is that because it is a creature, it is also easier to interact with. Granted, a death trigger means that unless you're able to exile it, its effect will trigger, but because it is a death trigger, any amount of graveyard removal will stop this beast from "doing its thing" again.
After stating all of this, it should be obvious why Tooth and Nail is a highly debated card, but I believe that most of the bad hype it receives is because of its easy combo-potential. This is an unfortunate side-effect of an otherwise great card, and I would encourage players to build decks with Tooth and Nail without 2-creature infinite combos. [Because, how fun can that be every time? For you or your playgroup(s).]
Also, though this may not be the thread for it, I believe that Protean Hulk should be removed from the list for its strong similarities to Tooth and Nail. I feel that its effect is not something that will cause a "warping" of the commander-meta, and I feel it has enough ways to interact with it (exile and/or graveyard removal) to warrant an unban.
You are only considering it from the perspective of the person playing the Tooth & Nail.
As someone who likes stopping it when it does happen Tooth and Nail is a very interactive card and people tapping out to cast it only to get whatever they have stopped and then killed soon after does lead to very memorable games, it is all a matter of perspective.
I think thats how I feel about a lot of the fringe cards on or off the current list. The thing that would make me break out the pitchforks would be a shift to a very long list. If they revamped to competitive focus I would be disappointed, but doubt it would change my play habits outside upping my attempts to get a regular set of people again.
It rarely felt interactive to me. The number of times I saw it being cast to grab Mike+Trike or Kikiscripts far outnumber the times where it just grabbed value (and full disclosure, I have never grabbed a combo win, but most often grabbed parts of an engine in Karador - T&N often securing the win even if it wasn't on the spot). T&N has always felt like a card that when it gets cast you just counter no matter what, or pray that someone has spot removal that can handle whatever unknown scenario is about to happen. I don't mind "answer this or die" cards, but I take small issue with them when they can come out of nowhere and are played under the guise of "fair" cards. Add to this my albeit tainted opinion of the decks I sometimes see play this durdling around for the first few turns ramping, and barely interacting with the table until they cast it. But again I know that's an opinion and am not submitting it as an argument.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
It is a valid strategy, but if T+N drives one to headhunt certain peoples decks, doesen't it then qualify as violating a chunk of the philosophy and should be banned? I am not shaming anyone, as I myself is guilty of doing this to a Riku player in my group due to his top end being bigger than mine. In my head I need to KO him before before his creatures become too large for my utility creatures to handle.
As soon as someone plays TnN, someone counters it, counter-counters it, duplicate it, destroy what it tutors, whatever interactions people can do to TnN they do, simply cause It is, in every single EDH game I've ever played that TnN is cast, a game ender. Nobody casts it for putting fun/strong/portions of combo/whatever stuff on the table, but rather to end the game with any of the dozens 2-creats-combos It can tutor. TnN is boring, and one huge reason to splash green in your deck (at least more than a half the decks in my LGS are green or green something) (and yes, there are other reasons, yada, yada, but you can't ignore tooth and nail if you play mikaeus).
I'm pretty shure everybody agrees that banning every 2 card combos in EDH is unviable and stupid. But this is more than having an answer to a staple in meta. Still, that is just my short experience with EDH (less than 2 years).
In terms of copying it I have seen the Boros deck Dualcaster it and then find Containment Priest + Something else to exile everything the other player gets with their spell.
Very true. It would be interesting to see what the ban list would look like if that was the case.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Although this would be interesting, then in the end its people/humans we are dealing with and thus when something can be abused it likely will. Call it human instinct, survivors instinct or perhaps just sheer force of will In the end what drives this sometimes is the same that drives a person to greatness. Progression.
Well, nobody plays anything in a vacuum. Usually when someone plays TnN they are prepared to back it up from possible threats. A friend of mine that runs Zegana usually casts it with 2-3 counters in his hand (yes, he makes absurd amounts of mana real quick). Or wait for the others to be tapped out etc. still, just cause you try to destroy something does not mean you actually succeed, every card has weakesses and part of playing combo is checking them, which ain't that hard with TnN.
I believe much smaller.
See from just the little you have described here Tooth & Nail is not the problem, if you swap it for any number of "OUTS" for the colors of simic into that same situation.
The problem is the player not being disrupted or challenged enough to use/lose resources gained in which they got to a point in which Tooth and Nail and multiple counter spells and ramp all happened.
I see that as someone with a gameplan who succeeded in it through his opponents not doing enough to stop him.