So, instead of opening up the options and letting any color combination have some ramp options starting at turn 1 we isolate it to only decks that have green.
Explain to me how this is going to help balance and prevent negative play experience.
And I would be capable of casting any colored spell of up to 10 casting cost that doesn't require more than 4 of a non-green color within the limits of my chosen colors for the deck.
do you actively do everything possible to copy/steal/tutor/destroy a Sol Ring?
And at the moment, the answer is no. But to those who want to see the card disappear, trying to shift things so that is the case is not necessarily unreasonable.
So, instead of opening up the options and letting any color combination have some ramp options starting at turn 1 we isolate it to only decks that have green.
There's still plenty of colorless and non-green color identity artifacts out there. It appears that your argument is falling into the same fallacious pattern that a lot of other ones do of "Banning 1-2 cards has a gigantic impact on a format with over 16000 cards in it."
Osieorb18, having looked at the lists in your signature it is quite clear to me that we have very different EDH experiences. None of my decks are fully tuned, nor do I play many cards that I consider to be "unfun" for my opponents. My mana bases are pretty poor - I like to play temples, Odyssey filter lands, and pain lands - the most expensive land I own is cabal coffers. I think the difference in deck construction between metas and differing attitudes towards EDH is probably why the debate about Sol Ring's hypothetical banning is so polarising.
Yes and no. The decks I have on here are not exclusively representative of how I build decks. Those are really just the decks that got to the point that I would show them off, so to speak. I've played in a variety of levels of play and I certainly feel that Sol Ring becomes a problem at all levels, especially less-competitive ones.
Green has the same potential for powerful plays, but it's risker, less consistent, and more rigid.
The reason Sol Ring isn't copied, reanimated, and answered the same as other cards is because of its cmc and type. Blue doesn't have a ton of cheap copy effects, they end up copying whatever Sol Ring ramps out. Reanimating artifacts is much harder to do than creatures. Some creatures have more powerful effects than ring. If you're already reanimating something, you would prefer to get them. Lastly, Sol Ring generates mana the turn it comes down. Sol Ring answers your removal, not the other way around.
Yes and no. The decks I have on here are not exclusively representative of how I build decks. Those are really just the decks that got to the point that I would show them off, so to speak. I've played in a variety of levels of play and I certainly feel that Sol Ring becomes a problem at all levels, especially less-competitive ones.
Would you consider it a problem in the precons?
Yes, actually. In some more than others, too, which could be a good or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.
The reason Sol Ring isn't copied, reanimated, and answered the same as other cards is because of its cmc and type. Blue doesn't have a ton of cheap copy effects, they end up copying whatever Sol Ring ramps out. Reanimating artifacts is much harder to do than creatures. Some creatures have more powerful effects than ring. If you're already reanimating something, you would prefer to get them. Lastly, Sol Ring generates mana the turn it comes down. Sol Ring answers your removal, not the other way around.
Any deck that does not have blue, red, green, or to some degree white in it can make an argument that it can't respond to a turn 1 Sol Ring. Any deck with any color other than black should strategically be running a handful of answers to Sol Ring, unless there are non-strategic reasons why they shouldn't be in there.
Burgeoning only takes you as far as your hand will allow. This example is thrown around plenty, and is hardly apples to apples. Late game with an empty hand, Sol Ring is still +1. Alternatively, 3 of your opening 7 cards need to be lands, including burgeoning, for this to equal the effect of Sol Ring. 4 out of 7 vs. 2. Yeah, now this is a poor argument.
Context is important. I'm not comparing the two cards.
If you don't think a turn 1 Burgeoning applies to that situation, I don't know what to tell you.
Sol Ring is played in almost every commander deck, thanks to every single precon making them widly available.
What if EDH has a rule that in your command zone at the start of the game, you had both your commander and Sol Ring? You could cast Ring like normal, but if it died it would ineligable for the commander replacment effect so it would just go to the graveyard.
No unfair games where somebody gets the Sol Ring boost, since now everybody has the same advantage.
How will the games play out? Next time I play, I'll run this test and report back.
Why are people talking about removal for Sol Ring? Look, when it lands on the battlefield early it's already too late. The fella is already 2 laps ahead.
And why are apologists still talking as if the argument only applies in competitive EDH. If anything, the argument (to ban fast mana) is to protect and balance the casual field. All the anecdotes thus far are mainly from games at one's own backyard or basement. What I encourage is for people to do third party observation. See some games in MTGO, travel abroad to GPs, see how EDH is played, etc. Not just from your own games where one can be so easily blindsided.
A casual house can always unban them at their own risk.
Why are people talking about removal for Sol Ring? Look, when it lands on the battlefield early it's already too late. The fella is already 2 laps ahead.
Actually, if it is removed within a turn cycle, they only net 1 mana out of it.
Why are people talking about removal for Sol Ring? Look, when it lands on the battlefield early it's already too late. The fella is already 2 laps ahead.
And why are apologists still talking as if the argument only applies in competitive EDH. If anything, the argument (to ban fast mana) is to protect and balance the casual field. All the anecdotes thus far are mainly from games at one's own backyard or basement. What I encourage is for people to do third party observation. See some games in MTGO, travel abroad to GPs, see how EDH is played, etc. Not just from your own games where one can be so easily blindsided.
A casual house can always unban them at their own risk.
I think the point people are making is in competitive EDH, T1 Sol Ring doesn't mean anything significantly. Quite honestly, I don't think anyone is really focusing on cEDH with their comments either...
The issue with banning fast mana, because a full fast mana ban is not only limited to Sol Ring (you need to add ~5 more cards to that equation too) is you could potentially suddenly see a strong shift in deck construction to include G to get more ramp. Fast mana does allow for certain decks, like RW, UB, UWB, and UR as examples, to be viable and fun to play.
What progress can be made by the player who drops a Sol Ring that cannot be undone by the other players, assuming all the decks are of similar power level? Dropping a T1 Sol Ring usually puts a target on your head... If Sol Ring causes a lucky win before turn 6 then you can all just shuffle up and no harm is done. With regards to the ubiquity of the card I do not see this as a problem; if it were available only in 1 colour then I would take issue with it.
Sol Ring is not a balanced card but I think that is just fine in this format.
1. Sol Ring is iconic to the format
Being iconic only saves the card if players have a positive view of it. Twin was an iconic modern deck before it was banned.
2. Sol ring helps fuel epic plays
Anything that makes mana can be praised as fueling a powerful play. Should we unban Lotus, Moxes, Channel, Fastbond, and Academy?
3. Sol Ring is an oh-so-precious one-mana spell
I think there are plenty of other one drops that you can play. If you don’t like them and can’t wait two or three turns, there are faster formats that you can play.
4. Sol Ring helps mitigate some awkward draws due to the high variance of a 100-card deck
High variance is the reason we use 100-card decks. It is one of the goals of the format.
5. Sol Ring provides excellent ramp for those not playing green
Ramp decks are the ones that are built to capitalize on ramp cards. Banning sol ring will hurt green along with the other colors.
6. Sol Ring declares who’s going to be the archenemy
If you want to play Archenemy, you should play that instead.
7. Sol ring provides a good default target for Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Thada Adel has plenty of other targets.
8. Sol Ring makes main decking artifact kill worthwhile
Sol Ring is iconic to the format: So the format is for people who have the entitlement of having old cards, either through collecting them at that time, or having money. So you're calling the average EDH player entitled. Okay...
Sol Ring Helps Fuel Epic Plays: Every time an early Sol Ring happens, nobody rejoices. I really doubt that even the most staunch Sol Ring defenders feel joy in seeing someone else play the card early on. So "the impact will be larger," as you say, but "the storytelling potential" will be tainted by the early Sol Ring. I mean, this conversation is not uncommon: "I did this awesome play... blah blah early Sol Ring blah blah" "That's cool, I guess. Wouldn't have been possible without the early Sol Ring, though."
Sol Ring Is an Oh-So-Precious One-Mana Spell: There are over 1700 zero-mana or one-mana spells.
Sol Ring Helps Mitigate Some Awkward Draws Due to the High Variance of a 100-Card Deck: You can say this about a huge number of cards. And besides, luck and variance are aspects of the game, and awkward draws are going to happen. This is not something that will become significantly more of a problem without Sol Ring.
Sol Ring Provides Excellent Ramp for Those Not Playing Green:So do most of these... Also, Green doesn't have a card which is solely G for "T: Add GG to your mana pool." Also, Green players can run Sol Ring. So this really isn't an argument.
Sol Ring Declares Who's Going to Be the Archenemy: Having an archenemy isn't a sign of a healthy format. And "reluctance to start going on the offensive" is an irrationality which getting over makes people better players. Oh, and "Unless someone is playing Oloro, Ageless Ascetic—then you always turn early aggression their way" is just childish.
Sol Ring Provides a Good Default Target for Thada Adel, Acquisitor: So what?!? I could say the same about Black Lotus! Should we unban that for this reason?
Sol Ring Makes Maindecking Artifact Kill Worthwhile: This is a good point, but it isn't taken to the level that it really should be, of heavy artifact hate in every that can run it to deal with Sol Ring. And, if you think about it at that point, using similar logic to this article, Sol Ring is unfair against people playing Black, as every other color has cheap responses to it.
Here's another deconstruction from the comments of the article:
I disagree with every point you made in this article. Each of your arguments in favor of not banning Sol Ring are based on personal experience. While, admittedly, my responses are also based on personal experience, I think it's important to provide counter-arguments when taking a stance on any issue.
- Sol Ring Is Iconic to the Format
Primeval Titan was also iconic to the format, but it got the banhammer due to it not playing well with the texture of the format.
- Sol Ring Helps Fuel Epic Plays
Sol Ring also contracts the game for one player to the point that no one else gets to make epic plays. Because the format is all about multiplayer politics and resource building, even without Sol Ring epic plays would still happen.
- Sol Ring Is an Oh-So-Precious One-Mana Spell
This is not so much a defense of Sol Ring as it is a critique of bad deckbuilding. Sol Ring actually incentivizes you to play less low-cost spells because it usually doesn't help you cast them. I usually consider cutting Sol Ring from my deck if it has a high amount of one- and two-drops.
- Sol Ring Helps Mitigate Some Awkward Draws Due to the High Variance of a 100-Card Deck
So does playing more lands.
- Sol Ring Provides Excellent Ramp for Those Not Playing Green
Yes, but at the same time it also provides ramp to the green decks, and it lets them pull ahead even quicker thanks to enabling turn 2 Oracle, Cultivate, or Kodama's Reach.
- Sol Ring Declares Who's Going to Be the Archenemy
Fair point, but this is actually a good argument against Sol Ring. If playing one makes you the archenemy, isn't there something inherently bad/threatening about the card?
- Sol Ring Provides a Good Default Target for Thada Adel, Acquisitor
This is like arguing that Griselbrand or Emrakul were okay because they provided a good default target for Bribery. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
- Sol Ring Makes Maindecking Artifact Kill Worthwhile
So do all the Swords of X and Y, Umezawa's Jitte, Gilded Lotus, Birthing Pod, and any other powerful artifact. Sol Ring isn't the reason people play artifact hate; it's the reason people are forced to play 1-mana artifact hate.
Bennie Smith actually responded to that:
- Sol Ring Is Iconic to the Format>>Primeval Titan was also iconic to the format, but it got the banhammer due to it not playing well with the texture of the format.
No, Primeval Titan came late to the party, ate up all the cake and drank everyone's beer. So he got booted from the party. Sol Ring has existed since Sheldon's friends first started kicking around the idea of building decks around the Elder Dragon legends and planted the seed of the format in his mind.
- Sol Ring Helps Fuel Epic Plays>>Sol Ring also contracts the game for one player to the point that no one else gets to make epic plays. Because the format is all about multiplayer politics and resource building, even without Sol Ring epic plays would still happen.
Two things: either your play group is way too cut-throat and needs to relax a bit, or… Congrats, that was quick, hey we have time for another game!
- Sol Ring Is an Oh-So-Precious One-Mana Spell>>This is not so much a defense of Sol Ring as it is a critique of bad deckbuilding. Sol Ring actually incentivizes you to play less low-cost spells because it usually doesn't help you cast them. I usually consider cutting Sol Ring from my deck if it has a high amount of one- and two-drops.
If you're building your entire deck banking on having a turn 1 Sol Ring in your 100 card singleton deck then I think that's where the bad deckbuilding is going on.
- Sol Ring Helps Mitigate Some Awkward Draws Due to the High Variance of a 100-Card Deck>>So does playing more lands.
That goes without saying. So we agree here?
- Sol Ring Provides Excellent Ramp for Those Not Playing Green >>Yes, but at the same time it also provides ramp to the green decks, and it lets them pull ahead even quicker thanks to enabling turn 2 Oracle, Cultivate, or Kodama's Reach.
Yes, let those green ramp decks play all the ramp spells so they can play more ramp spells so they can draw more ramp spells and then when (if) they finally draw their big payoff spell someone can Force it or Time Stop it or Spell Crumple it and the rest of us can go back to playing fun stuff.
- Sol Ring Makes Maindecking Artifact Kill Worthwhile>>So do all the Swords of X and Y, Umezawa's Jitte, Gilded Lotus, Birthing Pod, and any other powerful artifact. Sol Ring isn't the reason people play artifact hate; it's the reason people are forced to play 1-mana artifact hate.
True, but if Sol Ring wasn't in the format how many times would an artifact kill spell in your opening hand otherwise be an effective mulligan? With Sol Ring in the format you snap keep and know that you're gonna be the hero of the table when you nuke that guy’s turn 1 Sol Ring.
Adrian Sullivan responded to Bennie Smith's Responses:
>> No, Primeval Titan came late to the party, ate up all the cake and drank everyone's beer. So he got booted from the party. Sol Ring has existed since Sheldon’s friends first started kicking around the idea of building decks around the Elder Dragon legends and planted the seed of the format in his mind.
I.e. Sol Ring is a sacred cow.
>> Two things: either your play group is way too cut-throat and needs to relax a bit, or… Congrats, that was quick, hey we have time for another game!
DBAD (Don't Be A Dick) is a proven bad way to run a format (see Five Color).
>> If you’re building your entire deck banking on having a turn 1 Sol Ring in your 100 card singleton deck then I think that's where the bad deckbuilding is going on.
Love you, Bennie Smith, writer, but you're making a straw person of his minor, valid point. You are not responding to his point "Incentivizes", and his point is true whether Sol Ring is on turn 1, 10, or 30.
>> That goes without saying. So we agree here?
So, point to "we don't need Sol Ring".
>> Yes, let those green ramp decks play all the ramp spells so they can play more ramp spells so they can draw more ramp spells and then when (if) they finally draw their big payoff spell someone can Force it or Time Stop it or Spell Crumple it and the rest of us can go back to playing fun stuff.
A cheap counterspell will stop the big spell just as well, unless it is uncounterable or Eldrazi-triggered. But the green ramping deck still is disproportionately helped out by the Sol Ring. (And, on another point, the other real fix is "no search", but I know that is a different discussion.)
>> True, but if Sol Ring wasn’t in the format how many times would an artifact kill spell in your opening hand otherwise be an effective mulligan? With Sol Ring in the format you snap keep and know that you’re gonna be the hero of the table when you nuke that guy’s turn 1 Sol Ring.
Yes, you're right: getting rid of a Sol Ring makes you a hero. Bennie Smith, writer: please be a hero for all player's everywhere by helping advocate for its removal, rather than just a hero to one to three other players in a single game.
That article is embarrassing levels of self-contradiction.
"Sol Ring fuels epic plays! Like an early Tooth and Nail when it's got deadly impact! And it's so good that makes you the archenemy and all the spotlight is on you! These are supposedly good things... but also Sol Ring mitigates awkward draws, which is important because you don't want players to be left behind like I spend two points advocating!"
"Sol Ring is the great color equalizer that lets people play non-green decks and still have ramp! Also, it's existence in the format incentivizes maindecking artifact removal, and I'd go so far as to advocate for playing cards that remove artifacts or enchantments, an effect that only exists in two colors and is most efficiently done by green. So hooray! Sol Ring makes it so you can try not to play green but you're stupid if you don't!"
"Sol Ring is important because 1-drops don't work in EDH. But it also needs to be played or people won't know who to attack with their Bloodsoaked Champion!"
Obviously I'm exaggerating quite a bit here, but that's absurd nonsense.
Also, the argument about whether it helps or hurts green should be irrelevant. People shouldn't be picking their deck colors based on how strong the deck would be. Anyone who goes "I'd really like to play a Mardu deck, but it's so bad at ramping since they banned Sol Ring, so I won't do it" is playing the wrong format. I know telling people they don't belong here is harsh and inflammatory, but whether you want to call EDH casual or social, the format is meant to be played for the joy of playing it. The moment you start deciding against doing what you want to because you don't think it would be strong enough, you're doing it wrong.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Sol Ring is played in almost every commander deck, thanks to every single precon making them widly available.
What if EDH has a rule that in your command zone at the start of the game, you had both your commander and Sol Ring? You could cast Ring like normal, but if it died it would ineligable for the commander replacment effect so it would just go to the graveyard.
No unfair games where somebody gets the Sol Ring boost, since now everybody has the same advantage.
How will the games play out? Next time I play, I'll run this test and report back.
I did the test, only managed to get one game in though because it was on the longside. Even played my 4-color deck to show that I wasn't just using it to ramp out my commander on turn 2.
Things that happened.
1. We only drew 6 card hands since we treated the Ring as a free card.
2. 3 of the players played their Ring on turn 1. One player choose not to play ring t1, opted for a CIPT land instead and played ring turn 2.
3. Nobody had any crazy followup to turn t1 ring, like signet, greaves. The best turn 2 we had was a King Macar, the Gold-Cursed.
4. None of the rings died at any point.
5. The game played out with a Naya and Grixis aggro decks playing beaters, with the other decks trying to keep their heads above water. My superfriends deck won eventually after getting to Doubling Season into Tamiyo emblem.
6. I asked my oppoenents what they thought of the game. One said "Never want to play that way again, it made things too fast." (I kinda disagree with his assesment, we didn't have any crazy explosive plays that just ended the game in an early turn and we played for quite awhile.) The other two players said, "It kept things even, it was nice. Didn't have to worry about manascrew."
I can imagine there're smarter apologists out there; and seeing Bennie Smith's hideous efforts has thrown all the logical arguments (if there're any for Sol Ring) out the window. He may wanna go for an IQ test before he writes another article. SCG shouldn't be handing him a paycheck for that. It insults people who have at least some ounce of logic, not just people who detest Sol Ring in the format; it insults anyone who read it with a logical mindset.
Definitely the "Brain-Drainer Article of the Year". It's close to the end of the year... and there isn't any room for new nominees...
His article only strengthens the anti-Sol Ring cause IMO.
Small aside... I'm pretty sure he's reading the forums. He could be a poster for all we know. He could be the nicest guy on Earth... but man... please don't publish that... Blame your editor!!! lol
Public Mod Note
(Jivanmukta):
Warning for flaming - Jiv
The issue with sol ring is that when EDH was new, sol ring was not as easy to find as it is now 13 different sol ring editions available. It is no longer a card that is difficult to obtain. It is not like a dual and that has a high price and hard to find in the more "mom and pop" card shops. That is hwy sol ring doe snot need a ban. What is it like a buck/sol ring? VERY small investment to get a sol ring these days. With it so avilble to the public, it has no need for a ban.
The issue with sol ring is that when EDH was new, sol ring was not as easy to find as it is now 13 different sol ring editions available. It is no longer a card that is difficult to obtain. It is not like a dual and that has a high price and hard to find in the more "mom and pop" card shops. That is hwy sol ring doe snot need a ban. What is it like a buck/sol ring? VERY small investment to get a sol ring these days. With it so avilble to the public, it has no need for a ban.
Primeval Titan has been printed 4 times if you include Promos, yet resides on the banned list.
Simarily, Timetwister, a P9 member, is legal. Tell me, how easy it is to obtain that?
Sorry, but this is the worst argument yet, in my opinion.
Obtainability has no bearing on whether a card should be banned or not. PBtE is a thing, but most cards in that category hit many other ban criterias besides that one.
Obtainability has no bearing on whether a card should be banned or not. PBtE is a thing, but most cards in that category hit many other ban criterias besides that one.
Obtainability should be considered when it is game breaking. Timtwister (to me) is not game breaking, just annoying. With sol ring available to everyone, not running it is your own decision an not because you cannot find/afford it. That gives you the same chance as everyone else to have it in your opening hand.
As for Mishra's workshop. Tough to obtian but only usable on artifacts. Like sol ring it is not great late game. As for Chains no one i know ill run that simply due to everyone wanting to draw cards. Imperisal seal is a really bad VT.
Regardless of power level I think Sol Ring has been grandfathered in and should be exempt from banning by virtue of it being Sol Ring.
plus if they ban sol ring. every pre-con is no longer legal to play
Trade Secrets is already banned, therefore, 1 is already illegal to play. Replacing it with a basic land isn't asking the world of anybody.
As for your 2nd post. So if Black Lotus was distributed to everybody, it should come of the list? Toud have the same chance as everybody else to have it in your opening hand. So, your saying the game has nothing to do with skill, and is strictly based on chance. That line of reasoning is just ridiculous. Obtainablity has no impact on actual gameplay, which is where Sol Ring causes the problems that have been highlighted. I can tell you that all of my games, and I'd wager all of the games others play, include Sol Rings in every deck at the table. So, somehow, by your logic, that means it can't be problematic? Ridiculous is the most pleasant way I can describe that.
Regardless of power level I think Sol Ring has been grandfathered in and should be exempt from banning by virtue of it being Sol Ring.
This is a bad arguments. No card should be exempt from the ban hammer. Yes, I think that just like Balance is probably the last card to come off the ban list Sol Ring is the last card to ever make the ban list, but regardless I think it is very poor format management if you are unwilling to even examine a card.
Regardless of power level I think Sol Ring has been grandfathered in and should be exempt from banning by virtue of it being Sol Ring.
This is a bad arguments. No card should be exempt from the ban hammer. Yes, I think that just like Balance is probably the last card to come off the ban list Sol Ring is the last card to ever make the ban list, but regardless I think it is very poor format management if you are unwilling to even examine a card.
I don't mean it should be exempt just for existing. I'm saying at this point in time after all the discussion and how firmly ingrained into the format from both a play and philosophical level it is effectively "unbannable" for a lack of a better phrase.
It's not that there shouldn't be discussion, it's that the decision has been made whether or not some people accept it.
Explain to me how this is going to help balance and prevent negative play experience.
And I would be capable of casting any colored spell of up to 10 casting cost that doesn't require more than 4 of a non-green color within the limits of my chosen colors for the deck.
And at the moment, the answer is no. But to those who want to see the card disappear, trying to shift things so that is the case is not necessarily unreasonable.
There's still plenty of colorless and non-green color identity artifacts out there. It appears that your argument is falling into the same fallacious pattern that a lot of other ones do of "Banning 1-2 cards has a gigantic impact on a format with over 16000 cards in it."
Yes and no. The decks I have on here are not exclusively representative of how I build decks. Those are really just the decks that got to the point that I would show them off, so to speak. I've played in a variety of levels of play and I certainly feel that Sol Ring becomes a problem at all levels, especially less-competitive ones.
The reason Sol Ring isn't copied, reanimated, and answered the same as other cards is because of its cmc and type. Blue doesn't have a ton of cheap copy effects, they end up copying whatever Sol Ring ramps out. Reanimating artifacts is much harder to do than creatures. Some creatures have more powerful effects than ring. If you're already reanimating something, you would prefer to get them. Lastly, Sol Ring generates mana the turn it comes down. Sol Ring answers your removal, not the other way around.
Yes, actually. In some more than others, too, which could be a good or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.
1 Copy Artifact
1 Sculpting Steel
Steal Effects
1 Dack Fayden
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Countermagic
1 Annul
1 Artifact Blast
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Force of Will
1 Force Spike
1 Mana Tithe
1 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Fragmentize
1 Meltdown
1 Natural State
1 Nature's Claim
1 Revoke Existence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Vandalblast
Any deck that does not have blue, red, green, or to some degree white in it can make an argument that it can't respond to a turn 1 Sol Ring. Any deck with any color other than black should strategically be running a handful of answers to Sol Ring, unless there are non-strategic reasons why they shouldn't be in there.
Context is important. I'm not comparing the two cards.
If you don't think a turn 1 Burgeoning applies to that situation, I don't know what to tell you.
Sol Ring is played in almost every commander deck, thanks to every single precon making them widly available.
What if EDH has a rule that in your command zone at the start of the game, you had both your commander and Sol Ring? You could cast Ring like normal, but if it died it would ineligable for the commander replacment effect so it would just go to the graveyard.
No unfair games where somebody gets the Sol Ring boost, since now everybody has the same advantage.
How will the games play out? Next time I play, I'll run this test and report back.
And why are apologists still talking as if the argument only applies in competitive EDH. If anything, the argument (to ban fast mana) is to protect and balance the casual field. All the anecdotes thus far are mainly from games at one's own backyard or basement. What I encourage is for people to do third party observation. See some games in MTGO, travel abroad to GPs, see how EDH is played, etc. Not just from your own games where one can be so easily blindsided.
A casual house can always unban them at their own risk.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Actually, if it is removed within a turn cycle, they only net 1 mana out of it.
The issue with banning fast mana, because a full fast mana ban is not only limited to Sol Ring (you need to add ~5 more cards to that equation too) is you could potentially suddenly see a strong shift in deck construction to include G to get more ramp. Fast mana does allow for certain decks, like RW, UB, UWB, and UR as examples, to be viable and fun to play.
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
1. Sol Ring is iconic to the format
Being iconic only saves the card if players have a positive view of it. Twin was an iconic modern deck before it was banned.
2. Sol ring helps fuel epic plays
Anything that makes mana can be praised as fueling a powerful play. Should we unban Lotus, Moxes, Channel, Fastbond, and Academy?
3. Sol Ring is an oh-so-precious one-mana spell
I think there are plenty of other one drops that you can play. If you don’t like them and can’t wait two or three turns, there are faster formats that you can play.
4. Sol Ring helps mitigate some awkward draws due to the high variance of a 100-card deck
High variance is the reason we use 100-card decks. It is one of the goals of the format.
5. Sol Ring provides excellent ramp for those not playing green
Ramp decks are the ones that are built to capitalize on ramp cards. Banning sol ring will hurt green along with the other colors.
6. Sol Ring declares who’s going to be the archenemy
If you want to play Archenemy, you should play that instead.
7. Sol ring provides a good default target for Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Thada Adel has plenty of other targets.
8. Sol Ring makes main decking artifact kill worthwhile
There are plenty of other good artifacts to hit.
Let's deconstruct this article...
Here's another deconstruction from the comments of the article:
- Sol Ring Is Iconic to the Format
Primeval Titan was also iconic to the format, but it got the banhammer due to it not playing well with the texture of the format.
- Sol Ring Helps Fuel Epic Plays
Sol Ring also contracts the game for one player to the point that no one else gets to make epic plays. Because the format is all about multiplayer politics and resource building, even without Sol Ring epic plays would still happen.
- Sol Ring Is an Oh-So-Precious One-Mana Spell
This is not so much a defense of Sol Ring as it is a critique of bad deckbuilding. Sol Ring actually incentivizes you to play less low-cost spells because it usually doesn't help you cast them. I usually consider cutting Sol Ring from my deck if it has a high amount of one- and two-drops.
- Sol Ring Helps Mitigate Some Awkward Draws Due to the High Variance of a 100-Card Deck
So does playing more lands.
- Sol Ring Provides Excellent Ramp for Those Not Playing Green
Yes, but at the same time it also provides ramp to the green decks, and it lets them pull ahead even quicker thanks to enabling turn 2 Oracle, Cultivate, or Kodama's Reach.
- Sol Ring Declares Who's Going to Be the Archenemy
Fair point, but this is actually a good argument against Sol Ring. If playing one makes you the archenemy, isn't there something inherently bad/threatening about the card?
- Sol Ring Provides a Good Default Target for Thada Adel, Acquisitor
This is like arguing that Griselbrand or Emrakul were okay because they provided a good default target for Bribery. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
- Sol Ring Makes Maindecking Artifact Kill Worthwhile
So do all the Swords of X and Y, Umezawa's Jitte, Gilded Lotus, Birthing Pod, and any other powerful artifact. Sol Ring isn't the reason people play artifact hate; it's the reason people are forced to play 1-mana artifact hate.
Bennie Smith actually responded to that:
No, Primeval Titan came late to the party, ate up all the cake and drank everyone's beer. So he got booted from the party. Sol Ring has existed since Sheldon's friends first started kicking around the idea of building decks around the Elder Dragon legends and planted the seed of the format in his mind.
- Sol Ring Helps Fuel Epic Plays>>Sol Ring also contracts the game for one player to the point that no one else gets to make epic plays. Because the format is all about multiplayer politics and resource building, even without Sol Ring epic plays would still happen.
Two things: either your play group is way too cut-throat and needs to relax a bit, or… Congrats, that was quick, hey we have time for another game!
- Sol Ring Is an Oh-So-Precious One-Mana Spell>>This is not so much a defense of Sol Ring as it is a critique of bad deckbuilding. Sol Ring actually incentivizes you to play less low-cost spells because it usually doesn't help you cast them. I usually consider cutting Sol Ring from my deck if it has a high amount of one- and two-drops.
If you're building your entire deck banking on having a turn 1 Sol Ring in your 100 card singleton deck then I think that's where the bad deckbuilding is going on.
- Sol Ring Helps Mitigate Some Awkward Draws Due to the High Variance of a 100-Card Deck>>So does playing more lands.
That goes without saying. So we agree here?
- Sol Ring Provides Excellent Ramp for Those Not Playing Green >>Yes, but at the same time it also provides ramp to the green decks, and it lets them pull ahead even quicker thanks to enabling turn 2 Oracle, Cultivate, or Kodama's Reach.
Yes, let those green ramp decks play all the ramp spells so they can play more ramp spells so they can draw more ramp spells and then when (if) they finally draw their big payoff spell someone can Force it or Time Stop it or Spell Crumple it and the rest of us can go back to playing fun stuff.
- Sol Ring Makes Maindecking Artifact Kill Worthwhile>>So do all the Swords of X and Y, Umezawa's Jitte, Gilded Lotus, Birthing Pod, and any other powerful artifact. Sol Ring isn't the reason people play artifact hate; it's the reason people are forced to play 1-mana artifact hate.
True, but if Sol Ring wasn't in the format how many times would an artifact kill spell in your opening hand otherwise be an effective mulligan? With Sol Ring in the format you snap keep and know that you're gonna be the hero of the table when you nuke that guy’s turn 1 Sol Ring.
Adrian Sullivan responded to Bennie Smith's Responses:
I.e. Sol Ring is a sacred cow.
>> Two things: either your play group is way too cut-throat and needs to relax a bit, or… Congrats, that was quick, hey we have time for another game!
DBAD (Don't Be A Dick) is a proven bad way to run a format (see Five Color).
>> If you’re building your entire deck banking on having a turn 1 Sol Ring in your 100 card singleton deck then I think that's where the bad deckbuilding is going on.
Love you, Bennie Smith, writer, but you're making a straw person of his minor, valid point. You are not responding to his point "Incentivizes", and his point is true whether Sol Ring is on turn 1, 10, or 30.
>> That goes without saying. So we agree here?
So, point to "we don't need Sol Ring".
>> Yes, let those green ramp decks play all the ramp spells so they can play more ramp spells so they can draw more ramp spells and then when (if) they finally draw their big payoff spell someone can Force it or Time Stop it or Spell Crumple it and the rest of us can go back to playing fun stuff.
A cheap counterspell will stop the big spell just as well, unless it is uncounterable or Eldrazi-triggered. But the green ramping deck still is disproportionately helped out by the Sol Ring. (And, on another point, the other real fix is "no search", but I know that is a different discussion.)
>> True, but if Sol Ring wasn’t in the format how many times would an artifact kill spell in your opening hand otherwise be an effective mulligan? With Sol Ring in the format you snap keep and know that you’re gonna be the hero of the table when you nuke that guy’s turn 1 Sol Ring.
Yes, you're right: getting rid of a Sol Ring makes you a hero. Bennie Smith, writer: please be a hero for all player's everywhere by helping advocate for its removal, rather than just a hero to one to three other players in a single game.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
"Sol Ring fuels epic plays! Like an early Tooth and Nail when it's got deadly impact! And it's so good that makes you the archenemy and all the spotlight is on you! These are supposedly good things... but also Sol Ring mitigates awkward draws, which is important because you don't want players to be left behind like I spend two points advocating!"
"Sol Ring is the great color equalizer that lets people play non-green decks and still have ramp! Also, it's existence in the format incentivizes maindecking artifact removal, and I'd go so far as to advocate for playing cards that remove artifacts or enchantments, an effect that only exists in two colors and is most efficiently done by green. So hooray! Sol Ring makes it so you can try not to play green but you're stupid if you don't!"
"Sol Ring is important because 1-drops don't work in EDH. But it also needs to be played or people won't know who to attack with their Bloodsoaked Champion!"
Obviously I'm exaggerating quite a bit here, but that's absurd nonsense.
Also, the argument about whether it helps or hurts green should be irrelevant. People shouldn't be picking their deck colors based on how strong the deck would be. Anyone who goes "I'd really like to play a Mardu deck, but it's so bad at ramping since they banned Sol Ring, so I won't do it" is playing the wrong format. I know telling people they don't belong here is harsh and inflammatory, but whether you want to call EDH casual or social, the format is meant to be played for the joy of playing it. The moment you start deciding against doing what you want to because you don't think it would be strong enough, you're doing it wrong.
I did the test, only managed to get one game in though because it was on the longside. Even played my 4-color deck to show that I wasn't just using it to ramp out my commander on turn 2.
Things that happened.
1. We only drew 6 card hands since we treated the Ring as a free card.
2. 3 of the players played their Ring on turn 1. One player choose not to play ring t1, opted for a CIPT land instead and played ring turn 2.
3. Nobody had any crazy followup to turn t1 ring, like signet, greaves. The best turn 2 we had was a King Macar, the Gold-Cursed.
4. None of the rings died at any point.
5. The game played out with a Naya and Grixis aggro decks playing beaters, with the other decks trying to keep their heads above water. My superfriends deck won eventually after getting to Doubling Season into Tamiyo emblem.
6. I asked my oppoenents what they thought of the game. One said "Never want to play that way again, it made things too fast." (I kinda disagree with his assesment, we didn't have any crazy explosive plays that just ended the game in an early turn and we played for quite awhile.) The other two players said, "It kept things even, it was nice. Didn't have to worry about manascrew."
Just my 2¢.
Definitely the "Brain-Drainer Article of the Year". It's close to the end of the year... and there isn't any room for new nominees...
His article only strengthens the anti-Sol Ring cause IMO.
Small aside... I'm pretty sure he's reading the forums. He could be a poster for all we know. He could be the nicest guy on Earth... but man... please don't publish that... Blame your editor!!! lol
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Primeval Titan has been printed 4 times if you include Promos, yet resides on the banned list.
Simarily, Timetwister, a P9 member, is legal. Tell me, how easy it is to obtain that?
Sorry, but this is the worst argument yet, in my opinion.
Obtainability has no bearing on whether a card should be banned or not. PBtE is a thing, but most cards in that category hit many other ban criterias besides that one.
Or Mishra's Workshop, or Chains of Mephistopheles, or Imperial Seal, or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale...
Obtainability should be considered when it is game breaking. Timtwister (to me) is not game breaking, just annoying. With sol ring available to everyone, not running it is your own decision an not because you cannot find/afford it. That gives you the same chance as everyone else to have it in your opening hand.
As for Mishra's workshop. Tough to obtian but only usable on artifacts. Like sol ring it is not great late game. As for Chains no one i know ill run that simply due to everyone wanting to draw cards. Imperisal seal is a really bad VT.
Tarbanacel i see played a lot in stax decks.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
plus if they ban sol ring. every pre-con is no longer legal to play.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Trade Secrets is already banned, therefore, 1 is already illegal to play. Replacing it with a basic land isn't asking the world of anybody.
As for your 2nd post. So if Black Lotus was distributed to everybody, it should come of the list? Toud have the same chance as everybody else to have it in your opening hand. So, your saying the game has nothing to do with skill, and is strictly based on chance. That line of reasoning is just ridiculous. Obtainablity has no impact on actual gameplay, which is where Sol Ring causes the problems that have been highlighted. I can tell you that all of my games, and I'd wager all of the games others play, include Sol Rings in every deck at the table. So, somehow, by your logic, that means it can't be problematic? Ridiculous is the most pleasant way I can describe that.
This is a bad arguments. No card should be exempt from the ban hammer. Yes, I think that just like Balance is probably the last card to come off the ban list Sol Ring is the last card to ever make the ban list, but regardless I think it is very poor format management if you are unwilling to even examine a card.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I don't mean it should be exempt just for existing. I'm saying at this point in time after all the discussion and how firmly ingrained into the format from both a play and philosophical level it is effectively "unbannable" for a lack of a better phrase.
It's not that there shouldn't be discussion, it's that the decision has been made whether or not some people accept it.