I'm more interested as to why one of the most vehement apologists (not a negative word) of the banlist (Sol Ring for the matter) in MTGS would have a 180 turn on the subject, and what caused the change in viewpoint. Was it the due diligence of playing more, observing more? Actually going out of their comfort zones (basement, your playgroup) and finding other playgroups to have a sensing of how EDH is generally played?
If you are talking about me (BTW I agree, if you want to lob accusations at someone, name them) then you have not been paying attention to my position. It used to be pro-ban, but switched as more people had them and played them, and it made for an interesting turn in later matches now and again. Maybe it was a good run, but no one really seemed to have a lot of gas past a 5 drop on T3 most 'early Sol Ring' games. So I shifted to 'its not so bad, and every card ruins a game now and then'. I never said it wasn't a problem early, nor was I hardcore about it being good for the format. I did backup the position that it was never more than 2 mana and that often wasnt enough to swing games.
I have always been close on it, and now I swung back because of this attitude about it more so than anything. I think banning it would send the right message and am giving them that feedback. I know a lot of other people have experienced what I have, so its about getting that message amplified.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
As one of the many 'theorists' you are referring to, I would like to point out I have done, and seen, many T1 SRs and can say that it has never ended a game or been the sole reason a game got out of hand too early.
If Sol Ring insta-win is the only thing you're looking for with regards to banning, than I don't think that you're paying attention to the right things. When they started printing commander precons and everyone had enough Sol Rings to go around, I used Sol Rings in my decks figuring an equal playing field would even things out, but before that, low availability often made Sol Ring a haves vs have-nots issue, and I criticized it from that angle. When there were two people in the group who had a Sol Ring for every deck, pointing out Sol Ring problems was more of a playful ribbing with friends about how they "really earned that win," but once Sol Rings were everywhere and I started paying attention to how things go relative to the use of Sol Ring, it really does just make the game worse.
It's not about someone going "turn 1 Sol Ring, I win suckas!" It's about 1 of the players at the table despairing that they didn't get to do anything before the game ended, which happens more often with Sol Rings involved. It's about somebody who can't play a turn 2 signet because they already have to leave counterspell mana up or risk letting the game get away from them, which happens more with Sol Rings. It's about 3 players taking turns like "land, Chromatic Lantern, pass" while one person is already in the mid-game chaining together 3 or 4 minute turns, which happens more with Sol Rings. It doesn't matter if the Sol Ring player wins or loses or if the game lasts 5 minutes or 5 hours, if the card is that effective at making people unhappy playing the game, the damage is done.
People more rarely complain directly about Sol Ring anymore (except turds like me) because it has the status quo firmly on its side, but you should pay attention to not just complaints about Sol Ring, but complaints that happen because of it.
The T1 Sol Ring is definitely not my only measuring stick, but beyond the early game effect of it, who really cares when it comes down? I disagree that Sol Ring makes the game worse, in fact I argue the opposite - it makes some games better or has no real lasting effect. The advantage that card brings also provides disadvantage, although it isn't measurable in the context of the card. The disadvantage is that playing it makes someone the 'archenemy' initially in a game. At some point, this needs to happen, and the earlier the better imo.
In regards to the game ending before someone could do something, there are numerous factors that can cause that - missing lands (poor draws), other players preventing plays, and being outramped to generically name a few.
The disadvantage is that playing it makes someone the 'archenemy' initially in a game. At some point, this needs to happen, and the earlier the better imo.
You are aware that you can play a multiplayer game of magic where everyone stays equally relevant until the end, right? There is no mandate that one player has to be archenemy.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I disagree that Sol Ring makes the game worse, in fact I argue the opposite - it makes some games better or has no real lasting effect. The advantage that card brings also provides disadvantage, although it isn't measurable in the context of the card. The disadvantage is that playing it makes someone the 'archenemy' initially in a game. At some point, this needs to happen, and the earlier the better imo.
This just feels like doublethink. Sol Ring is a disadvantage because it forces the other players to gang up on you to counter the advantage it provides? You're not seeing the problem with that logic?
I don't remember who said it first, and a few people here have said as much, but if a card turns the game into Archenemy then that card should really be evaluated for its effect on the format. Obviously, "turns the game into archenemy" shouldn't be a BL criteria, but it is certainly an indicator.
I disagree that Sol Ring makes the game worse, in fact I argue the opposite - it makes some games better or has no real lasting effect. The advantage that card brings also provides disadvantage, although it isn't measurable in the context of the card. The disadvantage is that playing it makes someone the 'archenemy' initially in a game. At some point, this needs to happen, and the earlier the better imo.
This just feels like doublethink. Sol Ring is a disadvantage because it forces the other players to gang up on you to counter the advantage it provides? You're not seeing the problem with that logic?
Maybe I am the only one that see it this way, but there is always someone who is the 'archenemy' in a EDH game - someone does something to draw attacks/removal/counters. Officially, there is no rule saying 'You can't do anything to hurt someone before X turn' or 'You can't win the game before X turn', so why does it matter really how it happens?
So to respond to your question: Do I care that a Sol Ring can do that and do I see an issue with my logic? No, not really. I'm more of a 'deal with the chicken instead of the egg' type of player. Why waste the removal on Sol Ring when the removal could deal with the problem itself?
I don't remember who said it first, and a few people here have said as much, but if a card turns the game into Archenemy then that card should really be evaluated for its effect on the format. Obviously, "turns the game into archenemy" shouldn't be a BL criteria, but it is certainly an indicator.
Refer to my above response, but to me the reason that ban criteria exists is it's subjective to each player. T1 Sol Rings make people drop from games in MTGO and then in other situations people don't care - I think the issue is the player's attitudes themselves and not the actual card.
So to respond to your question: Do I care that a Sol Ring can do that and do I see an issue with my logic? No, not really. I'm more of a 'deal with the chicken instead of the egg' type of player. Why waste the removal on Sol Ring when the removal could deal with the problem itself?
That's not "dealing with the chicken instead of the egg." That is not a platitude that actually exists, because it is terrible advice. You do not chase the symptoms of a problem, you deal with the root cause. Do you understand why Channel and Black Lotus are banned but Fireball is not? Enablers are the problem.
Lol so true when we've people who can't tell if it's a chicken or an egg.
I believe I was one of the early guys to term the word archenemy (not the format). That said, I still can't believe many people think fast mana isn't the problem here. It makes me feel that us anti-fast mana guys are in some kind of cult in the entire EDH section.
Fast mana bannings are always the first to go in any given format. History has backed that up, data has proven formats do better without them. And it doesn't matter if you're competitive or casual.
Lol so true when we've people who can't tell if it's a chicken or an egg.
See, you're doing it again. It sounds like you're referring to someone specifically. Are you intentionally vaugeposting?
I believe I was one of the early guys to term the word archenemy (not the format). That said, I still can't believe many people think fast mana isn't the problem here. It makes me feel that us anti-fast mana guys are in some kind of cult in the entire EDH section.
Well if you choose to identify yourself as a small minority of players who know better than the RC and know for a fact that fast mana is ruining the format, then yeah you probably are treated like a cult. Just like you guys think that your polar opposite drank the EDH kool-aid.
Fast mana bannings are always the first to go in any given format. History has backed that up, data has proven formats do better without them. And it doesn't matter if you're competitive or casual.
Sure. Every other format says "we don't want games to end before turn X" and uses data to reach that goal. And fast mana is always the first to go because the primary objective is to win faster than your opponent. That is the mentality players have in those formats. EDH doesn't have that mentality, and if you want data to back it up, go look in the decklist forum and tell me how many decks run Sol Ring AND Mana Crypt AND Mana Vault and whatever other rocks you consider broken. Heck, just look at the primers which are supposed to be some of the most developed lists.
So if you want to argue that a card like Sol Ring doesn't add to the format and has the potential to ruin a game here and there, I've got your back. But you seem to be taking this to an extreme and I have to disagree with your overall stance.
Sure. Every other format says "we don't want games to end before turn X" and uses data to reach that goal. And fast mana is always the first to go because the primary objective is to win faster than your opponent. That is the mentality players have in those formats. EDH doesn't have that mentality, and if you want data to back it up, go look in the decklist forum and tell me how many decks run Sol Ring AND Mana Crypt AND Mana Vault and whatever other rocks you consider broken. Heck, just look at the primers which are supposed to be some of the most developed lists.
So if you want to argue that a card like Sol Ring doesn't add to the format and has the potential to ruin a game here and there, I've got your back. But you seem to be taking this to an extreme and I have to disagree with your overall stance.
Sol Ring adds nothing to the format and ruins games independent of the mentality of the player using it. By a certain interpretation of the Rules Committees decisions, ruining games without the deliberate mentality to do so is the single banning criteria. In no other world do Prophet of Kruphix, Worldfire, and Black Lotus sit side-by-side except through the lens that they do harm even with the best intentions.
I'm with you that we can't judge this banlist through the lens of other formats, and I know your post was specifically to counter that idea, but I don't think looking at fast mana through the lens of well developed primers is nearly as important as seeing the impact with players who aren't putting that level of personal dedication into their deck-building.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I think that is a flawed stance. It isn't strictly true that it adds nothing to the format, it just doesn't add much. Similarly, a blanket statement of "it ruins gsmes" isn't entirely true since this isn't always the case. Lastly, I know you are smart enough to know why the cards you listed aren't apples to apples since thrre are other reasons for their ban which don't apply to SR.
That's not "dealing with the chicken instead of the egg." That is not a platitude that actually exists, because it is terrible advice. You do not chase the symptoms of a problem, you deal with the root cause. Do you understand why Channel and Black Lotus are banned but Fireball is not? Enablers are the problem.
Your opinion, not my own - I don't see Sol Ring as a symptom of a problem in the format. In fact, I think it's a bad route to say Sol Ring is a symptom of a problem because the problem you're referring to (Fast Mana) has a long list of cards that promote that and removing Sol Ring could potentially cause even more issues with out of control ramp. In a casual format like this, Sol Ring is a great first step into ramping for many decks that cannot take advantage of spell-based ramp. You could argue that it actually evens the playing field for some decks, say mono white, against other decks that can naturally ramp, any deck containing green.
For the record, Black Lotus is more PBTE, like most of the Power 9, than the fast mana part, considering it's a one time effect. Not to say Fast mana isn't a good enough reason on its own, but the discussion really has never been made due to the PBTE part.
Lol so true when we've people who can't tell if it's a chicken or an egg.
I believe I was one of the early guys to term the word archenemy (not the format). That said, I still can't believe many people think fast mana isn't the problem here. It makes me feel that us anti-fast mana guys are in some kind of cult in the entire EDH section.
Fast mana bannings are always the first to go in any given format. History has backed that up, data has proven formats do better without them. And it doesn't matter if you're competitive or casual.
I don't consider you a cult, but in a 99 card deck, singleton format, the ability to consistently net fast mana comes at a distinct cost to the deckbuilder. Any noob to EDH has built a deck that contained too much ramp and that has caused them issues.
In regards to the format, yes there have been some fast mana bannings, but the scale is different compared to the other 1v1 formats where the advantage is much more hazardous. Again, a T1 SR can contribute to someone winning, but it's safe to say that it isn't the only reason someone ends up winning an EDH game. The multiplayer dynamic of the format does lessen the issue to a large extent.
I suppose I could have said "Sol Ring can [do those things]" rather than "Sol Ring [does those things]," I was just trying to parallel the language of the argument you found reasonable in the post I quoted. I don't think "Sol Ring ruins games" necessarily means "Sol Ring ruins every game it touches," but I could have been clearer.
But the fact that those cards don't compare apples to apples with Sol Ring is the point. Those 3 cards don't compare apples to apples with each other. I tried to pick 3 different cards with very different effects and power levels. Black Lotus is fast mana that breaks games in half, particularly competitive games. Prophet of Kruphix is a much slower card that hurts games in a grindier, value-driven deck while doing little damage at a competitive table. Worldfire isn't even a card I'm convinced anyone would seriously play outside of Jhoira of the Ghitu. The 3 cards have basically nothing in common except that a lot of people just don't want to play against them, and that's ban criteria #1 on the list of reasons to ban a card. And I'd argue it's the only criteria, cause two of the other 4 listed criteria are useless and the other 2 are redundant.
Percieved barrier to entry is actively ignored. This is explicit, cards are no longer banned for this reason, it was just for the early days of the format to keep people from thinking it was a power 9 format. On the other hand, only 8 of those 9 are banned, and Timetwister isn't particularly easier to acquire than Time Walk, so it's hard to say this criteria ever really applied or was ever really necessary.
Warps the format strategically, I think we agree, just isn't a problem. Everyone knows Zur is a menace, and I haven't seen Zur in like 5 years. Nobody is afraid of a Mayael fatty deck and there's one in almost every playgroup I've ever played with. Cards and strategies being well-known threats across playgroups scares away at least as many EDH players as it attracts. So this criteria is useless.
Produces too much mana too quickly is a legitimate concern, but "too quickly" is definitely a subjective phrase, and the opinion the phrase is subjected to is "how fast can you accelerate before your opponents get upset about not being able to keep up", which means too much mana too quickly is just a subset of creating undesirable situations.
And if produces mana too quickly is redundant, interacts badly with the format is really redundant. All the cards banned for this reason weren't printed with edh in mind, which is just a longer explanation of why they create undesirable situations. Like, you can ban Karakas for interacting badly with the format, but ultimately you do so because it creates an undesirable situation. You can ban Limited Resources for operating poorly in multiplayer, but the real problem is it makes an undesirable situation.
Sol Ring creates undesirable situations, fitting the only real ban criteria.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Warps the format strategically, I think we agree, just isn't a problem. Everyone knows Zur is a menace, and I haven't seen Zur in like 5 years. Nobody is afraid of a Mayael fatty deck and there's one in almost every playgroup I've ever played with. Cards and strategies being well-known threats across playgroups scares away at least as many EDH players as it attracts. So this criteria is useless.
I disagree here, actually. And I doubt that I'm the only one. Having played with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, with Primeval Titan, and with Sylvan Primordial, it was not that the cards themselves are overly powerful or particularly unpleasant to play against, it was that they became ubiquitously game-warping. The game was all about getting those cards. And that can happen with any card. Some might even say that it happens with Sol Ring.
I disagree here, actually. And I doubt that I'm the only one. Having played with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, with Primeval Titan, and with Sylvan Primordial, it was not that the cards themselves are overly powerful or particularly unpleasant to play against, it was that they became ubiquitously game-warping. The game was all about getting those cards. And that can happen with any card. Some might even say that it happens with Sol Ring.
I would bet my entire magic collection that if any of those cards weren't banned, the problem would have solved itself, but not a single one of those escaped standard rotation before their bans. It's my belief that the primary motivation when choosing cards for the vast majority of people playing this format is what they want to play rather than what they feel is strongest, and cards definitely have a honeymoon period where they're new and exciting and copies are in everyone's trade binders, and that's long since gone for all those cards.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Again, a T1 SR can contribute to someone winning, but it's safe to say that it isn't the only reason someone ends up winning an EDH game. The multiplayer dynamic of the format does lessen the issue to a large extent.
So in the scenario I most often see as 'the issue' - 4 drop T2-T3 followed by a 5 drop T3-T4. If that person wins without someone mounting a real defense due to turn constraints (ie died before they could answer), did Sol Ring win that game to you? Did the other cards played win the game to you? Or is this not something you see often / don't feel is an issue?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I disagree here, actually. And I doubt that I'm the only one. Having played with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, with Primeval Titan, and with Sylvan Primordial, it was not that the cards themselves are overly powerful or particularly unpleasant to play against, it was that they became ubiquitously game-warping. The game was all about getting those cards. And that can happen with any card. Some might even say that it happens with Sol Ring.
I would bet my entire magic collection that if any of those cards weren't banned, the problem would have solved itself, but not a single one of those escaped standard rotation before their bans. It's my belief that the primary motivation when choosing cards for the vast majority of people playing this format is what they want to play rather than what they feel is strongest, and cards definitely have a honeymoon period where they're new and exciting and copies are in everyone's trade binders, and that's long since gone for all those cards.
First, Primeval Titanwas legal for an entire Standard rotation (plus a few months) before it was banned.
If I recall correctly, I was neutral on Emrakul, the Aeons Torn at the time it was legal, but it was a definite problem, and would most certainly be a problem now were it to be unbanned.
I was not actively playing while Sylvan Primordial was legal, but from what others around here have told me, it is unlikely that problem would have gone away on its own.
On a side note, I still disagree with Primeval Titan being banned. However, I admit it was far more deserving of a ban than Prophet of Kruphix, for the same reasons as Prophet.
I would bet my entire magic collection that if any of those cards weren't banned, the problem would have solved itself, but not a single one of those escaped standard rotation before their bans. It's my belief that the primary motivation when choosing cards for the vast majority of people playing this format is what they want to play rather than what they feel is strongest, and cards definitely have a honeymoon period where they're new and exciting and copies are in everyone's trade binders, and that's long since gone for all those cards.
Ah, but you are forgetting that many players did not view Primeval Titan as a "problem". In fact, most people "solved" the problem by running more ways to capitalize on 100% of green decks running PT, be it theft, clones, reanimation, etc. So to liken it to Sol Ring, the answer to other players running Sol Ring is to run it harder? Doesn't sound like a solved problem.
And that is the problem with your assessment of warping the format. It doesn't just mean that a card is a known threat that has to be dealt with on the spot, it means that the card is so powerful and has so much of an impact on the game that EVERYONE is either running it or preparing for it during the deck-building stage, and once it is in play the game focuses on that card. Sol Ring doesn't quite fit this criteria because while it is ubiquitous, there is not much vocal evidence to suggest that players are filling their decks with answers to the card.
Ah, but you are forgetting that many players did not view Primeval Titan as a "problem". In fact, most people "solved" the problem by running more ways to capitalize on 100% of green decks running PT, be it theft, clones, reanimation, etc. So to liken it to Sol Ring, the answer to other players running Sol Ring is to run it harder? Doesn't sound like a solved problem.
And that is the problem with your assessment of warping the format. It doesn't just mean that a card is a known threat that has to be dealt with on the spot, it means that the card is so powerful and has so much of an impact on the game that EVERYONE is either running it or preparing for it during the deck-building stage, and once it is in play the game focuses on that card. Sol Ring doesn't quite fit this criteria because while it is ubiquitous, there is not much vocal evidence to suggest that players are filling their decks with answers to the card.
Ok, but if they kept running those things just by the argument that Primeval Titan is around, they'd start having problems when it stopped being played everywhere because people got bored and wanted to play with newer, shinier toys. Prime Time is a strong card, but it's not stronger than all the broken old crap, it's not new enough to be excitingly fresh, and it has the staleness of being a long-term competitive staple in another format already. Nobody is fighting for Prime Time because people don't particularly care to play it anymore.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
So in the scenario I most often see as 'the issue' - 4 drop T2-T3 followed by a 5 drop T3-T4. If that person wins without someone mounting a real defense due to turn constraints (ie died before they could answer), did Sol Ring win that game to you? Did the other cards played win the game to you? Or is this not something you see often / don't feel is an issue?
I do believe that your outlined situation is an extreme rarity, but I'll go along with the outlined scenario for this post at least.
In that hypothetical situation, no the Sol Ring didn't win the game because I struggle to find a combination of a 4 drop and a 5 drop that would end the game or at least completely kill one person without over extending significantly and causing the remaining players to probably kill them.
I can't recall where this came up, probably the Iona thread, but people seem to disregard the multiplayer aspect of this game. I find that assuming other players would not contribute to stopping the ramped player is probably not what would occur in a casual game, in fact more often than not if someone is being beat up on exclusively they do actually help. Recent example via games: while playing my Zur Astral Slide deck, I was bouncing Gonti, Lord of Luxury and targeting only one player, a Bant CIP deck, but the other two went out of their ways several times to destroy my Astral Slide when it never effected them. Reality is in casual games people are generally nice and want to help, not just always be selfish.
Ok, but if they kept running those things just by the argument that Primeval Titan is around, they'd start having problems when it stopped being played everywhere because people got bored and wanted to play with newer, shinier toys. Prime Time is a strong card, but it's not stronger than all the broken old crap, it's not new enough to be excitingly fresh, and it has the staleness of being a long-term competitive staple in another format already. Nobody is fighting for Prime Time because people don't particularly care to play it anymore.
Why would people stop playing it? It was some of the best ramp available, and it was for that reason that it was pkayed, not because it was broken or exciting. The only reason people aren't fighting for it now is because after being forced to remove it from their decks and seeing how games are now, they can see just how much of an impact it had and they are happier now. If Sol Ring were banned we would probably see the same result to a lesser amount, but not quite since Sol Ring doesn't get played like a mini-game as soon as someone plays it.
Why are you so convinced there's a mini game surrounding PT? Lotsa creatures get abused, Rune-Scarred Demon is one big example. It doesn't just apply to PT.
So why isn't Sol Ring a mini-game during turns 1-4, considering these turns are the most important in crafting your strategy out. Which, in turn, is arguably more pronounced than a PT situation because it happens way too early, too fast.
Because, comparatively, I see much less Consecrated Sphinx anymore, or Palinchron, or Defense of the Heart, or Mind Over Matter, or Necropotence, or Armageddon, or Time Stretch, or Jhoira Decks, or Zur Decks, or Rafiq decks, or Oona decks, or Azami decks, or Azusa decks, or 5-color Hermit Druid decks. Sure, it's only my experience I'm drawing from, but it's the only experience I have. Cards and decks that I've seen dominate playgroups have consistently fallen out of favor because once they prove themselves successful, people look for a new challenge.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Why are you so convinced there's a mini game surrounding PT? Lotsa creatures get abused, Rune-Scarred Demon is one big example. It doesn't just apply to PT.
So why isn't Sol Ring a mini-game during turns 1-4, considering these turns are the most important in crafting your strategy out. Which, in turn, is arguably more pronounced than a PT situation because it happens way too early, too fast.
Well I'm "convinced" Because it's something I saw first hand. I've seen games where Player 1 casts PT and in a row Players 2-4 followed it up with a Clone effect. Where it ate removal only to be subsequently reanimated. Where the Bribery targets the Green player just to grab the PT they know is there. Where 5c decks run Urborg/Coffers simply because they run PT.
Can you say the same thing about Sol Ring? Sure, we've all seen Thada Adel make it her first target, but that's about it. Do people run Trinket Mage just for it? How many times will someone Commander a Sol Ring? Do you often think "better run Mental Misstep, gotta expect SR"?
Naturally, ymmv, but those are my experiences which I draw from.
Because, comparatively, I see much less Consecrated Sphinx anymore, or Palinchron, or Defense of the Heart, or Mind Over Matter, or Necropotence, or Armageddon, or Time Stretch, or Jhoira Decks, or Zur Decks, or Rafiq decks, or Oona decks, or Azami decks, or Azusa decks, or 5-color Hermit Druid decks. Sure, it's only my experience I'm drawing from, but it's the only experience I have. Cards and decks that I've seen dominate playgroups have consistently fallen out of favor because once they prove themselves successful, people look for a new challenge.
Sure, I can go with that. Cards that you solve or otherwise run a "correct way" can grow stale, especially in an experienced group like it sounds like you're in. I'll still contend that PT was different because there was nothing to solve, just solid ETB value and added value later on. It was also near broken from a CMC point of view. This is getting somewhat tangential though and starting to focus solely on PT. Bringing it back to Sol Ring, the similarities as I see it are that both cards provide an effect which is greater than its cmc, and both cards are/were ubiquitous. They also tended to subtly warp games unintentionally and it often is difficult to see them as the true culprit.
1: Ring
2: Buried Alive (Mik,Trisk,Abolisher)
3: Living Death
1: Ring
2: Phyrexian Unlife
3: Ad Nauseam
1: Ring
1 or 2: Rock, Petal, or Mox
2: Levavold
3: Anvil, Windfall
1: Ring
2: Mindslicer
3: Waste Not, Fleshbag
It’s not hard to think of game winning plays in the first few turns. Some of these plays even have room to fit in a tutor or a card to protect the play.
“The Banned List for Commander is designed not to balance competitive play, but to help shape in the minds of its fans the vision held by its founders and Rules Committee. That vision is to create variable, interactive, and epic multiplayer games where memories are made, to foster the social nature of the format, and to underscore that competition is not the format’s primary goal. It sets out to define the parameters of Official Commander while recognizing that local groups may wish to modify things to suit their own needs.”
I think fast mana takes way the epic feeling of multiplayer games by drastically speeding up the format.
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I have always been close on it, and now I swung back because of this attitude about it more so than anything. I think banning it would send the right message and am giving them that feedback. I know a lot of other people have experienced what I have, so its about getting that message amplified.
In regards to the game ending before someone could do something, there are numerous factors that can cause that - missing lands (poor draws), other players preventing plays, and being outramped to generically name a few.
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You are aware that you can play a multiplayer game of magic where everyone stays equally relevant until the end, right? There is no mandate that one player has to be archenemy.
This just feels like doublethink. Sol Ring is a disadvantage because it forces the other players to gang up on you to counter the advantage it provides? You're not seeing the problem with that logic?
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So to respond to your question: Do I care that a Sol Ring can do that and do I see an issue with my logic? No, not really. I'm more of a 'deal with the chicken instead of the egg' type of player. Why waste the removal on Sol Ring when the removal could deal with the problem itself?
Refer to my above response, but to me the reason that ban criteria exists is it's subjective to each player. T1 Sol Rings make people drop from games in MTGO and then in other situations people don't care - I think the issue is the player's attitudes themselves and not the actual card.
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That's not "dealing with the chicken instead of the egg." That is not a platitude that actually exists, because it is terrible advice. You do not chase the symptoms of a problem, you deal with the root cause. Do you understand why Channel and Black Lotus are banned but Fireball is not? Enablers are the problem.
I believe I was one of the early guys to term the word archenemy (not the format). That said, I still can't believe many people think fast mana isn't the problem here. It makes me feel that us anti-fast mana guys are in some kind of cult in the entire EDH section.
Fast mana bannings are always the first to go in any given format. History has backed that up, data has proven formats do better without them. And it doesn't matter if you're competitive or casual.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
See, you're doing it again. It sounds like you're referring to someone specifically. Are you intentionally vaugeposting?
Well if you choose to identify yourself as a small minority of players who know better than the RC and know for a fact that fast mana is ruining the format, then yeah you probably are treated like a cult. Just like you guys think that your polar opposite drank the EDH kool-aid.
Sure. Every other format says "we don't want games to end before turn X" and uses data to reach that goal. And fast mana is always the first to go because the primary objective is to win faster than your opponent. That is the mentality players have in those formats. EDH doesn't have that mentality, and if you want data to back it up, go look in the decklist forum and tell me how many decks run Sol Ring AND Mana Crypt AND Mana Vault and whatever other rocks you consider broken. Heck, just look at the primers which are supposed to be some of the most developed lists.
So if you want to argue that a card like Sol Ring doesn't add to the format and has the potential to ruin a game here and there, I've got your back. But you seem to be taking this to an extreme and I have to disagree with your overall stance.
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Sol Ring adds nothing to the format and ruins games independent of the mentality of the player using it. By a certain interpretation of the Rules Committees decisions, ruining games without the deliberate mentality to do so is the single banning criteria. In no other world do Prophet of Kruphix, Worldfire, and Black Lotus sit side-by-side except through the lens that they do harm even with the best intentions.
I'm with you that we can't judge this banlist through the lens of other formats, and I know your post was specifically to counter that idea, but I don't think looking at fast mana through the lens of well developed primers is nearly as important as seeing the impact with players who aren't putting that level of personal dedication into their deck-building.
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For the record, Black Lotus is more PBTE, like most of the Power 9, than the fast mana part, considering it's a one time effect. Not to say Fast mana isn't a good enough reason on its own, but the discussion really has never been made due to the PBTE part.
I don't consider you a cult, but in a 99 card deck, singleton format, the ability to consistently net fast mana comes at a distinct cost to the deckbuilder. Any noob to EDH has built a deck that contained too much ramp and that has caused them issues.
In regards to the format, yes there have been some fast mana bannings, but the scale is different compared to the other 1v1 formats where the advantage is much more hazardous. Again, a T1 SR can contribute to someone winning, but it's safe to say that it isn't the only reason someone ends up winning an EDH game. The multiplayer dynamic of the format does lessen the issue to a large extent.
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[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
But the fact that those cards don't compare apples to apples with Sol Ring is the point. Those 3 cards don't compare apples to apples with each other. I tried to pick 3 different cards with very different effects and power levels. Black Lotus is fast mana that breaks games in half, particularly competitive games. Prophet of Kruphix is a much slower card that hurts games in a grindier, value-driven deck while doing little damage at a competitive table. Worldfire isn't even a card I'm convinced anyone would seriously play outside of Jhoira of the Ghitu. The 3 cards have basically nothing in common except that a lot of people just don't want to play against them, and that's ban criteria #1 on the list of reasons to ban a card. And I'd argue it's the only criteria, cause two of the other 4 listed criteria are useless and the other 2 are redundant.
Percieved barrier to entry is actively ignored. This is explicit, cards are no longer banned for this reason, it was just for the early days of the format to keep people from thinking it was a power 9 format. On the other hand, only 8 of those 9 are banned, and Timetwister isn't particularly easier to acquire than Time Walk, so it's hard to say this criteria ever really applied or was ever really necessary.
Warps the format strategically, I think we agree, just isn't a problem. Everyone knows Zur is a menace, and I haven't seen Zur in like 5 years. Nobody is afraid of a Mayael fatty deck and there's one in almost every playgroup I've ever played with. Cards and strategies being well-known threats across playgroups scares away at least as many EDH players as it attracts. So this criteria is useless.
Produces too much mana too quickly is a legitimate concern, but "too quickly" is definitely a subjective phrase, and the opinion the phrase is subjected to is "how fast can you accelerate before your opponents get upset about not being able to keep up", which means too much mana too quickly is just a subset of creating undesirable situations.
And if produces mana too quickly is redundant, interacts badly with the format is really redundant. All the cards banned for this reason weren't printed with edh in mind, which is just a longer explanation of why they create undesirable situations. Like, you can ban Karakas for interacting badly with the format, but ultimately you do so because it creates an undesirable situation. You can ban Limited Resources for operating poorly in multiplayer, but the real problem is it makes an undesirable situation.
Sol Ring creates undesirable situations, fitting the only real ban criteria.
I disagree here, actually. And I doubt that I'm the only one. Having played with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, with Primeval Titan, and with Sylvan Primordial, it was not that the cards themselves are overly powerful or particularly unpleasant to play against, it was that they became ubiquitously game-warping. The game was all about getting those cards. And that can happen with any card. Some might even say that it happens with Sol Ring.
I would bet my entire magic collection that if any of those cards weren't banned, the problem would have solved itself, but not a single one of those escaped standard rotation before their bans. It's my belief that the primary motivation when choosing cards for the vast majority of people playing this format is what they want to play rather than what they feel is strongest, and cards definitely have a honeymoon period where they're new and exciting and copies are in everyone's trade binders, and that's long since gone for all those cards.
First, Primeval Titan was legal for an entire Standard rotation (plus a few months) before it was banned.
If I recall correctly, I was neutral on Emrakul, the Aeons Torn at the time it was legal, but it was a definite problem, and would most certainly be a problem now were it to be unbanned.
I was not actively playing while Sylvan Primordial was legal, but from what others around here have told me, it is unlikely that problem would have gone away on its own.
On a side note, I still disagree with Primeval Titan being banned. However, I admit it was far more deserving of a ban than Prophet of Kruphix, for the same reasons as Prophet.
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Ah, but you are forgetting that many players did not view Primeval Titan as a "problem". In fact, most people "solved" the problem by running more ways to capitalize on 100% of green decks running PT, be it theft, clones, reanimation, etc. So to liken it to Sol Ring, the answer to other players running Sol Ring is to run it harder? Doesn't sound like a solved problem.
And that is the problem with your assessment of warping the format. It doesn't just mean that a card is a known threat that has to be dealt with on the spot, it means that the card is so powerful and has so much of an impact on the game that EVERYONE is either running it or preparing for it during the deck-building stage, and once it is in play the game focuses on that card. Sol Ring doesn't quite fit this criteria because while it is ubiquitous, there is not much vocal evidence to suggest that players are filling their decks with answers to the card.
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Ok, but if they kept running those things just by the argument that Primeval Titan is around, they'd start having problems when it stopped being played everywhere because people got bored and wanted to play with newer, shinier toys. Prime Time is a strong card, but it's not stronger than all the broken old crap, it's not new enough to be excitingly fresh, and it has the staleness of being a long-term competitive staple in another format already. Nobody is fighting for Prime Time because people don't particularly care to play it anymore.
In that hypothetical situation, no the Sol Ring didn't win the game because I struggle to find a combination of a 4 drop and a 5 drop that would end the game or at least completely kill one person without over extending significantly and causing the remaining players to probably kill them.
I can't recall where this came up, probably the Iona thread, but people seem to disregard the multiplayer aspect of this game. I find that assuming other players would not contribute to stopping the ramped player is probably not what would occur in a casual game, in fact more often than not if someone is being beat up on exclusively they do actually help. Recent example via games: while playing my Zur Astral Slide deck, I was bouncing Gonti, Lord of Luxury and targeting only one player, a Bant CIP deck, but the other two went out of their ways several times to destroy my Astral Slide when it never effected them. Reality is in casual games people are generally nice and want to help, not just always be selfish.
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RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Why would people stop playing it? It was some of the best ramp available, and it was for that reason that it was pkayed, not because it was broken or exciting. The only reason people aren't fighting for it now is because after being forced to remove it from their decks and seeing how games are now, they can see just how much of an impact it had and they are happier now. If Sol Ring were banned we would probably see the same result to a lesser amount, but not quite since Sol Ring doesn't get played like a mini-game as soon as someone plays it.
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So why isn't Sol Ring a mini-game during turns 1-4, considering these turns are the most important in crafting your strategy out. Which, in turn, is arguably more pronounced than a PT situation because it happens way too early, too fast.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Because, comparatively, I see much less Consecrated Sphinx anymore, or Palinchron, or Defense of the Heart, or Mind Over Matter, or Necropotence, or Armageddon, or Time Stretch, or Jhoira Decks, or Zur Decks, or Rafiq decks, or Oona decks, or Azami decks, or Azusa decks, or 5-color Hermit Druid decks. Sure, it's only my experience I'm drawing from, but it's the only experience I have. Cards and decks that I've seen dominate playgroups have consistently fallen out of favor because once they prove themselves successful, people look for a new challenge.
Well I'm "convinced" Because it's something I saw first hand. I've seen games where Player 1 casts PT and in a row Players 2-4 followed it up with a Clone effect. Where it ate removal only to be subsequently reanimated. Where the Bribery targets the Green player just to grab the PT they know is there. Where 5c decks run Urborg/Coffers simply because they run PT.
Can you say the same thing about Sol Ring? Sure, we've all seen Thada Adel make it her first target, but that's about it. Do people run Trinket Mage just for it? How many times will someone Commander a Sol Ring? Do you often think "better run Mental Misstep, gotta expect SR"?
Naturally, ymmv, but those are my experiences which I draw from.
Sure, I can go with that. Cards that you solve or otherwise run a "correct way" can grow stale, especially in an experienced group like it sounds like you're in. I'll still contend that PT was different because there was nothing to solve, just solid ETB value and added value later on. It was also near broken from a CMC point of view. This is getting somewhat tangential though and starting to focus solely on PT. Bringing it back to Sol Ring, the similarities as I see it are that both cards provide an effect which is greater than its cmc, and both cards are/were ubiquitous. They also tended to subtly warp games unintentionally and it often is difficult to see them as the true culprit.
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2: Buried Alive (Mik,Trisk,Abolisher)
3: Living Death
1: Ring
2: Phyrexian Unlife
3: Ad Nauseam
1: Ring
1 or 2: Rock, Petal, or Mox
2: Levavold
3: Anvil, Windfall
1: Ring
2: Mindslicer
3: Waste Not, Fleshbag
It’s not hard to think of game winning plays in the first few turns. Some of these plays even have room to fit in a tutor or a card to protect the play.
“The Banned List for Commander is designed not to balance competitive play, but to help shape in the minds of its fans the vision held by its founders and Rules Committee. That vision is to create variable, interactive, and epic multiplayer games where memories are made, to foster the social nature of the format, and to underscore that competition is not the format’s primary goal. It sets out to define the parameters of Official Commander while recognizing that local groups may wish to modify things to suit their own needs.”
I think fast mana takes way the epic feeling of multiplayer games by drastically speeding up the format.