This isn't a Griselbrand thread, but drawing 1 card for 1 life in a 40 life format lets a player dig for any answer they want. That this is on a 7/7 lifelinker that you could have in your command zone makes it even more concerning. Sol Ring isn't near that. I can easily see how he would ruin any game casual or competitive because of the life totals in EDH. Tooth and Nail isn't banned and I think it is totally fair in casual EDH and have never wanted it banned. Gifts is similar to Tooth and Nail, but I think it is a little stronger. It could probably come off and I wouldn't complain a whole lot. I do think of it like a Doomsday for the graveyard and hand, which is a bit more busted than TaN. Again, wouldn't mind if it came off. I think as goes Gifts, so goes Protean Hulk, so I wouldn't count on either, fwiw.
I don't know that anything is unplayable in EDH. Even Phage, the Untouchable is playable thanks to Command Beacon and Torpor Orb. EDH games are supposed to be sort of long and a little durdly. You can play Worldspine Wurm or Progenitus and not actually have to worry too much about casting them at some point in a game. However, I believe the RC wants more time with players having their toys, so things like Sol Ring adjust that window by a turn or two, which increases enjoyment. By making the mid-game come sooner and, naturally, the late-game as well, I think Sol Ring allows for more of the kinds of games the RC wants. Now, if Sol Ring is problematic in your group, maybe consider banning it and seeing what happens. I know players have enjoyed that before. However, I love playing with Sol Ring and have never once had an issue with it in hundreds of games of EDH and I don't think it is near enough a problem in any regard that it should be banned for everyone, including those that enjoy it as an icon of the format.
Buffsam, you seem to want a competitively/power-level based ban list and I don't think you're ever going to get that in EDH. Would Sol Ring being banned suddenly make the decks you're playing that much less fast? It's possible that the games you are playing where the game is more powerful than what the RC looks at as their model playgroup. I've suffered from this too with the PoK ban. My playgroup was fine with it, but more casual groups had real problems handling it, apparently. So, it was banned. The list won't always line up with your personal ideologies for the format and if you think Sol Ring's ban is part of a step towards the ban list ever being "balanced," you'll be disappointed.
You also addressed a phenomenon in DC that exemplifies why Sol Ring is good for EDH. Fast mana is banned in DC and now all of the decks must be lower to the ground, designed to be faster, filled with more redundancy, lower curves, and more consistency in order to compensate for the lack of fast mana in the format. I think having to build an EDH deck like that would be a huge negative. This is the format of playing Elder Dragons. That vision becomes severely harmed by anything resembling the DC ban list.
Nice try, but that's not what I meant.
I play the exact same dec, just minus Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. That's it. I still play Worldspine Wurms and It that Betrays, just on a more reasonable curve/turn. Not turn 5. That's how games in normal EDH go anyways, except for the "lucky" ones opening with Sol Ring/Mana crypt.
Please, continue telling me what I mean, I'm sure you know better than I.
Whatever it was you intended, you said that you would rather play a game with the DC ban list, which implies a desire for competitive balance. I commend you for removing the fast mana from your decks. I am not willing to make that sacrifice because it's part of why I play the format. If you're trying to say you only play by removing those rocks, that is a long way from saying you will only play with the DC ban list. I made no effort to twist your words, I just responded to what you said.
However, you did raise a valid comparison between DC lists and typical EDH lists. DC lists are low to the ground on curve, run redundant mana rocks, ramp spells, mana dorks, cheap removal and interaction, and any tutor they can for redundancy.
I don't want EDH to have to be like that. Obviously, you have the option to make your deck like a DC deck, that is to say, a competitive list with the sole objective of winning (not saying that this is your list; I'm speaking in platitudes). Most players don't want to do that, though, and need cards like Sol Ring to help their decks along.
11 mana spells are not coming down on Turn 5 without a lot of help. Sol Ring is not doing that by itself and it's also possible without Sol Ring, as I mentioned previously, I cast a 15 mana Emrakul on T6. No fast mana needed, just ramp spells and lands.
I think this should be looked at in a vacuum. It lets you play an 8 drop on Turn 6. That's strong, but I don't think that it is a cancer on the format because of it. At 6 mana, your opponents have access to just about any removal in the game other than the most expensive of board wipes.
Whatever it was you intended, you said that you would rather play a game with the DC ban list. I commend you for removing the fast mana from your decks. I am not willing to make that sacrifice because it's part of why I play the format.
DC lists are low to the ground on curve, run redundant mana rocks, ramp spells, mana dorks, cheap removal and interaction, and any tutor they can for redundancy.
I don't want EDH to have to be like that. Obviously, you have the option to make your deck like a DC deck, that is to say, a competitive list with the sole objective of winning (not saying that this is your list; I'm speaking in platitudes). Most players don't want to do that, though, and need cards like Sol Ring to help their decks along.
11 mana spells are not coming down on Turn 5 without a lot of help. Sol Ring is not doing that by itself and it's also possible without Sol Ring, as I mentioned previously, I cast a 15 mana Emrakul on T6. No fast mana needed, just ramp spells and lands.
I think this should be looked at in a vacuum. It lets you play an 8 drop on Turn 6. That's strong, but I don't think that it is a cancer on the format because of it. At 6 mana, your opponents have access to just about any removal in the game other than the most expensive of board wipes.
Listen, I'm not going to sit here and teach a reading comp. class, however, if that's what you got out of my post, you may need to brush up a bit.
How about a 4/5 drop on turn 2. A 5/6 drop on 3, a 6/7- drop turn 4.
That's the vacuum.
What's wrong with the usual ramp curve? A 3 drop turn 2 is the norm, barring non-broken fast mana that has a drawback like the legal moxes. You trade the ramp for CA.
I have no problem with Sol Ring, except when it is played early. I've said it quite a bit.
However, the only way to fix that is to remove it.
It's a broken Mana-rock, and is acknowledged as such in every other format. Do I want Commander like other formats? No, but I also don't like the EDH where Sol Ring exists.
I'm not going to beat this anymore to death, but I am just hanging on that "Vacuum" comment.
It's a 6 drop on turn 4. It's not 6/7, it's 6. Don't exaggerate, please. If you want to represent it in a vacuum, do so. Sol Ring adds 2 colorless mana each turn. If you drop your land each turn and nothing else, it has accelerated you 2 mana more than you'd otherwise have. This means 4 on 2, 5 on 3, 6 on 4, etc.
A 6 drop on turn 4 into a table of 3+ other players who could very well be doing the same thing is perfectly fine. I think that sort of acceleration into the mid to late game is absolutely intended.
It's a 6 drop on turn 4. It's not 6/7, it's 6. Don't exaggerate, please. If you want to represent it in a vacuum, do so. Sol Ring adds 2 colorless mana each turn. If you drop your land each turn and nothing else, it has accelerated you 2 mana more than you'd otherwise have. This means 4 on 2, 5 on 3, 6 on 4, etc.
A 6 drop on turn 4 into a table of 3+ other players who could very well be doing the same thing is perfectly fine. I think that sort of acceleration into the mid to late game is absolutely intended.
6-drops on 4.
All of the Titans.
Wurmcoil Engine. Caged sun. Teferi Temporal Archmage. I can keep going.
If your idea of "casual" is those cards on turn 4, I think you are the one with the competetive/cutthroat vision.
It's also rarely, if ever, more than 1 player with the early accelerant. I've seen it a few times, but a one-of at the table more often than not. Not an exaggeration?
And one other player landing a signet? A mana dork? A rampant growth? A cultivate? Those players get a 5 drop on turn 4. How is that Teferi going to take over the whole table? Or the Wurmcoil? Sure, those cards can generate some advantage, but a 6 drop on turn 4 in a multiplayer game is pretty tame. What do those decks do about my Bitterblossom and Grave Pact on the board on Turn 4 when my general is a Turn 5 sac outlet? Do they just sacrifice that 6 drop they just ramped so hard into? You don't need to accelerate to be even, you just need to not be saying "draw go" without even having interaction. Those players ramping on early turns are sacrificing all their early tempo. You don't need to ramp to be able to compete.
And one other player landing a signet? A mana dork? A rampant growth? A cultivate? Those players get a 5 drop on turn 4. How is that Teferi going to take over the whole table? Or the Wurmcoil? Sure, those cards can generate some advantage, but a 6 drop on turn 4 in a multiplayer game is pretty tame. What do those decks do about my Bitterblossom and Grave Pact on the board on Turn 4 when my general is a Turn 5 sac outlet? Do they just sacrifice that 6 drop they just ramped so hard into? You don't need to accelerate to be even, you just need to not be saying "draw go" without even having interaction. Those players ramping on early turns are sacrificing all their early tempo. You don't need to ramp to be able to compete.
Wait. So I can't include other cards in my example, but your argument is that "the other players are ramping too". I'm pretty sure that the same decks that have sol ring, also have Rampant Growth and Signets. But, that doesn't conform to your argument, so we'll just ignore that. I mean, you said it yourself.
You're representing the rest of the table like they are sitting there doing nothing while the Sol Ring player hits 6+ mana at the speed of light with a hand full of haymaker after haymaker. Everyone runs some form of ramp in this format. It is necessary, and not just to "compete with Sol Ring". EDH is a format that fosters high curves and big creatures/expensive spells. It makes sense to include mana rocks and other ramp mechanisms in order to cast those creatures and spells.
You stated that, "It's also rarely, if ever, more than 1 player with the early accelerant." It might be just one player with the early Sol Ring, but the rest of the table is also doing things and can play plenty of mana rocks, dorks, or ramp spells of their own. Even the T4 ramp in the format like Solemn Simulacrum or Skyshroud Claim/Explosive Vegetation provides a 6 drop on 5 or a 7 drop on 5 respectively. You'd be more or less caught up with the Sol Ring player and your ramp would be more stable as lands are destroyed by far fewer sweepers or removal spells than artifacts in EDH.
Everyone is playing the game and doing things on their turn. That T1 Sol Ring is rarely enough to push someone so ahead that they just win or snowball out of control. Again, that T4 Wurmcoil Engine really is not that broken against 3 opponents.
It's a 6 drop on turn 4. It's not 6/7, it's 6. Don't exaggerate, please. If you want to represent it in a vacuum, do so. Sol Ring adds 2 colorless mana each turn. If you drop your land each turn and nothing else, it has accelerated you 2 mana more than you'd otherwise have. This means 4 on 2, 5 on 3, 6 on 4, etc.
You're representing the rest of the table like they are sitting there doing nothing while the Sol Ring player hits 6+ mana at the speed of light with a hand full of haymaker after haymaker. Everyone runs some form of ramp in this format. It is necessary, and not just to "compete with Sol Ring".
And you make it sound like a player goes T1 Sol Ring then plays land-go for a bunch of turns, which is frankly kind of ridiculous, especially when you also admit "it is necessary" for everyone to run ramp in their deck. You're trying to reduce the impact of a T1 Sol Ring by simplifying the outcome to 'it's just a single 6 drop on T4, that's not so bad' but that's not what actually happens. What actually happens is the Sol Ring player gets to double-Time Walk for 1, which means they get to go T2>4 drop, T3>5 drop, T4>6 drop, all of which probably require answers. And that's ignoring a fact you've already stated -- "Everyone runs some form of ramp in this format." -- so there is a high likelihood that some of those 4 or 5 drops are additional pieces of ramp (for exmaple, Explosive Vegetation and Gilded Lotus). So instead of a T4>6 drop, it's actually closer to a T4>8 drop or T4>9 drop.
I find it extremely disingenuous to imply that an average games goes T1> Sol Ring T2-T4> Land-go and nothing else.
Can we not call it a double Time Walk? Because that's just not true. It gives you 2 extra mana each turn you untap for an initial cost of 1. That's all. No one is debating that it is very powerful, but a double Time Walk it is not. You're better than that. And don't accuse me of being disingenuous of anything and then turn around and make a statement like that.
Obviously the T1 Sol Ring player has more ability to play more expensive spells early on, but the worst cast scenario is really going to be an early haymaker like a 6 drop on T4. I addressed the 4 on 2, 5 on 3, etc. already, so it's not like I'm pretending Sol Ring has suddenly become a Dark Ritual to get to 6 mana only on T4. I'm just saying that other players are capable of making plays too. The representation is that Sol Ring on T1 leaves everyone in the dust and that is the exception, not the rule. They're probably not going to be perfectly on curve, other players are going to have answers to some of their plays, haymakers that they'd have access to on T2-T4 (i.e. 4-6 mana) are not going to be ending the game against 3+ opponents without a lot of additional help. For the advantage Sol Ring provides to actually lead into anything in a normal EDH game, you would have to be sticking threats constantly, turn after turn, with each getting more dangerous. If you just start playing a 6 drop every turn from T5 onward, that 2 mana Sol Ring gave you isn't actually enabling all that much beyond that point. It loses effectiveness. This is what is referred to as a "power spike", which is commonly found in MOBAs where your characters have certain, temporary, increases in effectiveness from reaching a certain level for an ability or buying a particular item to become stronger than their opposition until they catch up with an item of their own. From T2-T5, that Sol Ring player is at a decent advantage, assuming no ramp by their opponents (unlikely). After T6, that Sol Ring has reduced effectiveness because now you have more than enough mana to do more than 1 thing a turn with a moderate CMC curve between 3.0-3.5. It's ineffectiveness as the game transitions into the full late-game is a major balancing point for its power. We're talking purely about the T1 Sol Ring in this thread, something that happens for any one player in the game less than 28% of the time (because sometimes 2 players will hit their 7% in the same game). For an individual, only 7% of the time (rough estimates, mulligans, keep-able hands, etc. obviously change this somewhat). In that 7%, that player needs a lot of things to go right for their own hand and for the other 3 players to have a lot of things go wrong (i.e. no answers, early tempo to keep up, etc.). So, less than 1/4th of games should have at least one T1 Sol Ring, assuming all decks run it. In those under-1/4th of games, so many things have to go right for that person to just run away with snowballed advantage. The likelihood is just so very low that this happens.
You're advocating a ban for an occurrence in a ridiculously small percentage of games. So low, in fact, that I have not experienced it happen in my games, to my recollection (anecdotal, I know).
Is a bad game happening because of Sol Ring maybe 1% of the time worth a ban? I seriously doubt it.
Can we not call it a double Time Walk? Because that's just not true. It gives you 2 extra mana each turn you untap for an initial cost of 1. That's all. No one is debating that it is very powerful, but a double Time Walk it is not. You're better than that. And don't accuse me of being disingenuous of anything and then turn around and make a statement like that.
An exaggeration, maybe, but it's not that far off from the truth. If you got to take three turns in a row at the start of the game, you'd often end up in a similar position to playing Sol Ring on T1.
Is a bad game happening because of Sol Ring maybe 1% of the time worth a ban? I seriously doubt it.
Clearly we're both just exaggerating at this point. A T1 Sol Ring happens roughly 25% of the time. That we agree on. Clearly you don't think that's a problem, which is just insane to me. I'm just going to quote from the article linked in the first post of this thread:
"It doesn't belong in every deck... my deck doesn't want it."
In an argument against the ubiquity of Sol Ring, three-plus color decks sometimes claim that their mana restrictions are so stringent that Sol Ring does not belong. In order to see if that's really true, I went over to the deck database and looked through the lists of three and five color generals which did not include Sol Ring.
Since I'm concerned with the benefit of untapping with Sol Ring on the second turn, it was easy to come up with a metric. I counted the number of cards that can be cast off of two lands and a Sol Ring but not two lands alone. That means three and four cost spells with no more than two colored mana in the costs. I also limited my count to the spells that you would actually want to cast on your second turn; Harmonize is good but Day of Judgment is not.
In order to put your Sol Ring to use right away 50% of the time, you need nine such cards. For a two-thirds chance you need fourteen. Seventeen cards gives you a 75% chance of getting an immediate benefit from Sol Ring.
(Keep in mind that this ignores the possibility of casting multiple small spells between your first and second turns. I'm also ignoring the benefit of Sol Ring to casting your commander. If your commander's casting cost includes at least two colorless mana - such as Uril, the Miststalker, Riku of Two Reflections, or any shard or wedge Dragon - and your mana base is pretty stable, Sol Ring single-handedly lets you cast your commander two turns early.)
Looking at a few dozen decklists without Sol Ring, the average number of cards that Sol Ring lets you cast on turn two is 17. Furthermore, the standard deviation is 4, meaning that almost no deck has fewer than thirteen options if it untaps after casting Sol Ring turn one.
That is, most decks can abuse Sol Ring right away pretty consistently. Even the ones that claim they can't.
I think you're severely low-balling how easy it is for an average deck to get an insane advantage from a T1 Sol Ring, even when you're not specifically trying to.
It's a statistical impossibility to predict all the interactions and subsequent counterplays following a T1 Sol Ring to determine any sort of accurate picture of how often a T1 Sol Ring ruins a game. However, from my anecdotal experience, I can't recall one. I'm sure it has happened and I didn't notice, but it wasn't enough of a problem that I cared to hold any sort of negative feelings about it.
I might be low balling (impossible to tell). I admit that I did pick a low number because of my personal experiences. I don't think that those games where T1 Sol Ring actually ruins it (read: runs away with the game) is much more than 1% to 2%.
Yes, Sol Ring is powerful and a T1 Sol Ring is one of the best plays you can make in the format (though there does have to be a "best", that's just how Magic works). I don't think the ubiquity is a problem because I like playing with power. I like others playing with power. Even if it resulted in someone running away with the game, however rarely that may occur, it is still pretty cool to watch.
However, I believe the RC wants more time with players having their toys, so things like Sol Ring adjust that window by a turn or two, which increases enjoyment. By making the mid-game come sooner and, naturally, the late-game as well, I think Sol Ring allows for more of the kinds of games the RC wants.
In terms of turns, fast mana might get you to midgame earlier, but it terms of time, not so much. It only takes a couple minutes out of a game that could be measured in hours to get everyone to turn 4... assuming there isn't fast mana or 6 players with fetch lands every turn. And if Sol Ring gets you to the midgame faster, it doesn't do that for everyone else. Do you really think that one person taking nice, long midgame turns while everyone else is still at "play a two drop and pass" qualifies as people having more time with their toys? I'd say it's the opposite, since everyone else has to watch the Sol Ring player doing what they want to while they're still turns away from playing with theirs.
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Everyone is playing the game and doing things on their turn. That T1 Sol Ring is rarely enough to push someone so ahead that they just win or snowball out of control. Again, that T4 Wurmcoil Engine really is not that broken against 3 opponents.
This I have to really disagree with. It often does push someone over the top because its not one threat. Sure a single Wormcoil might not do it, but a T3 Sigarda, Host of Herons following it up is quite the hill, even for multiple opponents.
Now you can nit-pick about whats 'commonly' happening, but it happened enough in my fairly casual group that we house banned Sol Ring. And that was the only card ever really discussed. Now that group is gone, but the memories are not. Enough people have them, and I suspect you have seen games like that too, to be a real consideration.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Everyone is playing the game and doing things on their turn. That T1 Sol Ring is rarely enough to push someone so ahead that they just win or snowball out of control. Again, that T4 Wurmcoil Engine really is not that broken against 3 opponents.
This I have to really disagree with. It often does push someone over the top because its not one threat. Sure a single Wormcoil might not do it, but a T3 Sigarda, Host of Herons following it up is quite the hill, even for multiple opponents.
Now you can nit-pick about whats 'commonly' happening, but it happened enough in my fairly casual group that we house banned Sol Ring. And that was the only card ever really discussed. Now that group is gone, but the memories are not. Enough people have them, and I suspect you have seen games like that too, to be a real consideration.
while this somehow has managed to come up frequently for you, this has almost never come up for me. the ONLY occurence i can recall was not really the sol ring, it was just a nut hand in general, and won through concession on turn 7ish. i dont particularly consider a turn 7 win through concession to be too fast, maybe you do, but i dont. this didnt even "ruin" the game, it was super cool for all of us to see such an explosive start and we used it as a puzzle to try to find an out all game. basically, the ring accelerated it by 2 turns, but the hand would have won regardless. one common thing i see in here is people listing hands that probably would have won without the sol ring. if your group couldnt handle a t3 sigarda or t4 wurmcoil, it wasnt handling it on turn 5 or 6 either. sol ring "wins" happen so infrequently in either of my groups no one even acts differently towards a t1 sol ring player. another important note here, i am one of about 3 in either of my groups (one is about 12 people, the other about 20, rotating depending on who is present) who actively accesses pages such as this, so while this is not outright proof, it points towards sol ring "haters" being a vocal minority, esp considering those who are invested enough in the format to spend their free time online are most of the time a step or two above what the RC is making bans for
our group is by no means competitive either, there are no infinites, no mld, no stax, and most have rather budget decks, but everyone has built there deck in such a way that it can reliably interact with anything someone is trying to do.
another important note here, i am one of about 3 in either of my groups (one is about 12 people, the other about 20, rotating depending on who is present) who actively accesses pages such as this, so while this is not outright proof, it points towards sol ring "haters" being a vocal minority, esp considering those who are invested enough in the format to spend their free time online are most of the time a step or two above what the RC is making bans for.
And I know middle schoolers a year into magic who complain about their one friend with the Mana Crypt and Sol Ring. They're not exactly heavy netdeckers there either.
There's no sense bringing up the experience of one specific group. That's not an important note here. You said it yourself describing the game that Sol Ring ran away with, that the rest of the table had to try and hunt for any solitary way to survive. You make it sound like a fun puzzle, but the game is a lot more of a fun puzzle when you actually have choices on how to act rather than having to walk the one path to survival. Obviously, that's the second mast extreme lack of choice next to the game ending, but one person out of control early for whatever reason robs the other players of some of their agency. Some people like that. I know this is the format for battlecruiser magic. I like games like that with big boards and swingy swings, but you still make lots of decisions along the way. Sol Ring encourages something more like battle cruise control. You play Sol Ring in every deck cause its the best card in the format, then you play it as soon as you can because there's no reason not to, then you play out your hand cause you have all the mana you need, then your opponents answer your stuff because they lose otherwise... what's the difference between a 2 turn game and a 20 turn game if nobody ever stops and ponders what they really want to play? Why does it matter if everyone's deck can interact with everything if it's not what you actually want to do? Sol Ring deletes the early game when you're free to make decisions and not just react blindly, and I think that's a disservice to everyone at the table regardless of who wins or how many turns it takes.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
another important note here, i am one of about 3 in either of my groups (one is about 12 people, the other about 20, rotating depending on who is present) who actively accesses pages such as this, so while this is not outright proof, it points towards sol ring "haters" being a vocal minority, esp considering those who are invested enough in the format to spend their free time online are most of the time a step or two above what the RC is making bans for.
And I know middle schoolers a year into magic who complain about their one friend with the Mana Crypt and Sol Ring. They're not exactly heavy netdeckers there either.
There's no sense bringing up the experience of one specific group. That's not an important note here. You said it yourself describing the game that Sol Ring ran away with, that the rest of the table had to try and hunt for any solitary way to survive. You make it sound like a fun puzzle, but the game is a lot more of a fun puzzle when you actually have choices on how to act rather than having to walk the one path to survival. Obviously, that's the second mast extreme lack of choice next to the game ending, but one person out of control early for whatever reason robs the other players of some of their agency. Some people like that. I know this is the format for battlecruiser magic. I like games like that with big boards and swingy swings, but you still make lots of decisions along the way. Sol Ring encourages something more like battle cruise control. You play Sol Ring in every deck cause its the best card in the format, then you play it as soon as you can because there's no reason not to, then you play out your hand cause you have all the mana you need, then your opponents answer your stuff because they lose otherwise... what's the difference between a 2 turn game and a 20 turn game if nobody ever stops and ponders what they really want to play? Why does it matter if everyone's deck can interact with everything if it's not what you actually want to do? Sol Ring deletes the early game when you're free to make decisions and not just react blindly, and I think that's a disservice to everyone at the table regardless of who wins or how many turns it takes.
This is not only distorting my statement but also plain hyperbole. My statement was that out of all the games I've played, t1 sol ring has only led to a crazy start once. I've had probably 100 turn 1 sol rings. Going crazy in 1% of games it lands on t1 in my own experience is nowhere near ban worthy. In addition, you say i had no decisions to make that game, which is absurdly false, that game felt no less interactive than any other game. Hell, ive had more games ruined by grave pact and vorinclex than sol ring could ever try to muster
This is not only distorting my statement but also plain hyperbole. My statement was that out of all the games I've played, t1 sol ring has only led to a crazy start once. I've had probably 100 turn 1 sol rings. Going crazy in 1% of games it lands on t1 in my own experience is nowhere near ban worthy. In addition, you say i had no decisions to make that game, which is absurdly false, that game felt no less interactive than any other game. Hell, ive had more games ruined by grave pact and vorinclex than sol ring could ever try to muster
I know the one game was just one game and an extreme example. I actively acknowledged that in my response to you. Then I gave a broad description of the damage I think Sol Ring does because I don't think giving an anecdote of my own experience is a worthwhile dispute to your anecdote of your own experience. I made the effort to respond because the one example of you having to tiptoe the line of survival was a good jumpoff point that Sol Ring works to limit play options.
Its a more subtle effect than "Vorinclex is super lame," but that's what makes it so insidious. If people don't want to play with or against a card, it makes a ban that much less necessary. I don't think I've seen a Vorinclex played against me more than a half dozen times ever, so I don't perceive a problem there worth banning (and I don't expect my experience to change your opinion).
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I don't think he was asking for a Vorinclex ban either. The insidious nature you're referring to showing itself 1% of the time when you land the T1 Sol Ring sounds more like the nuts and less like the card itself. This is multiplayer....
I don't think he was asking for a Vorinclex ban either. The insidious nature you're referring to showing itself 1% of the time when you land the T1 Sol Ring sounds more like the nuts and less like the card itself. This is multiplayer....
And I know that's an extreme example, but you don't need that extreme a situation to have a detrimental effect. If 1% of the games with Sol Ring are taken over in a way that people can't even keep up, then there's also the category of games where people manage to answer it by making the reactionary plays they're forced into on the first turn. Or the second or third. Sol Ring and signet into something like a turn 3 Frost Titan is certainly not insurmountable, but with 2 or 3 lands out and one tapped down, it's going to become the entire game to you. It's the same problem as Primeval Titan or Prophet of Kruphix where their presence takes over the game, except instead of a couple specific cards, it's basically any reasonably high end threat landing in the first 3 turns that centralizes the game. It doesn't have to win the game to make things a whole lot less interesting.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
And I know that's an extreme example, but you don't need that extreme a situation to have a detrimental effect. If 1% of the games with Sol Ring are taken over in a way that people can't even keep up, then there's also the category of games where people manage to answer it by making the reactionary plays they're forced into on the first turn. Or the second or third. Sol Ring and signet into something like a turn 3 Frost Titan is certainly not insurmountable, but with 2 or 3 lands out and one tapped down, it's going to become the entire game to you. It's the same problem as Primeval Titan or Prophet of Kruphix where their presence takes over the game, except instead of a couple specific cards, it's basically any reasonably high end threat landing in the first 3 turns that centralizes the game. It doesn't have to win the game to make things a whole lot less interesting.
I don't think that is an apt comparison. Prime Time and Prophet had an impact on the game at every single stage, warped deck building, and turned the game into a mini game for the entire table when it was out. Sol Ring has an undoubted effect when it's played turn 1, but that effect drops the more turns that pass.
I don't think that is an apt comparison. Prime Time and Prophet had an impact on the game at every single stage, warped deck building, and turned the game into a mini game for the entire table when it was out. Sol Ring has an undoubted effect when it's played turn 1, but that effect drops the more turns that pass.
I don't think you're considering how much of an impact Sol Ring has on this format when you say that. For example, if you go to the statistical breakdown thread and look at the CMC of the most popular ramp cards, ramp that costs 0 or 1 mana is very popular and 50% green, 2 mana ramp is slightly less popular and 20% green (meaning 80% of the popular 2 mana cost ramp spells can be played off of turn 1 Sol Ring), and then 3 mana ramp is the most popular and it's mostly green. So what's the problem with green 2-drop ramp? You can't play it on turn 1, and on turn 2 it's losing you tempo cause you aren't spending all your Sol Ring mana. Why play Rampant Growth when Solemn Simulacrum comes down the same turn? Sol Ring absolutely warps deckbuilding. The turn 1 Sol Ring into turn 2 second ramp spell into turn 3 6 or 7 drop threat (which is the mana cost where nearly all the most popular threats reside) is not accidentally built into like half the EDH decks in existance. The effect of a card is different if you can play it off of early Sol Ring mana, and people are going are going to remember the times they hit that best case scenario when deciding what to keep in their decks, and that skews the whole format. Once again, it's not as blatant as people actively choosing to play more clones because their friend plays Primeval Titan, but I'm pretty confident that a ban on Sol Ring, after allowing time for people to adjust to it, would have a more substantial impact on the other card choices people make than the ban on Prime Time or Prophet did.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I don't think you're considering how much of an impact Sol Ring has on this format when you say that. For example, if you go to the statistical breakdown thread and look at the CMC of the most popular ramp cards, ramp that costs 0 or 1 mana is very popular and 50% green, 2 mana ramp is slightly less popular and 20% green (meaning 80% of the popular 2 mana cost ramp spells can be played off of turn 1 Sol Ring), and then 3 mana ramp is the most popular and it's mostly green. So what's the problem with green 2-drop ramp? You can't play it on turn 1, and on turn 2 it's losing you tempo cause you aren't spending all your Sol Ring mana. Why play Rampant Growth when Solemn Simulacrum comes down the same turn? Sol Ring absolutely warps deckbuilding. The turn 1 Sol Ring into turn 2 second ramp spell into turn 3 6 or 7 drop threat (which is the mana cost where nearly all the most popular threats reside) is not accidentally built into like half the EDH decks in existance. The effect of a card is different if you can play it off of early Sol Ring mana, and people are going are going to remember the times they hit that best case scenario when deciding what to keep in their decks, and that skews the whole format. Once again, it's not as blatant as people actively choosing to play more clones because their friend plays Primeval Titan, but I'm pretty confident that a ban on Sol Ring, after allowing time for people to adjust to it, would have a more substantial impact on the other card choices people make than the ban on Prime Time or Prophet did.
Except that isn't what makes it format warping. Are opponents altering their deckbuilding because of the stone possibility of facing an opposing Sol Ring? Do players play a subgame of Clone/steal/reanimated the Sol Ring every time it comes into play?
Again, no one is arguing that a turn one Sol Ring has the potential to be very powerful. We are just questioning how much that impact remains ares turns progress. I also question how much the deck building process is a restored because you run Sol ring. I know I base my inclusion of it on the mana requirements of the rest of the deck, but I don't think I've ever thought to myself "I'm running Sol Ring so I better run X, Y, and Z as well".
Again, no one is arguing that a turn one Sol Ring has the potential to be very powerful. We are just questioning how much that impact remains ares turns progress. I also question how much the deck building process is a restored because you run Sol ring. I know I base my inclusion of it on the mana requirements of the rest of the deck, but I don't think I've ever thought to myself "I'm running Sol Ring so I better run X, Y, and Z as well".
And that's what I mean when I say that the effect is subtle or insidious. You don't think about it, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Example, you have 11 EDH decks in your signiture:
Decks without Sol Ring: 6
2 drop artifacts in those decks: 8
2 drop artifacts per deck without Sol Ring: 1.33
Decks with Sol Ring: 5
2 drop artifacts in those decks: 25
2 drop artifacts per deck with Sol Ring: 5
I don't doubt you at all when you're talking about your own thought processes. I'm sure you're not actively thinking about including those cards because of Sol Ring, but I'd also hazard a guess you aren't thinking "look at all these two drops, I'm gonna need a Sol Ring to meet those mana requirements." I won't try and put words in your mouth and guess the exact cause and effect chain here, but whatever the mechanism is, consciously or subconsciously, your decks that include Sol Ring include almost 4 times as many cards you can play with the turn 1 Sol Ring mana. That is a noticeable difference.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
And that's what I mean when I say that the effect is subtle or insidious. You don't think about it, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Example, you have 11 EDH decks in your signiture:
Decks without Sol Ring: 6
2 drop artifacts in those decks: 8
2 drop artifacts per deck without Sol Ring: 1.33
Decks with Sol Ring: 5
2 drop artifacts in those decks: 25
2 drop artifacts per deck with Sol Ring: 5
I don't doubt you at all when you're talking about your own thought processes. I'm sure you're not actively thinking about including those cards because of Sol Ring, but I'd also hazard a guess you aren't thinking "look at all these two drops, I'm gonna need a Sol Ring to meet those mana requirements." I won't try and put words in your mouth and guess the exact cause and effect chain here, but whatever the mechanism is, consciously or subconsciously, your decks that include Sol Ring include almost 4 times as many cards you can play with the turn 1 Sol Ring mana. That is a noticeable difference.
I don't know what I think about subconsciously (except for waffles and squirrels like any normal person), but the most I ever consciously think about involving Sol Ring is that it takes up a land slot. Beyond that, I worry about my overall curve. I guess the reason I can't see like you're seeing is that Sol Ring already goes into almost every deck that isn't being overtaxed with colored mana requirements, so I don't see the influence it creates. You include it like you would include Command Tower. Besides, basically any spell I want to get off a turn sooner like Kodama's Reach, Sad robot, signers, etc, are all cards I alli ready want to play, so again I don't feel like I'm driven to play them more because of Sol ring.
Nice try, but that's not what I meant.
I play the exact same dec, just minus Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. That's it. I still play Worldspine Wurms and It that Betrays, just on a more reasonable curve/turn. Not turn 5. That's how games in normal EDH go anyways, except for the "lucky" ones opening with Sol Ring/Mana crypt.
Please, continue telling me what I mean, I'm sure you know better than I.
However, you did raise a valid comparison between DC lists and typical EDH lists. DC lists are low to the ground on curve, run redundant mana rocks, ramp spells, mana dorks, cheap removal and interaction, and any tutor they can for redundancy.
I don't want EDH to have to be like that. Obviously, you have the option to make your deck like a DC deck, that is to say, a competitive list with the sole objective of winning (not saying that this is your list; I'm speaking in platitudes). Most players don't want to do that, though, and need cards like Sol Ring to help their decks along.
11 mana spells are not coming down on Turn 5 without a lot of help. Sol Ring is not doing that by itself and it's also possible without Sol Ring, as I mentioned previously, I cast a 15 mana Emrakul on T6. No fast mana needed, just ramp spells and lands.
I think this should be looked at in a vacuum. It lets you play an 8 drop on Turn 6. That's strong, but I don't think that it is a cancer on the format because of it. At 6 mana, your opponents have access to just about any removal in the game other than the most expensive of board wipes.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Listen, I'm not going to sit here and teach a reading comp. class, however, if that's what you got out of my post, you may need to brush up a bit.
How about a 4/5 drop on turn 2. A 5/6 drop on 3, a 6/7- drop turn 4.
That's the vacuum.
What's wrong with the usual ramp curve? A 3 drop turn 2 is the norm, barring non-broken fast mana that has a drawback like the legal moxes. You trade the ramp for CA.
I have no problem with Sol Ring, except when it is played early. I've said it quite a bit.
However, the only way to fix that is to remove it.
It's a broken Mana-rock, and is acknowledged as such in every other format. Do I want Commander like other formats? No, but I also don't like the EDH where Sol Ring exists.
I'm not going to beat this anymore to death, but I am just hanging on that "Vacuum" comment.
In a "Vacuum", Sol Ring is a 1-mana Skyshorud Claim. A 1-Mana repeatable Rite of Flame.
A 6 drop on turn 4 into a table of 3+ other players who could very well be doing the same thing is perfectly fine. I think that sort of acceleration into the mid to late game is absolutely intended.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
6-drops on 4.
All of the Titans.
Wurmcoil Engine. Caged sun. Teferi Temporal Archmage. I can keep going.
If your idea of "casual" is those cards on turn 4, I think you are the one with the competetive/cutthroat vision.
It's also rarely, if ever, more than 1 player with the early accelerant. I've seen it a few times, but a one-of at the table more often than not. Not an exaggeration?
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Wait. So I can't include other cards in my example, but your argument is that "the other players are ramping too". I'm pretty sure that the same decks that have sol ring, also have Rampant Growth and Signets. But, that doesn't conform to your argument, so we'll just ignore that. I mean, you said it yourself.
You stated that, "It's also rarely, if ever, more than 1 player with the early accelerant." It might be just one player with the early Sol Ring, but the rest of the table is also doing things and can play plenty of mana rocks, dorks, or ramp spells of their own. Even the T4 ramp in the format like Solemn Simulacrum or Skyshroud Claim/Explosive Vegetation provides a 6 drop on 5 or a 7 drop on 5 respectively. You'd be more or less caught up with the Sol Ring player and your ramp would be more stable as lands are destroyed by far fewer sweepers or removal spells than artifacts in EDH.
Everyone is playing the game and doing things on their turn. That T1 Sol Ring is rarely enough to push someone so ahead that they just win or snowball out of control. Again, that T4 Wurmcoil Engine really is not that broken against 3 opponents.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
I find it extremely disingenuous to imply that an average games goes T1> Sol Ring T2-T4> Land-go and nothing else.
Can we not call it a double Time Walk? Because that's just not true. It gives you 2 extra mana each turn you untap for an initial cost of 1. That's all. No one is debating that it is very powerful, but a double Time Walk it is not. You're better than that. And don't accuse me of being disingenuous of anything and then turn around and make a statement like that.
Obviously the T1 Sol Ring player has more ability to play more expensive spells early on, but the worst cast scenario is really going to be an early haymaker like a 6 drop on T4. I addressed the 4 on 2, 5 on 3, etc. already, so it's not like I'm pretending Sol Ring has suddenly become a Dark Ritual to get to 6 mana only on T4. I'm just saying that other players are capable of making plays too. The representation is that Sol Ring on T1 leaves everyone in the dust and that is the exception, not the rule. They're probably not going to be perfectly on curve, other players are going to have answers to some of their plays, haymakers that they'd have access to on T2-T4 (i.e. 4-6 mana) are not going to be ending the game against 3+ opponents without a lot of additional help. For the advantage Sol Ring provides to actually lead into anything in a normal EDH game, you would have to be sticking threats constantly, turn after turn, with each getting more dangerous. If you just start playing a 6 drop every turn from T5 onward, that 2 mana Sol Ring gave you isn't actually enabling all that much beyond that point. It loses effectiveness. This is what is referred to as a "power spike", which is commonly found in MOBAs where your characters have certain, temporary, increases in effectiveness from reaching a certain level for an ability or buying a particular item to become stronger than their opposition until they catch up with an item of their own. From T2-T5, that Sol Ring player is at a decent advantage, assuming no ramp by their opponents (unlikely). After T6, that Sol Ring has reduced effectiveness because now you have more than enough mana to do more than 1 thing a turn with a moderate CMC curve between 3.0-3.5. It's ineffectiveness as the game transitions into the full late-game is a major balancing point for its power. We're talking purely about the T1 Sol Ring in this thread, something that happens for any one player in the game less than 28% of the time (because sometimes 2 players will hit their 7% in the same game). For an individual, only 7% of the time (rough estimates, mulligans, keep-able hands, etc. obviously change this somewhat). In that 7%, that player needs a lot of things to go right for their own hand and for the other 3 players to have a lot of things go wrong (i.e. no answers, early tempo to keep up, etc.). So, less than 1/4th of games should have at least one T1 Sol Ring, assuming all decks run it. In those under-1/4th of games, so many things have to go right for that person to just run away with snowballed advantage. The likelihood is just so very low that this happens.
You're advocating a ban for an occurrence in a ridiculously small percentage of games. So low, in fact, that I have not experienced it happen in my games, to my recollection (anecdotal, I know).
Is a bad game happening because of Sol Ring maybe 1% of the time worth a ban? I seriously doubt it.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Clearly we're both just exaggerating at this point. A T1 Sol Ring happens roughly 25% of the time. That we agree on. Clearly you don't think that's a problem, which is just insane to me. I'm just going to quote from the article linked in the first post of this thread: I think you're severely low-balling how easy it is for an average deck to get an insane advantage from a T1 Sol Ring, even when you're not specifically trying to.
I might be low balling (impossible to tell). I admit that I did pick a low number because of my personal experiences. I don't think that those games where T1 Sol Ring actually ruins it (read: runs away with the game) is much more than 1% to 2%.
Yes, Sol Ring is powerful and a T1 Sol Ring is one of the best plays you can make in the format (though there does have to be a "best", that's just how Magic works). I don't think the ubiquity is a problem because I like playing with power. I like others playing with power. Even if it resulted in someone running away with the game, however rarely that may occur, it is still pretty cool to watch.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
In terms of turns, fast mana might get you to midgame earlier, but it terms of time, not so much. It only takes a couple minutes out of a game that could be measured in hours to get everyone to turn 4... assuming there isn't fast mana or 6 players with fetch lands every turn. And if Sol Ring gets you to the midgame faster, it doesn't do that for everyone else. Do you really think that one person taking nice, long midgame turns while everyone else is still at "play a two drop and pass" qualifies as people having more time with their toys? I'd say it's the opposite, since everyone else has to watch the Sol Ring player doing what they want to while they're still turns away from playing with theirs.
Now you can nit-pick about whats 'commonly' happening, but it happened enough in my fairly casual group that we house banned Sol Ring. And that was the only card ever really discussed. Now that group is gone, but the memories are not. Enough people have them, and I suspect you have seen games like that too, to be a real consideration.
while this somehow has managed to come up frequently for you, this has almost never come up for me. the ONLY occurence i can recall was not really the sol ring, it was just a nut hand in general, and won through concession on turn 7ish. i dont particularly consider a turn 7 win through concession to be too fast, maybe you do, but i dont. this didnt even "ruin" the game, it was super cool for all of us to see such an explosive start and we used it as a puzzle to try to find an out all game. basically, the ring accelerated it by 2 turns, but the hand would have won regardless. one common thing i see in here is people listing hands that probably would have won without the sol ring. if your group couldnt handle a t3 sigarda or t4 wurmcoil, it wasnt handling it on turn 5 or 6 either. sol ring "wins" happen so infrequently in either of my groups no one even acts differently towards a t1 sol ring player. another important note here, i am one of about 3 in either of my groups (one is about 12 people, the other about 20, rotating depending on who is present) who actively accesses pages such as this, so while this is not outright proof, it points towards sol ring "haters" being a vocal minority, esp considering those who are invested enough in the format to spend their free time online are most of the time a step or two above what the RC is making bans for
our group is by no means competitive either, there are no infinites, no mld, no stax, and most have rather budget decks, but everyone has built there deck in such a way that it can reliably interact with anything someone is trying to do.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
And I know middle schoolers a year into magic who complain about their one friend with the Mana Crypt and Sol Ring. They're not exactly heavy netdeckers there either.
There's no sense bringing up the experience of one specific group. That's not an important note here. You said it yourself describing the game that Sol Ring ran away with, that the rest of the table had to try and hunt for any solitary way to survive. You make it sound like a fun puzzle, but the game is a lot more of a fun puzzle when you actually have choices on how to act rather than having to walk the one path to survival. Obviously, that's the second mast extreme lack of choice next to the game ending, but one person out of control early for whatever reason robs the other players of some of their agency. Some people like that. I know this is the format for battlecruiser magic. I like games like that with big boards and swingy swings, but you still make lots of decisions along the way. Sol Ring encourages something more like battle cruise control. You play Sol Ring in every deck cause its the best card in the format, then you play it as soon as you can because there's no reason not to, then you play out your hand cause you have all the mana you need, then your opponents answer your stuff because they lose otherwise... what's the difference between a 2 turn game and a 20 turn game if nobody ever stops and ponders what they really want to play? Why does it matter if everyone's deck can interact with everything if it's not what you actually want to do? Sol Ring deletes the early game when you're free to make decisions and not just react blindly, and I think that's a disservice to everyone at the table regardless of who wins or how many turns it takes.
This is not only distorting my statement but also plain hyperbole. My statement was that out of all the games I've played, t1 sol ring has only led to a crazy start once. I've had probably 100 turn 1 sol rings. Going crazy in 1% of games it lands on t1 in my own experience is nowhere near ban worthy. In addition, you say i had no decisions to make that game, which is absurdly false, that game felt no less interactive than any other game. Hell, ive had more games ruined by grave pact and vorinclex than sol ring could ever try to muster
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I know the one game was just one game and an extreme example. I actively acknowledged that in my response to you. Then I gave a broad description of the damage I think Sol Ring does because I don't think giving an anecdote of my own experience is a worthwhile dispute to your anecdote of your own experience. I made the effort to respond because the one example of you having to tiptoe the line of survival was a good jumpoff point that Sol Ring works to limit play options.
Its a more subtle effect than "Vorinclex is super lame," but that's what makes it so insidious. If people don't want to play with or against a card, it makes a ban that much less necessary. I don't think I've seen a Vorinclex played against me more than a half dozen times ever, so I don't perceive a problem there worth banning (and I don't expect my experience to change your opinion).
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
And I know that's an extreme example, but you don't need that extreme a situation to have a detrimental effect. If 1% of the games with Sol Ring are taken over in a way that people can't even keep up, then there's also the category of games where people manage to answer it by making the reactionary plays they're forced into on the first turn. Or the second or third. Sol Ring and signet into something like a turn 3 Frost Titan is certainly not insurmountable, but with 2 or 3 lands out and one tapped down, it's going to become the entire game to you. It's the same problem as Primeval Titan or Prophet of Kruphix where their presence takes over the game, except instead of a couple specific cards, it's basically any reasonably high end threat landing in the first 3 turns that centralizes the game. It doesn't have to win the game to make things a whole lot less interesting.
I don't think that is an apt comparison. Prime Time and Prophet had an impact on the game at every single stage, warped deck building, and turned the game into a mini game for the entire table when it was out. Sol Ring has an undoubted effect when it's played turn 1, but that effect drops the more turns that pass.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I don't think you're considering how much of an impact Sol Ring has on this format when you say that. For example, if you go to the statistical breakdown thread and look at the CMC of the most popular ramp cards, ramp that costs 0 or 1 mana is very popular and 50% green, 2 mana ramp is slightly less popular and 20% green (meaning 80% of the popular 2 mana cost ramp spells can be played off of turn 1 Sol Ring), and then 3 mana ramp is the most popular and it's mostly green. So what's the problem with green 2-drop ramp? You can't play it on turn 1, and on turn 2 it's losing you tempo cause you aren't spending all your Sol Ring mana. Why play Rampant Growth when Solemn Simulacrum comes down the same turn? Sol Ring absolutely warps deckbuilding. The turn 1 Sol Ring into turn 2 second ramp spell into turn 3 6 or 7 drop threat (which is the mana cost where nearly all the most popular threats reside) is not accidentally built into like half the EDH decks in existance. The effect of a card is different if you can play it off of early Sol Ring mana, and people are going are going to remember the times they hit that best case scenario when deciding what to keep in their decks, and that skews the whole format. Once again, it's not as blatant as people actively choosing to play more clones because their friend plays Primeval Titan, but I'm pretty confident that a ban on Sol Ring, after allowing time for people to adjust to it, would have a more substantial impact on the other card choices people make than the ban on Prime Time or Prophet did.
Except that isn't what makes it format warping. Are opponents altering their deckbuilding because of the stone possibility of facing an opposing Sol Ring? Do players play a subgame of Clone/steal/reanimated the Sol Ring every time it comes into play?
Again, no one is arguing that a turn one Sol Ring has the potential to be very powerful. We are just questioning how much that impact remains ares turns progress. I also question how much the deck building process is a restored because you run Sol ring. I know I base my inclusion of it on the mana requirements of the rest of the deck, but I don't think I've ever thought to myself "I'm running Sol Ring so I better run X, Y, and Z as well".
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
And that's what I mean when I say that the effect is subtle or insidious. You don't think about it, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Example, you have 11 EDH decks in your signiture:
Decks without Sol Ring: 6
2 drop artifacts in those decks: 8
2 drop artifacts per deck without Sol Ring: 1.33
Decks with Sol Ring: 5
2 drop artifacts in those decks: 25
2 drop artifacts per deck with Sol Ring: 5
I don't doubt you at all when you're talking about your own thought processes. I'm sure you're not actively thinking about including those cards because of Sol Ring, but I'd also hazard a guess you aren't thinking "look at all these two drops, I'm gonna need a Sol Ring to meet those mana requirements." I won't try and put words in your mouth and guess the exact cause and effect chain here, but whatever the mechanism is, consciously or subconsciously, your decks that include Sol Ring include almost 4 times as many cards you can play with the turn 1 Sol Ring mana. That is a noticeable difference.
I don't know what I think about subconsciously (except for waffles and squirrels like any normal person), but the most I ever consciously think about involving Sol Ring is that it takes up a land slot. Beyond that, I worry about my overall curve. I guess the reason I can't see like you're seeing is that Sol Ring already goes into almost every deck that isn't being overtaxed with colored mana requirements, so I don't see the influence it creates. You include it like you would include Command Tower. Besides, basically any spell I want to get off a turn sooner like Kodama's Reach, Sad robot, signers, etc, are all cards I alli ready want to play, so again I don't feel like I'm driven to play them more because of Sol ring.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg