Sol Ring is one of the most debated cards not currently on the banned list. In this post you will find a quick summary as to why the Rules Committee has so far chosen not to ban it and some direct quotes from the Rules Committee on the subject.
Why isn't Sol Ring Currently Banned?
The short answer is that while Sol Ring is a very powerful mana rock during the early turns of the game, it is still only one card out of 99, and doesn't break the kinds of decks the RC encourages through their philosophy for the format.
Points for keeping Sol Ring unbanned
Under the RC's current philosophy, Sol Ring shouldn't be creating game states where it because impossible to deal with
It's only broken if it's in your opening hand and becomes a worse draw the further the game progresses.
Sol Ring is essentially a pillar of the format, in that it is a prime example of an old card that can't typically be played anywhere else.
Counterpoints for banning Sol Ring
Even in more laid back games, the early mana from sol ring can set them up to be in a winning position during the first few turns of the game, turning it in to archenemy.
Nearly every deck runs Sol Ring, making it feel required in order to have a chance to keep up.
The author of this article previously wrote up their couterpoints as to why they believe Sol Ring should be banned.
How much mana is too much mana and how early does it need to be there?
There's not a specific number, but two certainly isn't it. 4-6 in the early turns would be worrying.
Sol Ring is broken in competitive games and a popular, non-problem card in casual ones. If you want to play Commander competitively and not do broken things, you'll need to modify the banlist.
Quote from Sheldon »
1) This might be something you have discussed before, so I apologize if I am making you repeat, but what is the RC's opinion on Sol Ring? As I look around these forums, I struggle to find a deck that doesn't or shouldn't include Sol Ring. Seeing that this is a format that promotes diverse and unique deckbuilding, why should the one card that is in (practically) every deck be allowed? Do you think the format would be more diverse without it?
The format is already pretty diverse, but I don't think that the removal of Sol Ring would appreciably change that diversity. It sometimes helps folks get off to quicker starts (remember, it's still only one of 99), but not to the tune of too much mana too quickly. I know lots of decklists have it in them, but I also know a fair number of local players (Armada owner Aaron Fortino being one of them) who just don't think it's worth the slot, considering it a dead draw in the mid or late game.
That seems to make a very strong case for banning Sol Ring. I think that decision would make a lot of sense if you want to prevent too much mana too quickly and uninteractive games.
I'd really rather hear what you actually think than the official spiel anyway.
But thanks for taking the time to answer questions, especially the moxen vs Sol Ring one. I've played in edh games with people playing moxen and they are not that bad. Turn 1 Sol Ring is still the scarier play.
Too much mana means 6, not 2. The example isn't a turn 5 play on turn 3, it's a turn 10 play on turn 3. That means stuff like Rofellos and Academy. Sol Ring never produces more than 2 mana.
Note also that the power of Sol Ring is way lower in the kind of social decks that we're trying to foster. You get to do splashy plays a little earlier, not broken ones, and those are much easier to handle in a 4-player game. Does it occasionally snowball? Sure. The card is good. That's not the same as problematic.
It's also not nearly as ubiquitous as people think. It's popular, but outside of the competitive scene not the auto-include it is in the social one. I've got in in 1/4 decks. (Cue the "your decks would be better with it" crowd, missing the point)
Finally, it's traditionally been a major driver to the format. "I get to play with Sol Ring (And DTutor)?!" is the flip side of "I need moxes?"
Regardless, I was merely pointing out your misuse of "hypocrisy". If you'd chosen "stupid", or "brain-dead" or any one of a host of other choice terms, it'd have been fine. Hypocrisy would have been us banning the moxen, but demanding that we be allowed to use them.
Everybody loves mana. Mana lets you do stuff in this game, and with more mana, you can do more stuff. And to that point, this card represents one of the pinnacles of efficient ramping where a 1 drop investment allows you to get 2 mana that can be used right away.
We often see anecdotes brought up in games where a T1 Sol Ring is almost guaranteed a win. How true do you feel this statement is?
If a T1 Sol Ring contributes hugely to winning the game, are there any other cards that provide a huge advantage to the player if found in the opening hand? (Perhaps not T1 early, but a T2 or T3 Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora or a Necropotence)
A big component of a T1 Sol Ring is that it can use itself to fuel for even bigger ramp effects on T2 (T1: Land > Sol Ring, T2: Land > 4-drop ramp effect [Thran Dynamo, Skyshroud Claim, Explosive Vegetation]), often resulting in 6~7 mana to use by T3.
In a casual environment, do you feel that a 4~5 mana advantage (assuming the opponents only hit land drops) is enough for the Sol Ring player to win?
What about in a competitive environment?
Related to the previous point, what if the T1 Sol Ring is not used for any further ramping? Do you feel that a 2 mana advantage in a multiplayer game is enough to win? What if the opposition plays a 1-drop Mana Dork or a T2 2-drop mana rock? Is the 1 mana difference still enough to cause a significant difference?
Under the RC's current philosophy, Sol Ring shouldn't be creating game states where it because impossible to deal with
And yet it does. It's almost like the decks that are prepared for 15-20 turn games also aren't prepared to stop someone from swinging for lethal on turn 4.
It's only broken if it's in your opening hand and becomes a worse draw the further the game progresses.
And yet it can be a deciding factor at any point in the game since colorless Pyretic Ritual can make the difference at any point in a game of magic. I don't know why people imagine that the end of a game of magic is 4 people drawing one card each turn and playing it.
Sol Ring is essentially a pillar of the format, in that it is a prime example of an old card that can't typically be played anywhere else.
Because it shouldn't be played anywhere. The card is an immense design mistake that should be buried rather than embraced.
It's also not nearly as ubiquitous as people think. It's popular, but outside of the competitive scene not the auto-include it is in the social one. I've got in in 1/4 decks. (Cue the "your decks would be better with it" crowd, missing the point)
And this was written when there was only 1 round of commander products filling the market with Sol Rings. It just keeps becoming less and less true.
Death to Sol Ring!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
It should be noted that this was a general write up, not meant to convey any particular opinion on the card, one way or another. It's just meant to provide a general summary of Sol Ring arguments that have taken place elsewhere.
It should be noted that this was a general write up, not meant to convey any particular opinion on the card, one way or another. It's just meant to provide a general summary of Sol Ring arguments that have taken place elsewhere.
Yup! I just needed a prompt to get my anti-Sol Ring opinion in here early and often.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Mana crypt is about to become a whole lot more popular.
Now it's 2 cards out of the 99 that put you so far ahead in the early turns it can be impossible to stop.
Things sol ring/mana crypt breaks:
-Planeswalkers dropped off of early sol ring mana generally can't be stopped
-Voltron commanders swing for lethal before responses can be played
-Sol ring into a second, bigger ramp spell sets you up for game ending 7+ mana spells before opponents play their 3rd land. You could be staring down elesh norn before you hit the mana to play your solemn.
-Combos coming out so fast targetted removal can't keep up
-Exponential plays( think cards like jazal goldmane ) before opponents have dug deep enough into their library to come out with a proper answer.
Most of these exist in casual circles and fit right within the spectrum of what edh is supposed to be.
And then sol ring/mana crypt takes these otherwise fine plays and breaks them because they come out too fast to answer.
It is absolutely not healthy for the format to keep these legal.
Airithne, I appreciate you compiling the main points from both sides and facilitating this place to discuss. I'm no longer in the mind of convincing anyone of anything, but I'd like to put my opinion on record.
Points for keeping Sol Ring unbanned
Under the RC's current philosophy, Sol Ring shouldn't be creating game states where it because impossible to deal with
It's only broken if it's in your opening hand and becomes a worse draw the further the game progresses.
Sol Ring is essentially a pillar of the format, in that it is a prime example of an old card that can't typically be played anywhere else.
No one can really argue point #3. If you play EDH to play cards that are banned everywhere else, then this point will be moot to you even if it was a truly gamebreaking card. For point #2, I disagree. In my experience, people oftentimes get arbitrarily large mana pools and the 2 mana doesn't make a difference but that's not the case in the games the RC wishes to facilitate. Even if you have 15 mana to spend each turn, I don't agree that 2 mana is insignificant. On point #1, I want to say that in my opinion Sol Ring is not a game ender. It doesn't decide anything outright and it can be dealt with, especially with several people at the table. However, it's worrisome to me because it increases your chance of winning by a significant margin.
As an anecdote, my other main recreation is League of Legends. In LoL, each champion has a winrate of around 47-53%. It's not perfect, but it's an acceptable balance. Anything outside of that, for example Darius at 60% last season, is perceived as a HUGE problem and gets a balance adjustment. In the same vein, Sol Ring doesn't decide games, the winrate is surely not 100% but it's statistically significant enough to be included in nearly every deck, and that to me is a HUGE problem. It's centralizing within the game (whether you realize it or not), and outside the game (in deck building and diversity).
I tend to see it as those who are against Sol Ring remember the games where Sol Ring was immediately followed by a second piece of ramp; the games that went Sol Ring, then non ramp cards get forgotten because while you're ahead on mana it's not to an egregious degree.
Here's a link that summarizes all of the poor arguments people make to defend sol ring, and he highlights why they are poor arguments.
I initially was typing up a response where I would state all the poor arguments people made, and then when I was about 80% done I remembered to fetch this link, and I discovered that he actually made the exact same arguments, so I'm just going to post the link to be succinct (rather than repeat everything said in the link).
I would greatly appreciate it if the TC edited this link into his OP. It is by far the most thorough yet succinct argument for the banning of sol ring, and it summarizes many of the (faulty) arguments that people make trying to defend sol ring. I also personally ignore all arguments that mirror what were seen in the link. A lot of people like to chime in their 2 cents but essentially repeat whatever was refuted in the link.
If a T1 Sol Ring contributes hugely to winning the game, are there any other cards that provide a huge advantage to the player if found in the opening hand? (Perhaps not T1 early, but a T2 or T3 Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora or a Necropotence)
Rhystic study is only absurdly broken when people fail to pay the 1 enough times. It's a 1-sided sphere of resistance but has a punisher mechanic attached to it.
Remora is very powerful and I feel is actually underrated (I'm one of the few people in my playgroup who plays it, and this is a pretty competitive group. They don't literally go balls deep with doomsday/zur/etc., but they are very open to MLD, 2-card combos, 1-card combos like tooth and nail, etc.). With that said, the fact that it doesn't hit creatures and it has an upkeep makes it not broken enough to ban.
Necro, however, I think is close to ban worthy. In the big ban list topic, people were saying that necro is inferior to yawgmoth's bargain. I don't want to get into specific arguments between necro and bargain, but the point is that simply because bargain may or may not be better than necro doesn't change the fact that necro's power level in and of itself may be too high to be healthy for the format.
There are other cards that I think should be banned or are close to bannable (aside from mana crypt who is sol ring's brother), but I'll stop here.
Related to the previous point, what if the T1 Sol Ring is not used for any further ramping? Do you feel that a 2 mana advantage in a multiplayer game is enough to win? What if the opposition plays a 1-drop Mana Dork or a T2 2-drop mana rock? Is the 1 mana difference still enough to cause a significant difference?
Mana dorks have summoning sickness, which means it can't tap and do other things on that turn. It's true that most sol rings don't power out anything else on T1 or 2 when played that early, but there ARE very powerful things you can do with that 2-mana on the turn you play it. Lightning greaves, sensei's divining top (plus one more to spin the top), a regular 2-mana rock, etc. Again, things like T1 ring -> lightning greaves don't happen all the time, but keep in mind that just regular old T1 ring causes problems, and ring into greaves just causes MORE problems than that.
Mana dorks are generally easier to kill than sol ring. While this could depend on the meta, most people do tend to have more ways to kill creatures than any other permanent type, in part because these ways to kill creatures can also kill generals, and obviously killing generals is an important part of EDH.
And yes, that +1 mana sol ring provides over mana dorks (even if it's colorless) is huge. For example, T1 mana dork means you play a turn 2 cultivate, while I play explosive vegetation, which means you get 5-mana on turn 3 while I get 7 (assuming I do hit my 3rd land drop).
And obviously there's no argument with sol ring vs 2-mana rocks. A vast, vast majority of the 2-mana rocks produce +1 mana when sol ring produces +2, and the lower cost is also obviously huge.
I also want to add in a few other examples of low CMC cards that cna help produce mana, as I recall people using these as examples to try and defend sol ring. Namely, 0-CMC rocks (mox diamond, lion's eye diamond, etc.) and exploration and burgeoning. I'll cover the ones that come off the top of my head.
Mox diamond - Card disadvantage is a big deal, even if it's a land. That land can also be a big deal if your starting hand is low on land. For example, 1 land + mox diamond is kind of unkeepable, while 1 land + sol ring is okay if you have some card draw (e.g. if it's a fetchland and you also have crucible of worlds, or if you have cultivate, etc.) It's also a much worse midgame play, because at that time you may not have a land to pitch to feed it. While it does give +1 mana on the turn you play it, it's only +1 after you untap. For example, mox diamond is only 3 mana on turn 2, while sol ring is 4 mana on turn 2.
Chrome mox - Card disadvantage again. Also, compared to mox diamond, the mana it produces depends on the card you exile (the fact that you exile it is also notable when compared to mox diamond, where you just discard a land) and thus isn't guaranteed to be any color.
Mox opal - Only in artifact decks, and because you need metalcraft, it significantly reduces the chances that it'll do anything on T1 or 2.
Lion's eye diamond - If mox diamond's card disadvantage is a big deal, LED mind twisting your entire hand is even bigger. Unless your deck is basically built as a legacy/vintage storm deck, LED is very difficult to use (AFAIK that's the only EDH deck that LED goes in).
Exploration and burgeoning - You need extra lands in your hand to explode. This means that fewer cards in your hand are dedicated to other things. For example, assuming you land a T1 exploration/burgeoning versus a T1 sol ring, if you want 4 mana by turn 2, you would need 4 lands + exploration/burgeoning, which is 5 cards out of 9 (7 card starting hand plus 2 draw steps). With sol ring, that's 2 lands + ring, which is 3 cards out of 9. People strawmen and complain that T1 or 2 sol ring is "god hand", "magical christmasland", etc., but don't realize that T1 exploration/burgeoning would require an even more specific "god hand" to replicate what a simple sol ring + 2 lands could do.
Mana vault - this is actually legitimately tricky. Vault actually produces 1 more mana than sol ring. In that sense you can certainly argue that vault is more powerful. However, the reason why I give the nod to sol ring in this fight is that ring freely untaps. This means that if you play something off your sol ring and it gets answered, your ring untaps and lets you reload another shot if you've got one in your hand (or in the command zone). Vault requires help to untap, which means if your play off mana vault gets answered, you are much more hindered than if it was off a sol ring (you either spend 4 mana to untap it, or you require a relatively specific card like voltaic key, which is a card out of your hand and still takes some amount of mana too). Also, T1 ring means you can freely play something with the mana, whereas you have to be careful of when you tap that vault.
It's worth noting that mana vault could ALSO be ban worthy too. However, I do think sol ring is more powerful than vault, and thus I would rather ban sol ring first before we determine whether mana vault is still too powerful (assuming that sol ring is indeed more powerful than vault).
I very much agree with you. I think you have covered all the <2 mana rocks (That is not Sol Ring or Mana Crypt) of serious notice and why they are don't require the axe. You are right about Mana Vault being a tricky one, likely its fate would have to be evaluated post banning of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt should that ever happen. Happy to see the article you linked as well, since that help shed some light on why I think Sol Ring (and Mana Crypt) needs to go the way of the Dodo. Finally I think by banning those 2 cards you could potentially remove other cards from the ban list as the lack of Sol Ring results in certain cards only being cast-able at a later turn, where people might have accumulated answers or large threats themselves.
i always find it weird to read so many people complaining about sol ring on here, i can only think of 2-3 games off the top of my head where a t1 sol ring spiraled into a landslide victory. one game i remember in particular was where one guy went t1 sol ring signet, t2 metamorph copying ring, t3 mirarri's wake. this was an absolute nutters start, but one ancient grudge and a naturalize later and he was brought back down to the rest of our levels, and the struggle to answer his early ramp was extremely exciting. he actually did not end up winning that game either.
yea, i know my own experiences are not enough to prove sol ring is fine in edh, just as your experiences are not enough to prove it is not fine. i am just simply expressing my own experiences with the card.
as far as nearly every deck running sol ring, i say so what? almost every deck runs at least 1 signet, every black deck runs urborg, in fact theres a pretty good example of cards like this for every color combination.
I would greatly appreciate it if the TC edited this link into his OP. It is by far the most thorough yet succinct argument for the banning of sol ring, and it summarizes many of the (faulty) arguments that people make trying to defend sol ring. I also personally ignore all arguments that mirror what were seen in the link. A lot of people like to chime in their 2 cents but essentially repeat whatever was refuted in the link.
Her, and I've added it in to the OP. In the name of fairness, if anyone else has something similar but in the defense of Sol Ring staying unbanned, I can add that to the OP as well (it's also easier to PM one of the mods when you guys want stuff like this added, so that we don't miss the request in the thread).
i always find it weird to read so many people complaining about sol ring on here, i can only think of 2-3 games off the top of my head where a t1 sol ring spiraled into a landslide victory. one game i remember in particular was where one guy went t1 sol ring signet, t2 metamorph copying ring, t3 mirarri's wake. this was an absolute nutters start, but one ancient grudge and a naturalize later and he was brought back down to the rest of our levels, and the struggle to answer his early ramp was extremely exciting. he actually did not end up winning that game either.
yea, i know my own experiences are not enough to prove sol ring is fine in edh, just as your experiences are not enough to prove it is not fine. i am just simply expressing my own experiences with the card.
as far as nearly every deck running sol ring, i say so what? almost every deck runs at least 1 signet, every black deck runs urborg, in fact theres a pretty good example of cards like this for every color combination.
It is true. A lot of us speak from our own experiences and as such our argument is no more valid than yours. I will however add that a lot of people who play this format at a higher "power" level have been vocal about this, not saying that is the be all and end all, but some of those people test and push this format way more than I ever would and as such I think it's worth taking note of.
Yes, almost all colors have cards that are really good, but that is exactly the point being they are colored and thus by selecting that color you have already made a choice regarding the strengths and weaknesses (Sometimes just because you like a certain aspect) that implies. Bu making a choice you have already started defining your style of play and deck, which albeit small is a conscious player decision. Sol Ring doesn't seem like that as we all just jam it into every deck, why? Because it is that good. As such we are all diminishing the available slots to expressing our style/deck by 1, which I think goes against the spirit of wanting diversity in decks. We all want our decks to be our creations, our unique little snowflake, our pride and joy, albeit perhaps an exaggeration then that is likely never going to happen as almost no matter what deck you play against you will know that one of their cards is a Sol Ring.
On your specific example I will play devils advocate: "What would have happened if you hadn't had Ancient Grudge and Naturalize?". I will say having answers is part of good deck construction and you having the means to control testifies that. I am guessing your decks aren't chock full of artifact hate (Unless your meta has rampant artifact decks) so if that was the case he could potentially have steamrolled into a very commanding position. And if your decks have a lot of artifact removal to deal with Sol Ring (Unless yours is a heavy artifact meta), then I guess it has already warped the meta, which is not what a card is supposed to according to the philosophy. I am sorry if I sound a bit negative, but it is not meant to, it is just me being passionate about what I think is a very unhealthy card to the format.
i always find it weird to read so many people complaining about sol ring on here, i can only think of 2-3 games off the top of my head where a t1 sol ring spiraled into a landslide victory. one game i remember in particular was where one guy went t1 sol ring signet, t2 metamorph copying ring, t3 mirarri's wake. this was an absolute nutters start, but one ancient grudge and a naturalize later and he was brought back down to the rest of our levels, and the struggle to answer his early ramp was extremely exciting. he actually did not end up winning that game either.
yea, i know my own experiences are not enough to prove sol ring is fine in edh, just as your experiences are not enough to prove it is not fine. i am just simply expressing my own experiences with the card.
as far as nearly every deck running sol ring, i say so what? almost every deck runs at least 1 signet, every black deck runs urborg, in fact theres a pretty good example of cards like this for every color combination.
It is true. A lot of us speak from our own experiences and as such our argument is no more valid than yours. I will however add that a lot of people who play this format at a higher "power" level have been vocal about this, not saying that is the be all and end all, but some of those people test and push this format way more than I ever would and as such I think it's worth taking note of.
Yes, almost all colors have cards that are really good, but that is exactly the point being they are colored and thus by selecting that color you have already made a choice regarding the strengths and weaknesses (Sometimes just because you like a certain aspect) that implies. Bu making a choice you have already started defining your style of play and deck, which albeit small is a conscious player decision. Sol Ring doesn't seem like that as we all just jam it into every deck, why? Because it is that good. As such we are all diminishing the available slots to expressing our style/deck by 1, which I think goes against the spirit of wanting diversity in decks. We all want our decks to be our creations, our unique little snowflake, our pride and joy, albeit perhaps an exaggeration then that is likely never going to happen as almost no matter what deck you play against you will know that one of their cards is a Sol Ring.
On your specific example I will play devils advocate: "What would have happened if you hadn't had Ancient Grudge and Naturalize?". I will say having answers is part of good deck construction and you having the means to control testifies that. I am guessing your decks aren't chock full of artifact hate (Unless your meta has rampant artifact decks) so if that was the case he could potentially have steamrolled into a very commanding position. And if your decks have a lot of artifact removal to deal with Sol Ring (Unless yours is a heavy artifact meta), then I guess it has already warped the meta, which is not what a card is supposed to according to the philosophy. I am sorry if I sound a bit negative, but it is not meant to, it is just me being passionate about what I think is a very unhealthy card to the format.
There is an artifact based deck in my meta, and multiple copies of torpor orb, which makes my deck cease to function so i run 5 pieces of single artifact removal and one piece of mass artifact removal. It has nothing to do with sol ring, thats just a bonus
Asking what if i didnt have the grudge is the same as asking what would have happened last night if i didnt rip a birthing pod off the top to answer my opponents black market with 8 counters on it - i simply cannot know. If, instead of lots of mana ramp, my opponent drops an ulamog on turn 1 somehow and i cannot answer it, i can certainly tell you how that game goes. What i cannot tell you is whether my opponents hands actually had any real way of doing anything with all of that mana, as for every game i have ramped to 9 mana by turn 5 and TnN for an unsurmountable advantage, theres been a game where i ramped to 9 and didnt draw a payoff for all of that ramp for a good while, to the point where i was barely ahead on mana anyway. Which brings me full circle, yes sometimes sol ring enables crazy starts, but sometimes it just doesnt have any real effect on the game, and other times your opponents just mop up your advantages over the next few turns.
As an anecdote, my other main recreation is League of Legends. In LoL, each champion has a winrate of around 47-53%. It's not perfect, but it's an acceptable balance. Anything outside of that, for example Darius at 60% last season, is perceived as a HUGE problem and gets a balance adjustment. In the same vein, Sol Ring doesn't decide games, the winrate is surely not 100% but it's statistically significant enough to be included in nearly every deck, and that to me is a HUGE problem. It's centralizing within the game (whether you realize it or not), and outside the game (in deck building and diversity).
This analogy falls apart, though, because Commander is ARAM, and the champs aren't terribly balanced there. It's still fun.
Airithne, I appreciate you compiling the main points from both sides and facilitating this place to discuss. I'm no longer in the mind of convincing anyone of anything, but I'd like to put my opinion on record.
Like I mentioned earlier, this was meant to be a general summary of arguments previously made in the BL thread (and Google!), rather than a hardline argument either way. I'm happy to add or revise anything upon request, but the OP needs to be kept as neutral as possible.
As an anecdote, my other main recreation is League of Legends. In LoL, each champion has a winrate of around 47-53%. It's not perfect, but it's an acceptable balance. Anything outside of that, for example Darius at 60% last season, is perceived as a HUGE problem and gets a balance adjustment. In the same vein, Sol Ring doesn't decide games, the winrate is surely not 100% but it's statistically significant enough to be included in nearly every deck, and that to me is a HUGE problem. It's centralizing within the game (whether you realize it or not), and outside the game (in deck building and diversity).
This analogy falls apart, though, because Commander is ARAM, and the champs aren't terribly balanced there. It's still fun.
I can say for sure that I have a hell of a lot less fun when I'm playing with/as bad ARAM champions against good ARAM champions. The lineups can be lopsided enough to create non-games.
Sol ring feels like that a lot to me. I'll be sitting there with three lands when my opponent with the sol ring opener has just executed their entire gameplan and is already at end game.
As an anecdote, my other main recreation is League of Legends. In LoL, each champion has a winrate of around 47-53%. It's not perfect, but it's an acceptable balance. Anything outside of that, for example Darius at 60% last season, is perceived as a HUGE problem and gets a balance adjustment. In the same vein, Sol Ring doesn't decide games, the winrate is surely not 100% but it's statistically significant enough to be included in nearly every deck, and that to me is a HUGE problem. It's centralizing within the game (whether you realize it or not), and outside the game (in deck building and diversity).
This analogy falls apart, though, because Commander is ARAM, and the champs aren't terribly balanced there. It's still fun.
I can say for sure that I have a hell of a lot less fun when I'm playing with/as bad ARAM champions against good ARAM champions. The lineups can be lopsided enough to create non-games.
Sol ring feels like that a lot to me. I'll be sitting there with three lands when my opponent with the sol ring opener has just executed their entire gameplan and is already at end game.
I have nightmares where im a lone soraka against a team of 3 xerath and 2 teemo in aram
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Is there a specific reason this one does not have a poll?
Of course: it hasn't been requested. Though I believe a poll immediately at the beginning of a thread is a bit premature. I'd rather give people a chance to present theit arguments, and get me any resources they would like for the OP.
You mean 98-card format. The general, the 100th, is in the command zone.
I want to point out an often-overlooked issue with power cards like Sol Ring. Mulligan types and decisions play heavily into a T1 or T2 Sol Ring.
It's not "anecdotal" once you start seeing it more and more often. Let's us not pretend, given the choice to take a free mulligan (or perhaps if your house encourages more), people tend to always take the option to optimize their gameplan.
Partial Mulligan makes Sol Ring even more likely to turn up than not. It's a pseudo-free dig if you like. While I understand the ease of partial and other forms, putting fast mana into the equation is a recipe for poor games.
You mean 98-card format. The general, the 100th, is in the command zone.
I want to point out an often-overlooked issue with power cards like Sol Ring. Mulligan types and decisions play heavily into a T1 or T2 Sol Ring.
It's not "anecdotal" once you start seeing it more and more often. Let's us not pretend, given the choice to take a free mulligan (or perhaps if your house encourages more), people tend to always take the option to optimize their gameplan.
Partial Mulligan makes Sol Ring even more likely to turn up than not. It's a pseudo-free dig if you like. While I understand the ease of partial and other forms, putting fast mana into the equation is a recipe for poor games.
If you play with standard (by standard, I mean standard to Magic in general) mulligans, the average table of 4 has one person land Sol Ring early. If you play with really lenient mulligans, the average table of 4 has two people land Sol Ring early. Do you really think that one person taking over the game is a better situation that 2 people fighting over it?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
If you play with standard (by standard, I mean standard to Magic in general) mulligans, the average table of 4 has one person land Sol Ring early. If you play with really lenient mulligans, the average table of 4 has two people land Sol Ring early. Do you really think that one person taking over the game is a better situation that 2 people fighting over it?
I think you may have misread what Bolas posted.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Sol Ring is one of the most debated cards not currently on the banned list. In this post you will find a quick summary as to why the Rules Committee has so far chosen not to ban it and some direct quotes from the Rules Committee on the subject.
Why isn't Sol Ring Currently Banned?
The short answer is that while Sol Ring is a very powerful mana rock during the early turns of the game, it is still only one card out of 99, and doesn't break the kinds of decks the RC encourages through their philosophy for the format.
Points for keeping Sol Ring unbanned
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
We often see anecdotes brought up in games where a T1 Sol Ring is almost guaranteed a win. How true do you feel this statement is?
If a T1 Sol Ring contributes hugely to winning the game, are there any other cards that provide a huge advantage to the player if found in the opening hand? (Perhaps not T1 early, but a T2 or T3 Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora or a Necropotence)
A big component of a T1 Sol Ring is that it can use itself to fuel for even bigger ramp effects on T2 (T1: Land > Sol Ring, T2: Land > 4-drop ramp effect [Thran Dynamo, Skyshroud Claim, Explosive Vegetation]), often resulting in 6~7 mana to use by T3.
And yet it does. It's almost like the decks that are prepared for 15-20 turn games also aren't prepared to stop someone from swinging for lethal on turn 4.
And yet it can be a deciding factor at any point in the game since colorless Pyretic Ritual can make the difference at any point in a game of magic. I don't know why people imagine that the end of a game of magic is 4 people drawing one card each turn and playing it.
Because it shouldn't be played anywhere. The card is an immense design mistake that should be buried rather than embraced.
And this was written when there was only 1 round of commander products filling the market with Sol Rings. It just keeps becoming less and less true.
Death to Sol Ring!
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Yup! I just needed a prompt to get my anti-Sol Ring opinion in here early and often.
Mana crypt is about to become a whole lot more popular.
Now it's 2 cards out of the 99 that put you so far ahead in the early turns it can be impossible to stop.
Things sol ring/mana crypt breaks:
-Planeswalkers dropped off of early sol ring mana generally can't be stopped
-Voltron commanders swing for lethal before responses can be played
-Sol ring into a second, bigger ramp spell sets you up for game ending 7+ mana spells before opponents play their 3rd land. You could be staring down elesh norn before you hit the mana to play your solemn.
-Combos coming out so fast targetted removal can't keep up
-Exponential plays( think cards like jazal goldmane ) before opponents have dug deep enough into their library to come out with a proper answer.
Most of these exist in casual circles and fit right within the spectrum of what edh is supposed to be.
And then sol ring/mana crypt takes these otherwise fine plays and breaks them because they come out too fast to answer.
It is absolutely not healthy for the format to keep these legal.
No one can really argue point #3. If you play EDH to play cards that are banned everywhere else, then this point will be moot to you even if it was a truly gamebreaking card. For point #2, I disagree. In my experience, people oftentimes get arbitrarily large mana pools and the 2 mana doesn't make a difference but that's not the case in the games the RC wishes to facilitate. Even if you have 15 mana to spend each turn, I don't agree that 2 mana is insignificant. On point #1, I want to say that in my opinion Sol Ring is not a game ender. It doesn't decide anything outright and it can be dealt with, especially with several people at the table. However, it's worrisome to me because it increases your chance of winning by a significant margin.
As an anecdote, my other main recreation is League of Legends. In LoL, each champion has a winrate of around 47-53%. It's not perfect, but it's an acceptable balance. Anything outside of that, for example Darius at 60% last season, is perceived as a HUGE problem and gets a balance adjustment. In the same vein, Sol Ring doesn't decide games, the winrate is surely not 100% but it's statistically significant enough to be included in nearly every deck, and that to me is a HUGE problem. It's centralizing within the game (whether you realize it or not), and outside the game (in deck building and diversity).
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
I initially was typing up a response where I would state all the poor arguments people made, and then when I was about 80% done I remembered to fetch this link, and I discovered that he actually made the exact same arguments, so I'm just going to post the link to be succinct (rather than repeat everything said in the link).
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/15187-the-math-of-banning-sol-ring-in-commander
I would greatly appreciate it if the TC edited this link into his OP. It is by far the most thorough yet succinct argument for the banning of sol ring, and it summarizes many of the (faulty) arguments that people make trying to defend sol ring. I also personally ignore all arguments that mirror what were seen in the link. A lot of people like to chime in their 2 cents but essentially repeat whatever was refuted in the link.
Rhystic study is only absurdly broken when people fail to pay the 1 enough times. It's a 1-sided sphere of resistance but has a punisher mechanic attached to it.
Remora is very powerful and I feel is actually underrated (I'm one of the few people in my playgroup who plays it, and this is a pretty competitive group. They don't literally go balls deep with doomsday/zur/etc., but they are very open to MLD, 2-card combos, 1-card combos like tooth and nail, etc.). With that said, the fact that it doesn't hit creatures and it has an upkeep makes it not broken enough to ban.
Necro, however, I think is close to ban worthy. In the big ban list topic, people were saying that necro is inferior to yawgmoth's bargain. I don't want to get into specific arguments between necro and bargain, but the point is that simply because bargain may or may not be better than necro doesn't change the fact that necro's power level in and of itself may be too high to be healthy for the format.
There are other cards that I think should be banned or are close to bannable (aside from mana crypt who is sol ring's brother), but I'll stop here.
Mana dorks have summoning sickness, which means it can't tap and do other things on that turn. It's true that most sol rings don't power out anything else on T1 or 2 when played that early, but there ARE very powerful things you can do with that 2-mana on the turn you play it. Lightning greaves, sensei's divining top (plus one more to spin the top), a regular 2-mana rock, etc. Again, things like T1 ring -> lightning greaves don't happen all the time, but keep in mind that just regular old T1 ring causes problems, and ring into greaves just causes MORE problems than that.
Mana dorks are generally easier to kill than sol ring. While this could depend on the meta, most people do tend to have more ways to kill creatures than any other permanent type, in part because these ways to kill creatures can also kill generals, and obviously killing generals is an important part of EDH.
And yes, that +1 mana sol ring provides over mana dorks (even if it's colorless) is huge. For example, T1 mana dork means you play a turn 2 cultivate, while I play explosive vegetation, which means you get 5-mana on turn 3 while I get 7 (assuming I do hit my 3rd land drop).
And obviously there's no argument with sol ring vs 2-mana rocks. A vast, vast majority of the 2-mana rocks produce +1 mana when sol ring produces +2, and the lower cost is also obviously huge.
I also want to add in a few other examples of low CMC cards that cna help produce mana, as I recall people using these as examples to try and defend sol ring. Namely, 0-CMC rocks (mox diamond, lion's eye diamond, etc.) and exploration and burgeoning. I'll cover the ones that come off the top of my head.
Mox diamond - Card disadvantage is a big deal, even if it's a land. That land can also be a big deal if your starting hand is low on land. For example, 1 land + mox diamond is kind of unkeepable, while 1 land + sol ring is okay if you have some card draw (e.g. if it's a fetchland and you also have crucible of worlds, or if you have cultivate, etc.) It's also a much worse midgame play, because at that time you may not have a land to pitch to feed it. While it does give +1 mana on the turn you play it, it's only +1 after you untap. For example, mox diamond is only 3 mana on turn 2, while sol ring is 4 mana on turn 2.
Chrome mox - Card disadvantage again. Also, compared to mox diamond, the mana it produces depends on the card you exile (the fact that you exile it is also notable when compared to mox diamond, where you just discard a land) and thus isn't guaranteed to be any color.
Mox opal - Only in artifact decks, and because you need metalcraft, it significantly reduces the chances that it'll do anything on T1 or 2.
Lion's eye diamond - If mox diamond's card disadvantage is a big deal, LED mind twisting your entire hand is even bigger. Unless your deck is basically built as a legacy/vintage storm deck, LED is very difficult to use (AFAIK that's the only EDH deck that LED goes in).
Exploration and burgeoning - You need extra lands in your hand to explode. This means that fewer cards in your hand are dedicated to other things. For example, assuming you land a T1 exploration/burgeoning versus a T1 sol ring, if you want 4 mana by turn 2, you would need 4 lands + exploration/burgeoning, which is 5 cards out of 9 (7 card starting hand plus 2 draw steps). With sol ring, that's 2 lands + ring, which is 3 cards out of 9. People strawmen and complain that T1 or 2 sol ring is "god hand", "magical christmasland", etc., but don't realize that T1 exploration/burgeoning would require an even more specific "god hand" to replicate what a simple sol ring + 2 lands could do.
Mana vault - this is actually legitimately tricky. Vault actually produces 1 more mana than sol ring. In that sense you can certainly argue that vault is more powerful. However, the reason why I give the nod to sol ring in this fight is that ring freely untaps. This means that if you play something off your sol ring and it gets answered, your ring untaps and lets you reload another shot if you've got one in your hand (or in the command zone). Vault requires help to untap, which means if your play off mana vault gets answered, you are much more hindered than if it was off a sol ring (you either spend 4 mana to untap it, or you require a relatively specific card like voltaic key, which is a card out of your hand and still takes some amount of mana too). Also, T1 ring means you can freely play something with the mana, whereas you have to be careful of when you tap that vault.
It's worth noting that mana vault could ALSO be ban worthy too. However, I do think sol ring is more powerful than vault, and thus I would rather ban sol ring first before we determine whether mana vault is still too powerful (assuming that sol ring is indeed more powerful than vault).
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
yea, i know my own experiences are not enough to prove sol ring is fine in edh, just as your experiences are not enough to prove it is not fine. i am just simply expressing my own experiences with the card.
as far as nearly every deck running sol ring, i say so what? almost every deck runs at least 1 signet, every black deck runs urborg, in fact theres a pretty good example of cards like this for every color combination.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
It is true. A lot of us speak from our own experiences and as such our argument is no more valid than yours. I will however add that a lot of people who play this format at a higher "power" level have been vocal about this, not saying that is the be all and end all, but some of those people test and push this format way more than I ever would and as such I think it's worth taking note of.
Yes, almost all colors have cards that are really good, but that is exactly the point being they are colored and thus by selecting that color you have already made a choice regarding the strengths and weaknesses (Sometimes just because you like a certain aspect) that implies. Bu making a choice you have already started defining your style of play and deck, which albeit small is a conscious player decision. Sol Ring doesn't seem like that as we all just jam it into every deck, why? Because it is that good. As such we are all diminishing the available slots to expressing our style/deck by 1, which I think goes against the spirit of wanting diversity in decks. We all want our decks to be our creations, our unique little snowflake, our pride and joy, albeit perhaps an exaggeration then that is likely never going to happen as almost no matter what deck you play against you will know that one of their cards is a Sol Ring.
On your specific example I will play devils advocate: "What would have happened if you hadn't had Ancient Grudge and Naturalize?". I will say having answers is part of good deck construction and you having the means to control testifies that. I am guessing your decks aren't chock full of artifact hate (Unless your meta has rampant artifact decks) so if that was the case he could potentially have steamrolled into a very commanding position. And if your decks have a lot of artifact removal to deal with Sol Ring (Unless yours is a heavy artifact meta), then I guess it has already warped the meta, which is not what a card is supposed to according to the philosophy. I am sorry if I sound a bit negative, but it is not meant to, it is just me being passionate about what I think is a very unhealthy card to the format.
There is an artifact based deck in my meta, and multiple copies of torpor orb, which makes my deck cease to function so i run 5 pieces of single artifact removal and one piece of mass artifact removal. It has nothing to do with sol ring, thats just a bonus
Asking what if i didnt have the grudge is the same as asking what would have happened last night if i didnt rip a birthing pod off the top to answer my opponents black market with 8 counters on it - i simply cannot know. If, instead of lots of mana ramp, my opponent drops an ulamog on turn 1 somehow and i cannot answer it, i can certainly tell you how that game goes. What i cannot tell you is whether my opponents hands actually had any real way of doing anything with all of that mana, as for every game i have ramped to 9 mana by turn 5 and TnN for an unsurmountable advantage, theres been a game where i ramped to 9 and didnt draw a payoff for all of that ramp for a good while, to the point where i was barely ahead on mana anyway. Which brings me full circle, yes sometimes sol ring enables crazy starts, but sometimes it just doesnt have any real effect on the game, and other times your opponents just mop up your advantages over the next few turns.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
This analogy falls apart, though, because Commander is ARAM, and the champs aren't terribly balanced there. It's still fun.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
I can say for sure that I have a hell of a lot less fun when I'm playing with/as bad ARAM champions against good ARAM champions. The lineups can be lopsided enough to create non-games.
Sol ring feels like that a lot to me. I'll be sitting there with three lands when my opponent with the sol ring opener has just executed their entire gameplan and is already at end game.
I have nightmares where im a lone soraka against a team of 3 xerath and 2 teemo in aram
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
With the exception of a very few Commanders, Sol Ring will be in every deck so instead of this being a 100 card format it becomes a 99 card format.
I guess I would say my argument is for card diversity?
URThe Joy of Painting with Nin, the Pain Artist!UR
I want to point out an often-overlooked issue with power cards like Sol Ring. Mulligan types and decisions play heavily into a T1 or T2 Sol Ring.
It's not "anecdotal" once you start seeing it more and more often. Let's us not pretend, given the choice to take a free mulligan (or perhaps if your house encourages more), people tend to always take the option to optimize their gameplan.
Partial Mulligan makes Sol Ring even more likely to turn up than not. It's a pseudo-free dig if you like. While I understand the ease of partial and other forms, putting fast mana into the equation is a recipe for poor games.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
If you play with standard (by standard, I mean standard to Magic in general) mulligans, the average table of 4 has one person land Sol Ring early. If you play with really lenient mulligans, the average table of 4 has two people land Sol Ring early. Do you really think that one person taking over the game is a better situation that 2 people fighting over it?
I think you may have misread what Bolas posted.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!