Just curious, but what estimation do you think the ban list number will fall on that update?
Not quite sure what you mean, but to try and answer that... We'll be doing a very small ban list update this Thursday. I have an idea of what I'm banning, but I'm in discussions with others to make sure these decisions are for the right reasons based on the info we're gleaning and any variables to consider, as the meta is very early. I think the number of banned cards will res between 2-6 cards after this update.
We'll be holding off bans for a bit, outside of meta emergencies, to let the format play out. But right now there is a concern over diversity and certain volatility. Overall the format is playing well and I think the issues are very manageable. The ideas over what to ban and unban will be more obvious the longer the format plays out, but right now I need to address a few trends for the sake of diversity in its early life.
Here's another tournament update. As I'm sure between the 3 ran you maaaaay notice a commonality between them as a hint as to what changes may be coming:
Decks entered:
- 2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
- Maelstrom Wanderer
- The Mimeoplasm
- Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
- Ezuri, Claw of Progress
- Progenitus
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Iroas, God of Victory
- Arjun, the Shifting Flame
- Purphoros, God of the Forge
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Triad of Fates
- Kaalia of the Vast
Well, the one glaringly obvious thing I see is that green and blue are really damn good. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a problem, though. There has to be a best and it doesn't even seem like the same commander is winning all the time. It's just the colors we've known were good commander colors forever are still good with the exception of black that was horribly neutered in the areas it was good in with the modern card pool. It lost all its tutors and mana with 5 being the typical tutor anything cost and a lot of other colors having restricted 3 mana tutoring.
Honestly black is not bad, it just isn't as combo oriented. We only have so many players currently testing so it's a bit hard to determine power...but it is indeed obvious green is the popular pick. A lot of this however is largely contributed to Prime Time/Primordial being picks again and some of the ease the color has with being successful through preexisting archetypes. I feel when players explore more and trust the format to build from scratch (as most decks are adaptations from Classic EDH) we'll see other colors shine through. Red certainly is doing more work than normal.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Do you mind lending some insight into what made T+N banned but not Protean Hulk? If combo is the issue, wouldn't they be equally an issue?
Not sure I follow, Protean is banned. The full ban list is:
- Prophet of Kruphix
- Trade Secrets
- Tooth and Nail
- Protean Hulk
- Sol Ring
The previous post was what was new if that lead to confusion. Ultimately I put them in the same category, but we felt Protean was easier to abuse being a creature and how accessible reanimation was with that card type, thus it was an immediate ban going in. TaN was always on the fence and admittedly I ban it with reluctance, but feel this is for the best.
Just out of curiosity with your three tournaments completed, did you see any issues with Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial being over-utilized? I think you've removed some potential issue with them by getting rid of Tooth and Nail and the nature of the format not allowing for an abundance of creature tutors.
Just out of curiosity with your three tournaments completed, did you see any issues with Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial being over-utilized? I think you've removed some potential issue with them by getting rid of Tooth and Nail and the nature of the format not allowing for an abundance of creature tutors.
I run it in my deck..never really got to abuse it persay, but ive seen people copy/clone them through various ways. Not enough to guarantee a win though
Just out of curiosity with your three tournaments completed, did you see any issues with Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial being over-utilized? I think you've removed some potential issue with them by getting rid of Tooth and Nail and the nature of the format not allowing for an abundance of creature tutors.
We've seen them used heavily, but it doesn't seem to present an issue of being overpowered. I think a lot of the usage comes directly from the cards being unbanned and the notion they're OP in standard EDH. With Titan, the fact you aren't grabbing crazy powerful lands like Gaea's Cradle and such is a huge factor in keeping it in check and I haven't seen it get out of control...it's simply a really solid ramp card on a body. I personally don't run it in my Derevi though. Sylvan is good, but no one has really broken it yet. It's still early too tell, but so far they feel fair and I'm expecting them to become a little less used once the novelty wears off from the unbanning. I'm also expecting a meta shift of Bribery and theft/copy effects to maybe counter them and make people passively resist the temptation to use the card flippantly without justifying reasons in the deck construction.
Only a small tournament this week due to a conflicting comic-con, but we saw people not using simic which is nice.
- 2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
- Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
- Marchesa, the Black Rose
- Phenax, God of Deception
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
The Derevi deck uses many of those reanimator loops (rev/karmic/suntitan/fiend/etc... + sac). But that aside, that combo is not particularly broken and dominating, although very viable. The last update of rules seemed to really help against the worst offenders. The way the format runs, players have plenty of time to acquire answers and play around combos. Currently I'm not too worried about the available 2-3 card infinites, they seem balanced by other factors at the moment.
Out of curiosity, how many turns do games tend to last? Is this in line with your expectations and/or desires?
Guesstimating off the top of my head but I'd say 9-11 turns is the average, the shortest game was a round 4 and only 3 games have gone to time. I'd say this is exactly as hoped. We've been pretty vocal that we want people to try and break the format and we get many classic EDH infinites thrown in the mix, but the cardpool restriction, 30 life, and return of partial paris mull has really curbed their ability to consistently take games turn 2-5. We're seeing combos go off later and put under pressure by combat damage which is what I wanted to see. I personally think noninteractive decks should feel the risks of not interacting and the format seems to be doing that as planned.
Right now it's still a little early to say this will be how it plays out. It's a small test pool of players and many decks are modified versions of classic EDH builds, so the intent to embrace newer build styles hasn't been fully realized. Ideally I'm striving for the 9-11 turns type of game play, even in the most degenerate build attempts, and hope to see a broader spectrum of archetypes. Aggro/voltron simply hasn't been run enough to see if it's viable, but the purphoros deck has showcased red has really strong capabilities of dealing 90 damage in this slower game play. The current mix is established EDH comp players, a few pro constructed players, and fresh out the gate casuals...so I got a healthy diversity to observe and see how this format plays for other player types.
In a turn 9-11 meta, with 30 life, I feel like aggro almost has to be viable.
Are commanders from pre-Modern blocks also restricted? I notice a pretty hefty bias towards pre-con commanders from your events.
I'm also curious if the games are so slow (remember, Sheldon says EDH should be a turn 10 format when it isn't competitive and your competitive version with a Modern pool is right in that range) because there just aren't enough powerful cards to full flesh out a deck. I guess what I am trying to ask is if the limited card pool stifles the power of a deck by narrowing options? I guess what I'd also like to know is what the average game length is for duel commander games as well to compare.
Looking through my decks, it seems to be mostly sac outlets and tutors that I would be losing, which hurts deck speed in a big way; something I'm not sure is great in a singleton format. I'd rather have tutors and whatnot as opposed to partial paris mulls(especially not free partials, just because I really disagree with the concept of them).
I'm interested in how good Narset is in this format as well.
They are restricted. While many of them are perfectly balanced currently it's already an issue of practicality to make so many exceptions to confuse players getting into it. As well I'm not making this format to compete with Classic EDH, but to be a different feel with the same spirit...it's very akin to how standard came out of Legacy way back when in constructed. So part of it is drawing a line at Modern cardpools, mainly because this format encourages newer players who likely don't have Legacy cards, yet Modern and Standard are more commonly played. That said it makes bans easier as I don't have to really think about a few potential issues like Braids.
It's slow because we're losing a lot of the broken mana accel and under costed effects. As well the reduction of tutors puts more emphasis on card draw and the more costly tutors with more mid game impact (like Wargate). The slight decrease in speed along with Partial Paris allows players to have enough time to play around/answer problems. In Classic EDH you can ramp and win before anyone can get set up and they're completely at the luck of having the right answers at a quick enough pace. The decks still feel very powerful, but that turn or two delay against sculpted hands makes it very hard to race for the win uncontested. Basically people get enough chance to play without being blown out in competitive play and that's what I wanted. I have always been a major advocate of Partial Paris because of the underlying skill factor it presents. The issue in normal EDH is that cards are so OP, greedily sculpting to combo out is sometimes too powerful...but when you curb that speed and remove some of the cheaper 2 card infinites, sculpted hands become great defensive opportunities that make singleton function better. Remember, many cards don't have similar effect card redundancy and some decks like versatility in a list. Overall Vancouver presents too high of a luck factor and we'd rather games be influenced more by played choices and part of that is giving them the ability to have strong hands. The idea that 3 people should be able to stop a greedy hand at this speed is very important to how the games play out.
I'm curious about Narset as well. We have a VERY degenerate one that consistently turn 2-4s in our normal EDH events and I wanna see how it translates here (A deck that is resistant to Vancouver Mulligan, but struggled against my Derevi hate bear stax when Partial was in place)
Well, aside from tutors, busted mistakes, and fast mana, the only things I'd lose from my 19 commander decks are Swords to Plowshares, Cauldron Dance, Breath of Life, Miraculous Recovery, Crush of Wurms, Ashes to Ashes, and Aftershock. They're all nickle bin jank that could easily be reprinted in a Commander deck with the exception of Swords which was surprisingly never in a Commander deck. I guess modern commander has almost perfectly captured what people wanted from tournament multiplayer commander. Congrats on doing what no one else managed to do. Of course, I still think casual Commander is more fun with the broken *****, but whatever. I'm sure Sheldon is probably pleased, too. Maybe people will leave the rules committee alone now that you've fixed the format for competition.
Swords to Plowshares was released in Conspiracy, so its good to go!
Casual Commander with all the broken stuff is still fun, but its a casual game. In a tournament scene it can be very frustrating. People do want to win, but to make a 100 card singleton deck that has all this fun interaction yet to lose turn 2-3-4 in a good majority of games isnt fun whatsoever.
This event has the kitchen table feel to it, but also has the competitive excite to it as well. I have been a big fan so far.
I guess I missed Conspiracy on the list. I did it from memory and thought it was just modern sets plus commander stuff. So, why Conspiracy? That's kind of a weird inclusion when Archenemy and Planechase are out.
We run out events as a 4 rounds swiss. We're introducing 1/0/0/0 point system this week, so it is winner take all, but the swiss aspect helps players get back in and separate pods nicely based on performance of your opponents.
I really hope this catches on and relieves pressure on the RC. I know I've been a major critic in the past, but I see more and more what they want out of the format and my goal is coexistence as that casual tabletop is a great thing they've put together. I simply want to help players find games they want and having separate sub formats helps with that as event/tournament style play has always been a very tough task.
Planechase and Archenemy were left out for a few reasons. Mainly it's to not over complicate the list of legal sets as players already struggle with what's listed. The other reason is consideration of cards we gain by adding them and I didn't feel they really added in a constructive way to the format. Conspiracy simply had too many cards that were useful for the format and caters to multiplayer.
Reanimate is popular, but hasn't poisoned the meta. I'm still seeing new decks get ahead each week and I'm super excited to see how the 4 color commanders coming out will fair. I'm pretty happy with the format as is and ready to launch the site this/next week and hope it takes publicly.
This weeks turn out:
- 2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
- Isamaru, Hound of Konda
- Toshiro Umezawa
- Maelstrom Wanderer
- Feldon of the Third Path
- Keranos, God of Storms
- Animar, Soul of Elements
- Ezuri, Claw of Progress
Pretty happy seeing Toshiro and Isamaru get in there.
- 2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
- Isamaru, Hound of Konda
- Toshiro Umezawa
- Maelstrom Wanderer
- Feldon of the Third Path
- Keranos, God of Storms
- Animar, Soul of Elements
- Ezuri, Claw of Progress
Pretty happy seeing Toshiro and Isamaru get in there.
Very curious to see what the Toshiro and Isamaru Lists look like.
Can't wait to see the website up. This format looks really great to play. I'm already looking for alternatives for some of the legacy cards in my current commander decks.
- 2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
- Isamaru, Hound of Konda
- Toshiro Umezawa
- Maelstrom Wanderer
- Feldon of the Third Path
- Keranos, God of Storms
- Animar, Soul of Elements
- Ezuri, Claw of Progress
Pretty happy seeing Toshiro and Isamaru get in there.
Very curious to see what the Toshiro and Isamaru Lists look like.
Can't wait to see the website up. This format looks really great to play. I'm already looking for alternatives for some of the legacy cards in my current commander decks.
The Isamaru list was a very casual build TBH, but having lost from simple pressure from it while I attempted to combo (I was thwarted going infinite mike/trike off a surprise reanimation at 1 life), it's kinda what I want to see. It was a deck that could easily be improved upon, but because of combat pressure and my decision to forego control options to go the combo route that round, I was defeated. The Toshiro deck is one I need to look into but is played by a noted pro player and lvl 2 judge on a mission to put every "seemingly bad" commander on a top 4. The other 2 decks were your very much legacy EDH conversions to modern and it's nice to see that they can play in the same game and work.
We still have players going [XXX decklist] will break this format and I challenge them to please do it. So far even the strongest decks seem to be kept in check when player focus properly and an actual game takes place.
We'll be holding off bans for a bit, outside of meta emergencies, to let the format play out. But right now there is a concern over diversity and certain volatility. Overall the format is playing well and I think the issues are very manageable. The ideas over what to ban and unban will be more obvious the longer the format plays out, but right now I need to address a few trends for the sake of diversity in its early life.
Here's another tournament update. As I'm sure between the 3 ran you maaaaay notice a commonality between them as a hint as to what changes may be coming:
Decks entered:
- 2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
- Maelstrom Wanderer
- The Mimeoplasm
- Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
- Ezuri, Claw of Progress
- Progenitus
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Iroas, God of Victory
- Arjun, the Shifting Flame
- Purphoros, God of the Forge
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Triad of Fates
- Kaalia of the Vast
- Prophet of Kruphix
- Trade Secrets
- Tooth and Nail
This will set the formats rules for its official launch, which will be when we post the site.
- Prophet of Kruphix
- Trade Secrets
- Tooth and Nail
- Protean Hulk
- Sol Ring
The previous post was what was new if that lead to confusion. Ultimately I put them in the same category, but we felt Protean was easier to abuse being a creature and how accessible reanimation was with that card type, thus it was an immediate ban going in. TaN was always on the fence and admittedly I ban it with reluctance, but feel this is for the best.
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[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
I run it in my deck..never really got to abuse it persay, but ive seen people copy/clone them through various ways. Not enough to guarantee a win though
- 2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
- Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
- Marchesa, the Black Rose
- Phenax, God of Deception
Right now it's still a little early to say this will be how it plays out. It's a small test pool of players and many decks are modified versions of classic EDH builds, so the intent to embrace newer build styles hasn't been fully realized. Ideally I'm striving for the 9-11 turns type of game play, even in the most degenerate build attempts, and hope to see a broader spectrum of archetypes. Aggro/voltron simply hasn't been run enough to see if it's viable, but the purphoros deck has showcased red has really strong capabilities of dealing 90 damage in this slower game play. The current mix is established EDH comp players, a few pro constructed players, and fresh out the gate casuals...so I got a healthy diversity to observe and see how this format plays for other player types.
Also...omg it's Sheldon!
Are commanders from pre-Modern blocks also restricted? I notice a pretty hefty bias towards pre-con commanders from your events.
I'm also curious if the games are so slow (remember, Sheldon says EDH should be a turn 10 format when it isn't competitive and your competitive version with a Modern pool is right in that range) because there just aren't enough powerful cards to full flesh out a deck. I guess what I am trying to ask is if the limited card pool stifles the power of a deck by narrowing options? I guess what I'd also like to know is what the average game length is for duel commander games as well to compare.
Looking through my decks, it seems to be mostly sac outlets and tutors that I would be losing, which hurts deck speed in a big way; something I'm not sure is great in a singleton format. I'd rather have tutors and whatnot as opposed to partial paris mulls(especially not free partials, just because I really disagree with the concept of them).
I'm interested in how good Narset is in this format as well.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
It's slow because we're losing a lot of the broken mana accel and under costed effects. As well the reduction of tutors puts more emphasis on card draw and the more costly tutors with more mid game impact (like Wargate). The slight decrease in speed along with Partial Paris allows players to have enough time to play around/answer problems. In Classic EDH you can ramp and win before anyone can get set up and they're completely at the luck of having the right answers at a quick enough pace. The decks still feel very powerful, but that turn or two delay against sculpted hands makes it very hard to race for the win uncontested. Basically people get enough chance to play without being blown out in competitive play and that's what I wanted. I have always been a major advocate of Partial Paris because of the underlying skill factor it presents. The issue in normal EDH is that cards are so OP, greedily sculpting to combo out is sometimes too powerful...but when you curb that speed and remove some of the cheaper 2 card infinites, sculpted hands become great defensive opportunities that make singleton function better. Remember, many cards don't have similar effect card redundancy and some decks like versatility in a list. Overall Vancouver presents too high of a luck factor and we'd rather games be influenced more by played choices and part of that is giving them the ability to have strong hands. The idea that 3 people should be able to stop a greedy hand at this speed is very important to how the games play out.
I'm curious about Narset as well. We have a VERY degenerate one that consistently turn 2-4s in our normal EDH events and I wanna see how it translates here (A deck that is resistant to Vancouver Mulligan, but struggled against my Derevi hate bear stax when Partial was in place)
Edit: Memory Jar, Eureka, Wheel of Fortune, and duals are fair enough, but reserved list isn't modern commander's fault.
Casual Commander with all the broken stuff is still fun, but its a casual game. In a tournament scene it can be very frustrating. People do want to win, but to make a 100 card singleton deck that has all this fun interaction yet to lose turn 2-3-4 in a good majority of games isnt fun whatsoever.
This event has the kitchen table feel to it, but also has the competitive excite to it as well. I have been a big fan so far.
I really hope this catches on and relieves pressure on the RC. I know I've been a major critic in the past, but I see more and more what they want out of the format and my goal is coexistence as that casual tabletop is a great thing they've put together. I simply want to help players find games they want and having separate sub formats helps with that as event/tournament style play has always been a very tough task.
Planechase and Archenemy were left out for a few reasons. Mainly it's to not over complicate the list of legal sets as players already struggle with what's listed. The other reason is consideration of cards we gain by adding them and I didn't feel they really added in a constructive way to the format. Conspiracy simply had too many cards that were useful for the format and caters to multiplayer.
This weeks turn out:
- 2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
- Isamaru, Hound of Konda
- Toshiro Umezawa
- Maelstrom Wanderer
- Feldon of the Third Path
- Keranos, God of Storms
- Animar, Soul of Elements
- Ezuri, Claw of Progress
Pretty happy seeing Toshiro and Isamaru get in there.
Very curious to see what the Toshiro and Isamaru Lists look like.
Can't wait to see the website up. This format looks really great to play. I'm already looking for alternatives for some of the legacy cards in my current commander decks.
We still have players going [XXX decklist] will break this format and I challenge them to please do it. So far even the strongest decks seem to be kept in check when player focus properly and an actual game takes place.