They haven't given me any reason to suspect that they are intentionally misleading us with their announcements, so I don't actually think MTGO had anything to do with it.
Sorry I meant the part about tuck being in consideration when Banned as a Commander was being considered.
I know my casual playgroup will not be abiding by this change, pretty simple really. As for when I play competitively, Animar just got a lot better, Flamekin Harbinger is likely to come out though.
This is a bad change for competitive commander. Oh well, I lost faith in the RC when they took Braids, Cabal Minion away from my Karador deck. They cater far too much to people who don't want to try to win a game of Magic through an understanding of the rules.
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I know my casual playgroup will not be abiding by this change, pretty simple really. As for when I play competitively, Animar just got a lot better, Flamekin Harbinger is likely to come out though.
This is a bad change for competitive commander. Oh well, I lost faith in the RC when they took Braids, Cabal Minion away from my Karador deck. They cater far too much to people who don't want to try to win a game of Magic through an understanding of the rules.
I know my casual playgroup will not be abiding by this change, pretty simple really. As for when I play competitively, Animar just got a lot better, Flamekin Harbinger is likely to come out though.
This is a bad change for competitive commander. Oh well, I lost faith in the RC when they took Braids, Cabal Minion away from my Karador deck. They cater far too much to people who don't want to try to win a game of Magic through an understanding of the rules.
Are you intentionally trying to get a rise from others, or do you not actually understand the intent of the format? The Rules Committee does not design its ban list for competitive play and balance. They say it right on their site.
Did you also lose faith in Wizards for catering to people when they removed damage from the stack, mana burn, the legend rule, etc.?
Did you also lose faith in Wizards for catering to people when they removed damage from the stack, mana burn, the legend rule, etc.?
Yes. Damage on the stack was a big one for me, it made combat more interesting especially since they are promoting this as the main strategy by printing ever more powerful creatures with spells attached. I understand that it's a business decision to make the game easier to learn, but less complexity = less fun. All these minor changes aren't enough to make me want to quit playing, but they are starting to add up. EDH was pretty much the only format I was playing, and these last few changes make me want to play it less than the already infrequent amount I was playing. I guess the idea of resource management is too complicated for people to grasp, much less the stack. So I'll just stick to cube where I can ignore all the terrible things Wotc and the RC are doing to this game. Oh yeah, and every card frame update looks worse than the last, especially with the stupid foil stamp that looks like it's only purpose is so they can intentionally misprint cards without it.
I know my casual playgroup will not be abiding by this change, pretty simple really. As for when I play competitively, Animar just got a lot better, Flamekin Harbinger is likely to come out though.
This is a bad change for competitive commander. Oh well, I lost faith in the RC when they took Braids, Cabal Minion away from my Karador deck. They cater far too much to people who don't want to try to win a game of Magic through an understanding of the rules.
Are you intentionally trying to get a rise from others, or do you not actually understand the intent of the format? The Rules Committee does not design its ban list for competitive play and balance. They say it right on their site.
Did you also lose faith in Wizards for catering to people when they removed damage from the stack, mana burn, the legend rule, etc.?
Th RC says that, but look at the cards they've banned outside of the legacy list. They were banned due to competitive players. It's the more competitive players breaking cards that leads them to ban things. Even if they say they aren't catering to competitive, they are driven by it.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
The Rules Committee does not design its ban list for competitive play and balance. They say it right on their site.
Where? Also I think that when people use the word "competitive" they are using it in two ways.
Competitive - To compete against other people with winning as the biggest in-game goal.
Competitive - Playing in a structured competition or tournament.
Pretty sure the RC is talking about #2 while most of the people here are talking #1 when looking at Braids being banned.
Th RC says that, but look at the cards they've banned outside of the legacy list. They were banned due to competitive players. It's the more competitive players breaking cards that leads them to ban things. Even if they say they aren't catering to competitive, they are driven by it.
Where? Also I think that when people use the word "competitive" they are using it in two ways.
Competitive - To compete against other people with winning as the biggest in-game goal.
Competitive - Playing in a structured competition or tournament.
Pretty sure the RC is talking about #2 while most of the people here are talking #1 when looking at Braids being banned.
Disagree. Sure, there are some relics of a past time when the RC was trying to distinguish itself from Vintage, but look at the stuff they ban now. Sylvan Primordial? Primeval Titan? Moxnix and his buddies would laugh at the idea of seeing those cards at their tables. Competitive players that want to break cards aren't going to look towards 6+ cmc creatures unless they will end the game.
I was going to expand on this a little bit more, but then I realized we're not in the ban list thread so I'll let it drop.
Well now you can run Talrand, Sky Summoner and go zero creatures with ease. The biggest problem with him is that you don't want too many non-instant/sorcery stuff. Then your whole day gets ruined if he gets tucked. With this new rule Talrand becomes a lot stronger. In that aspect it I sorta like it since it promotes more commander-centric strategies. However I do see the dilemma when it comes to more overpowered crap like Wanderer and Uril.
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Well now you can run Talrand, Sky Summoner and go zero creatures with ease. The biggest problem with him is that you don't want too many non-instant/sorcery stuff. Then your whole day gets ruined if he gets tucked. With this new rule Talrand becomes a lot stronger. In that aspect it I sorta like it since it promotes more commander-centric strategies. However I do see the dilemma when it comes to more overpowered crap like Wanderer and Uril.
I thought people were already running zero creature lists to abuse Proteus Staff.
Th RC says that, but look at the cards they've banned outside of the legacy list. They were banned due to competitive players. It's the more competitive players breaking cards that leads them to ban things. Even if they say they aren't catering to competitive, they are driven by it.
Where? Also I think that when people use the word "competitive" they are using it in two ways.
Competitive - To compete against other people with winning as the biggest in-game goal.
Competitive - Playing in a structured competition or tournament.
Pretty sure the RC is talking about #2 while most of the people here are talking #1 when looking at Braids being banned.
Disagree. Sure, there are some relics of a past time when the RC was trying to distinguish itself from Vintage, but look at the stuff they ban now. Sylvan Primordial? Primeval Titan? Moxnix and his buddies would laugh at the idea of seeing those cards at their tables. Competitive players that want to break cards aren't going to look towards 6+ cmc creatures unless they will end the game.
I was going to expand on this a little bit more, but then I realized we're not in the ban list thread so I'll let it drop.
Competitive =\= ends the game. Painters servant alone doesn't end the game either, right?
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
Won't change how my meta plays. However, we've house-ruled right from the beginning, so we evaluate the RC....not the other way around.
For example,
- They're called Generals. Not Commanders.
- We don't play with General Damage.
- Playing with the intent of infinite life is banned. (1000...sure. 100000000...too much)
- Poison is still at 10 counters.
- We have accepted the Clone changes (blue needed a nurf).
- We won't be accepting these new Tuck rules.
Nope. That's a common houserule (and a completely misguided one, based on a lack of understanding of how poison/infect cards actually function in a multiplayer environment) but not at all an official thing.
overall i think this is a very bad change. my "hard to pronounce or spell, the blight dragon" deck is by far my best deck and im almost always willing to tell anyone its better than whatever commander they can challenge me with, and usually if they arent holding a force of will or turn one condemn they die immediately, now its even worse for them. from the point of view of piloting my other half dozen or so commander decks i find this very scary as tuck spells are not only the most powerful spells to kill commanders but also the most mana efficient removal available in some cases. i mean, id like to just run foor stp in my deck but the whole one slice thing says oust and comdemn have to be there just to fill out the numbers i want. the other unfortunate thing is this discourages running terminus or the 5drop version which are currently my most efficient boardwipes for dealing with indestructible crap.
im also perplexed by the to hand rules change. so now my tuck spells dont work and i cant even rely on a boomerang combined with a timetwister to get rid of that annoying commander?
I played a few games today with my regular group and we ignored the rule. We had a little discussion about it. We don't like the change and find the logic given for it to be dubious. To go a little further, I feel that the RC's reasoning insults my intelligence.
Further, I'm a little sick of the assumption that only ultra-competitive Spikes will miss tucking. This is a big, stupid, obnoxious straw man. I don't like tuck, but I do believe there are plenty of cogent arguments to be made in its favor without resorting to flimsy fallacies.
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Played three games so far with the new rule change; lack of tuck actually made a difference in one of them. I was holding Unexpectedly Absent against the Kruphix player, who comboed off before we were able to kill him. It's a small sample size but it's so far confirming this will be more significant than the Legend Rule change. Nonetheless, except for the Kruphix player obnoxiously not having to hold out UU against tuck spells, things obviously won't be that different.
White and red already had those interactions, though. Taking away options can provide clarity to a strategy but it's not the same as creating new space.
Did you end up casting the UA? Because even if it doesn't get him permanently gone, it'll still work to get him off the board, and if it's well timed, he could lose all that pretty mana he had stored up.
Did you end up casting the UA? Because even if it doesn't get him permanently gone, it'll still work to get him off the board, and if it's well timed, he could lose all that pretty mana he had stored up.
Unfortunately we also had to kill his mana engine or he would have been back out with plenty of mana in no time. So I held UA saying I'd use it on his Darksteel Forge, then someone can kneecap the Doubling Cube combo, THEN hopefully someone could Boomerang him or something. Alas, not quick enough.
Do any of you think that WotC will look for a different way of dealing with problematic commanders? Like if this removal/counter removes/counters target commander increase it's commander tax by X.
It is possible in my opinion because they want to increase the sales of their commander product and having something that can deal with problematic commanders is a unique selling point.
They have been dabbling in design space that is solely about the commander since they made the first precons, so I think it is only a matter of time. They will have to tread lightly but we'll probably see something to lower or increase the command tax eventually.
Sorry I meant the part about tuck being in consideration when Banned as a Commander was being considered.
This is a bad change for competitive commander. Oh well, I lost faith in the RC when they took Braids, Cabal Minion away from my Karador deck. They cater far too much to people who don't want to try to win a game of Magic through an understanding of the rules.
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I don't know... Fetching Maelstrom Wanderer and Soul of the Harvest seems pretty good.
Are you intentionally trying to get a rise from others, or do you not actually understand the intent of the format? The Rules Committee does not design its ban list for competitive play and balance. They say it right on their site.
Did you also lose faith in Wizards for catering to people when they removed damage from the stack, mana burn, the legend rule, etc.?
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Yes. Damage on the stack was a big one for me, it made combat more interesting especially since they are promoting this as the main strategy by printing ever more powerful creatures with spells attached. I understand that it's a business decision to make the game easier to learn, but less complexity = less fun. All these minor changes aren't enough to make me want to quit playing, but they are starting to add up. EDH was pretty much the only format I was playing, and these last few changes make me want to play it less than the already infrequent amount I was playing. I guess the idea of resource management is too complicated for people to grasp, much less the stack. So I'll just stick to cube where I can ignore all the terrible things Wotc and the RC are doing to this game. Oh yeah, and every card frame update looks worse than the last, especially with the stupid foil stamp that looks like it's only purpose is so they can intentionally misprint cards without it.
In search of a foil french Dromar, the Banisher, pm me if you have one you want to part with, also foil Stratadon's.
Th RC says that, but look at the cards they've banned outside of the legacy list. They were banned due to competitive players. It's the more competitive players breaking cards that leads them to ban things. Even if they say they aren't catering to competitive, they are driven by it.
Competitive - To compete against other people with winning as the biggest in-game goal.
Competitive - Playing in a structured competition or tournament.
Pretty sure the RC is talking about #2 while most of the people here are talking #1 when looking at Braids being banned.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Disagree. Sure, there are some relics of a past time when the RC was trying to distinguish itself from Vintage, but look at the stuff they ban now. Sylvan Primordial? Primeval Titan? Moxnix and his buddies would laugh at the idea of seeing those cards at their tables. Competitive players that want to break cards aren't going to look towards 6+ cmc creatures unless they will end the game.
I was going to expand on this a little bit more, but then I realized we're not in the ban list thread so I'll let it drop.
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Yeah, that's general ban list stuff, but can you at least tell me where the Commander site says that they are not for competitive people.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I didn't say EDH isn't for competitive people, I said that the ban list isn't designed for competitive balance. Read the first line:
http://forum.mtgcommander.net/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12254
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
I thought people were already running zero creature lists to abuse Proteus Staff.
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Competitive =\= ends the game. Painters servant alone doesn't end the game either, right?
Canb we please take the discussion back to tuck, and not the ban list?
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Won't change how my meta plays. However, we've house-ruled right from the beginning, so we evaluate the RC....not the other way around.
For example,
- They're called Generals. Not Commanders.
- We don't play with General Damage.
- Playing with the intent of infinite life is banned. (1000...sure. 100000000...too much)
- Poison is still at 10 counters.
- We have accepted the Clone changes (blue needed a nurf).
- We won't be accepting these new Tuck rules.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
That's not a house rule, it's the official rule. 10 poison counters puts a player out of the game in EDH as in any other format.
my bad.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
Nope. That's a common houserule (and a completely misguided one, based on a lack of understanding of how poison/infect cards actually function in a multiplayer environment) but not at all an official thing.
im also perplexed by the to hand rules change. so now my tuck spells dont work and i cant even rely on a boomerang combined with a timetwister to get rid of that annoying commander?
Further, I'm a little sick of the assumption that only ultra-competitive Spikes will miss tucking. This is a big, stupid, obnoxious straw man. I don't like tuck, but I do believe there are plenty of cogent arguments to be made in its favor without resorting to flimsy fallacies.
My 720 Peasant Cube
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Unfortunately we also had to kill his mana engine or he would have been back out with plenty of mana in no time. So I held UA saying I'd use it on his Darksteel Forge, then someone can kneecap the Doubling Cube combo, THEN hopefully someone could Boomerang him or something. Alas, not quick enough.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
They have been dabbling in design space that is solely about the commander since they made the first precons, so I think it is only a matter of time. They will have to tread lightly but we'll probably see something to lower or increase the command tax eventually.
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