If you cast Kolaghan the Storm's Fury or Zurgo Bellstriker by paying their dash costs (plus any commander taxes, if applicable), at end of turn, you can choose whether to put them in your hand or the command zone.
Can anyone access the site? It seems this rules change has blown up the EDH forum. Could someone summarize the change as I would like to comment but I'd like to know what has actually happened first.
This change makes me very sad. This takes some of my best answers and throws them away while giving me supbar answers like the ones already mentioned. I'm not a big fan of these changes at all.
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Can anyone access the site? It seems this rules change has blown up the EDH forum. Could someone summarize the change as I would like to comment but I'd like to know what has actually happened first.
If a commander would be put into a player's hand or library, they can put it back in the command zone instead.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Can anyone access the site? It seems this rules change has blown up the EDH forum. Could someone summarize the change as I would like to comment but I'd like to know what has actually happened first.
When you tuck a commander (put it somewhere in the library), the recipient of the tucking action may choose to put their commander into the command zone instead of being tucked.
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Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Love this change, time to make a white/red or boros deck.
A deck that just lost some of it's best and most efficient answers to things that are really hard to shut down.
Sure, but now they can hope to see their own commander again. Boros colors had very few ways to get their commander back if it got tucked. This opens up a lot commanders themed decks in boros and just in general. You can now build a deck fulling around the commander. I think this is great.
Can anyone access the site? It seems this rules change has blown up the EDH forum. Could someone summarize the change as I would like to comment but I'd like to know what has actually happened first.
Took me a few tries to access. Basically, the commander being returned to hand or library is no longer excluded from the replacement effect that lets you instead send it to the command zone on death/exile.
We lose Tucking which was the most conventional way to deal a problem commander but we still maintain the ability to turn them into a tree, arrest them, neuter them, ect. We can still deal with them. This change helps voltron decks out so that instead of someone tucking your commander and you sitting there twitting your thumbs until you draw/tutor them up you can now continue on for 2 more mana. The Commander tax still applies to putting them to hand or deck as it moves them to the command zone.
Sure, card such as spell crumple and hinder and chaos warp seem useless now but they really aren't. Flashback spells are still a thing along with card that have effects in the graveyard making spell crumple and hinder still decent. chaos warp still is reds best spell to deal with enchantments. these cards aren't dead. This rule change didn't kill the format it enabled it, voltron can come back as a more powerful archtype which is combos worst enemy, which also gets helped by the removal of tuck.
In the words of my Mother: "don't knock it until you try it"
Sure, card such as spell crumple and hinder and chaos warp seem useless now but they really aren't. Flashback spells are still a thing along with card that have effects in the graveyard making spell crumple and hinder still decent.
Spell Crumple and Hinder are going to be replaced by Dissipate and Faerie Trickery or non-counter methods of dealing with spells. The first two have always been slightly worse at dealing with problematic spell, because the exile zone is the deadest you can make a card, but they've been significantly better at dealing with generals. Now there really isn't any reason to run them over the latter two unless you really like to overload on 3 cmc counterspells.
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Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
We lose Tucking which was the most conventional way to deal a problem commander but we still maintain the ability to turn them into a tree, arrest them, neuter them, ect. We can still deal with them. This change helps voltron decks out so that instead of someone tucking your commander and you sitting there twitting your thumbs until you draw/tutor them up you can now continue on for 2 more mana. The Commander tax still applies to putting them to hand or deck as it moves them to the command zone.
Sure, card such as spell crumple and hinder and chaos warp seem useless now but they really aren't. Flashback spells are still a thing along with card that have effects in the graveyard making spell crumple and hinder still decent. chaos warp still is reds best spell to deal with enchantments. these cards aren't dead. This rule change didn't kill the format it enabled it, voltron can come back as a more powerful archtype which is combos worst enemy, which also gets helped by the removal of tuck.
In the words of my Mother: "don't knock it until you try it"
The cards you mentioned as solutions to combo commanders mostly don't work against degenerate commanders with ETB abilities.
They do catch some commanders, they just miss many others.
Edit: Hinder remains good - you can still use it in Memory Lapse mode on an irrelevant spell when you are winning and don't want the opponent drawing an answer. 'Yep, you are drawing that Bird of Paradise again next turn.' Spell Crumple loses out a lot more.
With this asinine change, <I think the RC has proven that they are completely inept when it comes the the stewardship of this format>. Plenty of staples like Chaos Warp and Oblation are almost useless now. Degenerate commanders lose a crucial but important weakness. Losing perfectly valid lines of play because of the wrongheaded thinking of a small, clearly out-of-touch few...that just makes me upset.
First, the "Banned as a Commander" stipulation was apparently too hard for us to wrap our itty bitty pea-sized brains around, so they got rid of that for us. Gee, thanks guys. You know what, make all the commanders uncounterable, then give them indestructible and hexproof. That makes for better Magic, right?
The RC have come up with some head-scratching bans and unbans, but I've always stuck up for them because I thought they had the format's best interest at heart, and, frankly, the requisite competence to make such decisions. Such is no longer the case. Tucking, and to a lesser extent bouncing, was part of a system of checks and balances keeping degenerate commanders from running away with the game. That balance has likely been shattered, and will lead to more broken commanders leading broken decks and/or a slew of new bannings, because those are always good.
P.S. I'm not really into doomsaying typically, but this change got me fired up.
We lose Tucking which was the most conventional way to deal a problem commander but we still maintain the ability to turn them into a tree, arrest them, neuter them, ect. We can still deal with them. This change helps voltron decks out so that instead of someone tucking your commander and you sitting there twitting your thumbs until you draw/tutor them up you can now continue on for 2 more mana. The Commander tax still applies to putting them to hand or deck as it moves them to the command zone.
Sure, card such as spell crumple and hinder and chaos warp seem useless now but they really aren't. Flashback spells are still a thing along with card that have effects in the graveyard making spell crumple and hinder still decent. chaos warp still is reds best spell to deal with enchantments. these cards aren't dead. This rule change didn't kill the format it enabled it, voltron can come back as a more powerful archtype which is combos worst enemy, which also gets helped by the removal of tuck.
In the words of my Mother: "don't knock it until you try it"
The cards you mentioned as solutions to combo commanders mostly don't work against degenerate commanders with ETB abilities.
They do catch some commanders, they just miss many others.
Edit: Hinder remains good - you can still use it in Memory Lapse mode on an irrelevant spell when you are winning and don't want the opponent drawing an answer. 'Yep, you are drawing that Bird of Paradise again next turn.' Spell Crumple loses out a lot more.
sorry I didn't type it for ever single commander.. for ETBs: torpor orb and friends still are a thing.
I can't access the forums, but if a general is put into the command zone instead of being tucked, does that increase the general tax like if it died, or does it just go back there and the tax stays the same as what it was before? It's not a big deal either way, since I imagine that relatively few tuck spells will still see heavy play after this (Chaos Warp excepted, perhaps), but I'm curious.
I think this is a great change that is in keeping with Commander as a social format. I've never played a game of commander where someone's general got tucked and we were like "Yeeeeah, that's awesome!" Even busted commanders, the reason most people get attached to decks is the commander and the interactions, and it sucks to see that get taken away.
I do think there'll need to be a lot more attention to the banlist paid, as many commanders are frigging out of hand without the ability to tuck them - Maelstrom Wanderer is problem #1 imho, as he often just wants to get back in the CZ.
Can anyone access the site? It seems this rules change has blown up the EDH forum. Could someone summarize the change as I would like to comment but I'd like to know what has actually happened first.
From a card perspective, I will still play Chaos Warp since it's great removal in red. Hinder and Crumple go back in the box for more efficient counterspells. Spin into Myth will be more counterspell.
sorry I didn't type it for ever single commander.. for ETBs: torpor orb and friends still are a thing.
I agree solutions likely exist for every commander, but we are starting to talk cards that are generally unplayable here.
Torpor Orb is quite literally a blank card against many decks (unlike Pithing Needle which pretty much always has a target even if not a great one), and it is worse than a blank if you have ETBs yourself.
Modern has answer cards like Stony Silence yet still bans some cards from Affinity because you don't always see Stony Silence and even if you do it's not always enough if the opponent has a multiple Disciple of the Vault draw. Powerful answer cards are harder to find in Commander than in Modern.
i don't understand all this "chaos warp and oblation are useless" talk.
The cards are still excellent removal - they're just not super powerful against commanders. You can still remove the permanent from the battlefield just as before. The name of the game is Commander. You should be able to play with that one card throughout the whole game. Now they've fixed the rules so it can happen.
Remember when Phantasmal Image read 1U destroy target commander? It can't do that anymore, but people still play the card and it works just fine.
Same thing happening here - now there are no messy 'oh but' rules when explaining what happens when a commander leaves the battlefield.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
Well, I've got some cuts to make. I'm honestly pretty shocked, considering that every red deck from Alabama to Zimbabwe runs Chaos Warp as one of their definitive answers to problematic cards. I guess I'm going to have to dig around to find some better counterspells.
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"When does a man die? When he is hit by a bullet? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!" Currently Piloting: EDH BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer) WBRKaalia of The Vast URGRiku of Two Reflections WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius UBRamirez DePietro GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
I can't access the forums, but if a general is put into the command zone instead of being tucked, does that increase the general tax like if it died, or does it just go back there and the tax stays the same as what it was before? It's not a big deal either way, since I imagine that relatively few tuck spells will still see heavy play after this (Chaos Warp excepted, perhaps), but I'm curious.
The commander tax has never had anything to do with how many times the commander is removed. It has to do with how many times you have cast it from the command zone. So sending it there instead of tucking it is exactly the same as sending it there instead of it dying.
Does anyone know why they included bouncing in this rules change? Considering the tax induced if it goes back to the command zone, I can't imagine any situation where I would prefer my commander there rather than my hand where I can cast it for its original cost.
sorry I didn't type it for ever single commander.. for ETBs: torpor orb and friends still are a thing.
I agree solutions likely exist for every commander, but we are starting to talk cards that are generally unplayable here.
Torpor Orb is quite literally a blank card against many decks (unlike Pithing Needle which pretty much always has a target even if not a great one), and it is worse than a blank if you have ETBs yourself.
Modern has answer cards like Stony Silence yet still bans some cards from Affinity because you don't always see Stony Silence and even if you do it's not always enough if the opponent has a multiple Disciple of the Vault draw. Powerful answer cards are harder to find in Commander than in Modern.
I have more to say on this but its off topic which doesn't need to happen but my main point was its not the end of the world with the rule change. we can still deal with commanders , problems or not.
Ixidron can hose the cap out of commanders
Bounce effects can be frustrating to play against also torper orb/Griffen and pithing needle blue hasent been hosed that bad since it can fetch those artifacts better than any other color
From a rules perspective, this change is nice, since it reduces the number of differences between EDH and regular Magic. From every other perspective, I disagree with this banning.
1. Yes, people might get upset when their commander is tucked, but that primarily punishes people for relying too much on a single card.
2. I personally don't run extra tutors just to deal with tuck effects. But if people want to spend tutors finding their commanders, I don't see any problem with it, because there are generally much better cards they could be finding instead (like Tooth and Nail or Hermit Druid).
3. Tuck effects are still good in the format, anyway, since there's so much graveyard recursion. Green and Red both have access to at least one tuck effect (though in Green's case, it's only for 'walker-commanders), and those cards are still format staples.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
If a commander would be put into a player's hand or library, they can put it back in the command zone instead.
When you tuck a commander (put it somewhere in the library), the recipient of the tucking action may choose to put their commander into the command zone instead of being tucked.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Sure, but now they can hope to see their own commander again. Boros colors had very few ways to get their commander back if it got tucked. This opens up a lot commanders themed decks in boros and just in general. You can now build a deck fulling around the commander. I think this is great.
Took me a few tries to access. Basically, the commander being returned to hand or library is no longer excluded from the replacement effect that lets you instead send it to the command zone on death/exile.
We lose Tucking which was the most conventional way to deal a problem commander but we still maintain the ability to turn them into a tree, arrest them, neuter them, ect. We can still deal with them. This change helps voltron decks out so that instead of someone tucking your commander and you sitting there twitting your thumbs until you draw/tutor them up you can now continue on for 2 more mana. The Commander tax still applies to putting them to hand or deck as it moves them to the command zone.
Sure, card such as spell crumple and hinder and chaos warp seem useless now but they really aren't. Flashback spells are still a thing along with card that have effects in the graveyard making spell crumple and hinder still decent. chaos warp still is reds best spell to deal with enchantments. these cards aren't dead. This rule change didn't kill the format it enabled it, voltron can come back as a more powerful archtype which is combos worst enemy, which also gets helped by the removal of tuck.
In the words of my Mother: "don't knock it until you try it"
Spell Crumple and Hinder are going to be replaced by Dissipate and Faerie Trickery or non-counter methods of dealing with spells. The first two have always been slightly worse at dealing with problematic spell, because the exile zone is the deadest you can make a card, but they've been significantly better at dealing with generals. Now there really isn't any reason to run them over the latter two unless you really like to overload on 3 cmc counterspells.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
The cards you mentioned as solutions to combo commanders mostly don't work against degenerate commanders with ETB abilities.
They do catch some commanders, they just miss many others.
Edit: Hinder remains good - you can still use it in Memory Lapse mode on an irrelevant spell when you are winning and don't want the opponent drawing an answer. 'Yep, you are drawing that Bird of Paradise again next turn.' Spell Crumple loses out a lot more.
First, the "Banned as a Commander" stipulation was apparently too hard for us to wrap our itty bitty pea-sized brains around, so they got rid of that for us. Gee, thanks guys. You know what, make all the commanders uncounterable, then give them indestructible and hexproof. That makes for better Magic, right?
The RC have come up with some head-scratching bans and unbans, but I've always stuck up for them because I thought they had the format's best interest at heart, and, frankly, the requisite competence to make such decisions. Such is no longer the case. Tucking, and to a lesser extent bouncing, was part of a system of checks and balances keeping degenerate commanders from running away with the game. That balance has likely been shattered, and will lead to more broken commanders leading broken decks and/or a slew of new bannings, because those are always good.
P.S. I'm not really into doomsaying typically, but this change got me fired up.
My 720 Peasant Cube
sorry I didn't type it for ever single commander.. for ETBs: torpor orb and friends still are a thing.
I do think there'll need to be a lot more attention to the banlist paid, as many commanders are frigging out of hand without the ability to tuck them - Maelstrom Wanderer is problem #1 imho, as he often just wants to get back in the CZ.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I quoted the announcement. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/601117-multiplayer-ban-list-announcement-march-23-2015
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I agree solutions likely exist for every commander, but we are starting to talk cards that are generally unplayable here.
Torpor Orb is quite literally a blank card against many decks (unlike Pithing Needle which pretty much always has a target even if not a great one), and it is worse than a blank if you have ETBs yourself.
Modern has answer cards like Stony Silence yet still bans some cards from Affinity because you don't always see Stony Silence and even if you do it's not always enough if the opponent has a multiple Disciple of the Vault draw. Powerful answer cards are harder to find in Commander than in Modern.
The cards are still excellent removal - they're just not super powerful against commanders. You can still remove the permanent from the battlefield just as before. The name of the game is Commander. You should be able to play with that one card throughout the whole game. Now they've fixed the rules so it can happen.
Remember when Phantasmal Image read 1U destroy target commander? It can't do that anymore, but people still play the card and it works just fine.
Same thing happening here - now there are no messy 'oh but' rules when explaining what happens when a commander leaves the battlefield.
Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
Does anyone know why they included bouncing in this rules change? Considering the tax induced if it goes back to the command zone, I can't imagine any situation where I would prefer my commander there rather than my hand where I can cast it for its original cost.
My 720 Peasant Cube
I have more to say on this but its off topic which doesn't need to happen but my main point was its not the end of the world with the rule change. we can still deal with commanders , problems or not.
Bounce effects can be frustrating to play against also torper orb/Griffen and pithing needle blue hasent been hosed that bad since it can fetch those artifacts better than any other color
1. Yes, people might get upset when their commander is tucked, but that primarily punishes people for relying too much on a single card.
2. I personally don't run extra tutors just to deal with tuck effects. But if people want to spend tutors finding their commanders, I don't see any problem with it, because there are generally much better cards they could be finding instead (like Tooth and Nail or Hermit Druid).
3. Tuck effects are still good in the format, anyway, since there's so much graveyard recursion. Green and Red both have access to at least one tuck effect (though in Green's case, it's only for 'walker-commanders), and those cards are still format staples.
tl;dr I don't like it.