As far as I know, cards like Chromanticore and the Nephilims are already permitted as generals in local game shops, which under the rules of the site it'd be completely wrong.
If EDH is a Wizards-sanctioned format with tournaments, that would be different. As it is, I will go with the old rules at my shop. No general-tucking? As if.
My issue is that blue cards apparently don't get tested to ensure that they won't be broken before they get released. My issue is that every ban is either a blue card or specifically mentions something that blue can do. My issue is that I can buy green, red, white, and black and not have to worry about whether my deck will be banned before I can drive to the card shop. Blue? Who knows! If you take all the banlists of all the formats, the majority of those are blue.
My problem is that they keep trying to micromanage the game by banning cards until we'll all be stuck with Grizzly Bears because everything else is too good. Well, then, how about making sure not to print problem cards that will have to be banned in the first place, huh? You know, do the quality control on the front end instead of the back end? BEFORE we spent our money to buy them?
Dude I promise there isn't some WOTC conspiracy to make you feel bad about buying treasure cruise. (It's like a fifteen cent card anyway.) Part of making magic is that sometimes they push cards powerwise. They take risks on cool cards because people will get excited about them. This game is made by people, and people aren't perfect. It's true that treasure cruise is broken in a lot of eternal formats. That's just a function of the game being around for so long. You can't reasonably expect every single cool card to be perfectly balanced in every format. In the pie chart of magic cards, the slice of banned cards is so tiny compared to all of the cool cards we can play with. And like, a fifth of that slice of still-legal cards is blue.
Anyway, this particular change wasn't made by WOTC. Also, this change only affects a few cards in a very minor fashion. People are crapping their pants like little babies and crying that the sky is falling about how their cards are worthless now, but you know what? Hinder still hits almost every single card that it used to hit. Go ahead, it feels good to put an enemy Tooth and Nail where Eternal Witness and Regrowth can't touch it.
This is a good change. Tucking is obnoxious. People who run generals that need to be tucked are also obnoxious and you don't have to play with them if all they want to do is be oppressive.
If a general is broken enough to absolutely warrant tuck... maybe, just maybe, the problem might be the general. We're not exactly talking about a huge amount of tuck cards to begin with, I wouldn't hold them as a reasonable answer. As said elsewhere in here, still a lot of ways to deal with generals, just not as permanently.
*shrugs*
Least for my meta, this is good. But I guess I don't see those horrible combo decks everyone is worried about.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
In the case of the grave, blue and red would lose their generals for the game and white effectively would come pretty close to it. Yes, I know there are colorless methods of recursion but those are mostly shuffle black type.
I personally hate this change, which is odd given none of my decks currently run tuck effects. Some Commanders have become a lot stronger now; some removal got nerfed.
It came up with my local playgroup tonight and three were against it, one was for it. For now, we're playing tuck as tuck, and ignoring the rules change.
I don't like the rule changes but I understand. As a Zur player I've abused end of turn tutor into miracle Terminus countless times since the card was printed. The rule change allows decks that need their generals to not get blown out by decks that run Terminus and can tutor for it.
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"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
I don't like the rule changes but I understand. As a Zur player I've abused end of turn tutor into miracle Terminus countless times since the card was printed. The rule change allows decks that need their generals to not get blown out by decks that run Terminus and can tutor for it.
Conversely, we can take responsibility for our experiences and the rule change allows decks that need their generals to not get blown out by decks that run Terminus and can tutor for it to build poorly crafted more one-dimensional linear decks than before.
The ability to tuck commander was a fun little niche answer I enjoyed as soon as I learned about the format in 2007. A commander is hard to deal with because it keeps coming back. With tuck effects, you could answer those pesky commanders. I was not happy when I learned that you could no longer tuck commanders in duels, and now you can't in any form of the game.
I can't tuck commanders outside of my decks with blue or white (I don't play red) and it isn't a HUGE deal, but it makes me sad that they have made this rules change. I also disagreed with the removal of "banned as a commander" because those cards had been proven to be fine in the 99. Strong, but fine. In fact, the very concept of "banned as a commander" is a perfect example of how strong a card it when it can be a commander.
here is an idea... play a better deck. Don't lean on your commander to the point that your deck can't function without it. If you do, be ready to accept the consequences when it is dealt with.
Aside from mono black, i also have an Esper deck that was filled with almost, if not every tuck effect you can use.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I assume majority of playgroups will still do tucks. I thought Sol Ring or Sorin Markov would get banned first. If your opponent is dumb/unaware, or you are a jerk using mindslaver or worst fears, they can still tuck their commander in the library. It is a choice.
Given that WotC talks with RC before making the Commander Precons, I seriously doubt Sol Ring will ever be banned.
Also, for all those saying we can just houserule it back in, that only works in some metas. Mine is made up of players who keep track of rule changes and play by them strictly.
That makes this all the more obscenely stupid, as it's been less than six months since the Commander 2014 decks were released with Oblation and Chaos Warp right there in their respective decks. It really feels like a couple guys on the rules committee built Prossh/Maelstrom Wanderer combo decks, got hated out of every game with tuck effects, and then whined and whined until they changed the rule to shut those two up. People trying to find a new play group are going to have to be very careful if they're not super Spikey, as I anticipate every store now is going to have the guy playing Maralen/Sidisi, Undead Vizier Ad Nauseam combo and running roughshod. How is doing this and then banning the 3-5 generals that are going to be completely degenerate without tuck a better option than just leaving things alone? Haven't multiple writers on Wizards' web site written at length about how much they hate banning things because the goal is always to keep the banlist as short as possible? It's just asinine.
I like a lot of the spirit of the rule change. I like commander-centric decks. I don't like that tuck was so concentrated in 2 colors. But on the other hand, when I sit down and see certain commanders - and yeah, prossh, derevi, and wanderer are at the top of that list - I'm usually focusing on finding some tuck from turn 1 so I can get rid of them before the game spirals out of control. Not having that option is going to make things pretty unpleasant in some games.
If this rule change results in some of the more unpleasant commanders getting banned, then I'm all for it and a bag of chips. I agree with the line of thinking that broken commanders shouldn't be reigned in solely by a mechanic possessed by a few colors. But if there's no banlist change and it just makes the best commanders even more invincible, I'm not thrilled. It is of no small annoyance that some of the brokenest commanders are the ones exclusively made for EDH, which makes them more awkward to ban, just like how sol ring is probably immortal now for its presence in all those precons. Also, I'm pretty sure Hinder is unplayable now. But at least my zirilan deck is happy.
Which pretty much supports my statement. Blue and red's are limited. If white was your point, most of the cards on that list wouldn't be recurring your general outside of some coincidence to match requirements or wouldn't normally be in the deck as stand alone cards. If anything, the hypothetical of no commander zone replacement effect across theboard wpuld only serve to once again narrow the viable general field. Having it for exile and grave helps enable commanders that can die. The ability to tuck and not have the rules change to babysit is part of what keeps down some of the more linear decks on the other end of the spectrum. As tucking is not really permanent nor conditionally permanent removal, I think it contributes to the overall diversity while keeping consistent thinking whereas the change to the rule seems like it would theoretically just stand to empower a certain array of linear and commander centric decks. If the rules committee has a problem with tutor relevance, they should have greater problems with breeding a far more linear and redundant kind of play than any number of tutors provide... not to mention that the decks that stand to benefit the most often play tutors in spades.
To those saying that tuck is not the only answer, I agree. However, linear, general centric decks must respect tucking prior to the change. The fact that they no longer do just gives more incentive to play such decks and play them more aggressively. Just because there are other things doesn't mean we need to nerf tucking. Certainly we didn't make generals immune from control magic effects just because blue is the primary holder of such effects. Certainly we didn't ban enchantments because black and red are much more narrow in their capability to deal with them. Learn to deal with things, people. The player base will adapt as necessary but I only see this causing the exact things that the rules committee was aiming to avoid as opposed to actually stopping them.
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this particular rules change. In less competitive environments I think this change is probably good, as some people like to play with their commanders a lot. In more competitive environs this will be rather problematic, as tuck does deal with combo commanders very nicely. Of course there are still tools to try and deal with many of these problem commanders. Torpor Orb and its ilk still deals with Purphoros, God of the Forge. Arcane Laboratory and Rule of Law do a decent job of dealing with Narset, Enlightened Master and Prossh Food Chain shenanigans. Of course, if people in my meta begin abusing a lot of these sorts of things, I'll simply put stax back together and see how they like that response.
If a general is broken enough to absolutely warrant tuck... maybe, just maybe, the problem might be the general. We're not exactly talking about a huge amount of tuck cards to begin with, I wouldn't hold them as a reasonable answer. As said elsewhere in here, still a lot of ways to deal with generals, just not as permanently.
*shrugs*
Least for my meta, this is good. But I guess I don't see those horrible combo decks everyone is worried about.
I feel like the issue is much less "OMG THESE GENERALS ARE GOING TO BE UN-STOPPABLE!!!" (okay some are saying that), and much more that it changes the way people are going to be building their decks, big time.
Before, it was generally a poor design decision to build a deck that requires the commander in order to function at any time. Now, as long as you have enough removal and mana, it's a given at all times. That's a pretty broad change that, understandably for some, might cause the meta to shift in an unfavorable direction.
I like a lot of the spirit of the rule change. I like commander-centric decks. I don't like that tuck was so concentrated in 2 colors. But on the other hand, when I sit down and see certain commanders - and yeah, prossh, derevi, and wanderer are at the top of that list - I'm usually focusing on finding some tuck from turn 1 so I can get rid of them before the game spirals out of control. Not having that option is going to make things pretty unpleasant in some games.
If this rule change results in some of the more unpleasant commanders getting banned, then I'm all for it and a bag of chips. I agree with the line of thinking that broken commanders shouldn't be reigned in solely by a mechanic possessed by a few colors. But if there's no banlist change and it just makes the best commanders even more invincible, I'm not thrilled. It is of no small annoyance that some of the brokenest commanders are the ones exclusively made for EDH, which makes them more awkward to ban, just like how sol ring is probably immortal now for its presence in all those precons. Also, I'm pretty sure Hinder is unplayable now. But at least my zirilan deck is happy.
Yeah, this is pretty much my thoughts. Tucking commanders was always an odd mechanic which went against what EDH seemed to be trying to be and was inconsitent with other removal. But at the same time, it did fulfil a much needed role, and simply removing it without doing anything about the cards that tuck was answering is not healthy for the game.
Every reason they ave given as to why this change is happening are mind numbingly stupid but this one, this one right shows that no changes are being made for the betterment of the game, just personal biases.
"While we are keenly aware that tuck is a great weapon against problematic commanders, the tools to do so are available only in blue and white, potentially forcing players into feeling like they need to play those colors in order to survive. We prefer as diverse a field as possible. "
THAT'S THE ENTIRE ******* POINT OF THE COLORS. Not every color should be able to deal with everything. With this logic they should ban all mana ramp, all counterspells, all edicts, all burn, anything at all that any color doesn't have access to.
I'm willing to bet soon enough stealing commander with mind control or whatever will just send them back to the command
zone.
EDIT: And now like half a dozen commander are probably on some watchlist to be banned because they got rid of the best answers to them.
Anyone cutting Terminus or Hallowed Burial are going to be sad when someone plays Uril or Sigarda with a Darksteel Plate.
Degenerate decks that are built to rely on and abuse their Commander always include anti-tuck measures like sac outlets and tutors anyway, while everyone else that didn't include 10 sac outlets and 10 tutors in their deck has to suffer through getting their Commander tucked while the offending Commander sits safe in the command zone. You think tuck keeps the format safe, but in reality it's usually the innocent players that get punished the hardest by tuck spells.
There's a lot of ways to shut down a Commander without tucking it, the "lazy deckbuilders" are not the ones that play a format called Commander and expect to play with their Commander, it's the ones that are crying about unanswerable Commanders while the rest of us are finding ways to deal with Commanders that aren't tuck.
Here's a starter list for the less industrious deck builders that think tuck is the only way to stop someone's General:
Nevermore
Null Chamber
Declaration of Naught
Runed Halo
Lignify
Darksteel Mutation
Humility
Song of the Dryads
Pithing Needle
Arrest
Faith's Fetters
Voidstone Gargoyle
Phyrexian Revoker
Invoke Prejudice
Every time the Rules Committee makes a change, people have to be reminded that the official ban list is not meant to create competitive balance, it is meant to create a fun format.
Commander is not a competitively balanced format, never will be and isn't supposed to be. Commander will never be a format that could be played on the Pro Tour. That's what makes it fun. If you come into Commander thinking that the format is balanced and fair no matter who you play against, you have the wrong idea. The secret to Commander is not the ban list, it's the playgroup and the attitude you bring to the game.
If a general is broken enough to absolutely warrant tuck... maybe, just maybe, the problem might be the general. We're not exactly talking about a huge amount of tuck cards to begin with, I wouldn't hold them as a reasonable answer. As said elsewhere in here, still a lot of ways to deal with generals, just not as permanently.
*shrugs*
Least for my meta, this is good. But I guess I don't see those horrible combo decks everyone is worried about.
I feel like the issue is much less "OMG THESE GENERALS ARE GOING TO BE UN-STOPPABLE!!!" (okay some are saying that), and much more that it changes the way people are going to be building their decks, big time.
Before, it was generally a poor design decision to build a deck that requires the commander in order to function at any time. Now, as long as you have enough removal and mana, it's a given at all times. That's a pretty broad change that, understandably for some, might cause the meta to shift in an unfavorable direction.
Agreed, but I'll add that it might also shift a game to a better direction in the longer run - not needing to devote slots 'in case it gets tucked' makes building general-centric decks more fun. Yeah, it will give general-centric combo decks a free reign as well... but the good ol' "talk to the player if it gets oppressive repeatedly" is still an option I'm sure.
People who want to play their stax-solitaire nightmare or T3 kill combo will always find their ways to do that.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
The EDH rules committee is up against an impossible battle. They realize that if they tried to balance the format with bannings, the banlist would become the size of a phonebook. Instead, they chose to limit the banned list to cards that have infamously sucked the fun out of the format.
Tucking effects are capable of sucking the fun out of the format (regular player gets his commander tucked by Spin into Myth).
Tucking effects are also capable of keeping the fun in the format, but at the expense of at least one player (combo player gets shut down. The rest of the table may have fun, but it's scoop territory for Johnny).
Some horrible degenerate player shows up with a nasty combo deck and the only way to stop him is to use a tuck effect. I've seen it happen, but the game stops being a game at that point. Although this is the best possible argument I can make for pro-tucking, you'll notice it fails to solve a problem that doesn't even stem from within the game itself.
I'm the only one who keeps track of the official rules within my meta, I might just choose to withhold this information because it's a terrible, terrible idea
Lying to the friends you play with sounds like a terrible, terrible idea.
I am pretty new to Edh, and only know of rules listed on official Wizards places. Is this as n official rule that sanctioned events must follow? Such as local Edh night at a shop? Ty
As far as I know, cards like Chromanticore and the Nephilims are already permitted as generals in local game shops, which under the rules of the site it'd be completely wrong.
If EDH is a Wizards-sanctioned format with tournaments, that would be different. As it is, I will go with the old rules at my shop. No general-tucking? As if.
The Commander Rules Committee is a separate entity from Wizards (although one of the members is a Wizards employee, and at least one other is a L5 judge). They manage the format rules and banned list, and now consult with Wizards during design of the precons and any other changes Wizards makes which would directly impact the format (like the legendary rule change). So even though this isn't coming from Wizards, it is considered to be official. Wizards has in the past been slow to update the Commander changes on their end. I think Sylvan Primordial was listed as legal on Gatherer for like a month after it got banned.
I just feel like I have to say that your avatar perfectly captured my reaction upon reading this.
On a more serious note, I had been refraining from making Purphoros since there's an abundance of tuck in my meta. I guess that's not a problem anymore, he got a huge buff.
I just feel like I have to say that your avatar perfectly captured my reaction upon reading this.
On a more serious note, I had been refraining from making Purphoros since there's an abundance of tuck in my meta. I guess that's not a problem anymore, he got a huge buff.
One of my friends runs him in our league and tuck has been one of the only reliable ways to slow him down.
I just feel like I have to say that your avatar perfectly captured my reaction upon reading this.
On a more serious note, I had been refraining from making Purphoros since there's an abundance of tuck in my meta. I guess that's not a problem anymore, he got a huge buff.
One of my friends runs him in our league and tuck has been one of the only reliable ways to slow him down.
The funny thing is, WotC just printed mini-Purphoros as a good backup card.
i didnt really think that tuck was a good rule even though there are problem commanders. it seems bizarre that if it gets killed or exiled i can send him back to the zone, whereas hand and tuck don't work the same way. its been a problem trying to explain that to new players, even more so than when someone had a black braids in their deck when she was ok in the 99, but not as a commander.
As far as I know, cards like Chromanticore and the Nephilims are already permitted as generals in local game shops, which under the rules of the site it'd be completely wrong.
If EDH is a Wizards-sanctioned format with tournaments, that would be different. As it is, I will go with the old rules at my shop. No general-tucking? As if.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Dude I promise there isn't some WOTC conspiracy to make you feel bad about buying treasure cruise. (It's like a fifteen cent card anyway.) Part of making magic is that sometimes they push cards powerwise. They take risks on cool cards because people will get excited about them. This game is made by people, and people aren't perfect. It's true that treasure cruise is broken in a lot of eternal formats. That's just a function of the game being around for so long. You can't reasonably expect every single cool card to be perfectly balanced in every format. In the pie chart of magic cards, the slice of banned cards is so tiny compared to all of the cool cards we can play with. And like, a fifth of that slice of still-legal cards is blue.
Anyway, this particular change wasn't made by WOTC. Also, this change only affects a few cards in a very minor fashion. People are crapping their pants like little babies and crying that the sky is falling about how their cards are worthless now, but you know what? Hinder still hits almost every single card that it used to hit. Go ahead, it feels good to put an enemy Tooth and Nail where Eternal Witness and Regrowth can't touch it.
This is a good change. Tucking is obnoxious. People who run generals that need to be tucked are also obnoxious and you don't have to play with them if all they want to do is be oppressive.
*shrugs*
Least for my meta, this is good. But I guess I don't see those horrible combo decks everyone is worried about.
Check out this thread. It was made years ago, so it doesn't include some new options like Feldon of the Third Path.
I personally hate this change, which is odd given none of my decks currently run tuck effects. Some Commanders have become a lot stronger now; some removal got nerfed.
It came up with my local playgroup tonight and three were against it, one was for it. For now, we're playing tuck as tuck, and ignoring the rules change.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I can't tuck commanders outside of my decks with blue or white (I don't play red) and it isn't a HUGE deal, but it makes me sad that they have made this rules change. I also disagreed with the removal of "banned as a commander" because those cards had been proven to be fine in the 99. Strong, but fine. In fact, the very concept of "banned as a commander" is a perfect example of how strong a card it when it can be a commander.
here is an idea... play a better deck. Don't lean on your commander to the point that your deck can't function without it. If you do, be ready to accept the consequences when it is dealt with.
Aside from mono black, i also have an Esper deck that was filled with almost, if not every tuck effect you can use.
That makes this all the more obscenely stupid, as it's been less than six months since the Commander 2014 decks were released with Oblation and Chaos Warp right there in their respective decks. It really feels like a couple guys on the rules committee built Prossh/Maelstrom Wanderer combo decks, got hated out of every game with tuck effects, and then whined and whined until they changed the rule to shut those two up. People trying to find a new play group are going to have to be very careful if they're not super Spikey, as I anticipate every store now is going to have the guy playing Maralen/Sidisi, Undead Vizier Ad Nauseam combo and running roughshod. How is doing this and then banning the 3-5 generals that are going to be completely degenerate without tuck a better option than just leaving things alone? Haven't multiple writers on Wizards' web site written at length about how much they hate banning things because the goal is always to keep the banlist as short as possible? It's just asinine.
UBDragonlord Silumgar WGKarametra, God of Harvests
BRUNekusar, the Mindrazer BGMazirek, Kraul Death Priest
URMelek, Izzet Paragon UGPrime Speaker Zegana
WUHanna, Ship's Navigator BWUSydri, Galvanic Genius
WUBRGSliver Queen RBBladewing the Risen
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council RGXenagos, God of Revels
GFreyalise, Llanowar's Fury RWAurelia, the Warleader
RIb Halfheart, Goblin Tactician BDrana, Liberator of Malakir
UAzami, Lady of Scrolls WNahiri, the Lithomancer
WBGDoran, the Siege Tower CEmrakul, the Promised End
If this rule change results in some of the more unpleasant commanders getting banned, then I'm all for it and a bag of chips. I agree with the line of thinking that broken commanders shouldn't be reigned in solely by a mechanic possessed by a few colors. But if there's no banlist change and it just makes the best commanders even more invincible, I'm not thrilled. It is of no small annoyance that some of the brokenest commanders are the ones exclusively made for EDH, which makes them more awkward to ban, just like how sol ring is probably immortal now for its presence in all those precons. Also, I'm pretty sure Hinder is unplayable now. But at least my zirilan deck is happy.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
To those saying that tuck is not the only answer, I agree. However, linear, general centric decks must respect tucking prior to the change. The fact that they no longer do just gives more incentive to play such decks and play them more aggressively. Just because there are other things doesn't mean we need to nerf tucking. Certainly we didn't make generals immune from control magic effects just because blue is the primary holder of such effects. Certainly we didn't ban enchantments because black and red are much more narrow in their capability to deal with them. Learn to deal with things, people. The player base will adapt as necessary but I only see this causing the exact things that the rules committee was aiming to avoid as opposed to actually stopping them.
I feel like the issue is much less "OMG THESE GENERALS ARE GOING TO BE UN-STOPPABLE!!!" (okay some are saying that), and much more that it changes the way people are going to be building their decks, big time.
Before, it was generally a poor design decision to build a deck that requires the commander in order to function at any time. Now, as long as you have enough removal and mana, it's a given at all times. That's a pretty broad change that, understandably for some, might cause the meta to shift in an unfavorable direction.
Yeah, this is pretty much my thoughts. Tucking commanders was always an odd mechanic which went against what EDH seemed to be trying to be and was inconsitent with other removal. But at the same time, it did fulfil a much needed role, and simply removing it without doing anything about the cards that tuck was answering is not healthy for the game.
"While we are keenly aware that tuck is a great weapon against problematic commanders, the tools to do so are available only in blue and white, potentially forcing players into feeling like they need to play those colors in order to survive. We prefer as diverse a field as possible. "
THAT'S THE ENTIRE ******* POINT OF THE COLORS. Not every color should be able to deal with everything. With this logic they should ban all mana ramp, all counterspells, all edicts, all burn, anything at all that any color doesn't have access to.
I'm willing to bet soon enough stealing commander with mind control or whatever will just send them back to the command
zone.
EDIT: And now like half a dozen commander are probably on some watchlist to be banned because they got rid of the best answers to them.
Degenerate decks that are built to rely on and abuse their Commander always include anti-tuck measures like sac outlets and tutors anyway, while everyone else that didn't include 10 sac outlets and 10 tutors in their deck has to suffer through getting their Commander tucked while the offending Commander sits safe in the command zone. You think tuck keeps the format safe, but in reality it's usually the innocent players that get punished the hardest by tuck spells.
There's a lot of ways to shut down a Commander without tucking it, the "lazy deckbuilders" are not the ones that play a format called Commander and expect to play with their Commander, it's the ones that are crying about unanswerable Commanders while the rest of us are finding ways to deal with Commanders that aren't tuck.
Here's a starter list for the less industrious deck builders that think tuck is the only way to stop someone's General:
Nevermore
Null Chamber
Declaration of Naught
Runed Halo
Lignify
Darksteel Mutation
Humility
Song of the Dryads
Pithing Needle
Arrest
Faith's Fetters
Voidstone Gargoyle
Phyrexian Revoker
Invoke Prejudice
Commander is not a competitively balanced format, never will be and isn't supposed to be. Commander will never be a format that could be played on the Pro Tour. That's what makes it fun. If you come into Commander thinking that the format is balanced and fair no matter who you play against, you have the wrong idea. The secret to Commander is not the ban list, it's the playgroup and the attitude you bring to the game.
Agreed, but I'll add that it might also shift a game to a better direction in the longer run - not needing to devote slots 'in case it gets tucked' makes building general-centric decks more fun. Yeah, it will give general-centric combo decks a free reign as well... but the good ol' "talk to the player if it gets oppressive repeatedly" is still an option I'm sure.
People who want to play their stax-solitaire nightmare or T3 kill combo will always find their ways to do that.
Tucking effects are capable of sucking the fun out of the format (regular player gets his commander tucked by Spin into Myth).
Tucking effects are also capable of keeping the fun in the format, but at the expense of at least one player (combo player gets shut down. The rest of the table may have fun, but it's scoop territory for Johnny).
Some horrible degenerate player shows up with a nasty combo deck and the only way to stop him is to use a tuck effect. I've seen it happen, but the game stops being a game at that point. Although this is the best possible argument I can make for pro-tucking, you'll notice it fails to solve a problem that doesn't even stem from within the game itself.
Tucking is no longer necessary.
They unbanned Rofellos and then rebanned him six months later. They've also taken Kokusho, Metalworker, and Worldgorger Dragon off the list. So yes.
Lying to the friends you play with sounds like a terrible, terrible idea.
The Commander Rules Committee is a separate entity from Wizards (although one of the members is a Wizards employee, and at least one other is a L5 judge). They manage the format rules and banned list, and now consult with Wizards during design of the precons and any other changes Wizards makes which would directly impact the format (like the legendary rule change). So even though this isn't coming from Wizards, it is considered to be official. Wizards has in the past been slow to update the Commander changes on their end. I think Sylvan Primordial was listed as legal on Gatherer for like a month after it got banned.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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I just feel like I have to say that your avatar perfectly captured my reaction upon reading this.
On a more serious note, I had been refraining from making Purphoros since there's an abundance of tuck in my meta. I guess that's not a problem anymore, he got a huge buff.
One of my friends runs him in our league and tuck has been one of the only reliable ways to slow him down.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The funny thing is, WotC just printed mini-Purphoros as a good backup card.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom