No, I've been saying for, oh 3-4 pages maybe, that a tucked commander shouldn't be an auto-lose. As he stated above, a tucked Zada can still win without Zada.
No one said auto-lose but you. It makes zero sense to protect the General against yard and exile, but not the library. Address that issue with your position of 'tuck is fine'.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
No, I've been saying for, oh 3-4 pages maybe, that a tucked commander shouldn't be an auto-lose. As he stated above, a tucked Zada can still win without Zada.
Side note, Chaos Warp no longer gives perks if the card being targeted does not enter the library. You only get the shuffle/reveal if there was a card shuffled into the library first.
Are you sure? I don't see anything about that in the Oracle rules...
Side note, Chaos Warp no longer gives perks if the card being targeted does not enter the library. You only get the shuffle/reveal if there was a card shuffled into the library first.
I do not believe the above is correct :
701.16d If an effect would cause a player to shuffle one or more specific objects into a library, and a replacement or prevention effect causes all such objects to be moved to another zone instead, that library isn't shuffled.
You still flip and place (if permanent) as the second part of the card does not say it is dependent on the first.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Side note, Chaos Warp no longer gives perks if the card being targeted does not enter the library. You only get the shuffle/reveal if there was a card shuffled into the library first.
I do not believe the above is correct :
701.16d If an effect would cause a player to shuffle one or more specific objects into a library, and a replacement or prevention effect causes all such objects to be moved to another zone instead, that library isn't shuffled.
You still flip and place (if permanent) as the second part of the card does not say it is dependent on the first.
This is correct. The change they made was actually that before that rule was in place, the shuffle wouldn't happen, but the reveal still would. People would use this interaction to stack the top of the their library and then Chaos Warp their General. That no longer works since the library is shuffled even if there is nothing to shuffle in.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
It makes zero sense to protect the General against yard and exile, but not the library. Address that issue with your position of 'tuck is fine'.
Rules don't need to make sense, they're arbitrary. In chess, only knights can 'jump' over other pieces. No other piece can do that, and it doesn't make sense. That's all fine, as long as it makes the game more fun rather than needlessly complicated.
Personally, I'm still on the fence about tuck. The old rule was confusing and frustrating for new players, made players feel the need to always play tuck spells and tutors, etc etc. But on the other hand, I really miss having reliable ways to answer my more hated enemy commanders.
It doesn't matter whether that answer is tuck or an instant-speed Arrest variant.
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The opinion that rules don't need to make sense it ridiculous. That analogy about chess is A)Wrong. Kings jump pieces during a Castle and B) not relevant. Definitions about what cards (or pieces) can do can be arbitrary. Why it works one way some times and not other very similar situations is
confusing and frustrating for new players
and vets alike. Because it was non-sensicle.
made players feel the need to always play tuck spells and tutors
exactly the opposite of what EDH should be encouraging.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
The opinion that rules need to make sense is ridiculous. The rules are completely artificial, they aren't meant to do anything other than allow players to play the game. Lots of bizarre rulings come up thanks to layers and timestamps, and it doesn't make sense for the cards to work that way.
The rules of commander, specifically the ability to keep recasting your general and the 'commander damage' rule, can really warp the game. What does make sense is that there could be some built-in way in the rules to serve as a counter or foil to strategies that rely on those warping rules changes.
Tuck accomplished that, despite its flaws.
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701.16d If an effect would cause a player to shuffle a set of objects into a library, that library is shuffled even if there are no objects in that set.
But the entire event of shuffling it into the library is replaced by putting it into the command zone so there shouldn't be a shuffle? Thinking that rule applies to things like a Primal Command on an empty graveyard.
I'll make a thread in the rulings-section to help clear it up.
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701.16d If an effect would cause a player to shuffle one or more specific objects into a library, and a replacement or prevention effect causes all such objects to be moved to another zone instead, that library isn't shuffled.
You still flip and place (if permanent) as the second part of the card does not say it is dependent on the first.
Yeah that's what I said (without citing rules). If your general doesn't get shuffled as a result of the replacement effect, you don't shuffle your library or reveal anything.
At least, that's what I was trying to say. I may not have said it clearly enough.
Yeah that's what I said (without citing rules). If your general doesn't get shuffled as a result of the replacement effect, you don't shuffle your library or reveal anything.
They rewrote 706.1d explicitly to deal with this situation. You shuffle.
They rewrote 706.1d explicitly to deal with this situation. You shuffle.
I thought that originally if your general got targeted by Chaos Warp you could opt to place it back in the Command Zone, you didn't shuffle (because nothing was put in the library), but you still revealed the top card ("originally" being after the tuck rule change). Then they changed the rule so that you only revealed if you in fact shuffled your library, meaning something had to be placed in it.
They rewrote 706.1d explicitly to deal with this situation. You shuffle.
I thought that originally if your general got targeted by Chaos Warp you could opt to place it back in the Command Zone, you didn't shuffle (because nothing was put in the library), but you still revealed the top card ("originally" being after the tuck rule change). Then they changed the rule so that you only revealed if you in fact shuffled your library, meaning something had to be placed in it.
That would be a functional errata to Chaos Warp. The change that actually happened is that you shuffle regardless of putting the commander in the deck or not. (Then you do the rest of the actions on Chaos Warp as normal.)
The rules of commander, specifically the ability to keep recasting your general and the 'commander damage' rule, can really warp the game. What does make sense is that there could be some built-in way in the rules to serve as a counter or foil to strategies that rely on those warping rules changes.
Well the people who created the format disagreed, and changed the rules specifically because it did not make sense. They made it align with the other similar rules, because that makes sense.
Don't like a General? Kill it every time it touches down.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Well the people who created the format disagreed, and changed the rules specifically because it did not make sense. They made it align with the other similar rules, because that makes sense.
Don't like a General? Kill it every time it touches down.
That's a foolish oversimplification.
Prossh doesn't die to removal, because the Prossh player is comboing off with Food Chain or Phyrexian Altar. Removal can't stop this, but Hinder used to.
Derevi doesn't die to removal because her ability dodges commander tax, and the Derevi player will just run you out of removal spells. Chaos Warp used to stop this.
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You know what stops those things? Standing up and playing with someone else.
Take some personal responsibility for your fun if the people you choose to play with do not.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Well the people who created the format disagreed, and changed the rules specifically because it did not make sense. They made it align with the other similar rules, because that makes sense.
Don't like a General? Kill it every time it touches down.
That's a foolish oversimplification.
Prossh doesn't die to removal, because the Prossh player is comboing off with Food Chain or Phyrexian Altar. Removal can't stop this, but Hinder used to.
Derevi doesn't die to removal because her ability dodges commander tax, and the Derevi player will just run you out of removal spells. Chaos Warp used to stop this.
thats true, but if you're sick of seeing the guy play the same deck, talk to that player and just say that you're not up for that right now and you wanna see that janky 4 colour reaper king deck or something. the way how i think most of us 'tuck-haters' see it is that EDH is first and foremost a social format. its a game with inherently unfair rules and major balance issues, which is why it needs to be a social format; in other words, its a game where you have to decide amongst your group of players what your definition of fun is. and regardless of how unfun a derevi lock is to deal with, having a general tucked is probably just as unfun (and was far more prolific).
in your example by the way, the typical derevi lock DOESN'T get stopped by chaos warp, since the derevi player (or the good derevi player) will always have some sort of sac outlet to save it. also, if you let the prossh player get a food chain or phyrexian altar stick and let him untap and/or have enough mana floating to cast prossh, i can't help but feel its the table's misplay/the prossh player's awesomeness that's the problem, not tuck as a potential out that's the problem.. but thats beside the point.
just curious, how many people who want tuck back want to do so because they don't have a 'regular' playgroup (i.e. a playgroup where its difficult to get the same peeps together/play in big events/at the LGS, etc)? as in if they almost purely played with strangers and have to deal with a huge range of power and so therefore having an extra 'trick' can be a bit of a game-saver?
'cuz we had a guy here a long time ago that just came to the store once in a while to literally bring in super unfair decks and just troll people. guessing he had a kick out of it or something. i suppose it would've worked, though i think we solved it by moving our playgroup to our houses (and i appreciate that not everyone can do this).
Prossh doesn't die to removal, because the Prossh player is comboing off with Food Chain or Phyrexian Altar. Removal can't stop this, but Hinder used to.
Derevi doesn't die to removal because her ability dodges commander tax, and the Derevi player will just run you out of removal spells. Chaos Warp used to stop this.
If Prossh is a problem with Food Chain or Altars, then kill the mana-producers on sight. If Derevi is a problem, then you use Torpor Orb/Phyrexian Revoker/Pithing Needle/Containment Priest/Humility. If these are one-off decks, then don't worry about it. If they're active players in your meta, then you should either adapt, or talk to the players to see if they'd be willing to make a change.
Prossh doesn't die to removal, because the Prossh player is comboing off with Food Chain or Phyrexian Altar. Removal can't stop this, but Hinder used to.
Derevi doesn't die to removal because her ability dodges commander tax, and the Derevi player will just run you out of removal spells. Chaos Warp used to stop this.
The move away from tuck forces players to lock out commanders using cards that have to sit on the board that the opponent can interact with. This is inherently weaker than using tuck to get rid of a Commander until the opponent draws into it or draws an appropriate tutor, but it does exist.
Prossh doesn't die to removal, because the Prossh player is comboing off with Food Chain or Phyrexian Altar. Removal can't stop this, but Hinder used to.
Derevi doesn't die to removal because her ability dodges commander tax, and the Derevi player will just run you out of removal spells. Chaos Warp used to stop this.
The move away from tuck forces players to lock out commanders using cards that have to sit on the board that the opponent can interact with. This is inherently weaker than using tuck to get rid of a Commander until the opponent draws into it or draws an appropriate tutor, but it does exist.
I think that the better example of combo nonsense should be centered around Derevi lol. At least with Prossh you can remove what makes him broken, K-grip stops that from happening, all day everyday, yet nobody runs it.
With Derevi she says: "put onto the battlfeild" so Chaos Warping was one of the only ways to spot removal it.
Personally (IMO), I play voltron, as well as many other deck archetypes in EDH and I think that tuck is still fine. If your only weakness is that you need your general in play, then you should be able to have that Achilles heel so that you don't just auto-steamroll over your table.
I also think it's laughable when they create a card in a commander deck and then undercut it with Tilt-based rules. Spell Crumple comes to mind.
I think the tucking was fair and the subsequent rule was a mistake being implemented.
Spell Crumple is still a decent counterspell. It might not be ideal if you go out of your way to get all the ideal cards for an optimized list, but most of the time, it's pretty close to an exile Cancel and could be better if you could tutor instants and not return them from your graveyard. Tuck is still a stupid loophole even if it was a safety valve in competitive. It's still not ideal compared to just having a competitive banned list and banning cards that are problems.
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She.
Are you sure? I don't see anything about that in the Oracle rules...
701.16d If an effect would cause a player to shuffle one or more specific objects into a library, and a replacement or prevention effect causes all such objects to be moved to another zone instead, that library isn't shuffled.
You still flip and place (if permanent) as the second part of the card does not say it is dependent on the first.
Rules don't need to make sense, they're arbitrary. In chess, only knights can 'jump' over other pieces. No other piece can do that, and it doesn't make sense. That's all fine, as long as it makes the game more fun rather than needlessly complicated.
Personally, I'm still on the fence about tuck. The old rule was confusing and frustrating for new players, made players feel the need to always play tuck spells and tutors, etc etc. But on the other hand, I really miss having reliable ways to answer my more hated enemy commanders.
It doesn't matter whether that answer is tuck or an instant-speed Arrest variant.
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The rules of commander, specifically the ability to keep recasting your general and the 'commander damage' rule, can really warp the game. What does make sense is that there could be some built-in way in the rules to serve as a counter or foil to strategies that rely on those warping rules changes.
Tuck accomplished that, despite its flaws.
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
#FreeContractfromBelow
That rule seems to have been changed.
701.16d If an effect would cause a player to shuffle a set of objects into a library, that library is shuffled even if there are no objects in that set.
But the entire event of shuffling it into the library is replaced by putting it into the command zone so there shouldn't be a shuffle? Thinking that rule applies to things like a Primal Command on an empty graveyard.
I'll make a thread in the rulings-section to help clear it up.
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Yeah that's what I said (without citing rules). If your general doesn't get shuffled as a result of the replacement effect, you don't shuffle your library or reveal anything.
At least, that's what I was trying to say. I may not have said it clearly enough.
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They rewrote 706.1d explicitly to deal with this situation. You shuffle.
I thought that originally if your general got targeted by Chaos Warp you could opt to place it back in the Command Zone, you didn't shuffle (because nothing was put in the library), but you still revealed the top card ("originally" being after the tuck rule change). Then they changed the rule so that you only revealed if you in fact shuffled your library, meaning something had to be placed in it.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Don't like a General? Kill it every time it touches down.
I don't care.
That's a foolish oversimplification.
Prossh doesn't die to removal, because the Prossh player is comboing off with Food Chain or Phyrexian Altar. Removal can't stop this, but Hinder used to.
Derevi doesn't die to removal because her ability dodges commander tax, and the Derevi player will just run you out of removal spells. Chaos Warp used to stop this.
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
#FreeContractfromBelow
Take some personal responsibility for your fun if the people you choose to play with do not.
thats true, but if you're sick of seeing the guy play the same deck, talk to that player and just say that you're not up for that right now and you wanna see that janky 4 colour reaper king deck or something. the way how i think most of us 'tuck-haters' see it is that EDH is first and foremost a social format. its a game with inherently unfair rules and major balance issues, which is why it needs to be a social format; in other words, its a game where you have to decide amongst your group of players what your definition of fun is. and regardless of how unfun a derevi lock is to deal with, having a general tucked is probably just as unfun (and was far more prolific).
in your example by the way, the typical derevi lock DOESN'T get stopped by chaos warp, since the derevi player (or the good derevi player) will always have some sort of sac outlet to save it. also, if you let the prossh player get a food chain or phyrexian altar stick and let him untap and/or have enough mana floating to cast prossh, i can't help but feel its the table's misplay/the prossh player's awesomeness that's the problem, not tuck as a potential out that's the problem.. but thats beside the point.
just curious, how many people who want tuck back want to do so because they don't have a 'regular' playgroup (i.e. a playgroup where its difficult to get the same peeps together/play in big events/at the LGS, etc)? as in if they almost purely played with strangers and have to deal with a huge range of power and so therefore having an extra 'trick' can be a bit of a game-saver?
'cuz we had a guy here a long time ago that just came to the store once in a while to literally bring in super unfair decks and just troll people. guessing he had a kick out of it or something. i suppose it would've worked, though i think we solved it by moving our playgroup to our houses (and i appreciate that not everyone can do this).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
If Prossh is a problem with Food Chain or Altars, then kill the mana-producers on sight. If Derevi is a problem, then you use Torpor Orb/Phyrexian Revoker/Pithing Needle/Containment Priest/Humility. If these are one-off decks, then don't worry about it. If they're active players in your meta, then you should either adapt, or talk to the players to see if they'd be willing to make a change.
Doesn't Pithing Needle stop those things from happening currently? Or Faith's Fetters (and similar cards) for Commander's with on-the-board abilities. Lignify and Darksteel Mutation. Stuff like that.
The move away from tuck forces players to lock out commanders using cards that have to sit on the board that the opponent can interact with. This is inherently weaker than using tuck to get rid of a Commander until the opponent draws into it or draws an appropriate tutor, but it does exist.
Your also forgetting Song of the Dryads and Imprisoned in the Moon,
I think that the better example of combo nonsense should be centered around Derevi lol. At least with Prossh you can remove what makes him broken, K-grip stops that from happening, all day everyday, yet nobody runs it.
With Derevi she says: "put onto the battlfeild" so Chaos Warping was one of the only ways to spot removal it.
Personally (IMO), I play voltron, as well as many other deck archetypes in EDH and I think that tuck is still fine. If your only weakness is that you need your general in play, then you should be able to have that Achilles heel so that you don't just auto-steamroll over your table.
I also think it's laughable when they create a card in a commander deck and then undercut it with Tilt-based rules. Spell Crumple comes to mind.
I think the tucking was fair and the subsequent rule was a mistake being implemented.
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