"Decks may only include cards whose colored mana symbols contain a color from their commander's color identity."
I like this one. it allows use of any mana, allows hybrid cards and still excludes phyrexian mana.
I don't like the way this would work because it would allow any card into a deck as long as it shared one color with your commander and would hurt color identity lot, plus it would just feel weird. (Naya cards in Esper???)
What if the rule said this: ?
"Cards in a commander deck may not contain any nonland cards whose converted mana cost or activated abilities cannot be paid with mana of the colors in the chosen commanders color identity. Also, a commander deck may not contain any cards that produce mana if that card has any colors in its identity that are not shared by their commander."
You guys say that the current rule is confusing, but a wordy new rule is just as confusing, if not more so. There is a simplicity to "the card can't have a color not in the CI of your general. You can't produce mana not in the CI of your general". BetweenWalls was on the right track with a simple rule, but the fundamental problem is that CI is a rule to emphasize flavor and not to enhance gameplay. If you want to make the rule better, figure out how to get rid of off color fetches.
You guys say that the current rule is confusing, but a wordy new rule is just as confusing, if not more so. There is a simplicity to "the card can't have a color not in the CI of your general. You can't produce mana not in the CI of your general". BetweenWalls was on the right track with a simple rule, but the fundamental problem is that CI is a rule to emphasize flavor and not to enhance gameplay. If you want to make the rule better, figure out how to get rid of off color fetches.
To me, this is about gameplay and not confusion or simplicity. As a commander player, if I think something would be better for the game, then I'd like to see it happen. Simplicity has its place, but Magic isn't exactly a simple game, and I don't think it should be or needs to be, so if a complex rule will make gameplay better, I would welcome it.
It's like going back to English class again. What's so confusing about the "/" (slash)? Hybrid mana literally translates into "this mana OR that mana".
It doesn't really take away anything from commander's identity. If anything the rule's too rigid, and releasing hybrid gets rid of the redundant restriction.
If I'm playing mono red I Threatened a Shaman of the Great Hunt, I still can't use its activated ability. However if I'm playing Xenagos, God of Revels, there's every right that I should be able to play Shaman and use its ability. It's so intuitive. It's like playing NORMAL Magic. How am I violating the nature of hybrid?
And I reiterate: It's THIS OR THAT. Simple. That's what hybrid is.
To me, this is about gameplay and not confusion or simplicity. As a commander player, if I think something would be better for the game, then I'd like to see it happen. Simplicity has its place, but Magic isn't exactly a simple game, and I don't think it should be or needs to be, so if a complex rule will make gameplay better, I would welcome it.
But if all you care about is gameplay, why have a CI rule at all? It would enhance the game a lot more if my Karador deck could reanimate Jin-Gitaxis or a Keldon Firebomber.
To me, this is about gameplay and not confusion or simplicity. As a commander player, if I think something would be better for the game, then I'd like to see it happen. Simplicity has its place, but Magic isn't exactly a simple game, and I don't think it should be or needs to be, so if a complex rule will make gameplay better, I would welcome it.
I don't see how removing deckbuilding restrictions improves gameplay. The restrictions are there to breed creativity and help to shape a diverse format.
Getting rid of color restrictions would be one step closer to making EDH indistinguishable from Highlander (100 card singleton).
@Cryogen: I disagree, and I think that you do, too. I do not believe that having non-restricted decks would actually be good for game play. One of the greatest things about commander is its diversity (we all know this). I am not saying that the restrictions are bad; I am more saying that some of the current restrictions are bad and that removing them would be good.
@Xoth: Same thing; I think I am being misunderstood, unfortunately. I do not want to unban everything and remove all the restrictions. I just think that the restrictions could be improved upon.
"1. If a card has a converted mana cost that cannot be paid using mana that shares at least one color of the color identity of the chosen commander, then that commander's deck cannot contain that card.
2. If an activated ability that contains mana symbols in its cost cannot be paid using mana that shares at least one color of the color identity of the chosen commander, then that commander's deck cannot contain that card.
3. If a card has an ability that can produce mana, then that ability must not contain any mana symbols in its effect that are not shared with its commander's color identity."
I believe that with similar rules to these, we could abolish Rule 3 and 4 and replace them with those. More confusing? Maybe because it is different. Less simple? Possibly? Better? I believe so.
I am not misunderstanding you, just disagreeing. Allowing hybrid cards to be played in mono-colored decks is removing a color restriction. I think it's better that mono white decks can't play blue spells (Mirrorweave) or red spells (Figure of Destiny).
Here's my stance on the color identity: I believe that it was created as a flavor of "you/your general are X and Y colors. They love those colors and hate the other ones and don't want to associate with them." Any rule surrounding that should do two things, enhance that flavor, and be simple to comprehend. Closing up loopholes would be a close third.
Secondly, in regards to the hybrid mechanic, I don't care about the intentions of why it was created, or how it was meant to be played. The mechanic was created for a game which at the time only supported formats which viewed cards like this: "is it on the ban list? No? Great figure out how to include it in your deck." I don't need to be treated like I am a moron and don't understand basic English. No one is debating that hybrid represents an OR state. Some people want to overlook that the OR state only exists when tapping your mana, because comprehension of the rules will also tell you that a card with a hybrid mana cost is ALWAYS all of those colors.
Noe, the proposed rules changes that come up most often are the following:
1. Hybrid mana is OK anywhere on the card as long as the symbol contains at least one mana symbol of the CI of your general - to which I respond that you are playing multicolor cards in a monocolor deck (such as Krenko running Boros Reckoner). I further ask why I cannot play Birthing Pod.
2. Physical color of the card must match the CI of the general, off color activated abilities are fine - to which I respond why can Xenogas play Shaman because he can use the ability but I can't play Boros Reckoner in Krenko even though I can use it just fine.
"Your deck may only contain cards whose mana costs can be paid for using only colors of mana from your Commander's color identity and whose color identity shares at least one color with your commander or is colorless."
This allows things like Unmake to show up in Maga, Rhys in Ezuri, and Crystallization in Hanna; but prevents things like Pod in Sheoldred or Beseech in Teferi. This also still keeps off-color lands and artifacts from showing up.
Basically, the intention is this:
Hybrid: Any deck that features one of it's colors. (Ex: Unmake in Wx or Bx or WBx)
Two-Brid: Only decks that are it's color. (Ex: Beseech the Queen in Bx only)
Phyrexian: Only decks that are it's color. (Ex: Birthing Pod in Gx only)
Alara Multi-Brid: Any deck that is it's primary color and one ally. (Ex: Crystallization in WUx, GWx, or GWUx)
DFC Cards: Only front face matters. (Ex: Garruk Relentless in Gx, not just GBx)
Off-color activations: Only mana cost matters. (Ex: Yasova Dragonclaw in Gx, RGx, GUx, or GURx)
"Color Identity" Artifacts and lands: Only in decks that share a color with the activation. (Ex: Crown of Convergence in Gx, Wx, or GWx)
Now, of course, this does allow off-color dual lands to show up, like Watery Grave in mono-Black, but the mana rule easily quashes that since a mono-black commander wouldn't be able to tap for blue, he'd only get colorless. Still, it would allow a mono-white commander to have a forest for Loam Lion or something similar.
"Your deck may only contain cards whose mana costs can be paid for using only colors of mana from your Commander's color identity and whose color identity shares at least one color with your commander or is colorless."
This allows things like Unmake to show up in Maga, Rhys in Ezuri, and Crystallization in Hanna; but prevents things like Pod in Sheoldred or Beseech in Teferi. This also still keeps off-color lands and artifacts from showing up.
"Decks may only include cards whose colored mana symbols contain a color from their commander's color identity."
Doesn't work. That would mean that I could play Naya Charm in my Esper-colored Oloro, Ageless Ascetic deck just because Naya charm has a white mana symbol on it...
"1. If a card has a converted mana cost that cannot be paid using mana that shares at least one color of the color identity of the chosen commander, then that commander's deck cannot contain that card.
2. If an activated ability that contains mana symbols in its cost cannot be paid using mana that shares at least one color of the color identity of the chosen commander, then that commander's deck cannot contain that card.
3. If a card has an ability that can produce mana, then that ability must not contain any mana symbols in its effect that are not shared with its commander's color identity."
I believe that with similar rules to these, we could abolish Rule 3 and 4 and replace them with those. More confusing? Maybe because it is different. Less simple? Possibly? Better? I believe so.
Converted mana cost is just a number and ignores color altogether, so I'm not sure that is what you meant. I think that how your rules read would still keep "off-color" hybrids out of decks, but do it in a less explicit way than the rules currently read.
1. Hybrid mana is OK anywhere on the card as long as the symbol contains at least one mana symbol of the CI of your general - to which I respond that you are playing multicolor cards in a monocolor deck (such as Krenko running Boros Reckoner). I further ask why I cannot play Birthing Pod.
2. Physical color of the card must match the CI of the general, off color activated abilities are fine - to which I respond why can Xenogas play Shaman because he can use the ability but I can't play Boros Reckoner in Krenko even though I can use it just fine.
I think that any special rule concerning hybrid mana would also probably have to address Phyrexian mana as well. Personally, I think that a card like Birthing Pod should only be allowed in green decks (how the rule currently reads) because its clearly a green card independent of whether you actually need green mana to cast it or not. I think that if you open the door for cards that can be cast with alternate casting costs we will be able to come up with additional corner cases that go beyond hybrid mana. Furthermore, it deviates further and further from the core idea that EDH is all about color identity and the restrictions is imposes on deckbuilding. It's one of the pillars that the format was founded on (the others being the Commander, a 99-card Highlander deck, and a Social Multiplayer environment). I don't think we gain anything by chipping away at till it falls over...
Because Beseech doesn't share a color with a mono-blue commander. Remember, it's a two-part check: Can any amount of colored mana of your commander's identity cast this card for it's mana cost and does it share at least one color with your commander's identity. Beseech passes the first check, but fails the second.
Here's your justification for not being able to play Birthing Pod: Because that phyrexian mana symbol is still GREEN. Look at it. Do you see any colours in it other than Green? I sure don't. Basically, the Phyrexian Mana symbol should be included as part of color identity on that base. You cannot use a Mountain to tap for the Phyrexian Mana of Birthing Pod. You could even go further on this and state that rules text is also a part of the color identity. Combining this with allowing Hybrid in part-of decks would still enable Crypt Ghast to be played in Mono-Black, and would restrict Birthing Pod from being played in Non-Green decks.
Now, people might bring up Trinisphere, but that isn't rules text, it's example text, which to me is fundamentally different. One'd note the example is gone in the From The Vault printing of said card.
So, my proposed rule is this:
"A card may be included in a deck if all mana symbols on the card fit with your commander's colour identity." I do not personally know any examples other than Trinisphere that fall aside of this.
Furthermore, scrap the "You cannot produce mana from a colour not in your commander's colour identity" rule. If you get donated a Celestial Dawn, you should be able to play it as it is, and likewise you should be able to cast your opponent's stuff through Sen Triplets if you have a Darksteel Ingot. Since you cannot include cards outside of your colour identity anyway...
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
To me, this is about gameplay and not confusion or simplicity. As a commander player, if I think something would be better for the game, then I'd like to see it happen. Simplicity has its place, but Magic isn't exactly a simple game, and I don't think it should be or needs to be, so if a complex rule will make gameplay better, I would welcome it.
I don't see how removing deckbuilding restrictions improves gameplay. The restrictions are there to breed creativity and help to shape a diverse format.
Getting rid of color restrictions would be one step closer to making EDH indistinguishable from Highlander (100 card singleton).
Not all deckbuilding restrictions are good or worth it. There's a balance to be had between fostering fun, and fostering creativity. A format with a bunch of needless and arbitrary restrictions may foster a lot of creativity, but I probably wouldn't play it if they were too annoying. A lot of reasonable people think letting people use hybrid cards would make the game more fun.
Hmmm Id be all for allowing hybrid cards in a deck with only one of the colors but that kinda sounds like a rules nightmare.
When I look at rule 4 I get kinda annoyed... its hardly ever relevant and when it is its usually loses you the game in a way that feels really cheep. I really hate the fact that some one can play celestial dawn and it basically says if your not playing white you dont get to do anything the rest of the game. No there is nothing you can do about it.
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
When I look at rule 4 I get kinda annoyed... its hardly ever relevant and when it is its usually loses you the game in a way that feels really cheep. I really hate the fact that some one can play celestial dawn and it basically says if your not playing white you dont get to do anything the rest of the game. No there is nothing you can do about it.
I don't disagree with your assertion that Rule 4 can be annoying, but just playing a Celestial Dawn doesn't lock someone out of the game. Celestial Dawn needs to also be Donated to another non-white player to lock that person out of playing anything that isn't an artifact (which does give you a few outs in things like Spine of Ish Sah or Unstable Obelisk) unless you have mana rocks that generate colored mana. You have to go out of your way to lock someone out, but there are certain Zedruu the Not-so-Greathearted players out there that seem to have no problem with it...
Getting rid of color restrictions would be one step closer to making EDH indistinguishable from Highlander (100 card singleton).
Not all deckbuilding restrictions are good or worth it. There's a balance to be had between fostering fun, and fostering creativity. A format with a bunch of needless and arbitrary restrictions may foster a lot of creativity, but I probably wouldn't play it if they were too annoying. A lot of reasonable people think letting people use hybrid cards would make the game more fun.
I love your username and you have nice things to say that I agree with.
Please ensure to keep posts on topic and contributing to the discussion at hand. Warning for spamming the forum - BlackVise
"Decks may only include cards whose colored mana symbols contain a color from their commander's color identity."
Doesn't work. That would mean that I could play Naya Charm in my Esper-colored Oloro, Ageless Ascetic deck just because Naya charm has a white mana symbol on it...
Oops, that is a little ambiguous. It's clearer with another word:
"Decks may only include cards whose colored mana symbols each contain a color from their commander's color identity."
This would look at each mana symbol on the card (rules text and casting cost) just like color identity currently does, but instead of checking if all colors of the symbol are a subset of the Commander's color identity, it just checks if either of them is.
"I want to be able to cast this G/W spell in my monowhite deck because I can cast it with white mana but you shouldn't be able to cast a black spell or green spell in your monored deck because I care about color identity."
This is what you guys are essentially saying and it's really frustrating.
All these attempts to allow hybrid mana are clumsy as hell.
The point of color restriction is flavor, not mechanics. Flavor-wise, even if you can cast a card like spitting image in a mono-green deck, it's clearly not a mono-green card. Your commander doesn't like blue stuff getting all up in his green face. He won't stand for it.
The simpler explanation: look at these ridiculous rules people are trying to come up with to allow hybrid but not phyrexian mana.
Your deck may only contain cards whose mana costs can be paid for using only colors of mana from your Commander's color identity and whose color identity shares at least one color with your commander or is colorless.
Oh sure, that's certainly intuitive and easy to understand. And then what if they print a card with a (2/B)G cost? Then I can use it in my mono-green commander's deck? This is one of the key rules that defines the format. If it's ugly and clumsy, the format is ugly and clumsy. If we want any new players to join the format, the key rules need to be simple and clear. Give it a rest, hybrids aren't worth it.
The point of color restriction is flavor, not mechanics. Flavor-wise, even if you can cast a card like spitting image in a mono-green deck, it's clearly not a mono-green card. Your commander doesn't like blue stuff getting all up in his green face. He won't stand for it.
Should I only be allowed to play Sylvan Library in a black deck? It's obviously not green, that's for sure. Poorly designed cards are the exception and not the rule.
I think we can all agree that this is a matter of opinion. Unless WotC makes a statement saying "u guyz, we wanted hybrid cards to be flavorfully either color, and we just did a bad job on a lot of them" then the rule stays where it is. As Dirk says, approach it from a flavor standpoint. Is Spitting Imagesupposed to be either green or blue? Iunno *shrug*. We don't know what the designers were thinking, we don't have an official statement besides mechanical purpose, so that's the period at the end of the sentence.
All these attempts to allow hybrid mana are clumsy as hell.
The point of color restriction is flavor, not mechanics. Flavor-wise, even if you can cast a card like spitting image in a mono-green deck, it's clearly not a mono-green card. Your commander doesn't like blue stuff getting all up in his green face. He won't stand for it.
The simpler explanation: look at these ridiculous rules people are trying to come up with to allow hybrid but not phyrexian mana.
Your deck may only contain cards whose mana costs can be paid for using only colors of mana from your Commander's color identity and whose color identity shares at least one color with your commander or is colorless.
Oh sure, that's certainly intuitive and easy to understand. And then what if they print a card with a (2/B)G cost? Then I can use it in my mono-green commander's deck? This is one of the key rules that defines the format. If it's ugly and clumsy, the format is ugly and clumsy. If we want any new players to join the format, the key rules need to be simple and clear. Give it a rest, hybrids aren't worth it.
I respectfully disagree. The current color identity rules are highly arbitrary. Why can't my Yeva deck use Yasova Dragon claw? She doesn't care about the theft effect, but would love to have a cheap, 3-mana 4/2 Trampler. Why can't Ezuri make use of Rhys the Exiled? He'd love another Wellwisher in his deck. What about Krenko bringing forth the Rise of the Hobgoblins? I admit, my wording isn't the clearest, but I was trying to accommodate as many corner cases as possible.
"I want to be able to cast this G/W spell in my monowhite deck because I can cast it with white mana but you shouldn't be able to cast a black spell or green spell in your monored deck because I care about color identity."
This is what you guys are essentially saying and it's really frustrating.
PREACH!
The logic behind keeping Phyrexian mana to the colors that could cast the spell without lose of life is why Hybrid will always stay multicolor: an alternate cost does not remove the color of the card. Bouncing back an Island to play Daze doesn't make Daze less blue, paying life to cast/activate Birthing Pod doesn't make it not green, and only using red mana to cast Boros Reckoner doesn't make the card not white.
All these attempts to allow hybrid mana are clumsy as hell.
Which is why I asked people to present a potential wording that would be elegant enough to implement. To date, I have not heard anything that does it correctly and succinctly (in this thread or IRL discussions on the subject). I personally think that whatever anyone comes up with, people will be bale to poke holes in it unless the rule gets clumsy and complicated enough to no longer be feasible. I'd much rather leave it alone, shuffle up, and play.
I don't like the way this would work because it would allow any card into a deck as long as it shared one color with your commander and would hurt color identity lot, plus it would just feel weird. (Naya cards in Esper???)
What if the rule said this: ?
"Cards in a commander deck may not contain any nonland cards whose converted mana cost or activated abilities cannot be paid with mana of the colors in the chosen commanders color identity. Also, a commander deck may not contain any cards that produce mana if that card has any colors in its identity that are not shared by their commander."
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To me, this is about gameplay and not confusion or simplicity. As a commander player, if I think something would be better for the game, then I'd like to see it happen. Simplicity has its place, but Magic isn't exactly a simple game, and I don't think it should be or needs to be, so if a complex rule will make gameplay better, I would welcome it.
It doesn't really take away anything from commander's identity. If anything the rule's too rigid, and releasing hybrid gets rid of the redundant restriction.
If I'm playing mono red I Threatened a Shaman of the Great Hunt, I still can't use its activated ability. However if I'm playing Xenagos, God of Revels, there's every right that I should be able to play Shaman and use its ability. It's so intuitive. It's like playing NORMAL Magic. How am I violating the nature of hybrid?
And I reiterate: It's THIS OR THAT. Simple. That's what hybrid is.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
But if all you care about is gameplay, why have a CI rule at all? It would enhance the game a lot more if my Karador deck could reanimate Jin-Gitaxis or a Keldon Firebomber.
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I don't see how removing deckbuilding restrictions improves gameplay. The restrictions are there to breed creativity and help to shape a diverse format.
Getting rid of color restrictions would be one step closer to making EDH indistinguishable from Highlander (100 card singleton).
@Xoth: Same thing; I think I am being misunderstood, unfortunately. I do not want to unban everything and remove all the restrictions. I just think that the restrictions could be improved upon.
"1. If a card has a converted mana cost that cannot be paid using mana that shares at least one color of the color identity of the chosen commander, then that commander's deck cannot contain that card.
2. If an activated ability that contains mana symbols in its cost cannot be paid using mana that shares at least one color of the color identity of the chosen commander, then that commander's deck cannot contain that card.
3. If a card has an ability that can produce mana, then that ability must not contain any mana symbols in its effect that are not shared with its commander's color identity."
I believe that with similar rules to these, we could abolish Rule 3 and 4 and replace them with those. More confusing? Maybe because it is different. Less simple? Possibly? Better? I believe so.
I am not misunderstanding you, just disagreeing. Allowing hybrid cards to be played in mono-colored decks is removing a color restriction. I think it's better that mono white decks can't play blue spells (Mirrorweave) or red spells (Figure of Destiny).
Secondly, in regards to the hybrid mechanic, I don't care about the intentions of why it was created, or how it was meant to be played. The mechanic was created for a game which at the time only supported formats which viewed cards like this: "is it on the ban list? No? Great figure out how to include it in your deck." I don't need to be treated like I am a moron and don't understand basic English. No one is debating that hybrid represents an OR state. Some people want to overlook that the OR state only exists when tapping your mana, because comprehension of the rules will also tell you that a card with a hybrid mana cost is ALWAYS all of those colors.
Noe, the proposed rules changes that come up most often are the following:
1. Hybrid mana is OK anywhere on the card as long as the symbol contains at least one mana symbol of the CI of your general - to which I respond that you are playing multicolor cards in a monocolor deck (such as Krenko running Boros Reckoner). I further ask why I cannot play Birthing Pod.
2. Physical color of the card must match the CI of the general, off color activated abilities are fine - to which I respond why can Xenogas play Shaman because he can use the ability but I can't play Boros Reckoner in Krenko even though I can use it just fine.
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This allows things like Unmake to show up in Maga, Rhys in Ezuri, and Crystallization in Hanna; but prevents things like Pod in Sheoldred or Beseech in Teferi. This also still keeps off-color lands and artifacts from showing up.
Basically, the intention is this:
Hybrid: Any deck that features one of it's colors. (Ex: Unmake in Wx or Bx or WBx)
Two-Brid: Only decks that are it's color. (Ex: Beseech the Queen in Bx only)
Phyrexian: Only decks that are it's color. (Ex: Birthing Pod in Gx only)
Alara Multi-Brid: Any deck that is it's primary color and one ally. (Ex: Crystallization in WUx, GWx, or GWUx)
DFC Cards: Only front face matters. (Ex: Garruk Relentless in Gx, not just GBx)
Off-color activations: Only mana cost matters. (Ex: Yasova Dragonclaw in Gx, RGx, GUx, or GURx)
"Color Identity" Artifacts and lands: Only in decks that share a color with the activation. (Ex: Crown of Convergence in Gx, Wx, or GWx)
Now, of course, this does allow off-color dual lands to show up, like Watery Grave in mono-Black, but the mana rule easily quashes that since a mono-black commander wouldn't be able to tap for blue, he'd only get colorless. Still, it would allow a mono-white commander to have a forest for Loam Lion or something similar.
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You can't cast beseech with ?
Doesn't work. That would mean that I could play Naya Charm in my Esper-colored Oloro, Ageless Ascetic deck just because Naya charm has a white mana symbol on it...
Converted mana cost is just a number and ignores color altogether, so I'm not sure that is what you meant. I think that how your rules read would still keep "off-color" hybrids out of decks, but do it in a less explicit way than the rules currently read.
I think that any special rule concerning hybrid mana would also probably have to address Phyrexian mana as well. Personally, I think that a card like Birthing Pod should only be allowed in green decks (how the rule currently reads) because its clearly a green card independent of whether you actually need green mana to cast it or not. I think that if you open the door for cards that can be cast with alternate casting costs we will be able to come up with additional corner cases that go beyond hybrid mana. Furthermore, it deviates further and further from the core idea that EDH is all about color identity and the restrictions is imposes on deckbuilding. It's one of the pillars that the format was founded on (the others being the Commander, a 99-card Highlander deck, and a Social Multiplayer environment). I don't think we gain anything by chipping away at till it falls over...
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Now, people might bring up Trinisphere, but that isn't rules text, it's example text, which to me is fundamentally different. One'd note the example is gone in the From The Vault printing of said card.
So, my proposed rule is this:
"A card may be included in a deck if all mana symbols on the card fit with your commander's colour identity." I do not personally know any examples other than Trinisphere that fall aside of this.
Furthermore, scrap the "You cannot produce mana from a colour not in your commander's colour identity" rule. If you get donated a Celestial Dawn, you should be able to play it as it is, and likewise you should be able to cast your opponent's stuff through Sen Triplets if you have a Darksteel Ingot. Since you cannot include cards outside of your colour identity anyway...
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
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Not all deckbuilding restrictions are good or worth it. There's a balance to be had between fostering fun, and fostering creativity. A format with a bunch of needless and arbitrary restrictions may foster a lot of creativity, but I probably wouldn't play it if they were too annoying. A lot of reasonable people think letting people use hybrid cards would make the game more fun.
When I look at rule 4 I get kinda annoyed... its hardly ever relevant and when it is its usually loses you the game in a way that feels really cheep. I really hate the fact that some one can play celestial dawn and it basically says if your not playing white you dont get to do anything the rest of the game. No there is nothing you can do about it.
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
I don't disagree with your assertion that Rule 4 can be annoying, but just playing a Celestial Dawn doesn't lock someone out of the game. Celestial Dawn needs to also be Donated to another non-white player to lock that person out of playing anything that isn't an artifact (which does give you a few outs in things like Spine of Ish Sah or Unstable Obelisk) unless you have mana rocks that generate colored mana. You have to go out of your way to lock someone out, but there are certain Zedruu the Not-so-Greathearted players out there that seem to have no problem with it...
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cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
"Decks may only include cards whose colored mana symbols each contain a color from their commander's color identity."
This would look at each mana symbol on the card (rules text and casting cost) just like color identity currently does, but instead of checking if all colors of the symbol are a subset of the Commander's color identity, it just checks if either of them is.
This is what you guys are essentially saying and it's really frustrating.
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The point of color restriction is flavor, not mechanics. Flavor-wise, even if you can cast a card like spitting image in a mono-green deck, it's clearly not a mono-green card. Your commander doesn't like blue stuff getting all up in his green face. He won't stand for it.
The simpler explanation: look at these ridiculous rules people are trying to come up with to allow hybrid but not phyrexian mana. Oh sure, that's certainly intuitive and easy to understand. And then what if they print a card with a (2/B)G cost? Then I can use it in my mono-green commander's deck? This is one of the key rules that defines the format. If it's ugly and clumsy, the format is ugly and clumsy. If we want any new players to join the format, the key rules need to be simple and clear. Give it a rest, hybrids aren't worth it.
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Should I only be allowed to play Sylvan Library in a black deck? It's obviously not green, that's for sure. Poorly designed cards are the exception and not the rule.
I think we can all agree that this is a matter of opinion. Unless WotC makes a statement saying "u guyz, we wanted hybrid cards to be flavorfully either color, and we just did a bad job on a lot of them" then the rule stays where it is. As Dirk says, approach it from a flavor standpoint. Is Spitting Image supposed to be either green or blue? Iunno *shrug*. We don't know what the designers were thinking, we don't have an official statement besides mechanical purpose, so that's the period at the end of the sentence.
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
I respectfully disagree. The current color identity rules are highly arbitrary. Why can't my Yeva deck use Yasova Dragon claw? She doesn't care about the theft effect, but would love to have a cheap, 3-mana 4/2 Trampler. Why can't Ezuri make use of Rhys the Exiled? He'd love another Wellwisher in his deck. What about Krenko bringing forth the Rise of the Hobgoblins? I admit, my wording isn't the clearest, but I was trying to accommodate as many corner cases as possible.
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The logic behind keeping Phyrexian mana to the colors that could cast the spell without lose of life is why Hybrid will always stay multicolor: an alternate cost does not remove the color of the card. Bouncing back an Island to play Daze doesn't make Daze less blue, paying life to cast/activate Birthing Pod doesn't make it not green, and only using red mana to cast Boros Reckoner doesn't make the card not white.
BRRakdos, Lord of RiotsBR
Which is why I asked people to present a potential wording that would be elegant enough to implement. To date, I have not heard anything that does it correctly and succinctly (in this thread or IRL discussions on the subject). I personally think that whatever anyone comes up with, people will be bale to poke holes in it unless the rule gets clumsy and complicated enough to no longer be feasible. I'd much rather leave it alone, shuffle up, and play.
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