I've never seen Jhoira as a problem, but as far as I have seen, the reason that people say it should be banned are cards like Obliterate and Decree of Annihilation. (...snip...)
Here's what I think: Jhoira has no reason to be banned as a Commander. Her only problem is the interaction with MLD. I think it would be safer to ban Obliterate. Without those cards, Jhoira players will not be able to "play solitaire" again, because they will need to actually fight the other players. That being said, I don't think that the cards I mentioned should be banned.
This is what I think as well, I posted something similar a few pages back. To me this is definitely a "playgroup expectations" issue more than anything else. In my metas, mass LD just isn't a primary strategy of any deck anyone plays frequently, because nobody enjoys it. Once in a while someone will do the fatty-geddon thing, or make a stax variant and play it once or twice, but it's just a rare thing for anyone to force the table to drop all their lands into the yard, and whoever does it usually wears a sheepish grin knowing they will probably not only get gang-killed if possible in the current game, but maybe the next one of the night too, just for the amusement factor.
For us, Jhoira is a goofy card that lets you try to cast a bunch of absurdly overpriced spells memorable only for their casting costs, not a way to force through Ulamog+Obliterate as fast as possible.
As many people have pointed out, once you enter the realm of optimized competitive decks, Jhoira isn't even the Spikiest or most dangerous general. The real problem seems to be that people hate the LD-based Jhoira build even more than they hate fast combo decks.
Whatever problems Jhoira is causing seem a lot better served by addressing the role of LD in your playgroups or leagues than by banning her.
Jhoira as a card, is not horribly strong, but is instead one of the strongest generals for a strategy that appears to be unpopular (ala, derdling/playing solitaire/what ever you want to call it).
Yes, she encourages building around her, but in the same way as all commanders should encourage a theme. After all, a commander is supposed to be the focus of the deck. It's the one card you get to play consistently. Popular generals often have standard builds. If I said Scion, half the people might shout DRAGONS with glee, and the other half might groan and say hermit druid. If I say Niv-Mizzet, you say curiosity. If I say Zur, you say enchantments. If I say Uril, you say auras. You get the idea.
I don't consider it "derdling," because she's basically Timmy in UR. Her fast mana method is usually trying to power out a fat creature in the same way ramp would. I guess one reason to dislike that would be UR being Timmy in a somewhat Spike fashion.
The problem is that most people, either for or against it, are coming up with really dumb responses to how Jhoira is/isn't broken. Whether its Sun's response of any deck beats Jhoira, or these God-hands people keep mentioning, these don't really show Jhoira as a consistent threat.
That being said, I kind of want her banned just because of how uninteractive she is. Even combo can usually be interacted with in some way or shape, but apart from Riftsweeper, no card really interacts with suspend.
More cards interact with suspend than combo. In combo, you're usually either dealing with stifle effects to prevent the combo, flat out counterspell, or some method of spot removal. All interact with suspend. You can either use stifle effects on the triggered ability to keep the card in exile, or you can counterspell it when it's cast. If it's a big creature, once it's in play you can also destroy or exile it.
Suspend is also more interactive because you get to see what's going to happen before it happens, and plan accordingly. Everyone suspects when a player is trying to do something explosive, but how often does that player shout "MWAHAHA TRY AND STOP ME I'M GOING TO DO ______" several turns in advance? To me, this is a high amount of interactivity. Most threats are only discussed as they appear. Jhoira lets you discuss threats before they appear.
This brings us to a point I wanted to try and ask (which was originally brought up in an article on mtgs about banning or not banning sol ring): Is the argument of The power/effect of muiltiplayer allows broken cards to be fine really an agrument/philosophy that most people support? I feel as though people think Jhoira is fine, because all the people at the table will look at her first. I personally feel that is a very slippery slope that could likely be said about every card on the ban list.
I feel ganging up on the player should be clumped with the bad arguments. Telling the player you aren't having fun is way better than some passive aggressive strategy that has just as much potential to cause bitter feelings than to actually solve the problem.
It's not a slippery slope to say that there are stronger, less interactive generals to play, which I feel should be the main point of discussion. Unless everyone in the same tier as her is also banned, it seems silly to get rid of her.
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"What is mana but possibility, an idea not yet given form?" - Jhoira
YEAH DAWG ITS ALL ABOUT ME BEING CONCEDED. Actually, I was just pointing out the severe copious amounts of BS that no one calls anyone else out but me when saying this thread is garbage.
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BBe the broke or the breakerB
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
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The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation BOf your own master planB
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Conceited.
As much as I love Princess Bride, that is some xtreme spelling nazi stuff you got goin on there.
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Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation BOf your own master planB
That's not misspelling, that's a completely different word with an altogether different meaning.
I mispelled a single word that is another word. Oh darn. Is that all you guys got to try and get under my skin when I make a valid point?
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Unlock and open the door
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Realize you are your own source of all creation BOf your own master planB
Personally, I think Jhoria and her deck is fine. Last time I played against it, I still had my Drana deck together. Jhoria hit, Blightsteel suspended. Two turns before BS hit, Obliterate landed. It actually landed in a hilarious way in a way that beat "MOAR ANSWERS." One player cast Praetor's Grasp, targeting Jhoria, ready to name Obliterate, who then asked "Is that a Sorcery?" and proceeded to cast Counterlash into Obliterate. Four people groaned and scooped and I laughed because I had been the one that introduced that particular spell into the group. I was the only one who didn't scoop because I had prepared for it. I saw the Blightsteel and held on to an Edict and Two lands in my hand. Luckily, I had some Eldrazi Spawn from Pawn of Ulamog on the field because I had forgotten that Suspend gives haste. Long story short, I forced him to sacrifice his Blightsteel and ultimately out raced him into victory with 9 Infect stinging me.
The moral of the story is that Jhoria isn't inherently a problem. Hell, Obliterate and Blightsteel aren't exactly inherent problems. When the three are used together, that's when the problems start occurring. What happens when I drop a third turn Omniscience when I sacrifice my Academy Rector to Ashnod's Alter and then cast Obliterate, and Blightsteel? How about I cast Obliterate followed by Faith's Reward?
I agree in this case that Obliterate has a lot to blame here. Decks that use it, however, are fairly obvious. Obviously Jhoria uses it, I use it in Sek'Kuar, anyone can combo it with Faith's Reward providing they have the mana. Do I think it should be banned? maybe, but I feel there are other cards that should be banned first because they're more disruptive to the game. My group jokes around saying "Yea, let's ban Prime Time, but keep Tooth and Nail and Consecrated Sphinx."
BBe the broke or the breakerB
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation BOf your own master planB
Personally, I think Jhoria and her deck is fine. Last time I played against it, I still had my Drana deck together. Jhoria hit, Blightsteel suspended. Two turns before BS hit, Obliterate landed. It actually landed in a hilarious way in a way that beat "MOAR ANSWERS." One player cast Praetor's Grasp, targeting Jhoria, ready to name Obliterate, who then asked "Is that a Sorcery?" and proceeded to cast Counterlash into Obliterate. Four people groaned and scooped and I laughed because I had been the one that introduced that particular spell into the group. I was the only one who didn't scoop because I had prepared for it. I saw the Blightsteel and held on to an Edict and Two lands in my hand. Luckily, I had some Eldrazi Spawn from Pawn of Ulamog on the field because I had forgotten that Suspend gives haste. Long story short, I forced him to sacrifice his Blightsteel and ultimately out raced him into victory with 9 Infect stinging me.
The moral of the story is that Jhoria isn't inherently a problem. Hell, Obliterate and Blightsteel aren't exactly inherent problems. When the three are used together, that's when the problems start occurring. What happens when I drop a third turn Omniscience when I sacrifice my Academy Rector to Ashnod's Alter and then cast Obliterate, and Blightsteel? How about I cast Obliterate followed by Faith's Reward?
I agree in this case that Obliterate has a lot to blame here. Decks that use it, however, are fairly obvious. Obviously Jhoria uses it, I use it in Sek'Kuar, anyone can combo it with Faith's Reward providing they have the mana. Do I think it should be banned? maybe, but I feel there are other cards that should be banned first because they're more disruptive to the game. My group jokes around saying "Yea, let's ban Prime Time, but keep Tooth and Nail and Consecrated Sphinx."
Should we look at Obliterate? I mean, it is the worst offender when it comes to sweeping. It can't be countered, and is one of the reasons we are looking at Jhoria. Perhaps it should be polled next.
Should we look at Obliterate? I mean, it is the worst offender when it comes to sweeping. It can't be countered, and is one of the reasons we are looking at Jhoria. Perhaps it should be polled next.
If we go ahead with this "poll every card you could lose to" we'll have a poll about "combinating": Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and Lord of EXTINCTION ... Every nice "combo" will be polled and in the end we're all playing pauper-commander forever...
If we go ahead with this "poll every card you could lose to" we'll have a poll about "combinating": Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and Lord of EXTINCTION ... Every nice "combo" will be polled and in the end we're all playing pauper-commander forever...
Hey, Pauper Commander is fun. Don't knock it till you try it.
If we go ahead with this "poll every card you could lose to" we'll have a poll about "combinating": Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and Lord of EXTINCTION ... Every nice "combo" will be polled and in the end we're all playing pauper-commander forever...
Stop overreacting and acting like the poll actually means anything or will get your favorite cards banned.
Spoilers: It doesn't and it won't.
And yeah, pauper commander is fun.
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The wedding is over. Now it's time for the honeymoon.
Obliterate is boring, but is not too played (except in Jhoira-combo decks), so I don't think it's a real problem. Just one of the many cards that people will hate, like Teferi, mage of zhalfir, or T&N. Nothing to see here, let's move on.
Obliterate is actually played quite abit. It mixes extreamly well with Planeswalkers and Undying, if setup well, it can lead to some blowout games.
Hey, Pauper Commander is fun. Don't knock it till you try it.
I'm not saying it's not fun, I'm saying we'll not have another choice to play "RC conform" without giving up playing all the beloved card's we've got in our binders...
Just imagine everyone is hunting booster's because there are more common cards in it as uncommon or rares/mythics
Ban all foil's please because they make losers look good as well
If we go ahead with this "poll every card you could lose to" we'll have a poll about "combinating": Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and Lord of EXTINCTION ... Every nice "combo" will be polled and in the end we're all playing pauper-commander forever...
No..... We'll still be playing with the same ban list because THE RC DOES NOT BAN A CARD BASED ON THIS THREAD.
Stop overreacting and acting like the poll actually means anything or will get your favorite cards banned.
Spoilers: It doesn't and it won't.
And yeah, pauper commander is fun.
You're to one who take's it to serious, I did not say they will ban I'm not overreacting I'm just saying stop spam this poll for every single card someone could lose to!
It's hard to tell if you're joking when twelve people every day say the same thing. The number of people who think this poll is in any way official is too damn high.
Edit: the whole stop polling dumb cards is a catch-22. If you run the poll for a few days, you're going to poll dumb cards and people will complain. If you don't, people will complain that the poll hasn't changed or post new threads for the same purpose as this thread. Either way people will complain.
You can't ban an entire deck/card style. Mass boom spells are a part of the game. Banning one of them won't help, and banning Jhoira won't make that deck style go away.
In before, "Worldfire and Sway say you're wrong". Life setting is the difference, which ALWAYS leads to bad endings to games, instead of just turning the game into a low mana crawl like I've, unfortunately, usually seen happen with Obliterate.
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This format is the only reason I still own Magic cards.
I've never seen Jhoira as a problem, but as far as I have seen, the reason that people say it should be banned are cards like Obliterate and Decree of Annihilation.
Here's a couple of questions:
-without mass LD, would Jhoira still be a problem, in your opinion?
-has anyone ever used the aforementioned MLD cards in a "fair" way? (I mean, restarting the game is just dumb and boring, unless you are comboing out)
I'm not sure what a "fair" way is, but i used to run a Jund deck with nothing but indestructible and undying creatures, and the Obliterate effects. Pretty much a "destroy everything except my creatures" deck. Worked really well if I wasn't hated on before I got to blow everything up. But the mass LD wasn't a stall tactic, it was a wincon when I've got 30 power worth of stuff on the board afterwards. Is that the fair use of it?
The difference between that and Jhoira is that you had established board position. Jhoira is more like a carnival game where you throw a bunch of stuff towards a plate and hope one lands and you win a prize.
It's hard to tell if you're joking when twelve people every day say the same thing. The number of people who think this poll is in any way official is too damn high.
Edit: the whole stop polling dumb cards is a catch-22. If you run the poll for a few days, you're going to poll dumb cards and people will complain. If you don't, people will complain that the poll hasn't changed or post new threads for the same purpose as this thread. Either way people will complain.
I almost agree. I think we've got another problem as well...
It's like Magic is getting played all day and day by day the community is growing. There are a lot of people wich are new to it. It's not a surprise that they have to get in magic and the format first. Several of my friends started playing Magic some month's ago (commander only).
I don't discuss the issues from here, they will come to this point early enough. So far I didn't had to tell them about the "banlist" because they did not think about playing with one of the cards listed.
From my point of view we've got about 2 ban "styles" that can occur:
- First one, everyone see it's brokeness/stupidity or whatever you like to call it like Worldfire for example. It's getting banned before it get's played heavily.
- Second one, during a legal playtime over "x-months" many player realize how broken/boring the card is like it happened with PT.
But we started do discuss Jhoira-like cards just because [tell me]? Jhoira is legal since it's printed... Yeah there are ways to win with her...
Seriously guys, what's next? Cards like Primal Surge ?
Yeah, but look at the trend: card X gets polled, at some point card Y is brought up and discussed, poll for card X ends, mod says "hey, card Y was mentioned, lets poll it". His is exactly what happened with Jhoira. That doesn't mean she's problem, just that she was talked about and Weebo thought she would make a good next poll. There's only so many cards that will have us evenly divided. Sometimes we just need to poll a card that has an obvious winner, just because there's something unliked about the card.
This is what I think as well, I posted something similar a few pages back. To me this is definitely a "playgroup expectations" issue more than anything else. In my metas, mass LD just isn't a primary strategy of any deck anyone plays frequently, because nobody enjoys it. Once in a while someone will do the fatty-geddon thing, or make a stax variant and play it once or twice, but it's just a rare thing for anyone to force the table to drop all their lands into the yard, and whoever does it usually wears a sheepish grin knowing they will probably not only get gang-killed if possible in the current game, but maybe the next one of the night too, just for the amusement factor.
For us, Jhoira is a goofy card that lets you try to cast a bunch of absurdly overpriced spells memorable only for their casting costs, not a way to force through Ulamog+Obliterate as fast as possible.
As many people have pointed out, once you enter the realm of optimized competitive decks, Jhoira isn't even the Spikiest or most dangerous general. The real problem seems to be that people hate the LD-based Jhoira build even more than they hate fast combo decks.
Whatever problems Jhoira is causing seem a lot better served by addressing the role of LD in your playgroups or leagues than by banning her.
Yes, she encourages building around her, but in the same way as all commanders should encourage a theme. After all, a commander is supposed to be the focus of the deck. It's the one card you get to play consistently. Popular generals often have standard builds. If I said Scion, half the people might shout DRAGONS with glee, and the other half might groan and say hermit druid. If I say Niv-Mizzet, you say curiosity. If I say Zur, you say enchantments. If I say Uril, you say auras. You get the idea.
I don't consider it "derdling," because she's basically Timmy in UR. Her fast mana method is usually trying to power out a fat creature in the same way ramp would. I guess one reason to dislike that would be UR being Timmy in a somewhat Spike fashion.
Agreed. Moving on.
More cards interact with suspend than combo. In combo, you're usually either dealing with stifle effects to prevent the combo, flat out counterspell, or some method of spot removal. All interact with suspend. You can either use stifle effects on the triggered ability to keep the card in exile, or you can counterspell it when it's cast. If it's a big creature, once it's in play you can also destroy or exile it.
Suspend is also more interactive because you get to see what's going to happen before it happens, and plan accordingly. Everyone suspects when a player is trying to do something explosive, but how often does that player shout "MWAHAHA TRY AND STOP ME I'M GOING TO DO ______" several turns in advance? To me, this is a high amount of interactivity. Most threats are only discussed as they appear. Jhoira lets you discuss threats before they appear.
I feel ganging up on the player should be clumped with the bad arguments. Telling the player you aren't having fun is way better than some passive aggressive strategy that has just as much potential to cause bitter feelings than to actually solve the problem.
It's not a slippery slope to say that there are stronger, less interactive generals to play, which I feel should be the main point of discussion. Unless everyone in the same tier as her is also banned, it seems silly to get rid of her.
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YEAH DAWG ITS ALL ABOUT ME BEING CONCEDED. Actually, I was just pointing out the severe copious amounts of BS that no one calls anyone else out but me when saying this thread is garbage.
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation
BOf your own master planB
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Conceited.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
As much as I love Princess Bride, that is some xtreme spelling nazi stuff you got goin on there.
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation
BOf your own master planB
That's not misspelling, that's a completely different word with an altogether different meaning.
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I mispelled a single word that is another word. Oh darn. Is that all you guys got to try and get under my skin when I make a valid point?
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation
BOf your own master planB
Take a deep breath and use that fancy scroll wheel on your mouth. He was talking to the guy that called you "conceded".
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The moral of the story is that Jhoria isn't inherently a problem. Hell, Obliterate and Blightsteel aren't exactly inherent problems. When the three are used together, that's when the problems start occurring. What happens when I drop a third turn Omniscience when I sacrifice my Academy Rector to Ashnod's Alter and then cast Obliterate, and Blightsteel? How about I cast Obliterate followed by Faith's Reward?
I agree in this case that Obliterate has a lot to blame here. Decks that use it, however, are fairly obvious. Obviously Jhoria uses it, I use it in Sek'Kuar, anyone can combo it with Faith's Reward providing they have the mana. Do I think it should be banned? maybe, but I feel there are other cards that should be banned first because they're more disruptive to the game. My group jokes around saying "Yea, let's ban Prime Time, but keep Tooth and Nail and Consecrated Sphinx."
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
Fancy scroll wheel on my "mouth"? OMG SPELLING ERROR
Spam infraction issued. -Weebo
Be the giver or the undertaker
Unlock and open the door
Be the healer or the breaker
The keys are in your hands
Realize you are your own source of all creation
BOf your own master planB
Should we look at Obliterate? I mean, it is the worst offender when it comes to sweeping. It can't be countered, and is one of the reasons we are looking at Jhoria. Perhaps it should be polled next.
Lol, you got me. Auto-correct claims another victim.
Edit:
I'm fine with that.
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Hey, Pauper Commander is fun. Don't knock it till you try it.
Stop overreacting and acting like the poll actually means anything or will get your favorite cards banned.
Spoilers: It doesn't and it won't.
And yeah, pauper commander is fun.
Thanks to Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures!
Obliterate is actually played quite abit. It mixes extreamly well with Planeswalkers and Undying, if setup well, it can lead to some blowout games.
I'm not saying it's not fun, I'm saying we'll not have another choice to play "RC conform" without giving up playing all the beloved card's we've got in our binders...
Just imagine everyone is hunting booster's because there are more common cards in it as uncommon or rares/mythics
Ban all foil's please because they make losers look good as well
No..... We'll still be playing with the same ban list because THE RC DOES NOT BAN A CARD BASED ON THIS THREAD.
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You didn't get the joke about right? No problem
You're to one who take's it to serious, I did not say they will ban I'm not overreacting I'm just saying stop spam this poll for every single card someone could lose to!
It's hard to tell if you're joking when twelve people every day say the same thing. The number of people who think this poll is in any way official is too damn high.
Edit: the whole stop polling dumb cards is a catch-22. If you run the poll for a few days, you're going to poll dumb cards and people will complain. If you don't, people will complain that the poll hasn't changed or post new threads for the same purpose as this thread. Either way people will complain.
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In before, "Worldfire and Sway say you're wrong". Life setting is the difference, which ALWAYS leads to bad endings to games, instead of just turning the game into a low mana crawl like I've, unfortunately, usually seen happen with Obliterate.
I'm not sure what a "fair" way is, but i used to run a Jund deck with nothing but indestructible and undying creatures, and the Obliterate effects. Pretty much a "destroy everything except my creatures" deck. Worked really well if I wasn't hated on before I got to blow everything up. But the mass LD wasn't a stall tactic, it was a wincon when I've got 30 power worth of stuff on the board afterwards. Is that the fair use of it?
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I almost agree. I think we've got another problem as well...
It's like Magic is getting played all day and day by day the community is growing. There are a lot of people wich are new to it. It's not a surprise that they have to get in magic and the format first. Several of my friends started playing Magic some month's ago (commander only).
I don't discuss the issues from here, they will come to this point early enough. So far I didn't had to tell them about the "banlist" because they did not think about playing with one of the cards listed.
From my point of view we've got about 2 ban "styles" that can occur:
- First one, everyone see it's brokeness/stupidity or whatever you like to call it like Worldfire for example. It's getting banned before it get's played heavily.
- Second one, during a legal playtime over "x-months" many player realize how broken/boring the card is like it happened with PT.
But we started do discuss Jhoira-like cards just because [tell me]? Jhoira is legal since it's printed... Yeah there are ways to win with her...
Seriously guys, what's next? Cards like Primal Surge ?
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