Eh, 20 rocks is not really that many in an artifacty deck, I've seen more mana sources for sure.
I would agree that the reason metalworker got unbanned is that it's 1) fairly spikey, 2) fairly narrow, but I think you're taking my point backwards. That has nothing to do with the "too much mana too quickly" argument - metalworker survives because it doesn't really hit any other banlist criteria (while PE perhaps does?). You keep jumping from argument to argument about casual omnipresence vs. mana vs. how spikey the deck is etc etc. Let's get focused.
There are multiple hurdles to clear to get banned; too much mana too fast isn't an auto ban. Obviously otherwise Mana Crypt (which is arguably stronger than Fastbond) would be banned. Fastbond and TA get got because of other reasons (can get into that in another post if desired but I think I see the reasoning there).
What I'm trying to establish is, on the "too much mana too quickly" front that PE is close to Metalworker. Your arguments seem to assume a tuned Metalworker deck and an untuned PE deck, and in that vein I think you are overstating the case for how much more mana Metalworker makes than PE.
* Would it help if I tried to list starting hands that generate critical mana turn 3 with PE vs. Metalworker?
* Where on the spectrum do you think PE is for too much mana too quickly if MW is 7, Fastbond/Crypt 8, TA 9, Channel 10? Or do you disagree with those ballpark numbers?
I disagree with those ballpark numbers. MW is like a 5, and only because it needs very little help to generate a ton of Mana quickly. Even just playing it turn 3 you should be tapping for a lot turn 4 with no other help at all. It's more consistent early even with a lower ceiling, and PEs ceiling comes when you have enough support that its almost combo territory. PE I rate as a 2 or 3 because it can only do so with significant help, but it has a high ceiling once you get into situations that are almost combo level. Were it not for that possible explosiveness, I would not even rate it that high. Turn 5+ is beyond the too early issue.
Academy I'd rate closer to a 7, as it needs more help than fastbond or to get nuts early. Crypt I'd rate a 7 as well, because it's effective on its own early but had a much lower ceiling and a sometimes relevant drawback. Sol Ring and Vault I'd rate about a 5. Black Lotus I'd rate as a 7 because it's one shot. Fastbond I'd rate an 8 or 9, because it's as effective as Lotus or crypt at immediately ramping you but has more long term upside. Again, this is all without much help. I'm not worried about fastbond comboing with searching your library for 5 lands or with crucible of worlds and Armageddon, or grabbing lotus out of the yard.
I also fundamentally disagree with your stance that we should be discussing only one facet at a time, because when a card isn't a clear "this ***** needs the ban hammer" 10/10 in one category you need to look at multiple categories at once. So look at metalworker again: it probably got unbanned because it was only hitting the too much too fast category, and only hitting it as hard as numerous unbanned cards that see more play. There are numerous cards that hit, say, the problematic game states category as 7s but don't hit any other categories so they stay unbanned. Yet there are also cards that hit medium high in a few categories, not high enough in any one to get banned but high enough in enough to get banned. Prophet I think fell into this category. It's not overwhelming a problem in any issue, but it is significant enough of a problem in problematic game states and problematic casual omnipresence, and a moderate to mild problem in too much Mana and interacts poorly with the format, to be banned. Not discussing it all holistically will result in the decision that a card shouldn't be banned when it actually should be. In regards to PE, arguing one at a time would help my position that it isn't banworthy, but it's still wrong. It could also result in people pointing at cards that are banned which are only hitting one category about as hard as PE and asking why that's banned but PE isn't, without understanding that it is the degree to which the card hits other categories that pushed it over the top. If PE is like a 2 or 3 on too much Mana, and Prophet is like a 3 or 4 ( lower ceiling again, but very easy to use, as coming out a turn or two early, say based on a Sol ring, will jump you more Mana than PE with the same small amount of help), you'd see that neither are banworthy for that, but fail to see that Prophet hits other categories in the medium high to high range.
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I think it's very helpful to address each criteria separately and then look after we've established an equal understanding. right now you and I disagree on basically every point, so there's no way we can have a fruitful discussion on the holistic view.
I think it's more problematically casually omnipresent than you, I think it's more of a mana issue than you, and I think it creates more undesirable game states than you. So whenever I try to nudge one of those dials you pull out the other and it gets muddled.
Respectfully I disagree with your ratings substantially--placing Fastbond as 4 points worse than Sol Ring or 2 worse than Mana crypt is just wrong imho. 4 lands + Fastbond means you have 2 or 3 business spells; Crypt can make 1 land hands keepable, but Fastbond is only keepable with 3+ lands and those hands rapidly get bad.
Tolarian Academy as well allows for significantly more consistently explosive hands than Fastbond.
Where Fastbond beats Tolarian Academy for broken-ness is on problematic casual omnipresence - because it's significantly more powerful in the long game and will be played in far more decks.
And that's why we have to talk about stuff point by point because you're blending ideas about how many decks stuff goes into into the "too much mana too quickly" discussion.
Obviously we completely disagree on how much mana PE makes vs. Metalworker. I don't know how we even approach that discussion when I have no idea what the metrics are. The goalposts feel like they're constantly moving there. There are hundreds of hands that represent turn 3 or 4 kills critical mass mana with PE. It happens constantly. T2 Grim Monolith will kill t3 sometimes. Basically any combination of +3 mana on turn 3 is potentially lethal.
If we're that far off I doubt we're going to come to any movement of ideas much less agreement so I'll bow out.
I have looked at tons of decks on Edhrec, looked at my friends decks, etc. I regularly see counts in excess of 15. Usually less CEDH decks that want to mulligan less aggressively. It doesn't really matter much; it slightly increases the T1 and T2 chance to play tons of rocks, but the chance is there regardless.
I think your perspective may be warped by a few such decks existing, making it seem like that's the norm. I think I have seen exactly one above 10, and that was super artifact heavy.
What generals on EDHrec are showing above 15 for an average decklist?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I'm not looking at average decklists I'm looking at pretty good ones with paradox engine in them. Lots of medium decks without paradox engine run fewer. Most strong PE decks are running >12 and sometimes more.
It seems like "20+" is a tiny bit of hyperbole I was just operating from memory but running every broken rock plus all the signets is at the very least pretty common And Enlightened Tutor + Vampiric Tutor tend to make it functionally +2 if needed.
Basically every PE deck runs enough to see 2 ramp spells within the first 10 cards at a high rate:
12 ~ 35%
15 ~ 46%
18 ~ 57%
Gonna try a little more rigorous math assessment to compare MW + PW just for funzies--
Metalworker math for fun-
t1 ramp spell OR grim monolith - 0.444
metalworker or 1 of ET/VT - 0.229
~ 0.102, 10.2%
--Note, this drops of precipitously if you start trying to factor in having 3+ other artifacts for a crazy turn.
Assuming you have:
40 artifacts in deck, and you have seen metalworker + ramp spell already, that means you have 38 left
With 38 artifacts, 97 cards in deck, and 8 cards to see your odds of 3+ of those being artifacts is 67%, so if I'm doing that right it means that your odds of an explosive Metalworker turn are somewhere in the vicinity of: 6.83%
But I'm not sure I did that one right!
More refined paradox engine math with carified assumptions;
-Going off requires 6 mana by turn 3 + paradox engine
-achieving 6 mana by turn 3 requires, with some simplification:
mana vault = (0.08)
grim monolith = (0.08)
mana crypt or sol ring (0.155) + 2 CMC rock or worn powerstone or thran dynamo (assuming 6, 0.4) = (0.062)
ancient tomb (.08) + worn powerstone (.08) = (.0064)
mox diamond or chrome mox (.155) + worn Powerstone (.08) = (0.0124)
MISC - any 3 specific cards, e.g. (mox opal + mox Diamond + chrome mox) = .00512, let's assume there are 5 combinations like this at minimum, so: ( .00256)
~ 0.24, not counting any things i didn't think of
+ odds of having paradox engine (or vamp or ET) - .229
total - ~prob 0.055 (5.5%)
Feel free to correct my math I'm not an expert, but feels pretty close.
My guess is overall PE likelihood of an explosive PE turn is probably around 6% by turn 3 with a reasonably tuned deck.
Comparing to Metalworker's odds, that's not really that far off I don't think. They're both in the same rough scope assuming I didn't screw something up that makes it an order of magnitude off (<10%).
Obviously I didn't correct for stuff like not having enough lands or metalworker missing on artifacts etc, but I think it's order of magnitude close
I'm not looking at average decklists I'm looking at pretty good ones with paradox engine in them. Lots of medium decks without paradox engine run fewer. Most strong PE decks are running >12 and sometimes more.
It seems like "20+" is a tiny bit of hyperbole I was just operating from memory but running every broken rock plus all the signets is at the very least pretty common And Enlightened Tutor + Vampiric Tutor tend to make it functionally +2 if needed.
Basically every PE deck runs enough to see 2 ramp spells within the first 10 cards at a high rate:
12 ~ 35%
15 ~ 46%
18 ~ 57%
Gonna try a little more rigorous math assessment to compare MW + PW just for funzies--
Metalworker math for fun-
t1 ramp spell OR grim monolith - 0.444
metalworker or 1 of ET/VT - 0.229
~ 0.102, 10.2%
--Note, this drops of precipitously if you start trying to factor in having 3+ other artifacts for a crazy turn.
Assuming you have:
40 artifacts in deck, and you have seen metalworker + ramp spell already, that means you have 38 left
With 38 artifacts, 97 cards in deck, and 8 cards to see your odds of 3+ of those being artifacts is 67%, so if I'm doing that right it means that your odds of an explosive Metalworker turn are somewhere in the vicinity of: 6.83%
But I'm not sure I did that one right!
More refined paradox engine math with carified assumptions;
-Going off requires 6 mana by turn 3 + paradox engine
-achieving 6 mana by turn 3 requires, with some simplification:
mana vault = (0.08)
grim monolith = (0.08)
mana crypt or sol ring (0.155) + 2 CMC rock or worn powerstone or thran dynamo (assuming 6, 0.4) = (0.062)
ancient tomb (.08) + worn powerstone (.08) = (.0064)
mox diamond or chrome mox (.155) + worn Powerstone (.08) = (0.0124)
MISC - any 3 specific cards, e.g. (mox opal + mox Diamond + chrome mox) = .00512, let's assume there are 5 combinations like this at minimum, so: ( .00256)
~ 0.24, not counting any things i didn't think of
+ odds of having paradox engine (or vamp or ET) - .229
total - ~prob 0.055 (5.5%)
Feel free to correct my math I'm not an expert, but feels pretty close.
My guess is overall PE likelihood of an explosive PE turn is probably around 6% by turn 3 with a reasonably tuned deck.
Comparing to Metalworker's odds, that's not really that far off I don't think. They're both in the same rough scope assuming I didn't screw something up that makes it an order of magnitude off (<10%).
Obviously I didn't correct for stuff like not having enough lands or metalworker missing on artifacts etc, but I think it's order of magnitude close
You keep missing the point that once you've changed your deck to maximize the number of rocks you run, greatly in excess of the norm, specifically to make the most out of PE, you've moved out of the too much Mana too fast argument entirely and into "it's a combo" territory. You aren't looking at what the card does normally, but what it does when you set out to combo with it. If that was the criteria, then earth craft, food chain, and worldgorger dragon would be banned for too much too fast.
Im also not moving the goal posts. What I'm doing is arguing that even when all the criteria are taken together I don't think it warrants a ban. A lot of the points we just disagree on, whether by nature or degree. Taking all the criteria together makes me more sympathetic to the ban argument because I see it popping up in a number of criteria to moderate or moderately low degrees. Looking at any single one I'd say "no way this is banworthy". Looking at them all together and I say "this isn't quite banworthy, but the RC should be keeping an eye on it because if it moves up in one or two of the criteria it might be".
I personally think you are overestimating it's prevelance of play because it's in your meta. My own experience is the opposite of yours, so I look it up on sites like edhrec and see that reality probably somewhere in between, with it being reasonably popular but not omnipresent. I also see that it tends to show up in competitive or near competitive lists, where it is also at it's most effective. This by definition precludes casual omnipresence, because a card has to be showing up at least as much in more casual decks to check this off. Prophet of Kruphix was the opposite: it only had a mild to moderate impact on cEDH but was absolutely everywhere in casual. PEs ceiling is higher, it is a better card in better decks, but that doesn't matter, as it's the impact on casual that the RC takes into account.
So when I point out that the average deck is not going to be able to slot in PE and make it go nuts, and you counter by providing a list of competitive decks where PE is nuts, it is not moving the goalposts to point out that doesn't really matter because it isn't heavily ran in casual and lower power decks.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm using the more competitive decks simply to illustrate the too much mana too fast argument, since I used the same quality of deck to compare metalworker (playing all the good rocks). I don't think you can discuss the "too much mana too fast" through the lens of "problematic casual omnipresence" --
That is, you cannot assume that the "too much mana" criteria must be "too much mana in the average deck."
So that's what I mean by you moving the goalpost - you seem to be saying that in order for PE to produce too much mana too quickly it must do so in a medium deck instead of a strongly tailored deck. The numbers seem to show that in a strong deck that MW and PE are fairly close in terms of busted mana production.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Wait are we talking about PE, or Metalworker. You said we should focus, but that seems a split issue.
I've been comparing Metalworker to PE for a while because it's the most clearcut example we have of something that is borderline bannable based almost entirely off its mana production (since it's a niche card on the RL that only produces mana and is quite rare we can safely assume no one ever thought it would achieve problematic casual omnipresence or undesirable game states).
The reason I started down this track is because OneRing brought up Channel as the metric to use for busted mana production and I corrected him that there are four cards that've been on there for that (channel, tolarian academy, fastbond and metalworker)
The focus for me right now is establishing just how bad PE is based on its mana production alone. We've got numbers ranging from 0 to 7 depending on how you rank stuff, so opinion is still quite split.
After discussion my scale is currently (for only mana production)
Channel - 10/10
Tolarian Academy - 8/10
Fastbond (Mana Crypt as well) - 7/10
Sol Ring, Mana Vault - ~6/10
Metalworker, Paradox Engine - 5/10
OR made some good points on that subject, enough to change some of my thoughts.
The earliest you're most likely playing a Dox Engine is T3 and it requires something like T1 land, mana dork, T2 land, signet (or on t1 if you had it), T3 land dox engine, and that taps you out and costs you 6 out of the 10 cards you've drawn up until that point in the game. So for you to win from there you would require one of the 5 cards you'll have on t4 to be enough gas to keep you drawing or a combo piece.
Sure, you could get it out faster with Crypt, Vault, Sol Ring, etc, but that first one is a much better argument for makes too much mana too quickly than something that will in general be a turn 4+ problem, with a whole round (3->4) to deal with it.
I literally put those cards above pe on my list for tmm2q.
I'm not saying pe is bannable for tmm2q. It's on the spectrum and I want to establish where because its complex.
I enumerated most of the hands that get you t3 with 6 mans in a rock deck. If you want to do mana dorks feel free. It's probably more common.
I'm using the more competitive decks simply to illustrate the too much mana too fast argument, since I used the same quality of deck to compare metalworker (playing all the good rocks). I don't think you can discuss the "too much mana too fast" through the lens of "problematic casual omnipresence" --
That is, you cannot assume that the "too much mana" criteria must be "too much mana in the average deck."
So that's what I mean by you moving the goalpost - you seem to be saying that in order for PE to produce too much mana too quickly it must do so in a medium deck instead of a strongly tailored deck. The numbers seem to show that in a strong deck that MW and PE are fairly close in terms of busted mana production.
You've demonstrated that well. That doesn't advance the argument that PE should be banned, as MW got unbanned. MW got unbanned in large part because of how it only started hitting those levels of Mana acceleration in specific decks and couldn't be relied to do so just anywhere. The goalposts weren't moved, they were just never at MW. MW is a kick that falls 10 yards short.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
And you're assigning a conclusion that I never even discussed. Metalworker is just a good example we can reasonably compare for mana explosiveness.
It being unbanned but previously banned is both an argument for and against PE--against because PE is equally or less mana explosive, but for because PE is far more problematic in other ways than Metalworker, but almost as explosive.
All I'm trying to do is establish a TMM2Q score which I think I have, somewhere around 4 to 5/10 - similar to metalworker but not as bad as mana vault or sol ring. Probably in the vicinity of grim monolith as well.
PE TMM2Q score: 5/10 (hell, I could be convinced on 4.5/10 I guess, but it's definitely up there)
If we all agree on that or at least close enough for government work, which do you want me to hit next? Or if you don't care I'm fine to let it rest
The other two items I think PE hits on at least some level:
* Creates undesirable game states
* Problematic casual omnipresence
And you're assigning a conclusion that I never even discussed. Metalworker is just a good example we can reasonably compare for mana explosiveness.
It being unbanned but previously banned is both an argument for and against PE--against because PE is equally or less mana explosive, but for because PE is far more problematic in other ways than Metalworker, but almost as explosive.
All I'm trying to do is establish a TMM2Q score which I think I have, somewhere around 4 to 5/10 - similar to metalworker but not as bad as mana vault or sol ring. Probably in the vicinity of grim monolith as well.
PE TMM2Q score: 5/10 (hell, I could be convinced on 4.5/10 I guess, but it's definitely up there)
If we all agree on that or at least close enough for government work, which do you want me to hit next? Or if you don't care I'm fine to let it rest
The other two items I think PE hits on at least some level:
* Creates undesirable game states
* Problematic casual omnipresence
Of course it's made up, it's his opinion on how hard each card hits the criteria. Any attempt to quantify it is going to be made up, but a 1-10 scale is pretty basic and easy to understand.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
And you're assigning a conclusion that I never even discussed. Metalworker is just a good example we can reasonably compare for mana explosiveness.
It being unbanned but previously banned is both an argument for and against PE--against because PE is equally or less mana explosive, but for because PE is far more problematic in other ways than Metalworker, but almost as explosive.
All I'm trying to do is establish a TMM2Q score which I think I have, somewhere around 4 to 5/10 - similar to metalworker but not as bad as mana vault or sol ring. Probably in the vicinity of grim monolith as well.
PE TMM2Q score: 5/10 (hell, I could be convinced on 4.5/10 I guess, but it's definitely up there)
If we all agree on that or at least close enough for government work, which do you want me to hit next? Or if you don't care I'm fine to let it rest
The other two items I think PE hits on at least some level:
* Creates undesirable game states
* Problematic casual omnipresence
Unless both of those are 7+, which I highly doubt, then it's probably not banworthy. And a colorless card that isn't seeing more play than seedborn muse, and which shows up most in cEDH decks, is simply not omnipresent in casual play. At most you could rate that a generous 5, if we just agree it's problematic. Of coursez it isn't actually hitting most of the things that are considered problematic under this criteria, which has been discussed ad nauseum in comparison to Prophet, Sylvan, and Prime Time, so without that it would come in at somewhere in the 2-4 range.
Weve also previously discussed problematic game states. Again, this is maybe a 4. Mostly because combo wins aren't considered problematic. Not by me, by the RC, because it would be impossible to manage the banlist playing combo whack a mole. It's non combo applications can be moderately problematic when people durdle. Simply using it for value isn't that bad (getting some extra Mana and tap effects each turn), but durdling around trying to win without a way to do so is. Fortunately, these failed combo states are relatively rare, because people trying to combo usually know what they are doing. Unfortunately, throwing it into a deck with a lot of tap effects and ways to cast a lot of spells can lead to situations where a player can take a ton of actions that don't actually win them the game, and leave enough room that other players have a reason to keep playing. If you go infinite, or at least close enough that your showing a win, the number of actions is irrelevant: you've just hit the combo, you've won, time for your opponents to scoop. Still, the durdle state is problematic enough to warrant a 4.
Overall, this ends up being a card the is powerful and annoying, but not over the line. It doesn't hit high enough in any category to deserve a ban, nor does it hit high enough across multiple categories. Should it start to get played more casually, that would bump it up on casual omnipresence. Should people start adding cards like bribery to search up PE, that would add a couple point on that as well.that could get us to a 7 or an 8 on problematic casual omnipresence. I'd imagine that with it appearing in more casual decks, it will enable durdle mode more often as less experienced players think they need to play it and then start adding untap effects for it without actually making it a consistent combo. That could raise problematic game states to a 5 or 6.
So with to much Mana at a 4 or 5, problematic game states at a 5 or 6, and problematic casual omnipresence at 7 or 8, I'd see that as open for a ban similar to Prophet. It would be close on problematic casual with moderate scores on the other two pushing it over the edge.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I find most of that pretty reasonable. I'd largely agree with the 5 on omnipresence after much discussion. I think i tend to run into the spikier side of casuals so maybe it feels more represented.
I think I still lean towards it being closer to prophet in undesirable game states but that's probably just me. It's surprising how often it creates a board state wherein there is a combo to be had if you durdle hard enough.
Part of that is that it strongly synerizes with a ton of very good cards. Comboing with mana rocks is a pretty dangerous thing as evidenced by stuff like tolarisn academy and tinker and balance being on the list.
I am a bit less certain than before I'll admit but I have yet to play a game where i enjoyed seeing it.
It does also concern me that it may "go mainstream." Achieving PCO (problematic casual omnipresence) would probably not be fun with this card.
I think we've pretty much said it all, appreciate the thoughtful dialog.
---------------------------------------------
The thing with Prophet vs. PE from an undesirable game states perspective, after noodling on it, is that when someone durdles out with PE it's very time consuming all at once instead of spread out.
Prophet was quite annoying with the "ok let me do my stuff at your upkeep" but for the most part it wasn't that crazy unless you were playing Maelstrom Wanderer.
The turns where PE durdles off are just egregiously annoying. Everyone sits there watching them do it.
Thankfully that is less frequent but it's much worse when it does happen. Especially in less optimized decks that aren't going to go off as triumphantly. I saw a guy put half his deck onto the battlefield and then lose to an overloaded rift once (in a game I was not in, thankfully) - but the players sat there for like 10 minutes watching him play crap, which was awful.
I guess it really will come down to how common that is in reality; I haven't seen that kind of durdle very often but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth every time.
I find most of that pretty reasonable. I'd largely agree with the 5 on omnipresence after much discussion. I think i tend to run into the spikier side of casuals so maybe it feels more represented.
I think I still lean towards it being closer to prophet in undesirable game states but that's probably just me. It's surprising how often it creates a board state wherein there is a combo to be had if you durdle hard enough.
Part of that is that it strongly synerizes with a ton of very good cards. Comboing with mana rocks is a pretty dangerous thing as evidenced by stuff like tolarisn academy and tinker and balance being on the list.
I am a bit less certain than before I'll admit but I have yet to play a game where i enjoyed seeing it.
It does also concern me that it may "go mainstream." Achieving PCO (problematic casual omnipresence) would probably not be fun with this card.
I think we've pretty much said it all, appreciate the thoughtful dialog.
---------------------------------------------
The thing with Prophet vs. PE from an undesirable game states perspective, after noodling on it, is that when someone durdles out with PE it's very time consuming all at once instead of spread out.
Prophet was quite annoying with the "ok let me do my stuff at your upkeep" but for the most part it wasn't that crazy unless you were playing Maelstrom Wanderer.
The turns where PE durdles off are just egregiously annoying. Everyone sits there watching them do it.
Thankfully that is less frequent but it's much worse when it does happen. Especially in less optimized decks that aren't going to go off as triumphantly. I saw a guy put half his deck onto the battlefield and then lose to an overloaded rift once (in a game I was not in, thankfully) - but the players sat there for like 10 minutes watching him play crap, which was awful.
I guess it really will come down to how common that is in reality; I haven't seen that kind of durdle very often but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth every time.
Oddly enough, I think we're mostly seeing eye to eye on this at this point. I rate it as high as I do on problematic game states precisely because of how bad it is when someone who doesn't know what they are doing takes it into durdle mode. The relative rarity of that, on the other hand, keeps me from ranking that any higher. If PE mainly hit the board and then went to durdle town, I'd be in favor of a ban just based on that, ala Shaharazad. As it stands, when I do see it it's usually either a combo win or a value engine. I play it in Reveka Wizard Savant as a way to actually make use of her, and I'm either going to get a couple of activations a turn, without a ton of things untapping, or I go off and combo out. For comboing out, I'd usually rather have mind over matter because it needs less help. It's certainly no more durdly there than Palinchron is. This is just an example of where PE can out in honest work, and I've played against similar. The existence of such options impacts the RCs thinking in cards I've noticed, so I apply it when rating problematic casual omnipresence and game states. I give lower ratings if the card has other uses besides the problematic ones and actually gets used for that. PE being mostly used for combo or value and relatively rarely for durdling reduces it's problematic nature, not by making the problems it causes less severe but by making them less common.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Yeah, I think we mostly see differently at this point is slight differences on how bad it is when it happens, and bigger differences on how often it happens. It happens regularly enough to me that I'd ban it just based off that
This may be a strange interpretation and not line with the RC's thinking, but my thought is that if something is primarily used as a combo enabler, the format is far less likely to miss it (since most combo players gravitate toward the more competitive side).
So I would, personally, be quicker on the banhammer with a card like PE than Prophet - Prophet was legitimately a really fun card to play and there are ways in which even I miss it. It just wasn't fun for others and got out of hand.
The "Fun" uses of PE are mostly the exception for me, unfortunately. When I see it it's usually either a durdle machine or a combo kill, which makes it basically pointless to me. I have seen some interesting uses of it, but they often steer too far into durdle territory for my tastes.
I think that your line of thinking is probably more in line with the RC to be honest, they probably see lots of fun applications of PE - and there surely are a few - and are like: "We can fix the annoying parts by just not playing with the spikes, so it's fine."
I am hopping into this discussion a bit late, but if PE just leads to a combo and the end of the game, isn't it similar to many other cards that pretty much only exist to combo? PoK is not a combo card so I do not see the point in comparing the two.
PE doesn't need fun applications. It is like Food Chain. There can be fun applications, but normally people are just comboing off and that is okay.
It is not okay if it runs the format. I don't think it does.
I am hopping into this discussion a bit late, but if PE just leads to a combo and the end of the game, isn't it similar to many other cards that pretty much only exist to combo? PoK is not a combo card so I do not see the point in comparing the two.
PE doesn't need fun applications. It is like Food Chain. There can be fun applications, but normally people are just comboing off and that is okay.
It is not okay if it runs the format. I don't think it does.
So I'll summarize really quickly:
* PE is actually a very efficient way to make a ton of mana pretty quickly, so it is a potential offender on the too much mana too quickly criteria. We largely concluded that is not a critical enough issue to warrant banning on its own, but is comparable to some close offenders. (Summary 4 to 5/10 on that scale)
* PE creates undesirable game states, though no one seems willing to say this is absolutely at a bannable level (except maybe me, and I'm on the fence) - ratings range from 2 to 7/10 on this scale, so no clear agreement.
(My editorial: When PE creates a bad game, it is a BAAAAAD game. Worse than Prophet for me. But it doesn't seem to do it as much since it combos out more)
* PE and problematic casual omnipresence - in my experience it's pretty common, almost everyone I run into has at least one PE deck, but most people and EDHrec seem to suggest it's closer to say, Rings of Brighthearth or Doubling Season than Prophet or Sylvan Primordial.
The combo thing isn't really part of the picture for most people, except that there's a general sentiment that because it's primarily a spike combo card it's less likely to reach critical mass like PoK did. I can't completely disagree with that, though I guess I see the card more than most people.
Regarding undesirable game states - I am not sure that durdling forever without winning is an undesirable game state. Stopping people from being able to play is undesirable. In that sense, Winter Orb seems like a bigger offender, but is still tolerable.
I played PE in standard. If you know what you are doing, even without infinite combos, you should be able to end the game. But, in EDH, it is so easy to go infinite I would have a very serious conversation with people in your meta who are just wasting time.
I find it strange that your meta has so much PE. It is a spikey meta? I used to play at a LGS for prizes, and though I have not played there in over 2 years, I would presume that people all have 1-2 PE decks with them every night. I would call that meta a 90% meta.
cEDH plays a lot of PE, but I do not think cEDH should be considered.
I disagree with those ballpark numbers. MW is like a 5, and only because it needs very little help to generate a ton of Mana quickly. Even just playing it turn 3 you should be tapping for a lot turn 4 with no other help at all. It's more consistent early even with a lower ceiling, and PEs ceiling comes when you have enough support that its almost combo territory. PE I rate as a 2 or 3 because it can only do so with significant help, but it has a high ceiling once you get into situations that are almost combo level. Were it not for that possible explosiveness, I would not even rate it that high. Turn 5+ is beyond the too early issue.
Academy I'd rate closer to a 7, as it needs more help than fastbond or to get nuts early. Crypt I'd rate a 7 as well, because it's effective on its own early but had a much lower ceiling and a sometimes relevant drawback. Sol Ring and Vault I'd rate about a 5. Black Lotus I'd rate as a 7 because it's one shot. Fastbond I'd rate an 8 or 9, because it's as effective as Lotus or crypt at immediately ramping you but has more long term upside. Again, this is all without much help. I'm not worried about fastbond comboing with searching your library for 5 lands or with crucible of worlds and Armageddon, or grabbing lotus out of the yard.
I also fundamentally disagree with your stance that we should be discussing only one facet at a time, because when a card isn't a clear "this ***** needs the ban hammer" 10/10 in one category you need to look at multiple categories at once. So look at metalworker again: it probably got unbanned because it was only hitting the too much too fast category, and only hitting it as hard as numerous unbanned cards that see more play. There are numerous cards that hit, say, the problematic game states category as 7s but don't hit any other categories so they stay unbanned. Yet there are also cards that hit medium high in a few categories, not high enough in any one to get banned but high enough in enough to get banned. Prophet I think fell into this category. It's not overwhelming a problem in any issue, but it is significant enough of a problem in problematic game states and problematic casual omnipresence, and a moderate to mild problem in too much Mana and interacts poorly with the format, to be banned. Not discussing it all holistically will result in the decision that a card shouldn't be banned when it actually should be. In regards to PE, arguing one at a time would help my position that it isn't banworthy, but it's still wrong. It could also result in people pointing at cards that are banned which are only hitting one category about as hard as PE and asking why that's banned but PE isn't, without understanding that it is the degree to which the card hits other categories that pushed it over the top. If PE is like a 2 or 3 on too much Mana, and Prophet is like a 3 or 4 ( lower ceiling again, but very easy to use, as coming out a turn or two early, say based on a Sol ring, will jump you more Mana than PE with the same small amount of help), you'd see that neither are banworthy for that, but fail to see that Prophet hits other categories in the medium high to high range.
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I think it's more problematically casually omnipresent than you, I think it's more of a mana issue than you, and I think it creates more undesirable game states than you. So whenever I try to nudge one of those dials you pull out the other and it gets muddled.
Respectfully I disagree with your ratings substantially--placing Fastbond as 4 points worse than Sol Ring or 2 worse than Mana crypt is just wrong imho. 4 lands + Fastbond means you have 2 or 3 business spells; Crypt can make 1 land hands keepable, but Fastbond is only keepable with 3+ lands and those hands rapidly get bad.
Tolarian Academy as well allows for significantly more consistently explosive hands than Fastbond.
Where Fastbond beats Tolarian Academy for broken-ness is on problematic casual omnipresence - because it's significantly more powerful in the long game and will be played in far more decks.
And that's why we have to talk about stuff point by point because you're blending ideas about how many decks stuff goes into into the "too much mana too quickly" discussion.
Obviously we completely disagree on how much mana PE makes vs. Metalworker. I don't know how we even approach that discussion when I have no idea what the metrics are. The goalposts feel like they're constantly moving there. There are hundreds of hands that represent turn 3 or 4 kills critical mass mana with PE. It happens constantly. T2 Grim Monolith will kill t3 sometimes. Basically any combination of +3 mana on turn 3 is potentially lethal.
If we're that far off I doubt we're going to come to any movement of ideas much less agreement so I'll bow out.
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What generals on EDHrec are showing above 15 for an average decklist?
something like:
sharuum https://edhrec.com/deckpreview/07/ff/08650ad3 (~15 rocks/dorks)
Sisay - https://edhrec.com/deckpreview/5f/dd/d164efeb (18+ rocks/dorks)
sen triplets (my buddy's list): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1650724#paper - 18 rocks not counting trinket mage but counting voltaic key
jhoira (https://edhrec.com/deckpreview/ea/f7/ca67227b) with 16ish
It seems like "20+" is a tiny bit of hyperbole I was just operating from memory but running every broken rock plus all the signets is at the very least pretty common
Basically every PE deck runs enough to see 2 ramp spells within the first 10 cards at a high rate:
12 ~ 35%
15 ~ 46%
18 ~ 57%
Gonna try a little more rigorous math assessment to compare MW + PW just for funzies--
Metalworker math for fun-
t1 ramp spell OR grim monolith - 0.444
metalworker or 1 of ET/VT - 0.229
~ 0.102, 10.2%
--Note, this drops of precipitously if you start trying to factor in having 3+ other artifacts for a crazy turn.
Assuming you have:
40 artifacts in deck, and you have seen metalworker + ramp spell already, that means you have 38 left
With 38 artifacts, 97 cards in deck, and 8 cards to see your odds of 3+ of those being artifacts is 67%, so if I'm doing that right it means that your odds of an explosive Metalworker turn are somewhere in the vicinity of:
6.83%
But I'm not sure I did that one right!
More refined paradox engine math with carified assumptions;
-Going off requires 6 mana by turn 3 + paradox engine
-achieving 6 mana by turn 3 requires, with some simplification:
mana vault = (0.08)
grim monolith = (0.08)
mana crypt or sol ring (0.155) + 2 CMC rock or worn powerstone or thran dynamo (assuming 6, 0.4) = (0.062)
ancient tomb (.08) + worn powerstone (.08) = (.0064)
mox diamond or chrome mox (.155) + worn Powerstone (.08) = (0.0124)
MISC - any 3 specific cards, e.g. (mox opal + mox Diamond + chrome mox) = .00512, let's assume there are 5 combinations like this at minimum, so: ( .00256)
~ 0.24, not counting any things i didn't think of
+ odds of having paradox engine (or vamp or ET) - .229
total - ~prob 0.055 (5.5%)
Feel free to correct my math I'm not an expert, but feels pretty close.
My guess is overall PE likelihood of an explosive PE turn is probably around 6% by turn 3 with a reasonably tuned deck.
Comparing to Metalworker's odds, that's not really that far off I don't think. They're both in the same rough scope assuming I didn't screw something up that makes it an order of magnitude off (<10%).
Obviously I didn't correct for stuff like not having enough lands or metalworker missing on artifacts etc, but I think it's order of magnitude close
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
You keep missing the point that once you've changed your deck to maximize the number of rocks you run, greatly in excess of the norm, specifically to make the most out of PE, you've moved out of the too much Mana too fast argument entirely and into "it's a combo" territory. You aren't looking at what the card does normally, but what it does when you set out to combo with it. If that was the criteria, then earth craft, food chain, and worldgorger dragon would be banned for too much too fast.
Im also not moving the goal posts. What I'm doing is arguing that even when all the criteria are taken together I don't think it warrants a ban. A lot of the points we just disagree on, whether by nature or degree. Taking all the criteria together makes me more sympathetic to the ban argument because I see it popping up in a number of criteria to moderate or moderately low degrees. Looking at any single one I'd say "no way this is banworthy". Looking at them all together and I say "this isn't quite banworthy, but the RC should be keeping an eye on it because if it moves up in one or two of the criteria it might be".
I personally think you are overestimating it's prevelance of play because it's in your meta. My own experience is the opposite of yours, so I look it up on sites like edhrec and see that reality probably somewhere in between, with it being reasonably popular but not omnipresent. I also see that it tends to show up in competitive or near competitive lists, where it is also at it's most effective. This by definition precludes casual omnipresence, because a card has to be showing up at least as much in more casual decks to check this off. Prophet of Kruphix was the opposite: it only had a mild to moderate impact on cEDH but was absolutely everywhere in casual. PEs ceiling is higher, it is a better card in better decks, but that doesn't matter, as it's the impact on casual that the RC takes into account.
So when I point out that the average deck is not going to be able to slot in PE and make it go nuts, and you counter by providing a list of competitive decks where PE is nuts, it is not moving the goalposts to point out that doesn't really matter because it isn't heavily ran in casual and lower power decks.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That is, you cannot assume that the "too much mana" criteria must be "too much mana in the average deck."
So that's what I mean by you moving the goalpost - you seem to be saying that in order for PE to produce too much mana too quickly it must do so in a medium deck instead of a strongly tailored deck. The numbers seem to show that in a strong deck that MW and PE are fairly close in terms of busted mana production.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I've been comparing Metalworker to PE for a while because it's the most clearcut example we have of something that is borderline bannable based almost entirely off its mana production (since it's a niche card on the RL that only produces mana and is quite rare we can safely assume no one ever thought it would achieve problematic casual omnipresence or undesirable game states).
The reason I started down this track is because OneRing brought up Channel as the metric to use for busted mana production and I corrected him that there are four cards that've been on there for that (channel, tolarian academy, fastbond and metalworker)
The focus for me right now is establishing just how bad PE is based on its mana production alone. We've got numbers ranging from 0 to 7 depending on how you rank stuff, so opinion is still quite split.
After discussion my scale is currently (for only mana production)
Channel - 10/10
Tolarian Academy - 8/10
Fastbond (Mana Crypt as well) - 7/10
Sol Ring, Mana Vault - ~6/10
Metalworker, Paradox Engine - 5/10
OR made some good points on that subject, enough to change some of my thoughts.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Sure, you could get it out faster with Crypt, Vault, Sol Ring, etc, but that first one is a much better argument for makes too much mana too quickly than something that will in general be a turn 4+ problem, with a whole round (3->4) to deal with it.
I'm not saying pe is bannable for tmm2q. It's on the spectrum and I want to establish where because its complex.
I enumerated most of the hands that get you t3 with 6 mans in a rock deck. If you want to do mana dorks feel free. It's probably more common.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
You've demonstrated that well. That doesn't advance the argument that PE should be banned, as MW got unbanned. MW got unbanned in large part because of how it only started hitting those levels of Mana acceleration in specific decks and couldn't be relied to do so just anywhere. The goalposts weren't moved, they were just never at MW. MW is a kick that falls 10 yards short.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It being unbanned but previously banned is both an argument for and against PE--against because PE is equally or less mana explosive, but for because PE is far more problematic in other ways than Metalworker, but almost as explosive.
All I'm trying to do is establish a TMM2Q score which I think I have, somewhere around 4 to 5/10 - similar to metalworker but not as bad as mana vault or sol ring. Probably in the vicinity of grim monolith as well.
PE TMM2Q score: 5/10 (hell, I could be convinced on 4.5/10 I guess, but it's definitely up there)
If we all agree on that or at least close enough for government work, which do you want me to hit next? Or if you don't care I'm fine to let it rest
The other two items I think PE hits on at least some level:
* Creates undesirable game states
* Problematic casual omnipresence
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Maybe I missed it, but what is a TMM2Q score?
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Can you explain to me what your purpose is with this barb? Like what do you want to have happen when you say something like this?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Of course it's made up, it's his opinion on how hard each card hits the criteria. Any attempt to quantify it is going to be made up, but a 1-10 scale is pretty basic and easy to understand.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Unless both of those are 7+, which I highly doubt, then it's probably not banworthy. And a colorless card that isn't seeing more play than seedborn muse, and which shows up most in cEDH decks, is simply not omnipresent in casual play. At most you could rate that a generous 5, if we just agree it's problematic. Of coursez it isn't actually hitting most of the things that are considered problematic under this criteria, which has been discussed ad nauseum in comparison to Prophet, Sylvan, and Prime Time, so without that it would come in at somewhere in the 2-4 range.
Weve also previously discussed problematic game states. Again, this is maybe a 4. Mostly because combo wins aren't considered problematic. Not by me, by the RC, because it would be impossible to manage the banlist playing combo whack a mole. It's non combo applications can be moderately problematic when people durdle. Simply using it for value isn't that bad (getting some extra Mana and tap effects each turn), but durdling around trying to win without a way to do so is. Fortunately, these failed combo states are relatively rare, because people trying to combo usually know what they are doing. Unfortunately, throwing it into a deck with a lot of tap effects and ways to cast a lot of spells can lead to situations where a player can take a ton of actions that don't actually win them the game, and leave enough room that other players have a reason to keep playing. If you go infinite, or at least close enough that your showing a win, the number of actions is irrelevant: you've just hit the combo, you've won, time for your opponents to scoop. Still, the durdle state is problematic enough to warrant a 4.
Overall, this ends up being a card the is powerful and annoying, but not over the line. It doesn't hit high enough in any category to deserve a ban, nor does it hit high enough across multiple categories. Should it start to get played more casually, that would bump it up on casual omnipresence. Should people start adding cards like bribery to search up PE, that would add a couple point on that as well.that could get us to a 7 or an 8 on problematic casual omnipresence. I'd imagine that with it appearing in more casual decks, it will enable durdle mode more often as less experienced players think they need to play it and then start adding untap effects for it without actually making it a consistent combo. That could raise problematic game states to a 5 or 6.
So with to much Mana at a 4 or 5, problematic game states at a 5 or 6, and problematic casual omnipresence at 7 or 8, I'd see that as open for a ban similar to Prophet. It would be close on problematic casual with moderate scores on the other two pushing it over the edge.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think I still lean towards it being closer to prophet in undesirable game states but that's probably just me. It's surprising how often it creates a board state wherein there is a combo to be had if you durdle hard enough.
Part of that is that it strongly synerizes with a ton of very good cards. Comboing with mana rocks is a pretty dangerous thing as evidenced by stuff like tolarisn academy and tinker and balance being on the list.
I am a bit less certain than before I'll admit but I have yet to play a game where i enjoyed seeing it.
It does also concern me that it may "go mainstream." Achieving PCO (problematic casual omnipresence) would probably not be fun with this card.
I think we've pretty much said it all, appreciate the thoughtful dialog.
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The thing with Prophet vs. PE from an undesirable game states perspective, after noodling on it, is that when someone durdles out with PE it's very time consuming all at once instead of spread out.
Prophet was quite annoying with the "ok let me do my stuff at your upkeep" but for the most part it wasn't that crazy unless you were playing Maelstrom Wanderer.
The turns where PE durdles off are just egregiously annoying. Everyone sits there watching them do it.
Thankfully that is less frequent but it's much worse when it does happen. Especially in less optimized decks that aren't going to go off as triumphantly. I saw a guy put half his deck onto the battlefield and then lose to an overloaded rift once (in a game I was not in, thankfully) - but the players sat there for like 10 minutes watching him play crap, which was awful.
I guess it really will come down to how common that is in reality; I haven't seen that kind of durdle very often but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth every time.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Oddly enough, I think we're mostly seeing eye to eye on this at this point. I rate it as high as I do on problematic game states precisely because of how bad it is when someone who doesn't know what they are doing takes it into durdle mode. The relative rarity of that, on the other hand, keeps me from ranking that any higher. If PE mainly hit the board and then went to durdle town, I'd be in favor of a ban just based on that, ala Shaharazad. As it stands, when I do see it it's usually either a combo win or a value engine. I play it in Reveka Wizard Savant as a way to actually make use of her, and I'm either going to get a couple of activations a turn, without a ton of things untapping, or I go off and combo out. For comboing out, I'd usually rather have mind over matter because it needs less help. It's certainly no more durdly there than Palinchron is. This is just an example of where PE can out in honest work, and I've played against similar. The existence of such options impacts the RCs thinking in cards I've noticed, so I apply it when rating problematic casual omnipresence and game states. I give lower ratings if the card has other uses besides the problematic ones and actually gets used for that. PE being mostly used for combo or value and relatively rarely for durdling reduces it's problematic nature, not by making the problems it causes less severe but by making them less common.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
This may be a strange interpretation and not line with the RC's thinking, but my thought is that if something is primarily used as a combo enabler, the format is far less likely to miss it (since most combo players gravitate toward the more competitive side).
So I would, personally, be quicker on the banhammer with a card like PE than Prophet - Prophet was legitimately a really fun card to play and there are ways in which even I miss it. It just wasn't fun for others and got out of hand.
The "Fun" uses of PE are mostly the exception for me, unfortunately. When I see it it's usually either a durdle machine or a combo kill, which makes it basically pointless to me. I have seen some interesting uses of it, but they often steer too far into durdle territory for my tastes.
I think that your line of thinking is probably more in line with the RC to be honest, they probably see lots of fun applications of PE - and there surely are a few - and are like: "We can fix the annoying parts by just not playing with the spikes, so it's fine."
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
PE doesn't need fun applications. It is like Food Chain. There can be fun applications, but normally people are just comboing off and that is okay.
It is not okay if it runs the format. I don't think it does.
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So I'll summarize really quickly:
* PE is actually a very efficient way to make a ton of mana pretty quickly, so it is a potential offender on the too much mana too quickly criteria. We largely concluded that is not a critical enough issue to warrant banning on its own, but is comparable to some close offenders. (Summary 4 to 5/10 on that scale)
* PE creates undesirable game states, though no one seems willing to say this is absolutely at a bannable level (except maybe me, and I'm on the fence) - ratings range from 2 to 7/10 on this scale, so no clear agreement.
(My editorial: When PE creates a bad game, it is a BAAAAAD game. Worse than Prophet for me. But it doesn't seem to do it as much since it combos out more)
* PE and problematic casual omnipresence - in my experience it's pretty common, almost everyone I run into has at least one PE deck, but most people and EDHrec seem to suggest it's closer to say, Rings of Brighthearth or Doubling Season than Prophet or Sylvan Primordial.
The combo thing isn't really part of the picture for most people, except that there's a general sentiment that because it's primarily a spike combo card it's less likely to reach critical mass like PoK did. I can't completely disagree with that, though I guess I see the card more than most people.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Regarding undesirable game states - I am not sure that durdling forever without winning is an undesirable game state. Stopping people from being able to play is undesirable. In that sense, Winter Orb seems like a bigger offender, but is still tolerable.
I played PE in standard. If you know what you are doing, even without infinite combos, you should be able to end the game. But, in EDH, it is so easy to go infinite I would have a very serious conversation with people in your meta who are just wasting time.
I find it strange that your meta has so much PE. It is a spikey meta? I used to play at a LGS for prizes, and though I have not played there in over 2 years, I would presume that people all have 1-2 PE decks with them every night. I would call that meta a 90% meta.
cEDH plays a lot of PE, but I do not think cEDH should be considered.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers