We pay attention, and even if we were asleep at the wheel, when cards get spoiled, people message us about them or ask in public spaces like social media. The concerns people have about Razzmatazz are valid--but I might suggest that you can already get your combo cheaper and with fewer moving parts. The thing we have to pay attention to is that it's legendary, meaning it can be a commander and therefore (nearly) always available. We'll see after a period of play what happens, but I suspect that it's like many cards which have come before it--people get flustered when they first see it and then realize it's no Griselbrand.
We pay attention, and even if we were asleep at the wheel, when cards get spoiled, people message us about them or ask in public spaces like social media. The concerns people have about Razzmatazz are valid--but I might suggest that you can already get your combo cheaper and with fewer moving parts. The thing we have to pay attention to is that it's legendary, meaning it can be a commander and therefore (nearly) always available. We'll see after a period of play what happens, but I suspect that it's like many cards which have come before it--people get flustered when they first see it and then realize it's no Griselbrand.
I see Raz as more of a problem at casual tables than in Spiky ones. My take on this card is that at a low enough power level he becomes indistinguishable from Griselbrand because the setup is less likely to be disrupted. I honestly think he's exactly the kind of card that the RC needs to keep a close eye on. Spikes have better options (Sidisi, Undead Vizier, most likely), whereas new players will use this as a general or in the 99 and not realize that it is the reason they are dominating games with a Diabolic Intent every turn.
I'll probably throw this in Sek'kuar for a bit, but I imagine that I will end up taking it out because it will make my deck too linear. Survival of the Fittest already comes close to doing that (and I specifically leave out creature-only combos for that reason), so a way to tutor up that Living Death along with fodder might be a bit much.
Less spiky tables also don't tend to play easy two card combos. It's a nice card that I'll slot into my Vish Kal Blood Arbiter deck, but I doubt it'll be some kind of allstar. I'll probably get a couple tutors out of it and a few swings with an 8/8 flying trampler, but 8 drops are supposed to generate some good value.
I don't agree with the calls for banning it but to think mono-black only has access to creature tokens from BB especially when they have already gotten to 8 mana at least once is foolhardy
Certain decks will absolutely want it. Black tokens or decks that already run Bloodghast or Reassembling Skeleton engines will love this card.
However, otherwise it is hard to go super duper "Better than Diabolic Revelation for 3" good unless you were able to cheat on the mana cost and even then you need to reliably get 2 good cards out of it to feel good about it.
His "worst case" scenario is just to glass-cannony for me to get behind a ban, similar to Craterhoof Behemoth. Players will automatically know what he does, so he'll be targeted right away. I'll give my thoughts on how he would be utilized, and handled, below.
As a general, he can't be cheated* into play, so you're on the hook for that Mana-cost. That means even if you cast him with sac. fodder, you probably won't be reaping the benefits of the tutor until the next turn, it'll be mid-late game by this point, so the other players should already have a threat or an answer of their own. Coupled with the fact that all of the bestadvantagesblackhascostslife, you won't be able to play so loose with your life total banking on a 8-Mana tutor that also costs life.
In the 99, he'll eat removal immediately, even early if reanimated(which, let's be honest here, that's the only way he makes it into a list of 99 or Kaalia) and again, sac. fodder is needed. Is 10 life worth a tutor target?
If you ban him, you might as well ban Demonic Tutor and its brethren.
1) He can technically be cheated into play now with the printing of Command Beacon and some shenanigans.
2) Black can "cheat" things into play by generating mana over actually cheating them into play. Whether it be Culling the WeakLake of the Dead any of the rituals Dark or Cabal or some of the more esoteric cards like Bubbling Muck classic Black doublers, or just Cabal and Urborg.
If someone builds this deck with RazzleDazzle in the Command Zone you can be assured the gameplan will always be to have him in play well before turn 8 or even 7 or 6
1) He can technically be cheated into play now with the printing of Command Beacon and some shenanigans.
Hence the asterisk. Sure, you can "cheat" him out like that, but that's a lot of resources devoted to a not very good strategy. You'll be investing almost as much mana(maybe not after a few returns to the CZ, but that's hardly relevant in this discussion), and a ton of moving parts. I'd rather devote that work to building a board that I can sac. for value, instead of trying to cheat on casting my otherwise 8/8 flying trampler.
2) Black can "cheat" things into play by generating mana over actually cheating them into play. Whether it be Culling the WeakLake of the Dead any of the rituals Dark or Cabal or some of the more esoteric cards like Bubbling Muck classic Black doublers, or just Cabal and Urborg.
If someone builds this deck with RazzleDazzle in the Command Zone you can be assured the gameplan will always be to have him in play well before turn 8 or even 7 or 6
The same can be said of really any other card with a high cost that happens to be black or is given access to it, doesn't mean it should be banned. There is a laundry list of cards that should be disscussed because they can be cheated into play via B shenanigans, mana production included.
Still, you're going to ritual/ramp into him and do... what? 8 Mana, single card tutors aren't good, and this one has hoops. He'll never get online soon enough, consistently enough, that somebody at the table can't answer him. Just not going to be ban worthy.
Maybe, in the future, a case could be made for potentially overcentralizing games, considering it is a value engine that most decks don't have access to. However, that will take some extensive gameplay to determine if that's the case.
I don't think he should be banned, never have I just thought there was some misrepresentation of what mono-black can do to ritual and ramp if it wants to.
[quote from="Taleran »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/commander-rules-discussion-forum/204400-general-discussion-of-the-official-multiplayer?comment=32030"]You are overlooking a couple things.
1) He can technically be cheated into play now with the printing of Command Beacon and some shenanigans.
Hence the asterisk. Sure, you can "cheat" him out like that, but that's a lot of resources devoted to a not very good strategy. You'll be investing almost as much mana(maybe not after a few returns to the CZ, but that's hardly relevant in this discussion), and a ton of moving parts. I'd rather devote that work to building a board that I can sac. for value, instead of trying to cheat on casting my otherwise 8/8 flying trampler.
2) Black can "cheat" things into play by generating mana over actually cheating them into play. Whether it be Culling the WeakLake of the Dead any of the rituals Dark or Cabal or some of the more esoteric cards like Bubbling Muck classic Black doublers, or just Cabal and Urborg.
If someone builds this deck with RazzleDazzle in the Command Zone you can be assured the gameplan will always be to have him in play well before turn 8 or even 7 or 6
I don't think it's right to look at him through the lens of cheating him in since Sidisi, Undead Vizier can already be abused in a similar way. What this card introduces to the game is a repeatable tutor that requires minimal setup. If you're going through the steps of cheating him in or abusing him in a Griselbrand-esque manner then he does not add anything that we can't already do. He's the type of card that accidentally ruins metas with casual, less-tuned decks in the same vein as Sundering Titan, Sylvan Primordial, or Prophet of Kruphix. He's not going to upset the Spike metas, he's going to upset the Timmy ones.
If anyone can bear your opponent to shuffle every single turn, or perhaps every single turn, by all means support this guy. I know many wouldn't stand for it.
If anyone can bear your opponent to shuffle every single turn, or perhaps every single turn, by all means support this guy. I know many wouldn't stand for it.
It's not just simply an 8/8 flying trampler.
We have a guy who runs a Sidisi, Undead Vizier tutor engine that can go one of 2 ways. He either tutors up Dawn of the Dead and tutors every upkeep, or, he grabs Corpse Dance and tutors as much as he wants, when he wants. We even talked about this guy, and he believes, and I agree, that his engine is both more reliable, more abusable, and even cheaper.
If a player tutors just to tutor, it's annoying. However, and this should be true of all tutor-users, you should have at the very least an inkling as to what you want/need.
Not sure how constant shuffling warrants a ban, considering Sensei's Divinig Top is a more egregious offender in terms of slowing the game down.
And yes, when he's on the board, by himself, he's an 8/8 flying trampler. If he's in the CZ, as an opponent, I will do my best to ensure that is always the case.
How has the Protean Hulk unban been treating everyone?
I still have yet to see one in a game.
I run it in Thrasios & Ravos. Its mostly been used to pull out Seedborn Muse, usually next to Deathrite Shaman. Sometimes it'll pull up Karmic Guide to reanimate whatever I have on the field while it gets podded to Ashen Rider itself. So far it's just been good value, but nothing more than other 7 drops.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It's in my Mayael deck, but I've pulled it(Maytutor or otherwise) a grand total of 2 times in 10 games. I use it to search for a creature or two, mostly ones that have ETB, but beyond that, yeah...nothing much. Not sure what the hubbub was about over its unbanning(I'm sure its ban was much more worthy back in the day)
How has the Protean Hulk unban been treating everyone?
I still have yet to see one in a game.
It's been underperforming for me in my Yidris deck, since I'm not really designed to take advantage of it. Solid value, but nothing broken.
Of the times I've personally seen Hulk's trigger put on the stack, there has been one time it hasn't ended the game on the spot. And that was because there was an It That Betrays in play.
How has the Protean Hulk unban been treating everyone?
I still have yet to see one in a game.
It's been underperforming for me in my Yidris deck, since I'm not really designed to take advantage of it. Solid value, but nothing broken.
Of the times I've personally seen Hulk's trigger put on the stack, there has been one time it hasn't ended the game on the spot. And that was because there was an It That Betrays in play.
My only experience with it so far has been towards the end of a game when I drew it and just said screw it, let's end this thing (it was tournament game), and combined Karmillark.
How has the Protean Hulk unban been treating everyone?
I still have yet to see one in a game.
It's been underperforming for me in my Yidris deck, since I'm not really designed to take advantage of it. Solid value, but nothing broken.
Of the times I've personally seen Hulk's trigger put on the stack, there has been one time it hasn't ended the game on the spot. And that was because there was an It That Betrays in play.
It's a little more resilient than Boonweaver and requires fewer pieces. If you ever exile pattern of rebirth, boonweaver giant is just a bad card. It also requires you to have a sacrifice outlet already in play. Protean hulk can win no Turn 0 with no permanents in play. Or any other turn just by Flashing it into play. And there are so many different hulk combo's that you have to exile the hulk itself or cast a half dozen jesters caps to stop it.
I'm not saying that to say it should be rebanned (maybe it should though), I'm just saying that it is very different. It's unban knocked Boonweaver decks off the map completely. This next part might just be the players I have played against, but the protean hulk lines being so varied and often complicated make the process a lot longer than boonweaver combo used to take. And the people I have been playing with lately make you show that you have it and that you can do the combo properly instead of conceding.
How has the Protean Hulk unban been treating everyone?
I still have yet to see one in a game.
It's been underperforming for me in my Yidris deck, since I'm not really designed to take advantage of it. Solid value, but nothing broken.
Of the times I've personally seen Hulk's trigger put on the stack, there has been one time it hasn't ended the game on the spot. And that was because there was an It That Betrays in play.
It's a little more resilient than Boonweaver and requires fewer pieces. If you ever exile pattern of rebirth, boonweaver giant is just a bad card. It also requires you to have a sacrifice outlet already in play. Protean hulk can win no Turn 0 with no permanents in play. Or any other turn just by Flashing it into play. And there are so many different hulk combo's that you have to exile the hulk itself or cast a half dozen jesters caps to stop it.
I'm not saying that to say it should be rebanned (maybe it should though), I'm just saying that it is very different. It's unban knocked Boonweaver decks off the map completely. This next part might just be the players I have played against, but the protean hulk lines being so varied and often complicated make the process a lot longer than boonweaver combo used to take. And the people I have been playing with lately make you show that you have it and that you can do the combo properly instead of conceding.
Agreed on Boonweaver being slightly weaker. It sucks if you can exile just one combo piece before it gets going, while P-Hulk still works as a goodstuff tutor that can grab a few silver bullets. That, to me, isn't worth a banning though, its just a lower opportunity cost. I'd say its closer to T&N, which is harder to cheat but more resilient and requires fewer card slots to make work.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The hulk decks I have seen are basically every redundant and easy to assemble creature combo. Hulk is an insanely powerful enabler for them. Even with it gone, there's too much redundancy to try to get rid of all the combos. But, that may not really be a reason to ban it.
I see Raz as more of a problem at casual tables than in Spiky ones. My take on this card is that at a low enough power level he becomes indistinguishable from Griselbrand because the setup is less likely to be disrupted. I honestly think he's exactly the kind of card that the RC needs to keep a close eye on. Spikes have better options (Sidisi, Undead Vizier, most likely), whereas new players will use this as a general or in the 99 and not realize that it is the reason they are dominating games with a Diabolic Intent every turn.
I'll probably throw this in Sek'kuar for a bit, but I imagine that I will end up taking it out because it will make my deck too linear. Survival of the Fittest already comes close to doing that (and I specifically leave out creature-only combos for that reason), so a way to tutor up that Living Death along with fodder might be a bit much.
However, otherwise it is hard to go super duper "Better than Diabolic Revelation for 3" good unless you were able to cheat on the mana cost and even then you need to reliably get 2 good cards out of it to feel good about it.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
As a general, he can't be cheated* into play, so you're on the hook for that Mana-cost. That means even if you cast him with sac. fodder, you probably won't be reaping the benefits of the tutor until the next turn, it'll be mid-late game by this point, so the other players should already have a threat or an answer of their own. Coupled with the fact that all of the best advantages black has costs life, you won't be able to play so loose with your life total banking on a 8-Mana tutor that also costs life.
In the 99, he'll eat removal immediately, even early if reanimated(which, let's be honest here, that's the only way he makes it into a list of 99 or Kaalia) and again, sac. fodder is needed. Is 10 life worth a tutor target?
If you ban him, you might as well ban Demonic Tutor and its brethren.
1) He can technically be cheated into play now with the printing of Command Beacon and some shenanigans.
2) Black can "cheat" things into play by generating mana over actually cheating them into play. Whether it be Culling the Weak Lake of the Dead any of the rituals Dark or Cabal or some of the more esoteric cards like Bubbling Muck classic Black doublers, or just Cabal and Urborg.
If someone builds this deck with RazzleDazzle in the Command Zone you can be assured the gameplan will always be to have him in play well before turn 8 or even 7 or 6
Hence the asterisk. Sure, you can "cheat" him out like that, but that's a lot of resources devoted to a not very good strategy. You'll be investing almost as much mana(maybe not after a few returns to the CZ, but that's hardly relevant in this discussion), and a ton of moving parts. I'd rather devote that work to building a board that I can sac. for value, instead of trying to cheat on casting my otherwise 8/8 flying trampler.
The same can be said of really any other card with a high cost that happens to be black or is given access to it, doesn't mean it should be banned. There is a laundry list of cards that should be disscussed because they can be cheated into play via B shenanigans, mana production included.
Still, you're going to ritual/ramp into him and do... what? 8 Mana, single card tutors aren't good, and this one has hoops. He'll never get online soon enough, consistently enough, that somebody at the table can't answer him. Just not going to be ban worthy.
Maybe, in the future, a case could be made for potentially overcentralizing games, considering it is a value engine that most decks don't have access to. However, that will take some extensive gameplay to determine if that's the case.
Hence the asterisk. Sure, you can "cheat" him out like that, but that's a lot of resources devoted to a not very good strategy. You'll be investing almost as much mana(maybe not after a few returns to the CZ, but that's hardly relevant in this discussion), and a ton of moving parts. I'd rather devote that work to building a board that I can sac. for value, instead of trying to cheat on casting my otherwise 8/8 flying trampler.
I don't think it's right to look at him through the lens of cheating him in since Sidisi, Undead Vizier can already be abused in a similar way. What this card introduces to the game is a repeatable tutor that requires minimal setup. If you're going through the steps of cheating him in or abusing him in a Griselbrand-esque manner then he does not add anything that we can't already do. He's the type of card that accidentally ruins metas with casual, less-tuned decks in the same vein as Sundering Titan, Sylvan Primordial, or Prophet of Kruphix. He's not going to upset the Spike metas, he's going to upset the Timmy ones.
It's not just simply an 8/8 flying trampler.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
We have a guy who runs a Sidisi, Undead Vizier tutor engine that can go one of 2 ways. He either tutors up Dawn of the Dead and tutors every upkeep, or, he grabs Corpse Dance and tutors as much as he wants, when he wants. We even talked about this guy, and he believes, and I agree, that his engine is both more reliable, more abusable, and even cheaper.
If a player tutors just to tutor, it's annoying. However, and this should be true of all tutor-users, you should have at the very least an inkling as to what you want/need.
Not sure how constant shuffling warrants a ban, considering Sensei's Divinig Top is a more egregious offender in terms of slowing the game down.
And yes, when he's on the board, by himself, he's an 8/8 flying trampler. If he's in the CZ, as an opponent, I will do my best to ensure that is always the case.
I still have yet to see one in a game.
I run it in Thrasios & Ravos. Its mostly been used to pull out Seedborn Muse, usually next to Deathrite Shaman. Sometimes it'll pull up Karmic Guide to reanimate whatever I have on the field while it gets podded to Ashen Rider itself. So far it's just been good value, but nothing more than other 7 drops.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
It's been underperforming for me in my Yidris deck, since I'm not really designed to take advantage of it. Solid value, but nothing broken.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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But is that any different than Boonweaver Giant or Tooth and Nail?
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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It's a little more resilient than Boonweaver and requires fewer pieces. If you ever exile pattern of rebirth, boonweaver giant is just a bad card. It also requires you to have a sacrifice outlet already in play. Protean hulk can win no Turn 0 with no permanents in play. Or any other turn just by Flashing it into play. And there are so many different hulk combo's that you have to exile the hulk itself or cast a half dozen jesters caps to stop it.
I'm not saying that to say it should be rebanned (maybe it should though), I'm just saying that it is very different. It's unban knocked Boonweaver decks off the map completely. This next part might just be the players I have played against, but the protean hulk lines being so varied and often complicated make the process a lot longer than boonweaver combo used to take. And the people I have been playing with lately make you show that you have it and that you can do the combo properly instead of conceding.
Modern
Agreed on Boonweaver being slightly weaker. It sucks if you can exile just one combo piece before it gets going, while P-Hulk still works as a goodstuff tutor that can grab a few silver bullets. That, to me, isn't worth a banning though, its just a lower opportunity cost. I'd say its closer to T&N, which is harder to cheat but more resilient and requires fewer card slots to make work.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Modern