And so ends my hyprocisy because I want Library unbanned.
Out of curiosity, why would you like Library unbanned? I was actually considering making an argument for its unbanning myself as I don't feel certain that the vast majority of players even see the card as being a barrier to entering the format.
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Out of curiosity, why would you like Library unbanned? I was actually considering making an argument for its unbanning myself as I don't feel certain that the vast majority of players even see the card as being a barrier to entering the format.
Because I have never found it to be very strong in my own games. It's decent, but not the OP card some people have made it out to be. It is also a card which absolutely fits the "hey cool I get to play this old card which is banned everywhere else" category. However, it is also stupid expensive and slots into decks as well as Relequary Tower, so there is a definite risk involved with unhanning a $600 card and watching it double or triple in price in the matter of minutes (oh hai there Hulk). I begrudgingly agree with the RC to keep it banned, but in a world where zero ****s are given to the secondary market and we don't need to care about an outdated perception, there is in my opin8on very little risk to unhanning it.
Commander is fairly tilted toward controllish decks and there are a lot of "Wheel" effects so I'm not sure Library coming off the list is fine. I'll not #Warble too much but Academy and Library coming off at the same time would at least cause some insanely chaotic games for a short time period. I don't want Academy unbanned at any time.
I would not mind if Grim Monolith and Mana Crypt went away. You could still get some fairly swingy starts off Sol Ring and Vault, but you'd only have Basalt Monolith to combo with Power Artifact, and that costs one more generic mana. CMDR seems pretty fine these days though, I haven't even seen a Protean Hulk since it has been unbanned, but our meta is pretty oppressively blue-based, and the only Simic decks are Momir and Food Chain Zegana so Hulk is useless there.
(Kind of off topic, but yeah, don't unban Balance ever. I got to play some Duel Commander on Monday (very fun!) and getting nailed for half my lands and all my creatures on turn 3 or so...not fun!)
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So? Mind Sculptor isn't even good in a multiplayer FFA game, and he only costs $60-70 depending on printing. Alliances Force of Will is $75, and other printings just get more expensive from there.
the list of reasons to not run Imperial Seal in any black deck is exclusively limited to "I cannot afford it."
And "Vampiric Tutor is strictly better". The only decks that need to dig so deep for cheap tutors that things like Imperial Seal and Grim Tutor are worth obtaining are balls-to-the-wall competitive combo decks. Most decks (and even most combo decks) don't need both Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal, and Vampiric is both better and cheaper.
Speaking of, why are you complaining about things like Jace and Crypt when Grim Tutor is $230+? (Nearly double the invention printing for Crypt.)
Uh... Imperial Seal might be worth more than a gold-border Mox Pearl, but real Mox Pearls start at $1100+, while the Imperial Seals top out at half that.
Tabernacle is less fun and more expensive than Mox Opal. There are two reasons to ban Tabernacle over Opal, yet the reverse banning is in place.
I assume you got Opal switched with Pearl, since Mox Opal isn't banned? Tabernacle does cost a little bit more than a white-border Mox Pearl, but the difference is small. A black-border Mox Pearl costs 2-3 times as much as Tabernacle.
Plus, Tabernacle gets played seldomly, and Mox Pearl would get played in precisely 100% of white decks (ignoring actual availability issues, but that highlights why the barrier is perceived).
Sol Ring was actually only like $2 way back in the day just a few years before the first commander decks. It actually shot up to like $8 by commander 2011 release though, and dropped over the years with all the reprints. I actually got a mana crypt for cheap back then too. It was really rare, only being a book promo, but it wasn't really desired either. Cards like it and Cradle were pretty affordable before the format really took off.
So these are the same arguments that people have been making for years. I personally would like to have card such as LoA unbanned, mostly for my "1%er" combo deck. I want it specifically for its iconic value, also its a great card. I would like to know what people think about the growing power of super friends type deck, with the little planswalker control available, and growing power of doubling season. This may be a silly question, but do we see doubling season being considered for banning in the future?
I feel like you're right. This maybe slightly off topic but do you think we will get more playable planswalker hate in the near future?
I don't know what else you'd be looking for. There are Sweepers, Targeted, Neutering and of course The 'ole Fashioned way. The problem with planeswalker decks are hardly the 'walkers themselves, it's the way they are protected/exploited by their user. Doubling Season is really the only way 'Walker decks can survive anyways, so I doubt you'd ever see it banned. Most 'walker decks though are built with a bunch of other cards that probably are more banworthy than DS or any walker.
I feel like you're right. This maybe slightly off topic but do you think we will get more playable planswalker hate in the near future?
More playable planeswalker hate? So, thousands of creatures, burn spells, and removal spells aren't enough? I play 5-color super friends, and while it is powerful, it has a lot of weaknesses. What more are you looking for?
More playable planeswalker hate? So, thousands of creatures, burn spells, and removal spells aren't enough? I play 5-color super friends, and while it is powerful, it has a lot of weaknesses. What more are you looking for?
Lots of good points have been made. I'm not disagreeing with anyone. I would like to see a wrath of walker that's not "In Garruk's Wake". Along with doubling season, super friends also utilizes "decree of annihilation".
All and all I think the formats at a good place. I personally would like to see the PBoE thing go away,but still it's my favorite format. Thanks for the time you gave by reading this and thanks for any and all feedback
Well the issue is that planeswalker destruction is so far limited to black, and direct damage red. More removal like Dreadbore or Hero's Downfall would be nice, or even aggressively costed sweepers. I'd love to see an updated Austere Command that included walkers.
That's just a pile off the top of my head. All planeswalkers are noncreatures, permanents, and can take damage. Some cards let you choose a card type to kill. They really aren't that hard to manage.
More playable planeswalker hate? So, thousands of creatures, burn spells, and removal spells aren't enough? I play 5-color super friends, and while it is powerful, it has a lot of weaknesses. What more are you looking for?
Lots of good points have been made. I'm not disagreeing with anyone. I would like to see a wrath of walker that's not "In Garruk's Wake". Along with doubling season, super friends also utilizes "decree of annihilation".
Sure, superfriends can use Decree of Annihilation and Jokulhaups, but I personally don't run those, as I feel they ruin games. I have a feeling that if they start making direct planeswalker hate more ubiquitous, I might have to start running those just to stay competitive. That's the danger of an arms race.
As for planeswalker wraths, we have the ones mentioned by ProfessorWhen, as well as things like Cyclonic Rift, Merciless Eviction, Oblivion Stone, All is Dust, Child of Alara, Æther Snap, etc.
The funny part to me is that when I play superfriends, I'm far more worried about hordes of creatures than I am sweeper spells or even targetted removal. And it's not because those don't exist for walkers, they do. It's because every single creature or creature token represents a threat to my walkers. That's not the case for any other permanent type. Are your enchantments or artifacts threatened by creatures? A handful of specialized ones, sure, but not every single creature, vanilla ones included. You can't redirect burn to artifacts and enchantments, either.
Did anyone check out Sheldon's article on SCG? In the article, Sheldon admits that the RC has a "watch list" talks about some cards that have caught his eye as things to ban because he doesn't like them to keep an eye on. Specifically, he calls out Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and Tooth and Nail. If anyone wants a sneak preview of what is getting banned a small look into how Sheldon looks at cards that the RC will take away to ruin your fun might get further discussion, this is worth a read.
Did anyone check out Sheldon's article on SCG? In the article, Sheldon admits that the RC has a "watch list" talks about some cards that have caught his eye as things to ban because he doesn't like them to keep an eye on. Specifically, he calls out Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and Tooth and Nail. If anyone wants a sneak preview of what is getting banned a small look into how Sheldon looks at cards that the RC will take away to ruin your fun might get further discussion, this is worth a read.
Well, of course they have a "watch list". I don't know why anyone would think they don't. They don't publish one because it doesn't make sense to, but they obviously have cards they wish to discuss. That's how they get to the point of banning Prophet and Prime Time and unbanning Hulk and Metalworker. I would be surprised if Paradox Engine wasn't at least brought up in their discussions for example.
Beyond that, I don't see any issue with the nature of the article. It was meant to be a fun update on their League and Sheldon just points out some potential issues with cards. In fact, Tooth and Nail has a fairly high level of discontent of most unbanned cards as evidenced by that card's Thread on these forums. Some of that was due to the fact that Hulk was banned and many felt T&N was similar enough. Obviously, they went the other way with it, but it isn't news to say T&N is a card the RC is discussing (and they probably should be discussing it). Don't get me wrong; I feel banning it would be a mistake (and I refuse to play the card) but knowing that they want to talk about it doesn't mean anything.
Selvala is another story. I don't know how many people have complained about her making too much mana, but maybe it is worthy of a discussion. She is 1 more mana than Rofellos, but operates on a different axis (creatures vs forests) so I think she falls into the camp of Cradle. However, again, them discussing it isn't a bad thing and there is nothing in that article to suggest that we should expect anything soon on either card getting the axe.
They do way too much on the basis of more than just their games as shown by the Hulk unban. Sheldon stated previously that they tried it in their Draft and everyone said to leave it banned. However, when community input was taken into account, they felt the appropriate response was one that contradicted their own experiences. If they do decide to ban either card, it will be because of community engagement and review of player experiences outside their own as well as their own experiences. To think they will make any decisions based solely on these two games is frankly ignorant of their processes and the time and effort they put into their ban and unban decisions.
Actually, putting Hulk into our previous League was the 2nd time we tried it out. A few years before, we did so with an extended group of about a dozen regular players at the shop--asking them on only play it with each other and not further modify their decks to take advantage of it.
I have it in this League deck. If it dies to a board sweeper and I have nothing to Clone, then there's not really much for me to do besides snag value--like maybe Puppeteer Clique if someone else has a juicy bit in the graveyard, Xenagos if it's not already out, or just Kokusho to start rebuilding. I understand that mine is probably the weakest use of PH in nearly any deck ever, so it doesn't stand as a good representative for the strength of the card.
Since Hulk has been unbanned, I had one deck it has fit in I was building before it was unbanned. I no longer play that deck. There is one other deck in my meta that plays it and thats it. I cant say that I have seen it even more than like 4 times since its been unbanned.
The fact that its a green creature that doesn't make a ton of sense outside of a dedicated sac based deck almost makes it like a green / black card because its really hard to get the value out of it most colors otherwise.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Used Hulk for the first time in a 2HG tournament. Cast it, sacced it to Greater Good, then proceeded to Karmic Lark to victory. Not exactly compelling evidence one way or the other because Karador naturally abuses those cards and combo already, and it was in a tournament setting so winning was obviously the correct play at the expense of fun gameplay.
At most, it makes me question whether I want to include the card in the deck at all. I don't really want to include cards that require me to exclude other cards or intentionally display my deck, and while there is some sense of satisfaction to getting all your combo pieces to win, there isn't much joy to playing a one card combo.
Used Hulk for the first time in a 2HG tournament. Cast it, sacced it to Greater Good, then proceeded to Karmic Lark to victory. Not exactly compelling evidence one way or the other because Karador naturally abuses those cards and combo already, and it was in a tournament setting so winning was obviously the correct play at the expense of fun gameplay.
At most, it makes me question whether I want to include the card in the deck at all. I don't really want to include cards that require me to exclude other cards or intentionally display my deck, and while there is some sense of satisfaction to getting all your combo pieces to win, there isn't much joy to playing a one card combo.
See, in this scenario there is exactly 0 difference between Hulk and Boonweaver Giant except that Pattern of Rebirth lets you get the giant, so you have slightly increased odds of topdecking that combo.
I have yet to even see someone bother with Hulk in spite of all the G/x decks in my meta. Although I suppose since most of them are UG or RUG Hulk has less use.
I have yet to even see someone bother with Hulk in spite of all the G/x decks in my meta. Although I suppose since most of them are UG or RUG Hulk has less use.
GU: Hulk into Pili-Pala, Grand Architect, Walking Ballista, and Rootwater Diver. Ballista dies. Untap, use Pili-Pala and Architect for infinite mana, sacrifice Diver to get Ballista in hand, cast Ballista for X=death. Optional: use Flash at EOT to get Hulk in play and dead, and minimize amount of time your opponents have to respond to the board state.
I threw Protean Hulk straight into my Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord sacrifice-themed deck and it has been very, very good without being totally broken. I'm not the kind of guy that runs infinite combos anyway, but I went through my deck and made sure just in case. The "best" things I have done with it are things like Eternal Witness+Yavimaya Elder, Sakura-Tribe Elder + Smothering Abomination, or Yavimaya Dryad + Wood Elves. I think the "best" thing I could do with it is grab Gleancrawler to get back Hulk and do it again every turn, or to "go off" with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (hopefully in conjunction with Greater Good to draw some cards my library). I like Hulk in my deck because it gives so many different options depending on what I have and what I need. So much value!!!!
Obviously, not having access to Reveillark or Karmic Guide in Jarad helps contain some of the shenanigans that would otherwise ensue, but in all honesty Abzan has sooooo many ways to go infinite that adding another one doesn't really seem like that big of a deal.
I have yet to even see someone bother with Hulk in spite of all the G/x decks in my meta. Although I suppose since most of them are UG or RUG Hulk has less use.
GU: Hulk into Pili-Pala, Grand Architect, Walking Ballista, and Rootwater Diver. Ballista dies. Untap, use Pili-Pala and Architect for infinite mana, sacrifice Diver to get Ballista in hand, cast Ballista for X=death. Optional: use Flash at EOT to get Hulk in play and dead, and minimize amount of time your opponents have to respond to the board state.
Yeah, but that's a lot of otherwise useless cards to make the combo. I understand they exist, but compare it to Reveillark/Karmic Guide loops. All the combo pieces are all independently useful as well. I'm unlikely to have Rootwater Diver or Pili-Pala in my deck unless I intended to combo with them, and if I intended to combo I'd use something better like Mystical Tutor -> Tooth and Nail -> Palinchron/Eternal Witness -> T&N -> Deadeye Navigator and proceed to cast every card in my deck. All of the pieces are great when not used in the combo.
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Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Because I have never found it to be very strong in my own games. It's decent, but not the OP card some people have made it out to be. It is also a card which absolutely fits the "hey cool I get to play this old card which is banned everywhere else" category. However, it is also stupid expensive and slots into decks as well as Relequary Tower, so there is a definite risk involved with unhanning a $600 card and watching it double or triple in price in the matter of minutes (oh hai there Hulk). I begrudgingly agree with the RC to keep it banned, but in a world where zero ****s are given to the secondary market and we don't need to care about an outdated perception, there is in my opin8on very little risk to unhanning it.
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I would not mind if Grim Monolith and Mana Crypt went away. You could still get some fairly swingy starts off Sol Ring and Vault, but you'd only have Basalt Monolith to combo with Power Artifact, and that costs one more generic mana. CMDR seems pretty fine these days though, I haven't even seen a Protean Hulk since it has been unbanned, but our meta is pretty oppressively blue-based, and the only Simic decks are Momir and Food Chain Zegana so Hulk is useless there.
(Kind of off topic, but yeah, don't unban Balance ever. I got to play some Duel Commander on Monday (very fun!) and getting nailed for half my lands and all my creatures on turn 3 or so...not fun!)
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Only the invention version has an average price that hits 3 digits, and the EMA printing is around $60.
Judge foil is under $60.
And "Vampiric Tutor is strictly better". The only decks that need to dig so deep for cheap tutors that things like Imperial Seal and Grim Tutor are worth obtaining are balls-to-the-wall competitive combo decks. Most decks (and even most combo decks) don't need both Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal, and Vampiric is both better and cheaper.
Speaking of, why are you complaining about things like Jace and Crypt when Grim Tutor is $230+? (Nearly double the invention printing for Crypt.)
Uh... Imperial Seal might be worth more than a gold-border Mox Pearl, but real Mox Pearls start at $1100+, while the Imperial Seals top out at half that.
I assume you got Opal switched with Pearl, since Mox Opal isn't banned? Tabernacle does cost a little bit more than a white-border Mox Pearl, but the difference is small. A black-border Mox Pearl costs 2-3 times as much as Tabernacle.
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I don't know what else you'd be looking for. There are Sweepers, Targeted, Neutering and of course The 'ole Fashioned way. The problem with planeswalker decks are hardly the 'walkers themselves, it's the way they are protected/exploited by their user. Doubling Season is really the only way 'Walker decks can survive anyways, so I doubt you'd ever see it banned. Most 'walker decks though are built with a bunch of other cards that probably are more banworthy than DS or any walker.
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Lots of good points have been made. I'm not disagreeing with anyone. I would like to see a wrath of walker that's not "In Garruk's Wake". Along with doubling season, super friends also utilizes "decree of annihilation".
All and all I think the formats at a good place. I personally would like to see the PBoE thing go away,but still it's my favorite format. Thanks for the time you gave by reading this and thanks for any and all feedback
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That's just a pile off the top of my head. All planeswalkers are noncreatures, permanents, and can take damage. Some cards let you choose a card type to kill. They really aren't that hard to manage.
As for planeswalker wraths, we have the ones mentioned by ProfessorWhen, as well as things like Cyclonic Rift, Merciless Eviction, Oblivion Stone, All is Dust, Child of Alara, Æther Snap, etc.
The funny part to me is that when I play superfriends, I'm far more worried about hordes of creatures than I am sweeper spells or even targetted removal. And it's not because those don't exist for walkers, they do. It's because every single creature or creature token represents a threat to my walkers. That's not the case for any other permanent type. Are your enchantments or artifacts threatened by creatures? A handful of specialized ones, sure, but not every single creature, vanilla ones included. You can't redirect burn to artifacts and enchantments, either.
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admits that the RC has a "watch list"talks about some cards that have caught his eye as thingsto ban because he doesn't like themto keep an eye on. Specifically, he calls out Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and Tooth and Nail. If anyone wantsa sneak preview of what is getting banneda small look into how Sheldon looks at cards thatthe RC will take away to ruin your funmight get further discussion, this is worth a read.Beyond that, I don't see any issue with the nature of the article. It was meant to be a fun update on their League and Sheldon just points out some potential issues with cards. In fact, Tooth and Nail has a fairly high level of discontent of most unbanned cards as evidenced by that card's Thread on these forums. Some of that was due to the fact that Hulk was banned and many felt T&N was similar enough. Obviously, they went the other way with it, but it isn't news to say T&N is a card the RC is discussing (and they probably should be discussing it). Don't get me wrong; I feel banning it would be a mistake (and I refuse to play the card) but knowing that they want to talk about it doesn't mean anything.
Selvala is another story. I don't know how many people have complained about her making too much mana, but maybe it is worthy of a discussion. She is 1 more mana than Rofellos, but operates on a different axis (creatures vs forests) so I think she falls into the camp of Cradle. However, again, them discussing it isn't a bad thing and there is nothing in that article to suggest that we should expect anything soon on either card getting the axe.
They do way too much on the basis of more than just their games as shown by the Hulk unban. Sheldon stated previously that they tried it in their Draft and everyone said to leave it banned. However, when community input was taken into account, they felt the appropriate response was one that contradicted their own experiences. If they do decide to ban either card, it will be because of community engagement and review of player experiences outside their own as well as their own experiences. To think they will make any decisions based solely on these two games is frankly ignorant of their processes and the time and effort they put into their ban and unban decisions.
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I have it in this League deck. If it dies to a board sweeper and I have nothing to Clone, then there's not really much for me to do besides snag value--like maybe Puppeteer Clique if someone else has a juicy bit in the graveyard, Xenagos if it's not already out, or just Kokusho to start rebuilding. I understand that mine is probably the weakest use of PH in nearly any deck ever, so it doesn't stand as a good representative for the strength of the card.
The fact that its a green creature that doesn't make a ton of sense outside of a dedicated sac based deck almost makes it like a green / black card because its really hard to get the value out of it most colors otherwise.
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At most, it makes me question whether I want to include the card in the deck at all. I don't really want to include cards that require me to exclude other cards or intentionally display my deck, and while there is some sense of satisfaction to getting all your combo pieces to win, there isn't much joy to playing a one card combo.
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See, in this scenario there is exactly 0 difference between Hulk and Boonweaver Giant except that Pattern of Rebirth lets you get the giant, so you have slightly increased odds of topdecking that combo.
I have yet to even see someone bother with Hulk in spite of all the G/x decks in my meta. Although I suppose since most of them are UG or RUG Hulk has less use.
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some cardsmy library). I like Hulk in my deck because it gives so many different options depending on what I have and what I need. So much value!!!!Obviously, not having access to Reveillark or Karmic Guide in Jarad helps contain some of the shenanigans that would otherwise ensue, but in all honesty Abzan has sooooo many ways to go infinite that adding another one doesn't really seem like that big of a deal.
Yeah, but that's a lot of otherwise useless cards to make the combo. I understand they exist, but compare it to Reveillark/Karmic Guide loops. All the combo pieces are all independently useful as well. I'm unlikely to have Rootwater Diver or Pili-Pala in my deck unless I intended to combo with them, and if I intended to combo I'd use something better like Mystical Tutor -> Tooth and Nail -> Palinchron/Eternal Witness -> T&N -> Deadeye Navigator and proceed to cast every card in my deck. All of the pieces are great when not used in the combo.