I wonder if any other cards have a chance of being unbanned?
#FreeLibrary
I think Gifts still has potential, especially after being blindsided with Hulk.
Can't really have both Library and Academy banned at the same time. #TheWarbleAxiom
All kidding aside though, very good announcement day. Our group had a bunch of Hulks stashed for rainy days and we'll be playing them.
Conversely, we are pretty cutthroat but even we decided to give Leo a timeout because it turned into people racing to Wrath effects or having to build control shells to counter him and so on. It was fun now and then but mostly just griefer grindy, which is limited fun at best.
Thank you!
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Leovold was expected but Hulk wasnt. Not sure how I feel about it just yet but I suppose we will just have to wait and see. Now the real challenge is to find my copy...
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I wonder if any other cards have a chance of being unbanned?
#FreeLibrary
I think Gifts still has potential, especially after being blindsided with Hulk.
Well, Library hasn't been all that exciting in the year I've had it in a deck. It's only been really sweet once despite it being played every commander night. You can't aggressively mulligan to it either because then you won't have 7 cards and I really doubt it's worth tutoring. It's not as strong of an effect as Sylvan Library or even Phyrexian Arena.
for
As for Gifts, its combo use is the only issue. Double Entomb isn't even as cheap as Regrowth + Entomb. It nets fewer creatures for more mana than Buried Alive, and its combos are weaker than Hulk that just got unbanned. No one even came up with a combo faster than Tooth and Nail that didn't use Dream Halls, which is a super dedicated combo card. It isn't even that different than Intuition. I figured it would come off before Hulk because it's quite possibly the most innocent banned card.
Also I'm glad Leo got the axe. The most notable issue I had with him was when a less experienced players pick him up and the table is put in the position of dog-piling the budget wheels deck or letting him do nothing until he wipes all hands forever.
Also I'm glad Leo got the axe. The most notable issue I had with him was when a less experienced players pick him up and the table is put in the position of dog-piling the budget wheels deck or letting him do nothing until he wipes all hands forever.
I wonder if they playtest banned cards one at a time to see what impact they have in the environment, and if they focus more on testing cards like Hulk that are borderline and that have lots of interest from the community in being unbanned. If so, Servant would be high on that list, maybe Recurring Nightmare as well since other cards let you abuse enters/leaves the battlefield effects repeatedly for mana (though it is the cheapest to get started with).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I wonder if they playtest banned cards one at a time to see what impact they have in the environment, and if they focus more on testing cards like Hulk that are borderline and that have lots of interest from the community in being unbanned. If so, Servant would be high on that list, maybe Recurring Nightmare as well since other cards let you abuse enters/leaves the battlefield effects repeatedly for mana (though it is the cheapest to get started with).
The majority of Leovold decks I see and hear about are pretty oppressive, and it seems rather easy to turn Leovold games into those you'd like to forget. I've built a version that doesn't have any wheels--the worst it has is Horn of Green and Temple Bell. It's otherwise just a solid value deck, but I get that my build is the exception and wouldn't use it as support for thinking the card is fine. I've already promised that it's a card we'll talk about when next we meet.
I really wanted him to be okay. He's not, he's miserable, even in a deck with no wheels.
First up, I applaud the EDH committee for doing what they do, and specifically for executing this particular decision, both ban and unban, in such a timely and understandable fashion. Due to the wording of Sheldon's first post, I don't think anyone was expecting it to happen this soon. Based on the interactions above, I can draw the following conclusions:
Sheldon is not necessarily the be-all and end-all of the committee, despite being its most prominent leader. Although he seemed perfectly fine with using Leovold, Emissary of Trest, something happened in the three or four days in between to make him seriously reconsider - whether it was playing against it as normal (casual) EDH, playing it with wheels.dec, or simply being outvoted or out-discussed by other committee members (or Rotisserie drafting - EDH cube lol?). This indicates that a change in opinion is possible. And leads to my next point:
The committee actually listens to rational discussion. This gives me great hope for the future - it's a far cry from the previous image of a committee who only cared about its own internal opinions. I hope the community learns from this and grows to be less tolerant of childish internet tantrums in favor of constructive criticism. The committee reflects rational discourse, such that if a card is seen as overwhelmingly positive or negative, the committee's experiences and opinions will reflect the community's.
The only criticism I can level is the overly-quick turnaround, something that a lot of people might see as a benefit. It indicates a lack of workflow or thought process, where the committee members basically sat down for a few hours and said "this is bad. Ban this." I expected more follow-up, more rigorous testing, or at least more of a road map for where certain cards stand (something that Duel Commander is known for doing, perhaps to excess )
This in no way is a negative shine on the EDH committee. I think they're a brilliant group with definitive visions of the game, who occasionally get the wrong message across and get lynched in typical internet fashion. For all that, they've danced between the raindrops and actually managed to make players happy - something that Wizards' own team tends to have trouble doing these days
When the RC meets they will bring up cards to discuss and then vote on them. My guess is that there was enough internal support that it didn't need to be on a three month watch list. Sheldon has mentioned a weighted +/- scale that they use but hasn't gone into specifics. I imagine it's something like a 1-5 strongly/somewhat disagree, neutral, somewhat/strongly agree rating scale, and enough points between everyone warrants action.
I don't see the difference in saying that Creature disruption is strong enough to let Creature A off the hook but it is not also strong enough to deal with Creature B (especially when Creature B is susceptible to greater forms of removal by both CMC and Power/Toughness).
Sure he is a Commander and always sitting there but most of the means to remove him are less mana than he is, less color intensive and once you kill a Leovold he becomes a lot less appealing at 5 Mana and then 7 Mana.
This is all only talking about one way to build him, he fills a unique spot in Sultai commanders that the combination will miss.
But it is clear a tide has formed in the other direction, oh well.
I don't see the difference in saying that Creature disruption is strong enough to let Creature A off the hook but it is not also strong enough to deal with Creature B (especially when Creature B is susceptible to greater forms of removal by both CMC and Power/Toughness).
Sure he is a Commander and always sitting there but most of the means to remove him are less mana than he is, less color intensive and once you kill a Leovold he becomes a lot less appealing at 5 Mana and then 7 Mana.
This is all only talking about one way to build him, he fills a unique spot in Sultai commanders that the combination will miss.
But it is clear a tide has formed in the other direction, oh well.
I think you are demonstrating a severe lack of understanding of the sheer power of card advantage and disruption all on one package that's always in your opening hand. It's the difference between having the Ad Nauseam vs the Tendrils of Agony. Hulk is what technically wins the game in its combos, but Leo is what realistically wins the game before you actually pull out the finishing blow.
What does the RC have to say (if anything) regarding the recent WotC announcement of the new MTGO Commander Banned List? Did WotC tell you guys or consult with you regarding this decision?
Well, that post at least gives us a reasonable reason for the single online list, and it gives us some hope that online commander will eventually split into two formats (hopefully with the RC ban list). It's good to know that WotC is listening
Well, let's address the elephant in the room here, if you don't mind Sheldon.
Now, there will be hard, potentially obtainable, information regarding EDH play. Do you plan to utilize that information if it becomes available? I say potentially as I'm not entirely certain that WOTC would provide you with that info(business doing their thing, I guess. Not famailar with your guys working relationships)but even if not, it would be hard to argue any of their future banning and unbannings as unwarranted because they do have access to that data.
I guess what I'm saying, is, after the release of Hour of Devastation, and Wizards comes out with the updated list with (expected)sweeping changes including the banning of Tooth and Nail and unbanning Braids, Cabal Minion. Would that influence you own feelings on your banlist?
Edit: I am referring to Traditional EDH, when they port it into MTGO. Unless I missed it in the article, I though HOd was when they would port the multi-player BL over, but it didn't specifically say yours exactly.
Edit x2: Please forgive me if this post sounded oddly malicious, just saw the New GoG movie and had myself an Ego moment... Just an honest to goodness question lol
Well, let's address the elephant in the room here, if you don't mind Sheldon.
Now, there will be hard, potentially obtainable, information regarding EDH play. Do you plan to utilize that information if it becomes available? I say potentially as I'm not entirely certain that WOTC would provide you with that info(business doing their thing, I guess. Not famailar with your guys working relationships)but even if not, it would be hard to argue any of their future banning and unbannings as unwarranted because they do have access to that data.
I guess what I'm saying, is, after the release of Hour of Devastation, and Wizards comes out with the updated list with (expected)sweeping changes including the banning of Tooth and Nail and unbanning Braids, Cabal Minion. Would that influence you own feelings on your banlist?
Edit: I am referring to Traditional EDH, when they port it into MTGO. Unless I missed it in the article, I though HOd was when they would port the multi-player BL over, but it didn't specifically say yours exactly.
Edit x2: Please forgive me if this post sounded oddly malicious, just saw the New GoG movie and had myself an Ego moment... Just an honest to goodness question lol
It looks like they're going to use the RC's ban list for multiplayer, as they did specifically mention them. They left open the ability to tweak it, but that might be tied to the part where they mention that not all cards available in paper will be available online, much like how most of the voting cards and many other conspiracy cards never did. There could come a time when a card that gets released online is banned by the RC for interactions with cards that don't exist online (highly unlikely for a number of reasons, not least of which would be that it would have to be absolutely game breaking in combination with those cards because they don't ban just for being a combo).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That aside, I enjoyed hearing more of your rationale behind the banning and unbanning. Sometimes I wish more of the folks at my LGS followed the spirit of the format as you define it, but I enjoy the combos and more competitive games as well. (Some of my decks are designed for that style.)
Now, there will be hard, potentially obtainable, information regarding EDH play.
That data exists right now. Nothing changes.
On June 5, multiplayer commander goes back to being the way it always has been. The difference is that there'll be a more supported 1v1 format.
I caught the "endeavor to" portion of that statement, so to me, that leaves open the possibility of their own personal changes if they deem necessary. Now obviously that doesn't mean that they will, but they clearly left the door ajar.
Sheldon and Papa_Funk, in light of the recent outcry against Wizards for attempting to mess with multiplayer EDH, and the general sentiment that there should be more unity between the two entities, has there ever been a discussion to have your ban list announcement posted on the wizards announcement as well as on your forum? Something along the lines of:
COMMANDER
(Changes)
For details of this change from the Commander Rules Committee visit their office forums here.
I would imagine that it would not only solve a number of arguments about a freshly banned card that hasn't been updated on the WotC site, as well as giving you guys more acknowledgement.
Sheldon and Papa_Funk, in light of the recent outcry against Wizards for attempting to mess with multiplayer EDH, and the general sentiment that there should be more unity between the two entities, has there ever been a discussion to have your ban list announcement posted on the wizards announcement as well as on your forum? Something along the lines of:
COMMANDER
(Changes)
For details of this change from the Commander Rules Committee visit their office forums here.
I would imagine that it would not only solve a number of arguments about a freshly banned card that hasn't been updated on the WotC site, as well as giving you guys more acknowledgement.
Agreed this would go a long way toward visibility.
Can't really have both Library and Academy banned at the same time. #TheWarbleAxiom
All kidding aside though, very good announcement day. Our group had a bunch of Hulks stashed for rainy days and we'll be playing them.
Conversely, we are pretty cutthroat but even we decided to give Leo a timeout because it turned into people racing to Wrath effects or having to build control shells to counter him and so on. It was fun now and then but mostly just griefer grindy, which is limited fun at best.
Thank you!
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
for
As for Gifts, its combo use is the only issue. Double Entomb isn't even as cheap as Regrowth + Entomb. It nets fewer creatures for more mana than Buried Alive, and its combos are weaker than Hulk that just got unbanned. No one even came up with a combo faster than Tooth and Nail that didn't use Dream Halls, which is a super dedicated combo card. It isn't even that different than Intuition. I figured it would come off before Hulk because it's quite possibly the most innocent banned card.
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[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Also I'm glad Leo got the axe. The most notable issue I had with him was when a less experienced players pick him up and the table is put in the position of dog-piling the budget wheels deck or letting him do nothing until he wipes all hands forever.
I wonder if they playtest banned cards one at a time to see what impact they have in the environment, and if they focus more on testing cards like Hulk that are borderline and that have lots of interest from the community in being unbanned. If so, Servant would be high on that list, maybe Recurring Nightmare as well since other cards let you abuse enters/leaves the battlefield effects repeatedly for mana (though it is the cheapest to get started with).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Sheldon Menery, six days ago:
Sheldon Menery, two days ago:
First up, I applaud the EDH committee for doing what they do, and specifically for executing this particular decision, both ban and unban, in such a timely and understandable fashion. Due to the wording of Sheldon's first post, I don't think anyone was expecting it to happen this soon. Based on the interactions above, I can draw the following conclusions:
Sheldon is not necessarily the be-all and end-all of the committee, despite being its most prominent leader. Although he seemed perfectly fine with using Leovold, Emissary of Trest, something happened in the three or four days in between to make him seriously reconsider - whether it was playing against it as normal (casual) EDH, playing it with wheels.dec, or simply being outvoted or out-discussed by other committee members (or Rotisserie drafting - EDH cube lol?). This indicates that a change in opinion is possible. And leads to my next point:
The committee actually listens to rational discussion. This gives me great hope for the future - it's a far cry from the previous image of a committee who only cared about its own internal opinions. I hope the community learns from this and grows to be less tolerant of childish internet tantrums in favor of constructive criticism. The committee reflects rational discourse, such that if a card is seen as overwhelmingly positive or negative, the committee's experiences and opinions will reflect the community's.
The only criticism I can level is the overly-quick turnaround, something that a lot of people might see as a benefit. It indicates a lack of workflow or thought process, where the committee members basically sat down for a few hours and said "this is bad. Ban this." I expected more follow-up, more rigorous testing, or at least more of a road map for where certain cards stand (something that Duel Commander is known for doing, perhaps to excess )
This in no way is a negative shine on the EDH committee. I think they're a brilliant group with definitive visions of the game, who occasionally get the wrong message across and get lynched in typical internet fashion. For all that, they've danced between the raindrops and actually managed to make players happy - something that Wizards' own team tends to have trouble doing these days
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Sure he is a Commander and always sitting there but most of the means to remove him are less mana than he is, less color intensive and once you kill a Leovold he becomes a lot less appealing at 5 Mana and then 7 Mana.
This is all only talking about one way to build him, he fills a unique spot in Sultai commanders that the combination will miss.
But it is clear a tide has formed in the other direction, oh well.
I think you are demonstrating a severe lack of understanding of the sheer power of card advantage and disruption all on one package that's always in your opening hand. It's the difference between having the Ad Nauseam vs the Tendrils of Agony. Hulk is what technically wins the game in its combos, but Leo is what realistically wins the game before you actually pull out the finishing blow.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
And then things changed.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
So can we safely presume that your opinions offered to them will remain private?
Edit: Nevermind, answered my own question.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Now, there will be hard, potentially obtainable, information regarding EDH play. Do you plan to utilize that information if it becomes available? I say potentially as I'm not entirely certain that WOTC would provide you with that info(business doing their thing, I guess. Not famailar with your guys working relationships)but even if not, it would be hard to argue any of their future banning and unbannings as unwarranted because they do have access to that data.
I guess what I'm saying, is, after the release of Hour of Devastation, and Wizards comes out with the updated list with (expected)sweeping changes including the banning of Tooth and Nail and unbanning Braids, Cabal Minion. Would that influence you own feelings on your banlist?
Edit: I am referring to Traditional EDH, when they port it into MTGO. Unless I missed it in the article, I though HOd was when they would port the multi-player BL over, but it didn't specifically say yours exactly.
Edit x2: Please forgive me if this post sounded oddly malicious, just saw the New GoG movie and had myself an Ego moment... Just an honest to goodness question lol
It looks like they're going to use the RC's ban list for multiplayer, as they did specifically mention them. They left open the ability to tweak it, but that might be tied to the part where they mention that not all cards available in paper will be available online, much like how most of the voting cards and many other conspiracy cards never did. There could come a time when a card that gets released online is banned by the RC for interactions with cards that don't exist online (highly unlikely for a number of reasons, not least of which would be that it would have to be absolutely game breaking in combination with those cards because they don't ban just for being a combo).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That data exists right now. Nothing changes.
On June 5, multiplayer commander goes back to being the way it always has been. The difference is that there'll be a more supported 1v1 format.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest is a black creature and doesn't die to Doom Blade. A monowhite Leovold, on the other hand, would.
That aside, I enjoyed hearing more of your rationale behind the banning and unbanning. Sometimes I wish more of the folks at my LGS followed the spirit of the format as you define it, but I enjoy the combos and more competitive games as well. (Some of my decks are designed for that style.)
I caught the "endeavor to" portion of that statement, so to me, that leaves open the possibility of their own personal changes if they deem necessary. Now obviously that doesn't mean that they will, but they clearly left the door ajar.
COMMANDER
(Changes)
For details of this change from the Commander Rules Committee visit their office forums here.
I would imagine that it would not only solve a number of arguments about a freshly banned card that hasn't been updated on the WotC site, as well as giving you guys more acknowledgement.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Agreed this would go a long way toward visibility.