I think it is reasonable to look at it first as a mana producer since massive amounts of mana can lead to degenerate things, so anything that can represent a busted mana engine immediately gives pause.
As for other uses, it does do a lot of work making a good Thousand-Year Elixir impression in allowing creatures to reuse their activated abilities (minus the pseudo-haste of course), and activated abilities that don't cost mana will be especially good. I agree that this will be very, very good in a lot of decks once it gets going, but only time will tell just how good. (And just to clarify, Paradox Engine has the potential to be much, much better than Thousand-Year Elixir, but my point is that there are already commonly played cards that allow for commanders to use their activated abilities more than once a turn).
For me, I'm putting this into Bosh, Iron Golem, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, Captain Sisay, and potentially into Karn, Silver Golem if I ever get around to finishing it (and assuming I can get them for $8-$10 that they are currently going for). For someone that has 23 decks, that doesn't seem like something that is going to be as ubiquitous as some people claim.
Maybe I'm not seeing PE for its full potential, but it seems to me like it should be treated like a Mana Reflection that can do a Mind Over Matter impression sometimes.
Except it's infinitely easier to cast, and has other broken interactions beside just being a mana-producer.
I will say I am not suggesting we just ban this off some knee-jerk reaction, I'm just simply pointing out that the potential for this card to break games is eerily similar to the way Primetime did and PoK did. This card will find its way into decks that don't have anyway to really abuse it other than as a mana-producer simply because it's that good. I mean, Primetime was still good even when you weren't going for Urborg/Coffers, same applies here. At the very worst, you have a repeatable To Arms sans cantrip pasted onto every spell.
Without mana you are getting maybe 1-2 untaps on your turn; that's not even as powerful as Seedborn Muse. What breaks this is generating mana with each spell you cast with some card draw sprinkled in. What you are describing are the fair uses that really won't make it unpleasant to play. Dralnu is the only thing I'd be afraid of since he will have double cantrips. But that still only works with mana rocks, too.
It may as well be a free To Arms! on each spell you cast (including the cantrip since you're not wasting a card on it). Has To Arms! broken the game when thrown on an Isochron Scepter? For that matter, what about Dramatic Reversal? If you're not chaining spells via mana rocks, this card is mediocre.
Phew! Every time the update comes around, I always seem to expect fast mana rocks to go away. Thankfully, it hasn't happened yet, and I hope for it to never happen.
And still Protean Hulk resumes it's undeserved stay on the banlist.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Phew! Every time the update comes around, I always seem to expect fast mana rocks to go away. Thankfully, it hasn't happened yet, and I hope for it to never happen.
If you mean mana rocks like Mind Stone and Rakdos Signet, I don't think you ever have to worry.
Phew! Every time the update comes around, I always seem to expect fast mana rocks to go away. Thankfully, it hasn't happened yet, and I hope for it to never happen.
If you mean mana rocks like Mind Stone and Rakdos Signet, I don't think you ever have to worry.
It is exasperating that people conflate the Signets and other mana rocks with fast mana. It feels like an intentional political-style obfuscation in the vein of the recent differentiation between Obamacare and the ACA that left so many people disenfranchised. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault are fast mana. Rakdos Signet is not. Worn Powerstone is not. Mind Stone is not. Coldsteel Heart is not.
Phew! Every time the update comes around, I always seem to expect fast mana rocks to go away. Thankfully, it hasn't happened yet, and I hope for it to never happen.
If you mean mana rocks like Mind Stone and Rakdos Signet, I don't think you ever have to worry.
I think you know what I really meant, but thank you for being a funny man!
And OMG! Sheldon replied to a comment of mine! Exciting! Lol.
Hey Sheldon (or papa funk since I see you're around right now), could you explain what you meant in the update: "Wizards has adopted a new ban schedule that features an additional window five weeks out. To maintain the parallel, we will also make short announcements then, but we do not expect to make changes during those windows except in the unlikely event of an emergency."
Asking for a friend, who doesn't follow Wizards announcements very closely. His name's, uh, gryocen.
Phew! Every time the update comes around, I always seem to expect fast mana rocks to go away. Thankfully, it hasn't happened yet, and I hope for it to never happen.
If you mean mana rocks like Mind Stone and Rakdos Signet, I don't think you ever have to worry.
And still Protean Hulk resumes it's undeserved stay on the banlist.
And Tooth and Nail continues to exist... I'm with you Lou - both or none should exist in the format.
I'm all for a Tooth and Nail ban, but I disagree that it has to be neither or both banned. Yes, they do very similar things, but I think that there are big enough differences between the two that it shouldn't be an all-or-nothing proposition.
Hey Sheldon (or papa funk since I see you're around right now), could you explain what you meant in the update: "Wizards has adopted a new ban schedule that features an additional window five weeks out. To maintain the parallel, we will also make short announcements then, but we do not expect to make changes during those windows except in the unlikely event of an emergency."
Asking for a friend, who doesn't follow Wizards announcements very closely. His name's, uh, gryocen.
Wizards stated with this last B&R announcement that "Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.". It's at the bottom of the announcement here.
Hmm. Well double the announcements on our end but without any real need. I guess they will be meeting more regularly then?
We talk all the time anyway, so it's no big deal. Toby will actually be coming here for a week starting Sunday to take care of me while my wife is traveling. And we won't likely be doing updates in the post-Pro Tour slots, so it's pretty much the same for us.
We talk all the time anyway, so it's no big deal. Toby will actually be coming here for a week starting Sunday to take care of me while my wife is traveling. And we won't likely be doing updates in the post-Pro Tour slots, so it's pretty much the same for us.
Expected. The format is pretty stable by nature of being Eternal and little meta game.
A multiplayer victory has to exist beyond simply beating your opponent, there has to be a mutual enjoyment of everyone involved. If you win the game and everyone else is miserable then you've still lost. What gets played is irrelevant.
Yay, it's that time once again where the rules committee does literally nothing, why do even have one again?
To monitor how the format's health is and make adjustments if neccesary. Change for the sake of change is never a good idea.
That said, they really should just get on with it and unban Protean Hulk already.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Yay, it's that time once again where the rules committee does literally nothing, why do even have one again?
I remember this being something I'd say.
However, after lurking on many of the commander sub-forums, I've come to realize that it isn't really the RC that is the problem, but the players themselves. I mean, I don't think the RC ever envisioned A.) a similar format being created strictly for competetive players, or B.)that their very own format would succumb to competition.
I guess where I'm going with this, is that I enjoyed EDH 5-7 years ago, simply because the expectation was never to win, but to enjoy. Now, I rarely encounter a game that is enjoyable to anybody but the winning party. It almost seems as though I'd have to take out an ad in the local newspaper to find a "casual" game of EDH.
Yay, it's that time once again where the rules committee does literally nothing, why do even have one again?
For people whose job it is to keep a format healthy, getting that format to a point where they don't need to do anything to the format is EXACTLY what the goal is. And that's also not to say that they "literally" do nothing... they actually promised an update to the format philosophy document which help further clarify what they do. If you are really interested, I'd read this recent article on SCG by Sheldon on how they view the format.
I really hate the "format is in a healthy place" go to. It's stupid buzzword nonsense. Like, what does healthy mean? Fun? Thriving? Expanding? Stable? Stagnant? Not dead yet? And why even go with that description? I know being healthy is a good thing, but if somebody asks you "hey, how are things with you going?" and you respond "well, I'm healthy" they're going to wonder what's actually horribly wrong with you. It's like, "well, I hate my job, I'm alone, my car's a clunker, and people keep complaining that I haven't clipped my fingernails is 11 months, but I don't have cancer so I may as well keep on keepin' on!"
I can't stop anyone from saying it, I'm not your boss, but I want everyone to know that every time someone says "format" and "healthy" in the same sentence here, I'm (usually) silently wincing at it in the background. Also ban sol sing.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
For people whose job it is to keep a format healthy, getting that format to a point where they don't need to do anything to the format is EXACTLY what the goal is. And that's also not to say that they "literally" do nothing... they actually promised an update to the format philosophy document which help further clarify what they do. If you are really interested, I'd read this recent article on SCG by Sheldon on how they view the format.
Thanks for linking the article. I don't normally read SCG, so I wouldn't have found this otherwise.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
How would you rather they express this type of announcement?
When I typed that up at first, I had a comment about saying it a different way, and I think my example was "we're confident people are having fun with things as they are, so we're more comfortable leaving things be than changing them" before I deleted that bit because it occurred to me that might not be what healthy means to them. Health in other formats, particularly competitive ones, is pretty well defined as a varied meta, but that doesn't exactly apply here in "everyone play what you feel like first and worry about it actually working second" land. We just have millions of incredibly varied decks at all sorts of power levels anyway. Is that the metric? Cause they could ban 1000 cards or unban them all and I don't think the format would suffer for lack of deck variation. And I like to think of everyone having fun as the ultimate goal here, but it is definitely a "make your own fun" experience, so maybe I'm crazy for thinking of "health" that way since it's not the rules committee's job to make it fun for us.
I just spent a little too much time blipping around the internet in search of people describing the state of EDH as healthy or not, and things are just less clear than ever. Nobody ever says what that means. When people say something like Prophet of Kruphix is unhealthy, it could be about play variety. But when people were arguing that tuck was healthy, it was about game dynamics that had actually concentrated some card choices, and then when the whole format is called healthy, it's often followed by mentions of how many people are playing it as though that's the whole metric, but I'm pretty sure Worldfire wasn't banned assuming it would make people leave the format entirely. The more I ponder, the less I know what "healthy" is even meant to say.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
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As for other uses, it does do a lot of work making a good Thousand-Year Elixir impression in allowing creatures to reuse their activated abilities (minus the pseudo-haste of course), and activated abilities that don't cost mana will be especially good. I agree that this will be very, very good in a lot of decks once it gets going, but only time will tell just how good. (And just to clarify, Paradox Engine has the potential to be much, much better than Thousand-Year Elixir, but my point is that there are already commonly played cards that allow for commanders to use their activated abilities more than once a turn).
For me, I'm putting this into Bosh, Iron Golem, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, Captain Sisay, and potentially into Karn, Silver Golem if I ever get around to finishing it (and assuming I can get them for $8-$10 that they are currently going for). For someone that has 23 decks, that doesn't seem like something that is going to be as ubiquitous as some people claim.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Without mana you are getting maybe 1-2 untaps on your turn; that's not even as powerful as Seedborn Muse. What breaks this is generating mana with each spell you cast with some card draw sprinkled in. What you are describing are the fair uses that really won't make it unpleasant to play. Dralnu is the only thing I'd be afraid of since he will have double cantrips. But that still only works with mana rocks, too.
It may as well be a free To Arms! on each spell you cast (including the cantrip since you're not wasting a card on it). Has To Arms! broken the game when thrown on an Isochron Scepter? For that matter, what about Dramatic Reversal? If you're not chaining spells via mana rocks, this card is mediocre.
1) Empty Board where it is a do nothing
2) A couple of mana dorks or rocks or effects that gain very little
3) Into a board set up for combo that is pretty obvious in both run up and during cast.
4) As part of a mass artifact ressurection svent
The other fact of 3 and 4 is it is bunch of cards, efficient rocks, specific elves and Isochron that are well known threats.
Sure
Engine + Scepteter(Counterspell) + 2 blue mana in Rocks or Dorks is almost counter every spell ever played.
But that is as many pieces as a bunch of other things that are not banned.
As expected, no changes.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Phew! Every time the update comes around, I always seem to expect fast mana rocks to go away. Thankfully, it hasn't happened yet, and I hope for it to never happen.
[EDH Non-Primers] Newzuri | Breya
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
If you mean mana rocks like Mind Stone and Rakdos Signet, I don't think you ever have to worry.
You're a funny guy Sheldon.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
It is exasperating that people conflate the Signets and other mana rocks with fast mana. It feels like an intentional political-style obfuscation in the vein of the recent differentiation between Obamacare and the ACA that left so many people disenfranchised. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault are fast mana. Rakdos Signet is not. Worn Powerstone is not. Mind Stone is not. Coldsteel Heart is not.
Ask to test it in your playgroup. The worst they can say is no.
I think you know what I really meant, but thank you for being a funny man!
And OMG! Sheldon replied to a comment of mine! Exciting! Lol.
[EDH Non-Primers] Newzuri | Breya
Asking for a friend, who doesn't follow Wizards announcements very closely. His name's, uh, gryocen.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
You heard it here first folks. Simic Signet and Hedron Archive are on the chopping block....
I'm all for a Tooth and Nail ban, but I disagree that it has to be neither or both banned. Yes, they do very similar things, but I think that there are big enough differences between the two that it shouldn't be an all-or-nothing proposition.
Wizards stated with this last B&R announcement that "Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.". It's at the bottom of the announcement here.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
We talk all the time anyway, so it's no big deal. Toby will actually be coming here for a week starting Sunday to take care of me while my wife is traveling. And we won't likely be doing updates in the post-Pro Tour slots, so it's pretty much the same for us.
Expected. The format is pretty stable by nature of being Eternal and little meta game.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
To monitor how the format's health is and make adjustments if neccesary. Change for the sake of change is never a good idea.
That said, they really should just get on with it and unban Protean Hulk already.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I remember this being something I'd say.
However, after lurking on many of the commander sub-forums, I've come to realize that it isn't really the RC that is the problem, but the players themselves. I mean, I don't think the RC ever envisioned A.) a similar format being created strictly for competetive players, or B.)that their very own format would succumb to competition.
I guess where I'm going with this, is that I enjoyed EDH 5-7 years ago, simply because the expectation was never to win, but to enjoy. Now, I rarely encounter a game that is enjoyable to anybody but the winning party. It almost seems as though I'd have to take out an ad in the local newspaper to find a "casual" game of EDH.
For people whose job it is to keep a format healthy, getting that format to a point where they don't need to do anything to the format is EXACTLY what the goal is. And that's also not to say that they "literally" do nothing... they actually promised an update to the format philosophy document which help further clarify what they do. If you are really interested, I'd read this recent article on SCG by Sheldon on how they view the format.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I can't stop anyone from saying it, I'm not your boss, but I want everyone to know that every time someone says "format" and "healthy" in the same sentence here, I'm (usually) silently wincing at it in the background. Also ban sol sing.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Thanks for linking the article. I don't normally read SCG, so I wouldn't have found this otherwise.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
When I typed that up at first, I had a comment about saying it a different way, and I think my example was "we're confident people are having fun with things as they are, so we're more comfortable leaving things be than changing them" before I deleted that bit because it occurred to me that might not be what healthy means to them. Health in other formats, particularly competitive ones, is pretty well defined as a varied meta, but that doesn't exactly apply here in "everyone play what you feel like first and worry about it actually working second" land. We just have millions of incredibly varied decks at all sorts of power levels anyway. Is that the metric? Cause they could ban 1000 cards or unban them all and I don't think the format would suffer for lack of deck variation. And I like to think of everyone having fun as the ultimate goal here, but it is definitely a "make your own fun" experience, so maybe I'm crazy for thinking of "health" that way since it's not the rules committee's job to make it fun for us.
I just spent a little too much time blipping around the internet in search of people describing the state of EDH as healthy or not, and things are just less clear than ever. Nobody ever says what that means. When people say something like Prophet of Kruphix is unhealthy, it could be about play variety. But when people were arguing that tuck was healthy, it was about game dynamics that had actually concentrated some card choices, and then when the whole format is called healthy, it's often followed by mentions of how many people are playing it as though that's the whole metric, but I'm pretty sure Worldfire wasn't banned assuming it would make people leave the format entirely. The more I ponder, the less I know what "healthy" is even meant to say.