Most of those cards don't undo the entire game like Coalition Victory, Biorhytm, Sway and Worldfire do though. For example, yes, Obliterate nukes the field BUT life totals, hands and graves are still intact. This can be quite meaningful if you play a deck with a low-cost general or something that can abuse the grave on low mana.
Those other cards do not allow for such. You cast them, and either the game literally ends right there and then - no questions asked, which even T&N can't guarantee - Or the game is reset on a precariously low amount of life with an equal amount of resources for everyone, thus nullifying the entire game that happened before. That is the difference.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I typed this out in the Paradox Engine thread (but didn't post it yet) and it felt too much like a Ban or Not point, so I decided since I already typed it out, might as well transfer it here instead (I also think it's too early for a thread of its own, but I didn't want to retype the whole thing in the future and wanted this post somewhere as a reference point). So I guess better here then anywhere else...
Will it be powerful? Yes. Will it be centralizing? Time will tell.
This has potential to be Primeval Titan round 2 (okay fine round 3 or round 4), not because of its combo potential, but because of its generic goodness. Mana rocks are almost everywhere (almost equal to lands) which means this card will almost always benefit you even if you don't go infinite, the same way Titan does. Which means everyone might be itching to copy/steal/reanimate it for their own benefit, even if it doesn't combo off.
There are some things that go against that grain though, mainly:
1) It's an artifact, which is harder to copy/steal/reanimate than a creature. But at the same time, it's an artifact - any and every deck can run it as opposed to Titan and this gives it a larger base presence than Titan.
2) It requires existing mana rocks (or dorks) to substantially benefit from (even without combo). But at the same time, mana rocks are so common (dorks less so, but elves...) it's like saying Prophet needs creatures and lands to benefit from its effect.
It has a rather heavy dependence on artifact-related matters, which puts it at a tier lower than the cards already on the Banned List, but at the same time, are the artifacts involved already pretty much a mainstay as lands and creatures are?
Not advocating a quick-ban or any sorts, of course, but the card feels closer to the likes of Titan than the regular combo-pieces (DEN, Palinchron) because of its generic goodness rather than its combo-potential, so I think it has potential of being banned as a result.
Most of those cards don't undo the entire game like Coalition Victory, Biorhytm, Sway and Worldfire do though. For example, yes, Obliterate nukes the field BUT life totals, hands and graves are still intact. This can be quite meaningful if you play a deck with a low-cost general or something that can abuse the grave on low mana.
Those other cards do not allow for such. You cast them, and either the game literally ends right there and then - no questions asked, which even T&N can't guarantee - Or the game is reset on a precariously low amount of life with an equal amount of resources for everyone, thus nullifying the entire game that happened before. That is the difference.
Ok, so not much different than The Great Aurora or Worldpurge. I wanted to play Aurora as a green wrath and ended up blowing up games before deciding it didn't work that well as a sweeper. Decree of Annihilation also wipes out hands and graveyards even though it spares enchantments and planeswalkers. Unless you know it's coming, it's often a distinction without much meaning because all the cards basically render the game before it unrecognizable and I've seen occasionally used to set up a finishing move.
I typed this out in the Paradox Engine thread (but didn't post it yet) and it felt too much like a Ban or Not point, so I decided since I already typed it out, might as well transfer it here instead (I also think it's too early for a thread of its own, but I didn't want to retype the whole thing in the future and wanted this post somewhere as a reference point). So I guess better here then anywhere else...
Will it be powerful? Yes. Will it be centralizing? Time will tell.
This has potential to be Primeval Titan round 2 (okay fine round 3 or round 4), not because of its combo potential, but because of its generic goodness. Mana rocks are almost everywhere (almost equal to lands) which means this card will almost always benefit you even if you don't go infinite, the same way Titan does. Which means everyone might be itching to copy/steal/reanimate it for their own benefit, even if it doesn't combo off.
There are some things that go against that grain though, mainly:
1) It's an artifact, which is harder to copy/steal/reanimate than a creature. But at the same time, it's an artifact - any and every deck can run it as opposed to Titan and this gives it a larger base presence than Titan.
2) It requires existing mana rocks (or dorks) to substantially benefit from (even without combo). But at the same time, mana rocks are so common (dorks less so, but elves...) it's like saying Prophet needs creatures and lands to benefit from its effect.
It has a rather heavy dependence on artifact-related matters, which puts it at a tier lower than the cards already on the Banned List, but at the same time, are the artifacts involved already pretty much a mainstay as lands and creatures are?
Not advocating a quick-ban or any sorts, of course, but the card feels closer to the likes of Titan than the regular combo-pieces (DEN, Palinchron) because of its generic goodness rather than its combo-potential, so I think it has potential of being banned as a result.
Yeah, you can use it with a mana rock or two but that doesn't mean you can cast anything. If I could copy anything I'd rather have a Mana Reflection or Mirari's Wake or even Doubling Cube over it. You could even have your own Vorenclix now. Unwinding Clock might be nice too or Clock of Omens. Unless I had a bunch of mana rocks, it's not a card I'd really consider cloning. It just requires too much luck to get that much value out of unless you build your deck to abuse it. That doesn't mean you can't break it if you try, but it's just ok to bad otherwise depending on your hand and what other juicy targets there are.
Uhm, what? No different than Worldpurge or Great Aurora how? You can't float mana with the former, and the latter can easily backfire, but still affects the board equally.
As to Paradox Engine, I'd wager an average player can put 5+ mana on the board in terms of non-land sources. There are obviously expensive spells out of that reach, but none that I'd say put PE in a lesser category than Mana Reflection or Mirari's wake. They all share the same thing in common, you need something to cast with that heaping amount of mana, but where PE differs is that it can untap card advantage engines to keep the pedal down. Most are U, but some really powerful brown engines exist like Otherworld Atlas and Temple Bell. Or, just any buyback spell that costs the same or less than the amount of NL mana sources you have. Its not a matter of trying to break it, it'll just break on its own.
It needs to play tested for a while, but I ultimately agree with yash, it'll become the focal point of many games, much like PT.
I'm going to start slotting Copy Artifact into blue decks because I'm seeing Panharmoninon and probably Paradox Engine shortly. I'll be curious to see how the whole "I don't run it but everyone and their brother does" plays out.
Worldfire could backfire too. Do it a few times and people might start packing Lightning Bolt or something. Sway of the Stars, obviously nothing could go wrong giving the whole table 7 cards. Now, yeah, Worldpurge can't float mana but it still wrecks the entire game and you know it's coming so you can certainly time it for maximum benefit. There are flaws in all these big board wrecking spells but that applies to the banned and unbanned ones. Every one of them has their own little niche for how to best abuse it and slightly different risks for what might go wrong but at the end of the day, they all wreck the whole game up to that point and all of them have some way to break the symmetry and put yourself in a winning position with the exception of Victory that flatout ends the game but is countered the same way as any other creature combo and Biorhythm that ends in a draw if your creature gets killed in response.
Worldfire could backfire too. Do it a few times and people might start packing Lightning Bolt or something.
And how does that change things when everyones hand is exiled.
Sway of the Stars, obviously nothing could go wrong giving the whole table 7 cards.
Exactly, the whole table.
Now, yeah, Worldpurge can't float mana but it still wrecks the entire game and you know it's coming so you can certainly time it for maximum benefit.
Worldpurge is incredi-bad. You can't do anything nefarious with it unless built around, and if you're building around 7-mana sorcery that needs a metric-ton of help, well, good luck to you my friend.
There are flaws in all these big board wrecking spells but that applies to the banned and unbanned ones. Every one of them has their own little niche for how to best abuse it and slightly different risks for what might go wrong but at the end of the day, they all wreck the whole game up to that point and all of them have some way to break the symmetry and put yourself in a winning position with the exception of Victory that flatout ends the game but is countered the same way as any other creature combo and Biorhythm that ends in a draw if your creature gets killed in response.
No, they are not flawed. They take advantage of the rules. I'd like to see them come off, but I know why they are there.
I typed this out in the Paradox Engine thread (but didn't post it yet) and it felt too much like a Ban or Not point, so I decided since I already typed it out, might as well transfer it here instead (I also think it's too early for a thread of its own, but I didn't want to retype the whole thing in the future and wanted this post somewhere as a reference point). So I guess better here then anywhere else...
Will it be powerful? Yes. Will it be centralizing? Time will tell.
[....]
I think time will tell on this one - it definitely can be very busted in certain decks that utilize high amount of creature mana and artifact heavy decks like my Daretti. For now, I also look at it like a colorless Mirari's Wake and Mana Reflections.
[quote from="flaming infinity »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/commander-rules-discussion-forum/204400-general-discussion-of-the-official-multiplayer?comment=31676"]Worldfire could backfire too. Do it a few times and people might start packing Lightning Bolt or something.
And how does that change things when everyones hand is exiled.
Sway of the Stars, obviously nothing could go wrong giving the whole table 7 cards.
Exactly, the whole table.
Now, yeah, Worldpurge can't float mana but it still wrecks the entire game and you know it's coming so you can certainly time it for maximum benefit.
Worldpurge needing help is the same story as all the rest of the sweepers. Of course, if it's the same logic as Sway where its simply bad to be able to rest a game, it resets very simliarly to Sway. It's also somewhat better in that you know what everyone has to work with because it's from the board, not a random 7. What I mean by flawed, though, is that they all have some kind of opening where things can go wrong with it. Probably the most ideal would be Worldfire without the life setting or Sway without the life setting or draw 7. I still don't think it makes that much difference whether one of the banned or unbanned massive sweepers resolves, though. Sure, they aren't exactly the same but they all create basically the same undesirable gamestate and render the game before it meaningless. They also all have some way you can break the symmetry and give yourself the upper hand whether it's your commander, something temporarily exiled, something indestructible, a permanent of a type that isn't removed, or something you cast with floated mana. Jokulhaups is probably the easiest to break, though, because it's only 6 mana like Upheaval or maybe Apocalypse since it's only 5. I'd love to know whether Sway, Upheaval, Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, and Worldfire would really rank as the top 5 unfun compared to Jokuhaups, Apocalypse, Devastation, Decree, Armageddon/Ravages/Bust/Catastophe, Desolation Angel, Ruination, Cataclysm, Great Aurora, Worldpurge, Warp World, or Thieves' Auction, though. All 20 will probably lead to about the same amount of groan worthiness whether they're just used to be a dick or as a finishing move.
I'll spell it out for you.
The banned cards invalidate everything that happened before it and put everyone either on exactly equal footing, or win the game literally on the spot.
The unbanned cards reset the board, maybe the hand, but don't invalidate what happened before. If you Worldpurge while you're at 1 life, your prospects aren't looking good. If you Sway of the Stars at 1 life, everyone gets put back on equal footing. The Great Aurora fully depends on how everyone built up their board positions. Bad players will try to use it as a Green wrath. Good players will use it as either a storm card or a way to fully solidify their on-board advantage. But it (and Warp World) still depend a lot on what happened before, and don't invalidate what happened up until that point.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I'll spell it out for you.
The banned cards invalidate everything that happened before it and put everyone either on exactly equal footing, or win the game literally on the spot.
The unbanned cards reset the board, maybe the hand, but don't invalidate what happened before. If you Worldpurge while you're at 1 life, your prospects aren't looking good. If you Sway of the Stars at 1 life, everyone gets put back on equal footing. The Great Aurora fully depends on how everyone built up their board positions. Bad players will try to use it as a Green wrath. Good players will use it as either a storm card or a way to fully solidify their on-board advantage. But it (and Warp World) still depend a lot on what happened before, and don't invalidate what happened up until that point.
None of them will be exactly equal. You can even play an EOT flicker on a Blightsteel and then Sway/Worldfire or any of the others. There's also Day of the Dragons, Oblivion Rings including a black one. I'm sure there's other cards you can use for temporary exile as well. Sway is a bit harder to abuse than some of the others but it's still abusable. Worldfire is also very risky because if someone does have a way to deal with it like an EOT flicker, you're in trouble.
Great Aurora can totally backfire too. What I meant by wreck games with it is that it ends up doing random things like giving one person zero lands and another gets a huge pile of them. Even having a larger amount of permanents before it doesn't mean you come out ahead often enough. I'm not saying they should ban Great Aurora/Warp world or anything. I'm just saying they don't actually work out that well quite often since they're incredibly random. Of course, I actually like random like Chaos Warp or that Bottle of Wishes card (referencing the Kaijudo Card that does a similar effect)
I'm going to start slotting Copy Artifact into blue decks because I'm seeing Panharmoninon and probably Paradox Engine shortly. I'll be curious to see how the whole "I don't run it but everyone and their brother does" plays out.
I'd slot it in anyways because of Sol Ring and a number of other 1-5 cmc artifacts. But the two newer ones are definitely reasonable targets.
Well, WotC just put out their ban list announcement, I'm honestly expecting Sheldon to say everything is peachy as it currently stands in regards to the ban list.
Well, WotC just put out their ban list announcement, I'm honestly expecting Sheldon to say everything is peachy as it currently stands in regards to the ban list.
Yeah, anything else would be a surprise, although it'll be a pleasant one for me if Iona got the boot
Paradox Engine is definitely going on that extended "test" period in the format when it comes out. I expect a statement about it with regards to the format when Sheldon reviews the set.
Short of something very degenerate, I expect to see Paradox Engine in the format for quite some time. It has to go through its "shiny new" phase for at least 3-6 months before anyone can even wager a guess on how ubiquitous it will be.
I expect that we are going to hear about Paradox Engine a lot, especially when people talk about fast mana (specifically when they are talking about the best mana rocks in Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, etc.). Paradox Engine doesn't just synergize well with Sol Ring, etc.; it breaks them in half. It also completely negates the "drawback" on cards like Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, and Basalt Monolith by untapping them for free. People are going to be able to do some pretty silly things with Paradox Engine and people are going to complain about it... the writing is on the wall.
But the thing to consider is this; Is Paradox Engine just going to be a really good mana rock (albeit with a CMC of 5) in most decks? Without a draw engine, is Paradox Engine really breaking the game? Is a card that explicitly asks you to overextend with creatures or other artifacts in order to be "broken" just like any other card that has done the same over the years where everyone freaks out over every best-case-scenario without taking into account how often things don't work out that way? I mean, I get it that if I'm building a dedicated Storm deck that runs 20 other artifact sources of mana already, or if I'm running Arcum Daggson or Sharuum the Hegemon then this is going to be yet another way to do silly things, but Paradox Engine doesn't seem to me to be the thing that will push these decks into being unbeatable nor do I think that it will be the thing that solves their weaknesses.
If we look at Paradox Engine with a more critical eye, I think people will start to see that it has some fundamental problems that are not so easily overcome. First off, you need a critical mass of things to untap; this is easy in theory, but much harder to accomplish in reality for any group that values mass removal. Even something like Mycosynth Lattice doesn't guarantee anything (except maybe mutually assured mass destruction). Second off, if you've dedicated resources to the board so that PE has things to untap, how much gas are you going to have in hand to start really abusing the mana production? Third, draw engines that allow you to "go off" are limited; a card like Glimpse of Nature or Beck is limited to just playing out more creatures (and playing more into a Wrath effect), and a card like Vedalken Archmage is limited to playing out more artifacts (and playing into a Disk or Vandalblast). The one that actually scares me a bit is Lunar Mystic because the drawback of having to pay for each card is practically nullified and facing a barrage of Instants will culminate in an instant win (although now you are adding another class of cards to your deck that doesn't synergize with PE, so I doubt you'll end up with a critical mass of stuff to untap and stuff to draw you cards without fizzling), or a card like Necropotence will allow you to play 6 to 7 cards per turn once you get going can be scary even if you aren't really "going off" combo-wise.
In all of these scenarios, especially the "best-case" (or "worst-case" depending on your position) scenarios, we are talking about having at least 2 specific cards in play or in hand along with a critical mass of stuff to untap with PE. There are many groups of cards that can fall into this kind of scenario, and granted that Paradox Engine seems a little better than your normal run-of-the-mill 3+ card combo, it is still a 3+ card combo. I don't think that the practical usage of the card will end up warranting it's banning based on that.
Maybe I'm not seeing PE for its full potential, but it seems to me like it should be treated like a Mana Reflection that can do a Mind Over Matter impression sometimes.
Maybe I'm not seeing PE for its full potential, but it seems to me like it should be treated like a Mana Reflection that can do a Mind Over Matter impression sometimes.
Except it's infinitely easier to cast, and has other broken interactions beside just being a mana-producer.
I will say I am not suggesting we just ban this off some knee-jerk reaction, I'm just simply pointing out that the potential for this card to break games is eerily similar to the way Primetime did and PoK did. This card will find its way into decks that don't have anyway to really abuse it other than as a mana-producer simply because it's that good. I mean, Primetime was still good even when you weren't going for Urborg/Coffers, same applies here. At the very worst, you have a repeatable To Arms sans cantrip pasted onto every spell.
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Those other cards do not allow for such. You cast them, and either the game literally ends right there and then - no questions asked, which even T&N can't guarantee - Or the game is reset on a precariously low amount of life with an equal amount of resources for everyone, thus nullifying the entire game that happened before. That is the difference.
Paradox Engine
Will it be powerful? Yes. Will it be centralizing? Time will tell.
This has potential to be Primeval Titan round 2 (okay fine round 3 or round 4), not because of its combo potential, but because of its generic goodness. Mana rocks are almost everywhere (almost equal to lands) which means this card will almost always benefit you even if you don't go infinite, the same way Titan does. Which means everyone might be itching to copy/steal/reanimate it for their own benefit, even if it doesn't combo off.
There are some things that go against that grain though, mainly:
1) It's an artifact, which is harder to copy/steal/reanimate than a creature. But at the same time, it's an artifact - any and every deck can run it as opposed to Titan and this gives it a larger base presence than Titan.
2) It requires existing mana rocks (or dorks) to substantially benefit from (even without combo). But at the same time, mana rocks are so common (dorks less so, but elves...) it's like saying Prophet needs creatures and lands to benefit from its effect.
It has a rather heavy dependence on artifact-related matters, which puts it at a tier lower than the cards already on the Banned List, but at the same time, are the artifacts involved already pretty much a mainstay as lands and creatures are?
Not advocating a quick-ban or any sorts, of course, but the card feels closer to the likes of Titan than the regular combo-pieces (DEN, Palinchron) because of its generic goodness rather than its combo-potential, so I think it has potential of being banned as a result.
As to Paradox Engine, I'd wager an average player can put 5+ mana on the board in terms of non-land sources. There are obviously expensive spells out of that reach, but none that I'd say put PE in a lesser category than Mana Reflection or Mirari's wake. They all share the same thing in common, you need something to cast with that heaping amount of mana, but where PE differs is that it can untap card advantage engines to keep the pedal down. Most are U, but some really powerful brown engines exist like Otherworld Atlas and Temple Bell. Or, just any buyback spell that costs the same or less than the amount of NL mana sources you have. Its not a matter of trying to break it, it'll just break on its own.
It needs to play tested for a while, but I ultimately agree with yash, it'll become the focal point of many games, much like PT.
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And how does that change things when everyones hand is exiled.
Exactly, the whole table.
Worldpurge is incredi-bad. You can't do anything nefarious with it unless built around, and if you're building around 7-mana sorcery that needs a metric-ton of help, well, good luck to you my friend.
No, they are not flawed. They take advantage of the rules. I'd like to see them come off, but I know why they are there.
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And how does that change things when everyones hand is exiled.
Exactly, the whole table.
Worldpurge needing help is the same story as all the rest of the sweepers. Of course, if it's the same logic as Sway where its simply bad to be able to rest a game, it resets very simliarly to Sway. It's also somewhat better in that you know what everyone has to work with because it's from the board, not a random 7. What I mean by flawed, though, is that they all have some kind of opening where things can go wrong with it. Probably the most ideal would be Worldfire without the life setting or Sway without the life setting or draw 7. I still don't think it makes that much difference whether one of the banned or unbanned massive sweepers resolves, though. Sure, they aren't exactly the same but they all create basically the same undesirable gamestate and render the game before it meaningless. They also all have some way you can break the symmetry and give yourself the upper hand whether it's your commander, something temporarily exiled, something indestructible, a permanent of a type that isn't removed, or something you cast with floated mana. Jokulhaups is probably the easiest to break, though, because it's only 6 mana like Upheaval or maybe Apocalypse since it's only 5. I'd love to know whether Sway, Upheaval, Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, and Worldfire would really rank as the top 5 unfun compared to Jokuhaups, Apocalypse, Devastation, Decree, Armageddon/Ravages/Bust/Catastophe, Desolation Angel, Ruination, Cataclysm, Great Aurora, Worldpurge, Warp World, or Thieves' Auction, though. All 20 will probably lead to about the same amount of groan worthiness whether they're just used to be a dick or as a finishing move.
The banned cards invalidate everything that happened before it and put everyone either on exactly equal footing, or win the game literally on the spot.
The unbanned cards reset the board, maybe the hand, but don't invalidate what happened before. If you Worldpurge while you're at 1 life, your prospects aren't looking good. If you Sway of the Stars at 1 life, everyone gets put back on equal footing. The Great Aurora fully depends on how everyone built up their board positions. Bad players will try to use it as a Green wrath. Good players will use it as either a storm card or a way to fully solidify their on-board advantage. But it (and Warp World) still depend a lot on what happened before, and don't invalidate what happened up until that point.
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Wizards doesn't update the official B&R until January 16th.
Their twitter page posted that it is getting announced today.
Ok, thanks.
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Great Aurora can totally backfire too. What I meant by wreck games with it is that it ends up doing random things like giving one person zero lands and another gets a huge pile of them. Even having a larger amount of permanents before it doesn't mean you come out ahead often enough. I'm not saying they should ban Great Aurora/Warp world or anything. I'm just saying they don't actually work out that well quite often since they're incredibly random. Of course, I actually like random like Chaos Warp or that Bottle of Wishes card (referencing the Kaijudo Card that does a similar effect)
Ominous.
I'd slot it in anyways because of Sol Ring and a number of other 1-5 cmc artifacts. But the two newer ones are definitely reasonable targets.
Yeah, anything else would be a surprise, although it'll be a pleasant one for me if Iona got the boot
Paradox Engine is definitely going on that extended "test" period in the format when it comes out. I expect a statement about it with regards to the format when Sheldon reviews the set.
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UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
But those cards don't have any synergy with PE. All PE needs are any mana rocks/dorks and a way to keep drawing cards.
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But the thing to consider is this; Is Paradox Engine just going to be a really good mana rock (albeit with a CMC of 5) in most decks? Without a draw engine, is Paradox Engine really breaking the game? Is a card that explicitly asks you to overextend with creatures or other artifacts in order to be "broken" just like any other card that has done the same over the years where everyone freaks out over every best-case-scenario without taking into account how often things don't work out that way? I mean, I get it that if I'm building a dedicated Storm deck that runs 20 other artifact sources of mana already, or if I'm running Arcum Daggson or Sharuum the Hegemon then this is going to be yet another way to do silly things, but Paradox Engine doesn't seem to me to be the thing that will push these decks into being unbeatable nor do I think that it will be the thing that solves their weaknesses.
If we look at Paradox Engine with a more critical eye, I think people will start to see that it has some fundamental problems that are not so easily overcome. First off, you need a critical mass of things to untap; this is easy in theory, but much harder to accomplish in reality for any group that values mass removal. Even something like Mycosynth Lattice doesn't guarantee anything (except maybe mutually assured mass destruction). Second off, if you've dedicated resources to the board so that PE has things to untap, how much gas are you going to have in hand to start really abusing the mana production? Third, draw engines that allow you to "go off" are limited; a card like Glimpse of Nature or Beck is limited to just playing out more creatures (and playing more into a Wrath effect), and a card like Vedalken Archmage is limited to playing out more artifacts (and playing into a Disk or Vandalblast). The one that actually scares me a bit is Lunar Mystic because the drawback of having to pay
In all of these scenarios, especially the "best-case" (or "worst-case" depending on your position) scenarios, we are talking about having at least 2 specific cards in play or in hand along with a critical mass of stuff to untap with PE. There are many groups of cards that can fall into this kind of scenario, and granted that Paradox Engine seems a little better than your normal run-of-the-mill 3+ card combo, it is still a 3+ card combo. I don't think that the practical usage of the card will end up warranting it's banning based on that.
Except it's infinitely easier to cast, and has other broken interactions beside just being a mana-producer.
Phenax, God of Deception is going to have a field day. Dralnu, Lich Lord I'm sure will be able to abuse it. Caltain Sisay can both tutor for it and benefit from it. Heartless Hidjetsu, Krenko, Mob Boss, I mean, why is it that we are only looking at this as mana-producer?
I will say I am not suggesting we just ban this off some knee-jerk reaction, I'm just simply pointing out that the potential for this card to break games is eerily similar to the way Primetime did and PoK did. This card will find its way into decks that don't have anyway to really abuse it other than as a mana-producer simply because it's that good. I mean, Primetime was still good even when you weren't going for Urborg/Coffers, same applies here. At the very worst, you have a repeatable To Arms sans cantrip pasted onto every spell.