MTG Salvation

Quote from LouCypher »

Hilariously enough, the typical Flash Hulk combo simply doesn't work in Commander. Impossible to stuff enough of the required effects into the deck.
And call it arguing semantics. When a card that comboes off only if you kill it off and even then requires a rather specific deck setup vs a card that comboes out just by casting it and only needs 2 special cards in the deck gets slanted the way the current banlist allows for, you know there's an error in the list. And that error lies in the fears of the Flash Hulk deck, which is a demon of the past. Same reason Worldgorger Dragon was banned. Hulk can be played much more fairly than many cards not on the banlist, for any definition of fair.

Hulk is just as "fair" as TnN. You either put cards in your deck that turn it into a wincon or you don't. Beyond that, the apologists argue that green can tutor/recur creatures more easily than it can for sorceries, while the other side argues that you can't look at the color in a vacuum. And then the real back and forth debate begins.

I'm not trying to argue Hulk at all. I'm just running with it as an example of the frustrations that Jusstice, Buffsam, and others here have when we debate the ban list.

Quote from cryogen »

I'm just running with it as an example of the frustrations that Jusstice, Buffsam, and others here have when we debate the ban list.

I have a very different opinion on the banlist from you, but that doesn't frustrate me, per se.

We all have different visions, and we'll always try to show our points of view to others, hence the discussions going as they go.

That said, I think you misunderstood one thing Cryogen; I don't want T&N banned and Hulk unbanned. I want them to share a fate, preferably on the unban side of things as it's never been the RC's point to police combos, only bad interactions with the format/cards that due to the format's nature are much stronger as they should be. Hulk does not fill that bill.

The only real issue I have with the ban list was when they did away with having two separate lists (one for creatures that could be in the 99 but not be the commander and one that couldn't be in the deck at all). Braids for instance I totally get not being usable as a commander, but as part of the 99 I knew several people that ran her as part of the 99 and it was manageable.

So I am not one to come in asking about the validity of banning certain cards but I think

Selvala's Stampede deserves a discussion.

It seems to me to fit all the requirements of something that would be put under consideration.

Ubiquity - It is that perfect level of good that it will see play up and down the power curve, and is not that expensive so that will be even more expanded.
Power - Average Multiplayer game is 4 that is typically 3 things from the hand and a creature depending on circumstances
Cost - Unlike its big brother Expropriate 6 mana sorcery for this much value is never a bad deal

Obviously the card has one gigantic downside in that if you have no cards in your hand it becomes flip for the first creature in your deck (having no cards in hand is a thing that did not however get in the way of Prophet of Kruphix being banned).

What do you guys think?

Not really meeting any criteria so far.

Never seen it nor heard of it being cast. Never seen it in a deck list. Ubiquity might be a tough sell.
Power isnt a ban criteria.
Sure it can get you 4 creatures, and then someone wipes.

I have no doubt of its power, but just like so many cards at 6 mana: have an answer, team up, or die.

Plus it gets worse as the game goes on. Doubtful it gets a serious consideration, let alone a ban.

Echoing MRHblue - It's also influenced by what each player votes and you can whiff on it by getting nothing but mana dorks. The randomness of the effect overcomes a lot of broken potential.

Quote from Cranial_extraction »

It's time to unban some stuff.

I think Tolarian Academy is deserving of some time off the list.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Recurring Nightmare and Braids off the list but let's start somewhere.

Yes. But please not with Tolarian Academy. I think Protean Hulk should come off before that, and then Gifts Ungiven, as neither fulfills the ban list requirements.

I'm all for unbans, but since so much time has passed; I'm starting to accept that the 6 borderline cards that are currently banned are just never going to be unbanned; those being Gifts Ungiven, Painter's Servant, Panoptic Mirror, Protean Hulk, Recurring Nightmare, and Trade Secrets.

If and when the RC does decide to unban a card in the future, I expect it to be something completely unforseen, like what happened with the Metalworker unban. Perhaps Time Vault, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, or Biorhythm, we'll have to wait and see what surprise they have planned.

I could definately go for Academy, Gifts, Painter's, Mirror, Hulk, Emrakul, and Biothythm. Infact I've never even seen a physical copy of Biorhythm in my life. That's how popular of a card it is. Time Vault is nothing but a combo piece, but do we really need to kick the hyper competitive crowd in the teeth like that? It'll end up like a $1500 card no one can get their hands on and be one of the premier infinite combo pieces out there. Trade Secrets, I've never seen cast outside of the precon but it does interact poorly with the multiplayer nature of the format about as badly as limited resources.

I'm almost certain Biorythm wouldn't have been banned had it been printed now instead of when it was. With the huge amount of indestructible dudes that are playable now, it isn't even necessarily going to be able to win on the spot unless you're the one to play an exile/tuck wrath on top of it in the same turn. That's 14 mana unless you get lucky and get Hallowed Burial and then you have to get a creature into play yourself so it's probably going to run more than Emrakul unless you play stuff like Memnite. I think 3 card combos that cost over 15 mana would be really amusing. I really think it was a victim of the time when it was printed like Emrakul. Afterall, back when Emrakul was printed, we didn't really have all the game ending giant creatures and spells we have now. It was a big fish in a pond with very few fish at all. It was a time when Searing Wind was played. It was a time when there were groups that thought Time Stretch was the most broken card ever printed. Back then, if you wanted an army out of one card that could do serious damage, Crush of Wurms and Storm Herd was it. Emrakul is the most powerful creature, but we have a ton of cards that cost a lot less that can end the game just as easily now as Emrakul or Biorhythm. Of course, Emrakul is also even more dangerous now due to the legend rule change so even if it isn't played enough to make Bribery come back, if you play it out, you're opening yourself up to people making their own copy. Of course, some people will play it and some people will have a bad day, but without the time walk from casting it, there's actually a good chance it might even be the person that put it onto the field that has a bad day.

Without desiring to trudge through a thousand pages of discussion - anyone know why doomsday isn't banned? It seems like the sort of card that can ONLY be used for degenerate purposes. At least with HD and ad nauseum and stuff like that you have some argument that they're playable legitimately. I guess the banlist is for stuff that can be used fairly but always gravitates toward unfairness, whereas doomsday you basically have to start with unfairness?

Idk it seems weird that it's never been banned to me, and I don't even see much discussion about it. There's essentially no fun way to use the card, it's basically the same as coalition victory where it's just a boring i-win button that serves no other purpose.

Quote from DirkGently »

Without desiring to trudge through a thousand pages of discussion - anyone know why doomsday isn't banned? It seems like the sort of card that can ONLY be used for degenerate purposes. At least with HD and ad nauseum and stuff like that you have some argument that they're playable legitimately. I guess the banlist is for stuff that can be used fairly but always gravitates toward unfairness, whereas doomsday you basically have to start with unfairness?

Idk it seems weird that it's never been banned to me, and I don't even see much discussion about it. There's essentially no fun way to use the card, it's basically the same as coalition victory where it's just a boring i-win button that serves no other purpose.

You said it yourself: It's pretty much ONLY a boring I-win card with degenerate use only (not counting the hilarity of Hind Mind shenanigans. As far as I know, the RC isn't worried too much any more about those types of cards.

Quote from Zygous »

If and when the RC does decide to unban a card in the future, I expect it to be something completely unforseen, like what happened with the Metalworker unban. Perhaps Time Vault, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, or Biorhythm, we'll have to wait and see what surprise they have planned.

Interesting, we had talked about Metal Worker for a few months with real feedback from the RC. I was not the least bit surprised.

Quote from cryogen »

Quote from DirkGently »

Without desiring to trudge through a thousand pages of discussion - anyone know why doomsday isn't banned? It seems like the sort of card that can ONLY be used for degenerate purposes. At least with HD and ad nauseum and stuff like that you have some argument that they're playable legitimately. I guess the banlist is for stuff that can be used fairly but always gravitates toward unfairness, whereas doomsday you basically have to start with unfairness?

Idk it seems weird that it's never been banned to me, and I don't even see much discussion about it. There's essentially no fun way to use the card, it's basically the same as coalition victory where it's just a boring i-win button that serves no other purpose.

You said it yourself: It's pretty much ONLY a boring I-win card with degenerate use only (not counting the hilarity of Hind Mind shenanigans. As far as I know, the RC isn't worried too much any more about those types of cards.

Well, the same can be said, even more literally, about coalition victory, and that remains banned (not that I want it unbanned).

Can't say I've actually ever seen doomsday played at my LGS, so I guess it's not ruining actual games of commander, so maybe it's fair. I wonder how many people would play coalition victory were it legal.

Quote from DirkGently »

Well, the same can be said, even more literally, about coalition victory, and that remains banned (not that I want it unbanned).

Can't say I've actually ever seen doomsday played at my LGS, so I guess it's not ruining actual games of commander, so maybe it's fair. I wonder how many people would play coalition victory were it legal.

True, but CV can be jammed into quite literally any 5c deck, and if it resolves you probably just won the game. Doomsday requires 4-5 cards to make it work, and has opportunities for disruption after the spell resolves.

Coalition Victory can be responded to just like any Tooth and Nail combo, Kiki Jiki combo, or other creature combo, though. Plenty of commanders have instant win one card combos as well that are harder to stop. I don't see why it comboing with every 5 color commander is a big deal. Stuff like Teferi-Pool can't even be league ruled out either unless you ban something. Of course, that's probably an argument for unbanning Worldfire and I'm not sure what, exactly, anyone did with Sway of the Stars other than be a dick that got it banned. I guess you could float some mana and be assured of playing your commander or something so I guess it's a combo with some commander that has blue in it that can finish people off. I mean if you just want to be a dick, we have plenty of other cards you can cast like Decree of Annihilation. I mean sure they might not lead to fun gamestates, but I don't see how any of those 3 cards is anything but yet another combo and I don't see how anyone could accidentally wreck a game with them unlike say, Sylvan Primordial where someone plays them and an opponent decides to go off with it. There's also a lot of combos that cost less and are, you know, better. That Teferi-Pool lock can even be split over 2 turns since it involves a flash commander and then isn't really even possible to respond to the non commander piece. Combo players are going to combo no matter what.

Coalition Victory can be responded to just like any Tooth and Nail combo, Kiki Jiki combo, or other creature combo, though. Plenty of commanders have instant win one card combos as well that are harder to stop. I don't see why it comboing with every 5 color commander is a big deal. Stuff like Teferi-Pool can't even be league ruled out either unless you ban something. Of course, that's probably an argument for unbanning Worldfire and I'm not sure what, exactly, anyone did with Sway of the Stars other than be a dick that got it banned. I guess you could float some mana and be assured of playing your commander or something so I guess it's a combo with some commander that has blue in it that can finish people off. I mean if you just want to be a dick, we have plenty of other cards you can cast like Decree of Annihilation. I mean sure they might not lead to fun gamestates, but I don't see how any of those 3 cards is anything but yet another combo and I don't see how anyone could accidentally wreck a game with them unlike say, Sylvan Primordial where someone plays them and an opponent decides to go off with it. There's also a lot of combos that cost less and are, you know, better. That Teferi-Pool lock can even be split over 2 turns since it involves a flash commander and then isn't really even possible to respond to the non commander piece. Combo players are going to combo no matter what and even Omniscience looks more tempting for non combo use until you realize it costs as much mana as almost any card you can play so you may as well just play your expensive cards normally. Coalition Victory is even nice enough to literally write the words you win the game on it so inexperienced players will know for sure the game is over without explanation.

Quote from flaming infinity »

Coalition Victory can be responded to just like any Tooth and Nail combo, Kiki Jiki combo, or other creature combo, though. Plenty of commanders have instant win one card combos as well that are harder to stop. I don't see why it comboing with every 5 color commander is a big deal. Stuff like Teferi-Pool can't even be league ruled out either unless you ban something. Of course, that's probably an argument for unbanning Worldfire and I'm not sure what, exactly, anyone did with Sway of the Stars other than be a dick that got it banned. I guess you could float some mana and be assured of playing your commander or something so I guess it's a combo with some commander that has blue in it that can finish people off. I mean if you just want to be a dick, we have plenty of other cards you can cast like Decree of Annihilation. I mean sure they might not lead to fun gamestates, but I don't see how any of those 3 cards is anything but yet another combo and I don't see how anyone could accidentally wreck a game with them unlike say, Sylvan Primordial where someone plays them and an opponent decides to go off with it. There's also a lot of combos that cost less and are, you know, better. That Teferi-Pool lock can even be split over 2 turns since it involves a flash commander and then isn't really even possible to respond to the non commander piece. Combo players are going to combo no matter what.

Sway of the Stars may as well literally read "Restart the Game, everyone's life total becomes seven." It basically resets everything that happened before it was cast, and that's why it's banned.

Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you. You're also giving all your opponents 7 cards which is way worse for winning with whatever you have than similar effects. I've been quite aware of the tag line for it on the banned list for a long time, but that doesn't explain why it's actually a good idea to play the card other than being a dick. Afterall, the completeness of this wipe makes it a lot harder to abuse it. Considering it was banned long after it was printed, it wasn't banned with little play like Worldfire who's logic was mostly that Sway was banned. Of course, I can see the Worldfire, play your commander play, but I don't see why it's worse than Teferi-pool, Niv-Mizzet-curiousity Kiki-Jiki-Zealous Conscripts Avacyn, Angel of Hope-Armageddon, or any other 1 card combo that doesn't cost 10 mana. Afterall, like people keep saying, combo players are gonna combo but for some reason, it's the 8 and 10 mana, hard to abuse combo cards banned (Biorhythm, Sway, and Worldfire) and Coalition Victory that's no more abuseable than Tooth and Nail, Kiki, etc. That just says we'll ban the combo cards but only the really bad ones that cost almost as much or even more than Tooth and Nail. At least Painter's and Hulk have the problem that an opponent could use them to combo off easily and Gifts can combo off by itself even though you can't do it cheaper without playing cards only usable for combo. The other cards are just combos that are really, really bad. Banning 8-10 mana trash combo and not banning strong combo like Ad Nauseam and Hermit Druid actually is pretty weird. If combo isn't banned for, all 7 of those cards could easily come off, especially since all of them besides Hulk and Painter's cost a stupid amount of mana to combo and Hulk requires a whole **** ton of stuff in your deck like Druid. I don't even like combo in commander and I think there isn't much logic to keeping them banned.

Quote from flaming infinity »

Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you.

I dont think its about helping you as much as its just undesirable to reset a game an hour in just because you don't like where its at.

Flaming infinity, you are equating cards on the ban list which can be added to any Deck in a particular color and using a specific general as your counterexample. Don't you see a problem with thease comparisons?

Quote from MRHblue »

Quote from flaming infinity »

Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you.

I dont think its about helping you as much as its just undesirable to reset a game an hour in just because you don't like where its at.

Yeah, it's got the same issue as Shahrazad: making an already-long game even longer.

Quote from MRHblue »

Quote from flaming infinity »

Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you.

I dont think its about helping you as much as its just undesirable to reset a game an hour in just because you don't like where its at.

Is that really a banned list issue or just being a dick? I mean you could do about the same thing with Decree of Annihilation, Obliterate, Jokulhaups, Armageddon after a wipe, etc. Banning Sway doesn't really help that since there's way too many cards you can be a dick with if you want.

Quote from cryogen »

Flaming infinity, you are equating cards on the ban list which can be added to any Deck in a particular color and using a specific general as your counterexample. Don't you see a problem with thease comparisons?

If they were actually desirable to put in a deck other than to combo or be a dick, it might be a point, but they all lead to very similar gamestates of one player doing all the playing or winning instantly. I don't really see how adding them to the banned list really makes the format better when there are much better ways to lock a table or instantly win. As much mana as they cost, they aren't even really the best way to go about it if you wanted to.

Quote from Mercury01 »

Quote from MRHblue »

Quote from flaming infinity »

Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you.

I dont think its about helping you as much as its just undesirable to reset a game an hour in just because you don't like where its at.

Yeah, it's got the same issue as Shahrazad: making an already-long game even longer.

How does restarting the game with everyone at 7 make it longer? It probably makes it shorter since everyone gets 7 and cutting someone down from 7 life is a hell of a lot easier than 40. Even something like Solemn Simulacrum is a real threat at 7 life. Now, you could argue wrecking an interesting game, but a lot of cards can do that, like, say, Storm Cauldron Warp World or Planar Chaos. I have no desire to play with anything like Sway of the Stars, though, so I don't really care other than taking cards off the banned list that don't really need to be there.

I'm not following the conversation all too well here, so forgive me if this is completely out of context, but I always thought Sway of the Stars fell into the same camp of cards like Worldfire, Biorhythm, and Coalition Victory? That it was just another game ending spell with little interesting application and seemingly invalidates every play before it? It being banned has less to do with it being a useful strategy and more to do with it creating undesirable gameplay. It quite literally restarts the game with 7 life totals, only leaving the exile intact.

On a side note, I think Coalition Victory may receive my vote as most deserving card on the banned list.

Yeah, they can create undesirable game states, but not any less desirable than lots of other cards no one even mentions. It's not like you can ban all the cards like them because there's a bunch of them. Of course, any board wipe pretty much wipes out the entire gamestate, especially ones like Planar Cleansing. I don't think anyone can argue that unbanning them would really add anything to the format, but I really doubt we'd see much of them anyway. I actually don't remember any complaints about Sway or Worldfire in actual play before they were banned. The others were banned before I started playing commander, but I seriously doubt there was much actual game play behind the bans, especially since I started way back in 2008 before the format really took off. They're mostly just taking up space on the list for little reason since the only people that would likely want to play them just want to troll and they'll just move on the the next troll card just like the combo players and the best combos. I mean its pretty much every other set we see some card that can create some kind of extremely undesirable game state. These just cost some of the most absurd amounts of mana to wreck a game while lots of other ones cost 5-7 mana instead of 8-10.