If they ever unbanned p9 it would at least give me an excuse to buy into vintage XD. I don't think its a good idea but if They did they should do it before Christmas so I can get my sister to buy me a black lotus XD.
Except, imagine the feel bads when someone loses to a piece of the P9 that is potentially valued greater than the cumulative value of every Magic card they will ever own.
It's perceived. Meaning it does not need to actually be a barrier.
It also promotes a more inclusive format rather than the connotation of Vintage-legal power that would give the perception that players were priced out of EDH.
Except, imagine the feel bads when someone loses to a piece of the P9 that is potentially valued greater than the cumulative value of every Magic card they will ever own.
It's perceived. Meaning it does not need to actually be a barrier.
It also promotes a more inclusive format rather than the connotation of Vintage-legal power that would give the perception that players were priced out of EDH.
But banning vintage-legal power has nothing to do with people being priced out of edh. It's not even the price that's the issue. Those cards don't even exist. Exact numbers don't really exist on either of these things, but rough estimates put the current amount of magic players at something like 1000x the amount any of the power were printed. Even if there were no collectors, even if there were none destroyed, even if estimates are off by a power of 10 on both numbers, that's still a solid 90$ of magic players that literally cannot own them regardless of the value. The chances of any given edh player ever seeing a piece of power in a paper game of edh would still be incredibly low with them all legal, and if they did lose that way, it wouldn't chase them out of the format, it would chase them away from just the one guy with the $10,000 deck. And people already are avoiding that one guy with the $3000 deck anyway.
Frankly, if you want a perceived barrier in edh based on price or exclusivity, it's probably the idea many people have that a working 5 color mana base requires hundreds of dollars to build. And that's got nothing to do with banning cards, that's Wizard's fault.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
That said, is there any reason to even consider the unbanning of any of the P9 pieces? Do we really want more bonkers fast mana in the game? Do we really want blue to have access to Recall and Walk?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
That said, is there any reason to even consider the unbanning of any of the P9 pieces? Do we really want more bonkers fast mana in the game? Do we really want blue to have access to Recall and Walk?
No, there is no need to add them to the format. It will certainly not make it healthier.
That said, is there any reason to even consider the unbanning of any of the P9 pieces? Do we really want more bonkers fast mana in the game? Do we really want blue to have access to Recall and Walk?
No, there is no need to add them to the format. It will certainly not make it healthier.
At the same time, would it really make the format any worse? If people wanted to play with those cards, instead of keeping them in good condition for value, then it is on them. Some would argue a T1 Lotus is more fair than a T1 Sol Ring.
I can understand 8 of the 9 cards being banned for other criteria, but Timetwister really wouldn't break the format and I don't know what other criteria it would fall under...
I do really think that the "perceived" part is the key word though for the criteria. It doesn't need to be an actual phenomenon for there to be a perception that both the power and price are standard features of EDH decks. Their legality (the 8 of 9 P9 pieces) would send the wrong message about the format when players see they are legal, imo.
I don't really have anything to say about Library. It seems strong, but not clearly format warping or creating a perceived barrier. I don't think it creates the perceived barrier that the rest of the P9 do.
In a perfect world, I do think Library could be unbanned. The problem is that it needed to happen a few years ago.
I used to be strongly in favor of a LoA unban, but that was when the card was much cheaper. I knew unbanning it would make the price go up, but I figured it would still be expensive but more comparable to most pricy legends cards. LoA suffered a buy out thet drove up the price this year and now I'm concenred that the base price of the card is way to high; so that there is no way an unbanning could be good.
As a card, it's most powerful in the early turns of the game; during which somebody playing one and drawing several cards with it sends to signal to the other players "Deal with me!" which is kinda the justification for early Ring/Crypt being not bannable. Drawing with it puts you a turn behind on mana, but up an extra card. Drawing it mid or late game, it's probably dead due to either being under 7 or over 7; after all, this is a format where players can easily get huge hands of cards easily thanks to Reliquary Tower and any EDH calibur draw spell. I'm doubtful that it impacts the game in a more powerful/ban worthy way then something like Phyreian Arena or Rhystic Study already do.
The biggest obstacle I see to making library legal, is that it's not a $200-$300 card anymore. Even a poor condition or damaged LoA is pushing over double that now. Unbanning LoA would probably push the card up into Mox level price ranges (if it isn't their already).
I just don't see how unbanning it could result in anything other then a disaster; the RC makes an annoucment that LoA is unbanned because PbE doesn't apply to it, people who've never heard of the card go and look it up because they want to get one, BAM! It's $1,400 and the jaws hit the desks, 10 minutes later: digital ink is flying and the forums are on fire.
It seems to me that, unabnning LoA would just create a lot of bad blood between average players and the RC for a card that isn't even that good and whose unbanning is doing much more to help speculators then it would be to help EDH players.
That said, is there any reason to even consider the unbanning of any of the P9 pieces? Do we really want more bonkers fast mana in the game? Do we really want blue to have access to Recall and Walk?
No, there is no need to add them to the format. It will certainly not make it healthier.
I dunno, what do you mean by healthier? If you mean balance, then no. If you mean the occasional old fogey finally having a chance to play his Mox Ruby, then yeah, it might actually be healthier.
The presence of several generations of preconstructed decks, as well as the “just for fun” philosophy, probably go a long way toward dispelling any (inaccurate) perceived barrier to entry that isn’t already there. Do you disagree?
That said, is there any reason to even consider the unbanning of any of the P9 pieces? Do we really want more bonkers fast mana in the game? Do we really want blue to have access to Recall and Walk?
No, there is no need to add them to the format. It will certainly not make it healthier.
I dunno, what do you mean by healthier? If you mean balance, then no. If you mean the occasional old fogey finally having a chance to play his Mox Ruby, then yeah, it might actually be healthier.
The presence of several generations of preconstructed decks, as well as the “just for fun” philosophy, probably go a long way toward dispelling any (inaccurate) perceived barrier to entry that isn’t already there. Do you disagree?
I don't know if I've thought about it enough in that light to agree or disagree. I suppose a good deal of the PBtE is probably ingrained in the older players (who arguably have already "entered"). We could certainly use the same data point--not that many players have power--to support both sides of the argument. There's just no significant upside to allowing power in to offset the potential damage. I don't mind taking risks, but there has to be a reward as well. I'm just not seeing it here.
As much as I dont really give in to the comments about sol ring / mana crypt (I like them in meta), I honestly dont want to see who can fork over the most money to have a significant advantage in the game that I feel that packing a handful of moxes into every deck would represent. I have to imagine those who do want sol ring / mana crypt would be against the idea of unbanning moxes. I have to agree that it would be cool for some random person who has been sitting on a mox for 20+ years to be able to play it but I also dont want to see this game deteriorate into who can spirit bomb the biggest cash pool on their decks.
I am a player who owns a lot of expensive and niche cards but they are exactly that. They are generally niche cards that go with a certain type of playstyle rather than a card that needs to be auto inserted into every deck. I dont mind these cards nearly as much because they dont belong everywhere and those who do not own them are not at a serious disadvantage because they do not own them (usually).
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
As much as I dont really give in to the comments about sol ring / mana crypt (I like them in meta), I honestly dont want to see who can fork over the most money to have a significant advantage in the game that I feel that packing a handful of moxes into every deck would represent. I have to imagine those who do want sol ring / mana crypt would be against the idea of unbanning moxes. I have to agree that it would be cool for some random person who has been sitting on a mox for 20+ years to be able to play it but I also dont want to see this game deteriorate into who can spirit bomb the biggest cash pool on their decks.
I am a player who owns a lot of expensive and niche cards but they are exactly that. They are generally niche cards that go with a certain type of playstyle rather than a card that needs to be auto inserted into every deck. I dont mind these cards nearly as much because they dont belong everywhere and those who do not own them are not at a serious disadvantage because they do not own them (usually).
The thing is, those players already exist. For a lot of players, buying fetchlands and other format staples is that cutoff right now where having a deep wallet is what separates you from your opponent. Most unique cards from the early sets like Legends have reached that "Moxen" price. The actual P9 is so ungodly expensive that none but the top 0.1% will actually be able to acquire any in the event they became legal.
And of course, this assumes that any of the P9 is safe to unban. Time Walk stays bannedo for sure. The Moxen are fine individually, but too powerful when you have access to potentially all 5. Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall are more questionable, as is Libray.
Time Walk is fine. If you're going to abuse infinite turns or something, you're going to do it anyway. We have tons of time walks and plenty of copy spells and return spells. Moxen also aren't all that great in lower powered decks. They get caught in too many wraths. Now, Recall is pretty sweet.
Time Walk is fine. If you're going to abuse infinite turns or something, you're going to do it anyway. We have tons of time walks and plenty of copy spells and return spells. Moxen also aren't all that great in lower powered decks. They get caught in too many wraths. Now, Recall is pretty sweet.
The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree. Moxen probably wouldn't be used in lower powered decks, but then again, high-power competitive decks are not the target audience for the ban list, either.
The mythical five-mox deck would be so rare that I would say it's a non-issue, and probably a sight to behold. It's like if Richard Garfield himself wanted to play Splendid Genesis in a deck. (well, maybe not that rare...)
Sol Ring --> Arcum Dagsson and Leovold --> Wheel are more pressing "issues" than moxen floating around, I think.
The moxen in my Progenitus deck are mostly for show. They're usually more of a liablity than a benefit. I serously doubt they improve a precon or any deck I've played with/against all that much. Now, they are good for Tezzeret 1 to have more "artifact lands" to tutor up for free and give Enlightened Tutor a "land" to grab, but that's hardly game breaking.
The Moxen are the definition of "strictly better". You would be hard pressed to name a deck in which you wouldn't want to replace a basic lands with a Mox. And yes, in singularity one Mox isn't format breaking, but imagine if all five were legal. Now three color decks have FIVE turn one mana rocks that are mana advantageous. Six if you count Black Lotus. That sort of explosive start is what the RC probably wants to limit. Worse, that deck did better because it has more money and therefore can pay to speed up their game by 1+ turn. They add nothing positive to the format.
The Moxen are the definition of "strictly better". You would be hard pressed to name a deck in which you wouldn't want to replace a basic lands with a Mox. And yes, in singularity one Mox isn't format breaking, but imagine if all five were legal. Now three color decks have FIVE turn one mana rocks that are mana advantageous. Six if you count Black Lotus. That sort of explosive start is what the RC probably wants to limit. Worse, that deck did better because it has more money and therefore can pay to speed up their game by 1+ turn. They add nothing positive to the format.
What percentage of decks will actually include multiple Moxen, though? One in a thousand? One in ten thousand?
Like I said, I don't 100% agree with the idea, but I'm glad we are discussing it.
What percentage of decks will actually include multiple Moxen, though? One in a thousand? One in ten thousand?
Like I said, I don't 100% agree with the idea, but I'm glad we are discussing it.
Perceived Barrier to Entry isn't about actual facts so much as it is the feelings behind it. In the early days, the RC didn't want there to be a perception that this was Vintage with larger decks, even if anyone who has played the format for a month can tell you that you don't need Power to build a deck.
I hold to the opinion that PBtE is antiquated and cards should be evaluated on their own merit, regardless of how much the card is expected to see play (remember, Iona is a card that overy 50% of players in the poll want banned despite there being little indication that she sees much play in the format). For the Moxen, I don't feel that they add anything to the format and there are legitimate reasons to keep them banned that have nothing to do with feelings and perceptions.
I was playing a game last night where I stumbled on my land drops for I think 2 turns on turns 5 and 6. I managed to find my lands and do a decent Sun Titan play and get some good value and lands around turn 7. The mono red player had a good start and he was in the lead. He ended up killing me as I stabilized by swinging for like 24 over the top using Raging River to mess up my blocks. It was a cool play from the mono red deck and he was doing really good. He had good threat assessment as I was going to wrath him next turn with my Oblivion Stone that until then I had not enough mana for.
In comparison at that turn there was also a Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck who had his commander, a Zombie Token, Kiora's Follower, and some random 1 powered creature in play. I agree with the red player's threat assessment of removing me when he did. The sidisi player on his turn then just cast a Craterhoof Behemoth from hand and swing for 38 dmg (lethal) on the red player.
This game just yet again brings to mind the epic lamness that is craterhoof to me. The board state that sidis had was not good by any means but the fact that he had a few junk creatures and 8 mana meant that he could just completely remove a player from the game without any effort. The red player had been playing on curve and been playing good threats that added up as well as means to make his creatures connect. I would not have been upset if instead a wrath happened and the red player struggled to rebuild but the craterhoof for an insta kill was just dumb. I really hate that this card is still considered acceptable.
All this talk of moxen has gotten me thinking about Ancestral Recall. Sure, it's great. Sure, it would be an immediately inclusion in storm and other cut-throat decks. But is being +2 for U really that good in multiplayer EDH? This is the format where a lot of people in U don't bother playing Brainstorm after all.
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
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It's perceived. Meaning it does not need to actually be a barrier.
It also promotes a more inclusive format rather than the connotation of Vintage-legal power that would give the perception that players were priced out of EDH.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
But banning vintage-legal power has nothing to do with people being priced out of edh. It's not even the price that's the issue. Those cards don't even exist. Exact numbers don't really exist on either of these things, but rough estimates put the current amount of magic players at something like 1000x the amount any of the power were printed. Even if there were no collectors, even if there were none destroyed, even if estimates are off by a power of 10 on both numbers, that's still a solid 90$ of magic players that literally cannot own them regardless of the value. The chances of any given edh player ever seeing a piece of power in a paper game of edh would still be incredibly low with them all legal, and if they did lose that way, it wouldn't chase them out of the format, it would chase them away from just the one guy with the $10,000 deck. And people already are avoiding that one guy with the $3000 deck anyway.
Frankly, if you want a perceived barrier in edh based on price or exclusivity, it's probably the idea many people have that a working 5 color mana base requires hundreds of dollars to build. And that's got nothing to do with banning cards, that's Wizard's fault.
No, there is no need to add them to the format. It will certainly not make it healthier.
I can understand 8 of the 9 cards being banned for other criteria, but Timetwister really wouldn't break the format and I don't know what other criteria it would fall under...
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EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
What about Library? It offers a unique effect and the power of the card has been highly disputed.
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I don't really have anything to say about Library. It seems strong, but not clearly format warping or creating a perceived barrier. I don't think it creates the perceived barrier that the rest of the P9 do.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
I used to be strongly in favor of a LoA unban, but that was when the card was much cheaper. I knew unbanning it would make the price go up, but I figured it would still be expensive but more comparable to most pricy legends cards. LoA suffered a buy out thet drove up the price this year and now I'm concenred that the base price of the card is way to high; so that there is no way an unbanning could be good.
As a card, it's most powerful in the early turns of the game; during which somebody playing one and drawing several cards with it sends to signal to the other players "Deal with me!" which is kinda the justification for early Ring/Crypt being not bannable. Drawing with it puts you a turn behind on mana, but up an extra card. Drawing it mid or late game, it's probably dead due to either being under 7 or over 7; after all, this is a format where players can easily get huge hands of cards easily thanks to Reliquary Tower and any EDH calibur draw spell. I'm doubtful that it impacts the game in a more powerful/ban worthy way then something like Phyreian Arena or Rhystic Study already do.
The biggest obstacle I see to making library legal, is that it's not a $200-$300 card anymore. Even a poor condition or damaged LoA is pushing over double that now. Unbanning LoA would probably push the card up into Mox level price ranges (if it isn't their already).
I just don't see how unbanning it could result in anything other then a disaster; the RC makes an annoucment that LoA is unbanned because PbE doesn't apply to it, people who've never heard of the card go and look it up because they want to get one, BAM! It's $1,400 and the jaws hit the desks, 10 minutes later: digital ink is flying and the forums are on fire.
It seems to me that, unabnning LoA would just create a lot of bad blood between average players and the RC for a card that isn't even that good and whose unbanning is doing much more to help speculators then it would be to help EDH players.
The presence of several generations of preconstructed decks, as well as the “just for fun” philosophy, probably go a long way toward dispelling any (inaccurate) perceived barrier to entry that isn’t already there. Do you disagree?
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I don't know if I've thought about it enough in that light to agree or disagree. I suppose a good deal of the PBtE is probably ingrained in the older players (who arguably have already "entered"). We could certainly use the same data point--not that many players have power--to support both sides of the argument. There's just no significant upside to allowing power in to offset the potential damage. I don't mind taking risks, but there has to be a reward as well. I'm just not seeing it here.
As much as I dont really give in to the comments about sol ring / mana crypt (I like them in meta), I honestly dont want to see who can fork over the most money to have a significant advantage in the game that I feel that packing a handful of moxes into every deck would represent. I have to imagine those who do want sol ring / mana crypt would be against the idea of unbanning moxes. I have to agree that it would be cool for some random person who has been sitting on a mox for 20+ years to be able to play it but I also dont want to see this game deteriorate into who can spirit bomb the biggest cash pool on their decks.
I am a player who owns a lot of expensive and niche cards but they are exactly that. They are generally niche cards that go with a certain type of playstyle rather than a card that needs to be auto inserted into every deck. I dont mind these cards nearly as much because they dont belong everywhere and those who do not own them are not at a serious disadvantage because they do not own them (usually).
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The thing is, those players already exist. For a lot of players, buying fetchlands and other format staples is that cutoff right now where having a deep wallet is what separates you from your opponent. Most unique cards from the early sets like Legends have reached that "Moxen" price. The actual P9 is so ungodly expensive that none but the top 0.1% will actually be able to acquire any in the event they became legal.
And of course, this assumes that any of the P9 is safe to unban. Time Walk stays bannedo for sure. The Moxen are fine individually, but too powerful when you have access to potentially all 5. Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall are more questionable, as is Libray.
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The mythical five-mox deck would be so rare that I would say it's a non-issue, and probably a sight to behold. It's like if Richard Garfield himself wanted to play Splendid Genesis in a deck. (well, maybe not that rare...)
Sol Ring --> Arcum Dagsson and Leovold --> Wheel are more pressing "issues" than moxen floating around, I think.
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Like I said, I don't 100% agree with the idea, but I'm glad we are discussing it.
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Perceived Barrier to Entry isn't about actual facts so much as it is the feelings behind it. In the early days, the RC didn't want there to be a perception that this was Vintage with larger decks, even if anyone who has played the format for a month can tell you that you don't need Power to build a deck.
I hold to the opinion that PBtE is antiquated and cards should be evaluated on their own merit, regardless of how much the card is expected to see play (remember, Iona is a card that overy 50% of players in the poll want banned despite there being little indication that she sees much play in the format). For the Moxen, I don't feel that they add anything to the format and there are legitimate reasons to keep them banned that have nothing to do with feelings and perceptions.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
In comparison at that turn there was also a Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck who had his commander, a Zombie Token, Kiora's Follower, and some random 1 powered creature in play. I agree with the red player's threat assessment of removing me when he did. The sidisi player on his turn then just cast a Craterhoof Behemoth from hand and swing for 38 dmg (lethal) on the red player.
This game just yet again brings to mind the epic lamness that is craterhoof to me. The board state that sidis had was not good by any means but the fact that he had a few junk creatures and 8 mana meant that he could just completely remove a player from the game without any effort. The red player had been playing on curve and been playing good threats that added up as well as means to make his creatures connect. I would not have been upset if instead a wrath happened and the red player struggled to rebuild but the craterhoof for an insta kill was just dumb. I really hate that this card is still considered acceptable.
TLDR: Craterhoof Behemoth is super lame.
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[Modern] Allies
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect