MTG Salvation

Quote from cryogen »

Hey Sheldon, while you're here, and commentary on the polls so far? I know the sample size is still small and limited to a subsection of a subsection of players, but there are some interesting (if not expected) results so far.

My primary commentary is that it was annoying that after voting on each section, I got dumped back up to the top of the page and had to scroll down to the next section.

You're right, sample size is small, although the Iona trending is thought-provoking.

Quote from Sheldon »

My primary commentary is that it was annoying that after voting on each section, I got dumped back up to the top of the page and had to scroll down to the next section.

You're right, sample size is small, although the Iona trending is thought-provoking.

My biggest reservations about doing the poll like this was the mechanics of it. I dislike that because the polls take up so much real estate at the top there is little point in saying anything in the OP since it will get buried. The voting thing as well is frustrating. But wait, does this mean you participated? I thought you guys didn't bother.

Yeah, I figured since I was curious to see the results, I'd participate. I voted party lines

Quote from Sheldon »

Yeah, I figured since I was curious to see the results, I'd participate. I voted party lines

You even voted to keep Recurring Nightmare banned? You monster! You were supposed to be our hero that would let degeneracy reign supreme.


Edit: But yeah, I didn't think about the unfortunate side effect of needing to vote in order to see results.

Yeah, I think you don't understand my position on RN: it would be fine for me, because I wouldn't abuse it (really, I swear). Trusting other people with that much power is scary. I'd probably trust Toby, but we're already getting to my limit.

Quote from Sheldon »

Yeah, I think you don't understand my position on RN: it would be fine for me, because I wouldn't abuse it (really, I swear). Trusting other people with that much power is scary. I'd probably trust Toby, but we're already getting to my limit.

I think the fair uses of that card are far and few between. I'm content to draft it in my cube every once in a while, but I have no desire to face it every week in regular games.

Quote from Sheldon »

Cryogen is correct.

So you're unbanning Painter's Servant and banning Iona, Shield of Emeria? O frabjous day! Callooh, Callay!

Quote from Sheldon »

Yeah, I think you don't understand my position on RN: it would be fine for me, because I wouldn't abuse it (really, I swear). Trusting other people with that much power is scary. I'd probably trust Toby, but we're already getting to my limit.

Here's the thing with that: we have enough cards that can approximate its effect now. I have a deck based on doing specifically thins with Wake the Dead, Corpse Dance, and Cauldron Dance. Throw in an Eternal Witness/Greenwarden of Murasa and you can generate value every turn.

Aside from the minor timing restrictions (although sorcery speed vs only during combat isn't that different), this is just as difficult to interact with. What really remains that makes RN such an offender other than its compact nature?

Quote from ProfessorWhen »

Here's the thing with that: we have enough cards that can approximate its effect now. I have a deck based on doing specifically thins with Wake the Dead, Corpse Dance, and Cauldron Dance. Throw in an Eternal Witness/Greenwarden of Murasa and you can generate value every turn.

Aside from the minor timing restrictions (although sorcery speed vs only during combat isn't that different), this is just as difficult to interact with. What really remains that makes RN such an offender other than its compact nature?

Well for one thing, those all target or are otherwise limiting in nature, cost more mana, and/or are one shot effects, meaning it requires more hoops to jump through in order to sustain. I think the biggest thing going for trying to free RN is the more plentiful ways to keep it from being effective, such as quality counterspells, more graveyard hate, and creature removal.

Quote from cryogen »

Quote from ProfessorWhen »

Here's the thing with that: we have enough cards that can approximate its effect now. I have a deck based on doing specifically thins with Wake the Dead, Corpse Dance, and Cauldron Dance. Throw in an Eternal Witness/Greenwarden of Murasa and you can generate value every turn.

Aside from the minor timing restrictions (although sorcery speed vs only during combat isn't that different), this is just as difficult to interact with. What really remains that makes RN such an offender other than its compact nature?

Well for one thing, those all target or are otherwise limiting in nature, cost more mana, and/or are one shot effects, meaning it requires more hoops to jump through in order to sustain. I think the biggest thing going for trying to free RN is the more plentiful ways to keep it from being effective, such as quality counterspells, more graveyard hate, and creature removal.

RN targets, too. If you exile RN's target, all they've done is pay 3 mana to sac a creature. Wake the Dead needs only 1 valid target to stay on the stack, so it's usually mass removal to deal with it.

But isn't the primary concern for RN something along the lines of "you won't want to do anything else" when you have it and "it's difficult to interact with?" I don't rememeber the exact quotes, but that's the general idea. Corpse Dance works with just a sac outlet and Wake the Dead/Cauldron Dance just need EWit to be one of the creatures. I'll tell you that Wake the Dead is extremely powerful at generating ETB value over and over and over.

While I agree that RN requires less mana investment, since when is that an issue? If that were an actual banning criteria, don't you think Sol Ring/Mana Crypt would be under scrutiny when compared with the alternatives?

Quote from ProfessorWhen »

RN targets, too. If you exile RN's target, all they've done is pay 3 mana to sac a creature. Wake the Dead needs only 1 valid target to stay on the stack, so it's usually mass removal to deal with it.

But isn't the primary concern for RN something along the lines of "you won't want to do anything else" when you have it and "it's difficult to interact with?" I don't rememeber the exact quotes, but that's the general idea. Corpse Dance works with just a sac outlet and Wake the Dead/Cauldron Dance just need EWit to be one of the creatures. I'll tell you that Wake the Dead is extremely powerful at generating ETB value over and over and over.

While I agree that RN requires less mana investment, since when is that an issue? If that were an actual banning criteria, don't you think Sol Ring/Mana Crypt would be under scrutiny when compared with the alternatives?

My bad, I was misremembering the card. For some reason I had it in my head that it didn't target the creature in your graveyard. But yes, those are basically the things the RC said about it. I definitely agree with them that once you have a nice loop set up its pretty much the only thing you want to do. I also believe it is much easier to interact with nowadays.

Glanced at the poll, and Iona is currently sitting at 40 votes. Of the cards which are currently banned, only 15 of the 34 cards tie or exceed that number of votes. People really want Iona banned. It makes me wish the official forum could support polls, and that someone on Reddit would host a poll as well.

Quote from cryogen »

Glanced at the poll, and Iona is currently sitting at 40 votes. Of the cards which are currently banned, only 15 of the 34 cards tie or exceed that number of votes. People really want Iona banned. It makes me wish the official forum could support polls, and that someone on Reddit would host a poll as well.

What i found most interesting was how few want to keep gifts ungiven banned


Let us eot gifts plz

Other noteworthy "currently banned" standouts (After my vote):
Braids, Cabal Minion - 29
Protean Hulk - 28
Painter's Servant - 24
Those and Gifts are the only ones still under 30. I think that sends a rather clear message.

Quote from LouCypher »

Other noteworthy "currently banned" standouts (After my vote):
Braids, Cabal Minion - 29
Protean Hulk - 28
Painter's Servant - 24
Those and Gifts are the only ones still under 30. I think that sends a rather clear message.

There is a clear message there, but I don't know how useful it is. Maybe not so much with Braids, but the other 3 are decidedly the most often discussed unbans on the forums here, and that throws into question the cause and effect here. The poll certainly indicates that this community would unban those cards (and I'm pretty sure I my response was to free all 4 of them), but do they get that response here because players overall feel that way, or do they get that response here because we all talk about them so much? How many other cards would people change their vote on if people had spent that amount of time justifying their unbanning? I feel like short of the Power 9 8, a dedicated enough campaign for any one card could shift the votes here significantly for the next poll while being totally inconsequential to whether the card should actually be unbanned.

Quote from tstorm823 »

There is a clear message there, but I don't know how useful it is. Maybe not so much with Braids, but the other 3 are decidedly the most often discussed unbans on the forums here, and that throws into question the cause and effect here. The poll certainly indicates that this community would unban those cards (and I'm pretty sure I my response was to free all 4 of them), but do they get that response here because players overall feel that way, or do they get that response here because we all talk about them so much? How many other cards would people change their vote on if people had spent that amount of time justifying their unbanning? I feel like short of the Power 9 8, a dedicated enough campaign for any one card could shift the votes here significantly for the next poll while being totally inconsequential to whether the card should actually be unbanned.

It's also worth mentioning that because the sample size is a lot smaller so far (as compared to the first year when we have a much larger sample size), we should take into account that many of the votes are by the more enfranchised users who are already participating in this forum.

No changes, removal of the House Rules section from rules section.

"26 Sep 2016

Banned List: No Changes

Rules: No Changes*

It’s been an exciting summer for Commander players, with the release of Eldritch Moon, Conspiracy: Take the Crown, and now Kaladesh. New cards, new mechanics, and new versions of a few old friends mean new directions for deck builders to explore. It’s even more exciting to us that the format is in such a healthy place that no changes are required. As we do each time, we examined cards from both sides of the banned list and found the balance much to our liking. As the Rules Committee celebrates our tenth year, we remain committed to actively maintaining that equilibrium. We look forward to sharing the ride with you for the next ten.

* One small change we've made is to remove the House Rules page from the web site. Having it there has led to some confusion about which rules are official and which aren't, specifically sideboards (or "wish boards" as they're called). In our continuing effort to clarify and simplify, we've chosen to remove the confusion. We nonetheless encourage you to develop your own house rules where the Official Rules don't fit your local groups."

http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18371

Well, boo to that again. I mean I guess the format isn't in a bad place, but there's still plenty of tuneups that could be done.

Yup, 'tis to be expected.

Although I am glad they did away with the House Rules section, which was very out-of-date.

Good news with no new bans, imo. Agree with the House Rules page removal just for confusion, it's not like people with wishboards, etc. didn't have to ask about them every time they sat down regardless of what the page said. Obviously not removing the concept of House Rules, which I still support are a crucial part of the format even if they don't work in most public settings.

Would still like BaaC back, which is my biggest gripe (whoever is voting to "#FreeBraids" on the Dream BL Poll and not also voting #FreeRofellos is dead to me), and think a couple things could be unbanned, but the format is in a pretty great place and I still love it. I'd always like a few less bans, but I'm not losing much sleep over anything currently on the list other than Rofellos (Sheldon, I am begging you here).

Honestly, if they are as reliant on houserules as they say, I think it might be nice for them to update and fix up the houserules section and present it is a pick-and-choose deal. This would be somewhat more final than what compromises a group might have to make that no one ends up liking.

Looking at the results of the polls, I think we can safely draw a few conclusions. First, the desire to see "broken" cards banned are really only limited to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. None of the tutors are receiving any meaningful support, with demonic tutor leading its pack at 8 votes. Second, the results are somewhat expected. Gifts, Painter, and Hulk are seeing the the same 50/50 divide (roughly) that we saw in their individual threads. And perhaps most surprising is Iona, which has an approximately 75% "we want this banned" vote. If there is any take away here, it is that the RC need to continue to discuss her and what is best for the format.

Quote from cryogen »

And perhaps most surprising is Iona, which has an approximately 75% "we want this banned" vote.

Are you able to see something I'm not seeing? When I click to view the results in that particular poll my poll reads that 52.6% of users (at this current point in time) voted to nix Iona.

Also, how is it that only roughly 70% of users have voted to keep cards like Time Walk, Time Vault, and Ancestral Recall banned?

28.9% voted for Sol Ring and Mana Crypt thus far. That's honestly not really a majority.