RN's sorcery speed limitation makes it pretty easy to beat just by removing creatures. It's a powerful engine, but there're plenty of powerful engines. Survival is a straight up stronger card with far more broken applications.
I know the RC doesn't pander to the whole "this card is much less broken than X, so should be allowed" but I think it's a pretty egregious example of a lame ban in my opinion.
I see no reason for RN to remain on the ban list. Yes, you'd see it a lot, but we already see a lot of reanimation shenanigans and at instant speed too. Without Griselbrand in the format, I see zero reason to be concerned with reanimation. Play grave hate and removal or scoop'em up. Life's tough princess
But GY hate does not stop RN. Sure you won't see that target come back out, but RN went back to the person's hand as part of the cost. You may have delayed it, but you stopped nothing.
And once again, there are answers to every card, some still need to be banned. The distinct lack of interaction with this card makes it really a ban directly in context of the games the RC wants to promote to me.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
But GY hate does not stop RN. Sure you won't see that target come back out, but RN went back to the person's hand as part of the cost. You may have delayed it, but you stopped nothing.
And once again, there are answers to every card, some still need to be banned. The distinct lack of interaction with this card makes it really a ban directly in context of the games the RC wants to promote to me.
But it does stop RN if you time it right. Player A casts RN. Player B crypts player A's gy in response. RN sits in play like a brick.
To be fair, if someone casts a RN while there's a Crypt on the field, the RN player kind of deserves to lose.
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Oh for sure Lou, but it was just an example. You could welder in your crypt or flash in a loaming shaman or just remove the targets any number of other(instant) ways. As long as there are no targets in the gy RN is a brick.
True, if you play very poorly RN could become a brick. Thats hardly a useful piece of the discussion though, since we are assuming terrible plays are not the basis for or against bans.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
True, if you play very poorly RN could become a brick. Thats hardly a useful piece of the discussion though, since we are assuming terrible plays are not the basis for or against bans.
True, if you play very poorly RN could become a brick. Thats hardly a useful piece of the discussion though, since we are assuming terrible plays are not the basis for or against bans.
I don't see how having someone flash a loaming shaman up against you while you cast RN is an example of "poor play", I'm just pointing out the fairly obvious line that TN is not all that difficult to play against.
You don't have to remove the gy targets to brick RN either. If you clear their board of creatures it works too. That's doable at instant speed for virtually every colour.
RN was first banned when the amount of gy hate was distinctly subpar. I don't think it really fits under any of the current banning criteria. I think it's fairly reasonable to lobby for an unban.
I don't see how having someone flash a loaming shaman up against you while you cast RN is an example of "poor play", I'm just pointing out the fairly obvious line that TN is not all that difficult to play against.
I was speaking to the playing RN into a Crypt. Of course you can't know they have a shaman hiding to disrupt you. That does not make RN 'not at all difficult to play against' to me. Like I said, all cards have answers.
You don't have to remove the gy targets to brick RN either. If you clear their board of creatures it works too. That's doable at instant speed for virtually every colour.
RN was first banned when the amount of gy hate was distinctly subpar. I don't think it really fits under any of the current banning criteria. I think it's fairly reasonable to lobby for an unban.
That's cool, but lots of people are going to poke holes in that because it's not a love fest for RN. It might be a 'boogeyman', but its not some brick that folds to tons of broad removal as has been insinuated here.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
For all the talk about how easy it is to deal with Recurring Nightmare, when I look at the Top 50 list, unless a player casts RN with only one creature on the field or in the yard, the only ways to stop RN while it's on the stack are Rout, Rakdos Charm, and Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. Of course, blue has any number of counterspells and Cyclonic Rift variants. But the argument being placed is that there are more ways than blue to deal with RN.
What about discard? If it is true that a good player keeps RN in hand instead of on the battlefield, doesn't any Wheel effect or EDH-worthy discard spell take care of it?
For all the talk about how easy it is to deal with Recurring Nightmare, when I look at the Top 50 list, unless a player casts RN with only one creature on the field or in the yard, the only ways to stop RN while it's on the stack are Rout, Rakdos Charm, and Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. Of course, blue has any number of counterspells and Cyclonic Rift variants. But the argument being placed is that there are more ways than blue to deal with RN.
I think the biggest issue is that it bones newer players pretty hard for the response route but aren't there other cards legal right now that do the same if not worse?
For all the talk about how easy it is to deal with Recurring Nightmare, when I look at the Top 50 list, unless a player casts RN with only one creature on the field or in the yard, the only ways to stop RN while it's on the stack are Rout, Rakdos Charm, and Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. Of course, blue has any number of counterspells and Cyclonic Rift variants. But the argument being placed is that there are more ways than blue to deal with RN.
I think the biggest issue is that it bones newer players pretty hard for the response route but aren't there other cards legal right now that do the same if not worse?
Survival of the Fittest comes to mind. The difference is that it is easier to identify RN as the threat in the situation, as opposed to SotF which gets overlooked in favor of the creatures it tutors. RN is easier for new players to complain about since it is obviously the enabler. I cannot tell you how often my Survival stays around against learning players, who instead blow up my Gilded Lotuses or Grave Pacts even when I advise them to nuke the Survival. The same thing happens with stuff like Hermit Druid (even when not used to combo), Fecundity, and basically anything that is subtly powerful. I think this phenomenon often skews the "data" used to adjudicate the banned list.
I think the biggest issue is that it bones newer players pretty hard for the response route but aren't there other cards legal right now that do the same if not worse?
Yes I get that. There are plenty of answers to Recurring Nightmare. The point I've been bringing up and is largely being ignored/brushed aside is simply that the strong answers that currently get played are far and few between. I think it's safe to say that commonly played cards (spot removal, board wipes, counterspells) are at best minimal answers. Spot removal doesn't work when the RN player has more than one creature in play. Counterspells are limited to one color (and I'm fairly sure the RC would not be happy for a worldwide meta shift into blue permission). Wraths are good, but slow so RN is merely delayed a little, while given more fuel for the following turn. And the "strand the card in their hand then make them discard it" most likely requires two colors, limiting both the number of players which can do it and makes setting up the response combo harder.
If players all over have to start altering decks to deal with one specific card by including cards which are largely dead in any other situation, I think unbanning RN is a mistake.
I think the biggest issue is that it bones newer players pretty hard for the response route but aren't there other cards legal right now that do the same if not worse?
Yes I get that. There are plenty of answers to Recurring Nightmare. The point I've been bringing up and is largely being ignored/brushed aside is simply that the strong answers that currently get played are far and few between. I think it's safe to say that commonly played cards (spot removal, board wipes, counterspells) are at best minimal answers. Spot removal doesn't work when the RN player has more than one creature in play. Counterspells are limited to one color (and I'm fairly sure the RC would not be happy for a worldwide meta shift into blue permission). Wraths are good, but slow so RN is merely delayed a little, while given more fuel for the following turn. And the "strand the card in their hand then make them discard it" most likely requires two colors, limiting both the number of players which can do it and makes setting up the response combo harder.
If players all over have to start altering decks to deal with one specific card by including cards which are largely dead in any other situation, I think unbanning RN is a mistake.
He mostly listed instant speed sweepers which are hardly dead in other situations. Your point is not being brushed aside, it has the appropriate amount of weight. What's more annoying however is people talking like one activation of Recurring Nightmare will somehow outright win the game. Remember, NOBODY wants a card like Victimize banned, and it actually gives roughly the same value as two Recurring Nightmare activations. Considering this, we need 9 mana (!!) and three separate instances where nothing goes wrong to surpass Victimize in value, which again, is a card no one considers overpowered. What exactly is there to fear? Can the people against the unbanning please try to illustrate a frightnening situation that includes RN, is plausable, and possible in an average game? I'm honestly insterested in what you can come up with.
Random card to bring up -- just because my deck with love this card -- but is Gifts Ungiven really that much worse than some other powerful cards out there?
What were some of the mosts broken things Gifts could do? And are any of those things any more busted than Tooth and Nail into an instant win combo?
It seems to me that even though Gifts is very powerful, it still falls squarely into the category of cards where playgroups can self-police themselves and choose to play with or against it on their own.
I don't really understand why Gifts Ungiven is banned but Intuition is allowed. I get both being banned... or neither - honestly, there's a case for either, and a lot of it depends on how you feel about combo - but one being banned while the other roams around seems strange. Mimeoplasm decks win on the spot with Intuition, and my Mizzix deck's easiest win is an unfair "no right choice" Intuition pile.
Gifts, frankly, gives too much too cheaply and too early in the game. This is one of the many things that makes the repeated comparison with TnN inappropriate. There's also the fact that Gifts is an instant, not a sorcery, which means one can do it at the end of someone else's turn and reap the benefits on their own turn. Gifts also makes it too easy to set up combos. TnN can also set up instant-win combos, but only at sorcery speed, only those based entirely on creatures (which makes it a lot less versatile), and only when you have a fair amount of mana available in one turn, i.e., a bit later in the game.
Combo is strong enough in the format already, thanks, without adding Gifts.
I don't really understand why Gifts Ungiven is banned but Intuition is allowed. I get both being banned... or neither - honestly, there's a case for either, and a lot of it depends on how you feel about combo - but one being banned while the other roams around seems strange. Mimeoplasm decks win on the spot with Intuition, and my Mizzix deck's easiest win is an unfair "no right choice" Intuition pile.
So, you clearly understand just how good of a card Intuition is. Gifts Ungiven is a considerably stronger version, with its primary drawback being irrelevant in this format.
As strong as Intuition is, it only wins the game like that with setup. Half the time, Gifts Ungiven is the setup.
Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus make it functionally useless just by sitting there--you've got to pause and find a way to put more dudes in the yard or let it sit like a brick in your hand.
graveyard hate is criminally underplayed in EDH. My decks always have at least a couple solid pieces.
I don't see a lot of the offered solutions as solutions vs. RN.
The problem with it is that you go "Play RN, regain priority, sac this Solemn to bring back X (Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, w/e)" then your opponent can attempt to Ooze away a target, but the RN is already back in hand.
So you need:
A)Counterspells
B)Relic of Progenitus or Crypt
C)The RN player to be bad.
C is especially important as the RN player will see stuff on the field and will blow up your Relic before starting his loop. I realize Duel Commander is a much, much different format so this comparison is largely pie in th esky, but I did test RN in my DC Karador list and boy was it silly. It essentially cycled Sundering TItan into Primeval Titan into...until opponents could no longer play Magic. In our game mode we're basically turning Terastodon into Woodfall Primus into Solemn into. RN will turn Magic into a solitaire game much in the way PoK did in the day.
Kokusho is pretty bad these days, but RN is still quite a good card.
However, I'm willing to be cool and let it come off if I can get Fastbond or Channel off as well. (Heh).
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Also the point of Recurring Nightmare is that it never targets. So answers like Scavenging Ooze and Swords to Plowshares are only as good as their ability to keep the RN player's graveyard/battlefield completely empty. Not saying it's impossible or unlikely, but this is also a consideration.
Also the point of Recurring Nightmare is that it never targets. So answers like Scavenging Ooze and Swords to Plowshares are only as good as their ability to keep the RN player's graveyard/battlefield completely empty. Not saying it's impossible or unlikely, but this is also a consideration.
RN does target. You can ooze the target.
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I know the RC doesn't pander to the whole "this card is much less broken than X, so should be allowed" but I think it's a pretty egregious example of a lame ban in my opinion.
I see no reason for RN to remain on the ban list. Yes, you'd see it a lot, but we already see a lot of reanimation shenanigans and at instant speed too. Without Griselbrand in the format, I see zero reason to be concerned with reanimation. Play grave hate and removal or scoop'em up. Life's tough princess
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And once again, there are answers to every card, some still need to be banned. The distinct lack of interaction with this card makes it really a ban directly in context of the games the RC wants to promote to me.
But it does stop RN if you time it right. Player A casts RN. Player B crypts player A's gy in response. RN sits in play like a brick.
Isn't that why Prophet of Kruphix just got banned?
I don't see how having someone flash a loaming shaman up against you while you cast RN is an example of "poor play", I'm just pointing out the fairly obvious line that TN is not all that difficult to play against.
You don't have to remove the gy targets to brick RN either. If you clear their board of creatures it works too. That's doable at instant speed for virtually every colour.
RN was first banned when the amount of gy hate was distinctly subpar. I don't think it really fits under any of the current banning criteria. I think it's fairly reasonable to lobby for an unban.
That's cool, but lots of people are going to poke holes in that because it's not a love fest for RN. It might be a 'boogeyman', but its not some brick that folds to tons of broad removal as has been insinuated here.
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The card beats newer players into a pulp. Which I believe RC frowns upon. Not as great against veterans with answers, but still great.
Consume the meek, volcanic fallout, fated retribution,dwarven catapult, fall of the titans(if they only have 2 creatures), firestorm, street spasm if they don't have any flyers and you overload, comet storm, fault line and the aforementioned flashing in loaming shaman. And there are certainly more than that.
I think the biggest issue is that it bones newer players pretty hard for the response route but aren't there other cards legal right now that do the same if not worse?
Survival of the Fittest comes to mind. The difference is that it is easier to identify RN as the threat in the situation, as opposed to SotF which gets overlooked in favor of the creatures it tutors. RN is easier for new players to complain about since it is obviously the enabler. I cannot tell you how often my Survival stays around against learning players, who instead blow up my Gilded Lotuses or Grave Pacts even when I advise them to nuke the Survival. The same thing happens with stuff like Hermit Druid (even when not used to combo), Fecundity, and basically anything that is subtly powerful. I think this phenomenon often skews the "data" used to adjudicate the banned list.
Yes I get that. There are plenty of answers to Recurring Nightmare. The point I've been bringing up and is largely being ignored/brushed aside is simply that the strong answers that currently get played are far and few between. I think it's safe to say that commonly played cards (spot removal, board wipes, counterspells) are at best minimal answers. Spot removal doesn't work when the RN player has more than one creature in play. Counterspells are limited to one color (and I'm fairly sure the RC would not be happy for a worldwide meta shift into blue permission). Wraths are good, but slow so RN is merely delayed a little, while given more fuel for the following turn. And the "strand the card in their hand then make them discard it" most likely requires two colors, limiting both the number of players which can do it and makes setting up the response combo harder.
If players all over have to start altering decks to deal with one specific card by including cards which are largely dead in any other situation, I think unbanning RN is a mistake.
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What were some of the mosts broken things Gifts could do? And are any of those things any more busted than Tooth and Nail into an instant win combo?
It seems to me that even though Gifts is very powerful, it still falls squarely into the category of cards where playgroups can self-police themselves and choose to play with or against it on their own.
Thoughts?
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I don't really understand why Gifts Ungiven is banned but Intuition is allowed. I get both being banned... or neither - honestly, there's a case for either, and a lot of it depends on how you feel about combo - but one being banned while the other roams around seems strange. Mimeoplasm decks win on the spot with Intuition, and my Mizzix deck's easiest win is an unfair "no right choice" Intuition pile.
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Combo is strong enough in the format already, thanks, without adding Gifts.
So, you clearly understand just how good of a card Intuition is.
Gifts Ungiven is a considerably stronger version, with its primary drawback being irrelevant in this format.
As strong as Intuition is, it only wins the game like that with setup. Half the time, Gifts Ungiven is the setup.
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Scavenging ooze on the battlefield makes RN useless without removing it first.
Stonecloaker shuts off RN forever tempo neutral.
Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus make it functionally useless just by sitting there--you've got to pause and find a way to put more dudes in the yard or let it sit like a brick in your hand.
graveyard hate is criminally underplayed in EDH. My decks always have at least a couple solid pieces.
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The problem with it is that you go "Play RN, regain priority, sac this Solemn to bring back X (Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, w/e)" then your opponent can attempt to Ooze away a target, but the RN is already back in hand.
So you need:
A)Counterspells
B)Relic of Progenitus or Crypt
C)The RN player to be bad.
C is especially important as the RN player will see stuff on the field and will blow up your Relic before starting his loop. I realize Duel Commander is a much, much different format so this comparison is largely pie in th esky, but I did test RN in my DC Karador list and boy was it silly. It essentially cycled Sundering TItan into Primeval Titan into...until opponents could no longer play Magic. In our game mode we're basically turning Terastodon into Woodfall Primus into Solemn into. RN will turn Magic into a solitaire game much in the way PoK did in the day.
Kokusho is pretty bad these days, but RN is still quite a good card.
However, I'm willing to be cool and let it come off if I can get Fastbond or Channel off as well. (Heh).
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RN does target. You can ooze the target.