In a way, I guess it makes sense with the new Eldrazi requiring colorless mana. Originally one could just tap a rainbow land to produce colorless mana, as long as it's outside of the general's identity, hence makes the restriction less severe.
As for Prophet... I honestly have more trouble with Deadeye Navigator than Prophet because of the repeated advantage it brings with all the enters-battlefield creatures like Mystic Snake.
It becomes much harder to sculpt your hand thanks to mulligans. We'll see if cards like sol ring and hermit druid still cause issues if you have more trouble landing them on turn 1 or 2.
The mana change makes things not only a little more cleaner, but makes certain cards (like Bring to Light) a little better.
I will not miss Prophet, even though I play a lot of UG decks.
Optimal they will never ban for a competitive setting if you want your own banlist and format go make one. I cannot for the life of me however understand why your upset this change NERFS every single one of those fast strategies you just mentioned and in no minor way. So to recap they dont make bans that cater to you and this round of changes aimed at casual players happens to HELP you and your upset? what am I missing?
One final thing is that I am so. *******. glad. that the RC does not ban based on "competitive" EDH in any way shape or form. You want a surefire way for them to destroy the format? Look no further. The fact that people actually come here and ask for Doomsday or Ad Nauseam to be banned is a freaking joke. And if you are a "competitive" player and do not realize that the death of Partial Paris is the worst thing that could ever happen to those fast combo decks that you boogeyman to us, there is no helping you. You are not playing the same kind of Magic that the rest of us are in this thread and coming in here WITH YOUR CAPITAL LETTERS to complain that the ban list does not cater to YOU is one of the more selfish things I've heard. What a joke.
I say this with a lot of experience in EDH with over a year and half of being the cities top EDH player...these are not uneducated opinions (I hate to point this out, but the tone and dismissal is rather low blow). On that note, it isn't just for comp play that I promote these ideas...I feel glass canon is notoriously hated in ALL skill levels. Many players remark EDH as degenerate legacy combos that ruin fun decks. I've tried getting more casual players into the meta, but inevitably a glass canon walks in and they ask "what could I have done to stop them?"...my only answer is telling them they must run [X] decks types and that numerous strategies simply won't work if those are floating around. That fun RW deck that got you excited into EDH? Yeah...it's going to do terrible against a lot of top tier just because of your colors and odd kit of tools to thwart those decks while still being effective in winning. I want the format to open up and not have to tell them "You either run blue or win fast" (because literally that is the entire comp EDH meta).
These two statements are both untrue.
There are very few combos in the game that are immune to removal of any kind, very very very few actually and the ones that are are also not that common because they are so specific.
I got onto this thread expecting people to be sharpening there pitchforks and burning Sheldon in effigy, but most people seem relatively okay with the changes. I don't think this has ever happened before.
I got onto this thread expecting people to be sharpening there pitchforks and burning Sheldon in effigy, but most people seem relatively okay with the changes. I don't think this has ever happened before.
Prophet really sucks man. I'm all for a minimal banlist. I think a lot of the recent bans have been frankly laughable, and if I were solely in charge the banlist would be about 2/3 its current size. I've been desperate for a Prophet ban for a while. I'd rather someone had a Bargain in play than a Prophet in 99% of circumstances.
As the announcement says, it's just too much the perfect EDH card. Doesn't matter what kind of playgroup you have, it ruins games.
As a comp player, new blood is important. It's hard to bring in new people on a casual level when these decks float around. My whole deck came to be because I got really mad about these decks and built a deck specifically to counter them to survive, but many players feel that EDH is a bad format once they see it and it divides the community too much. No one enjoys losing to a deck they can't respond to, you feel like you have no control and your entire deck is useless, which is the worst feeling for many players. They might now want to make a $2k deck, but they wanna feel like their budget brew can interact and do something. Non-interactive decks are the bane of casual play.
No, "There's nothing I can do to that" is the bane of casual play. A good player doesn't look at what he can't do, he looks at what he can do. Counterspell isn't as powerful as Mana Drain, but it gets the job done is what it does. That's one of the biggest frustrations I have with EDH's competitive scene; you have people who don't want to get better, people who want to get better and think they can only win with the biggest, most expensive and best cards, and then you have 85% of the Competitive players basically saying that those who don't play SUPER-AMAZING-COMBO-STAX are terrible and don't deserve to play.
Casuals must be guided to the land of milk and honey, not discouraged. It's the only way.
Rule 4: Doesn't effect me, so I don't care about it
Mulligan: Eh. Kind of a pain, but what have you. In my old group this would have been a blow, but my new group doesn't really do anything with PP anyway.
PoK: Stupid, annoying ban; the card died to a stiff breeze, and as long as you weren't trying to play 4 games of Solitaire at one table it wasn't that much of a problem. Still, it is what it is; UG lost a really good card and the rest of us no longer have to worry about it.
Eh, C'est la vie.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
I say this with a lot of experience in EDH with over a year and half of being the cities top EDH player...these are not uneducated opinions (I hate to point this out, but the tone and dismissal is rather low blow). On that note, it isn't just for comp play that I promote these ideas...I feel glass canon is notoriously hated in ALL skill levels. Many players remark EDH as degenerate legacy combos that ruin fun decks. I've tried getting more casual players into the meta, but inevitably a glass canon walks in and they ask "what could I have done to stop them?"...my only answer is telling them they must run [X] decks types and that numerous strategies simply won't work if those are floating around. That fun RW deck that got you excited into EDH? Yeah...it's going to do terrible against a lot of top tier just because of your colors and odd kit of tools to thwart those decks while still being effective in winning. I want the format to open up and not have to tell them "You either run blue or win fast" (because literally that is the entire comp EDH meta).
I'm hesitant to ban certain cards, I really love casual narset decks. I would rather find other things to hinder it (some of the mana rocks maybe, but not all). But cards that notoriously are "this wins if it resolves because my deck does [combo chain]"...don't lead to fun and fair decks. I feel Hermit druid is a tough one, because that is a functional card, I'd rather attack the insta win cards it combos into, but maybe banning 1 card is better than banning those.
As a comp player, new blood is important. It's hard to bring in new people on a casual level when these decks float around. My whole deck came to be because I got really mad about these decks and built a deck specifically to counter them to survive, but many players feel that EDH is a bad format once they see it and it divides the community too much. No one enjoys losing to a deck they can't respond to, you feel like you have no control and your entire deck is useless, which is the worst feeling for many players.
It's not just you that I'm talking about and it has nothing to do with you being good at magic or your decks being top level for competitive play. Those experiences that casual players are having by coming into your meta are not things that would be typical for EDH. The RC doesn't ban things that are the most powerful in the format, just things that break casual games and neither of those cards would do that. Banning Doomsday or AN is not saving them from anything because those same players are going to play some other cutthroat list that will ruin the fun for the casual players and the answer will always be, "Run X, Y, and Z or you will lose like this every time." It isn't even a casual vs. competitive debate. Since they are a casual player, even a competitively balanced ban list would leave them behind because the difference in power would still be too great. Since your only rationale so far has been the negative experiences casual players have when facing those cards played in a cutthroat meta, I'm inclined to side that there is no reason to ban either of them since
You can build control Narset, or superfriends Narset, or voltron, or whatever you want to do without her being cutthroat. She might be oppressive, or potentially give a lot of value, but it isn't an "I win if I resolve this card and attack" unless you design her to be that way. I run superfriends Narset, but I tossed in a bunch of extra turns and combats because I wanted a deck that felt fun and interesting to me (I don't get to run a ton of Planeswalkers, so this was my chance), but can also be ruthless. I have 3 other lists so it isn't like I would run her out there every game, but winning a FFA or a 5-player star match every once in a while is nice so having a higher powered deck to occasionally do that is something I wanted to do. I also have a sideboard put together so that I can take out all the extra turns and combats and play her as superfriends control in a much more "fair" manner. If the RC had determined her ability was what was broken and irreconcilable for the format and not what players were casting off of it, she would be banned. However, since the deck also has to be built to "combo off" with Narset, and they consider her to be "fair" otherwise, she is legal. The other concern is that she is one of 5 total generals in her colors and is probably the -most- playable of those. Banning her and her unique ability reduces variety in a limited color-combination. If she were two colors instead of 3, I think she might be more bannable.
Also, just because your deck doesn't combo off doesn't make it less oppressive to face for casual players. If you can already control a dedicated combo player running the fastest deck in the format, you can easily deal with anything durdly that they try to do. That RW deck that got them excited to play EDH might not do anything from just facing your deck, regardless of the other combo-based lists. This is where the social contract comes into play; if you aren't running equitable power levels, it doesn't matter what is banned because the lower power player is always going to get stomped and probably not have any fun. Groups need to be similarly powered and that is where balance comes from, not what you are looking for from the ban list.
It's funny I would still argue that it is a card not worthy of banning, but I also don't think it is that good of a card and it doesn't fit into 5/6s of the decks I play, so whatever ban the crutch card that people can't seem to deal with, whateva :thereisnoshrugemoji
The only thing Prophet is good for is it is amazing Training Wheels, it teaches people more about what is possible and what to expect and theoretically you should then be prepared to deal with all types of cards when the turn is not yours.
Also Prophet is probably the most low impact card on that list next to Braids, Cabal Minion (Roff doesn't count because he costs 2 mana) (also probably shouldn't be banned)
How I wish for BaaC to come back... I feel like I didn't need PoK to be successful, so it isn't as huge of a deal for me, although I'm sure many people relied on her as their main path to victory.
I'd rather someone had a Bargain in play than a Prophet in 99% of circumstances.
Doesn't matter what kind of playgroup you have, it ruins games.
First, let's not be sensationalist here. Bargain is broken. Far more broken than Prophet would ever be. The only reason you can make that claim is because you've probably never played with the card to see how stupid it is. I get why they banned her, but come on.
It does matter what kind of playgroup you have. More casual or durdly settings were clearly not doing well against the card and even more tuned lists were having problems with it, it seems. However, my group never really had issues with the card. It was "kill on sight" and did run away with a few games here or there, but was largely contained. We recognized it was good and powerful, but to say that it ruined ANY kind of playgroup is baseless and hyperbole. However, it DID ruin enough of the RC's target players' games that they found it worthy of a ban and it is as simple as that. Making sweeping statements doesn't help anyone's arguments.
Bargain type effects can no longer live in the times of Oloro they need to have huge drawbacks that require other pieces to really shine like Necropotence (which is still sometimes pushing it)
On the new Mulligan Rules - I like it. This was basically what my playgroup was doing anyway and I like that there is the same mulligan rule for both sanctioned Magic and Commander.
On the abolishment of Rule 4 - I also like it. This means I can pull out my Zedruu the Greathearted deck in an unknown meta and get a lot less flack about my commander (even though I've never had Celestial Dawn in that deck ever). This seems like a positive move.
On the banning of Prophet of Kruphix - As I've recently stated, PoK was surely part of the problem of the power of UG decks, if not the problem. The standard response to people calling for a PoK ban was always "just remove him", but those decks often several ways to nullify removal or shrug off removal by landing another must-kill threat. It didn't help that Consecrated Sphinx, Deadeye Navigator, and a bunch of high-powered commanders were all in the same deck. This will be an interesting change because UG decks in general are overrepresented in my playgroup (and I suspect in EDH as a whole), so knocking them down a peg (however small a peg this turns out to be) should shake things up a bit. I don't see this impacting the environment at the level of Primeval Titan's banning, but its sure to shake things up in most metas.
Personally, I will definitely miss having PoK in my Damia, Sage of Stone deck where being able to untap with a full grip was strong. I will also miss it severely in my Riku of Two Reflections deck that is both mana hungry and relies on protecting the commander. Vorel of the Hull Clade and Angus Mackenzie cared a lot less about PoK, but it was still awesome synergy and a great option to have. I will definitely be replacing PoK with Seedborn Muse in all of those decks.
One final thing is that I am so. *******. glad. that the RC does not ban based on "competitive" EDH in any way shape or form. You want a surefire way for them to destroy the format? Look no further. The fact that people actually come here and ask for Doomsday or Ad Nauseam to be banned is a freaking joke. And if you are a "competitive" player and do not realize that the death of Partial Paris is the worst thing that could ever happen to those fast combo decks that you boogeyman to us, there is no helping you. You are not playing the same kind of Magic that the rest of us are in this thread and coming in here WITH YOUR CAPITAL LETTERS to complain that the ban list does not cater to YOU is one of the more selfish things I've heard. What a joke.
I say this with a lot of experience in EDH with over a year and half of being the cities top EDH player...these are not uneducated opinions (I hate to point this out, but the tone and dismissal is rather low blow). On that note, it isn't just for comp play that I promote these ideas...I feel glass canon is notoriously hated in ALL skill levels. Many players remark EDH as degenerate legacy combos that ruin fun decks. I've tried getting more casual players into the meta, but inevitably a glass canon walks in and they ask "what could I have done to stop them?"...my only answer is telling them they must run [X] decks types and that numerous strategies simply won't work if those are floating around. That fun RW deck that got you excited into EDH? Yeah...it's going to do terrible against a lot of top tier just because of your colors and odd kit of tools to thwart those decks while still being effective in winning. I want the format to open up and not have to tell them "You either run blue or win fast" (because literally that is the entire comp EDH meta).
These two statements are both untrue.
There are very few combos in the game that are immune to removal of any kind, very very very few actually and the ones that are are also not that common because they are so specific.
The combos in question often aren't permanents or are permanents that require niche or super fast removal. Many decks lack enough redundant effects to stop these before it's too late. These decks can go off turn 2-4 constantly, you may not even have enough time to tutor to improve you odds of drawing the cards. Narset for example is very hard for most decks to stop by turn 3 because of hexproof and the fact it may resolve with haste. Blue is one of the few colors that can interact with all zones, most importantly things on the stack, and not over stretch the decklist to specifically beat that deck. Counters are answers to a lot of things at all points in a game, giving blue a unique advantage of survivability, as well as insurance for when they wanna go off.
There are many deck types that simply do not have consistent wins in a hyper comp meta. Over a year of testing with 50+ players with optimized decks, we see that blue is hands down the dominant color and the main paths to victory are glass canon combo and blue/x combo/stax control. Aggro, voltron, control, etc... have always been second tier at best. It's to the point that my deck mains a Llawan and then several 2cc hatebears to turn off combo, because even though they're niche...they are relevant against the things i'm actually concerned about losing to. It is very rare that those do not win a 3-4 round tournament.
This is based off several stores, meta, and etc with strong prize support to encourage top level play. Our meta actually caused wizards to stop prize supporting the EDH in GP side events. I'm willing to hear your side and argue me, but you're are being dismissive in a tone that implies you think I don't know what I'm talking about. Please provide supporting details to your disagreement. Show me a deck or something that paints a different picture.
Winning % aside, I still target those types of decks as bad for the game. They are simply unfun and push the game to be about luck more than rewarding smart decisions as the deck is in autopilot mode to go off a certain way or it loses. They could have a 20% success rate in 1v1 and I'd still feel they were not healthy because of the nature in how they play. Games should be about interactions. Bad for casual, bad for comp.
First, let's not be sensationalist here. Bargain is broken. Far more broken than Prophet would ever be. The only reason you can make that claim is because you've probably never played with the card to see how stupid it is. I get why they banned her, but come on.
I'm not being sensationalist, at least not intentionally. I really do mean that. Bargain is infinitely more broken in 1v1 or in a deck designed to break it, certainly. But in the vast majority of multiplayer EDH decks, mana is already much more of a limitation than cards. Getting enough mana to use all the cards Bargain gives you and win the game is hard (and generally requires tailoring your deck pretty specifically to it). Getting enough cards to spam out with Prophet and win the game is easy as hell and requires nothing special.
It does matter what kind of playgroup you have. More casual or durdly settings were clearly not doing well against the card and even more tuned lists were having problems with it, it seems. However, my group never really had issues with the card. It was "kill on sight" and did run away with a few games here or there, but was largely contained. We recognized it was good and powerful, but to say that it ruined ANY kind of playgroup is baseless and hyperbole. However, it DID ruin enough of the RC's target players' games that they found it worthy of a ban and it is as simple as that. Making sweeping statements doesn't help anyone's arguments.
Again, I feel like I do have legitimate justification for this statement. I get around and I've played in a lot of different types of group. Obviously durdlefest groups were having trouble with the card, but I really do think it was just as much of a problem in the megaspike groups. Yes, it is KoS status there and those groups tend to have the tools to actually accomplish this through a wall of counterspells, but the existence of a single Prophet in any of the decks at the table turns the game into a battle of who can tutor for it, steal it, reanimate it and keep hold of it, and whoever wins that battle wins the game. It's the same argument that was used to justify Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial getting banned, I know, and in those cases I had a hearty chuckle at the reasoning. In this case though, I feel like it's actually fair, because Prophet has so much more of an impact than those cards. You do just win the game if you can keep hold of a Prophet and your deck is good. Therefore, suddenly the best play in any given circumstance becomes "how do I get myself a Prophet?" The Mystical Tutor that usually gets you a counterspell or combo piece is now finding Bribery. Your reanimation deck is ignoring its own graveyard because Prophet is better than anything it has. And so on.
I would mind it a lot less if it weren't a creature, actually. Then it would be a lot harder for other players to interact with (other than with removal), and games wouldn't devolve so much into a game of grab-the-Prophet.
The combos in question often aren't permanents or are permanents that require niche or super fast removal. Many decks lack enough redundant effects to stop these before it's too late. These decks can go off turn 2-4 constantly, you may not even have enough time to tutor to improve you odds of drawing the cards. Narset for example is very hard for most decks to stop by turn 3 because of hexproof and the fact it may resolve with haste. Blue is one of the few colors that can interact with all zones, most importantly things on the stack, and not over stretch the decklist to specifically beat that deck. Counters are answers to a lot of things at all points in a game, giving blue a unique advantage of survivability, as well as insurance for when they wanna go off.
There are many deck types that simply do not have consistent wins in a hyper comp meta. Over a year of testing with 50+ players with optimized decks, we see that blue is hands down the dominant color and the main paths to victory are glass canon combo and blue/x combo/stax control. Aggro, voltron, control, etc... have always been second tier at best. It's to the point that my deck mains a Llawan and then several 2cc hatebears to turn off combo, because even though they're niche...they are relevant against the things i'm actually concerned about losing to. It is very rare that those do not win a 3-4 round tournament.
This is based off several stores, meta, and etc with strong prize support to encourage top level play. Our meta actually caused wizards to stop prize supporting the EDH in GP side events. I'm willing to hear your side and argue me, but you're are being dismissive in a tone that implies you think I don't know what I'm talking about. Please provide supporting details to your disagreement. Show me a deck or something that paints a different picture.
Winning % aside, I still target those types of decks as bad for the game. They are simply unfun and push the game to be about luck more than rewarding smart decisions as the deck is in autopilot mode to go off a certain way or it loses. They could have a 20% success rate in 1v1 and I'd still feel they were not healthy because of the nature in how they play. Games should be about interactions. Bad for casual, bad for comp.
You're playing singleton Vintage, I don't know what you expect the RC to do when you're playing it as competitively as possible. They don't care.
And that bolded portion is not something I'd be proud of, if I were you. EDH side events at GPs were something that I found very appealing. At the recent GP Oakland (I live in the East Bay) there were no formal EDH events, which I think is a major disappointment for fans of the format. Why would you look at Wizards taking something away from this format because of your actions and not introspectively look at yourself and see that you might be the problem and not the ban list?
It's like the PE teacher letting you finally play flag football in grade school despite contact/injury concerns associated with the sport, but you're the kid who plays in the tackle league and decide to lay out the opposing quarterback because you're so cool and competitive. Then they don't let anyone play flag football any more because one person ruined it for the rest of the class. If you are causing WotC to change their prize support for EDH at GP events, that is what you are doing, and it is in no way a good thing.
1. Has the Hand to cast Narset lets say on Turn 2 or 3 (which is now harder due to the lack of partial paris)
2. None of the pieces put down from Turn 1 to 3 have not already been disrupted by other players
3. Resolves (This is the one spot that is largely only relevant if you are playing blue)
4. Has haste?
5. Swings
6. Doesn't Wiff
7. Hits things that a) Give Extra Combat b) Give Extra Turn
8. At this point I would say the person is in a pretty good spot.
I have played friends Narset decks that turned sideways once and chained into extra turn -> extra combat step -> etc etc etc
However I have also played and seen that deck hit 3 lands and a Signet as many times. As many people have pointed out to you the changes just made do a number on slowing down exactly the Narset deck you are describing. Why you are ignoring these comments is beyond me.
I really am indifferent on PoK ban however I would love to see some unbanning of cards soon as I feel several of the cards on the ban list would be alright now a days.
Aka I love Sundering Titan and Would love to be able to play him once again.
As a comp player, new blood is important. It's hard to bring in new people on a casual level when these decks float around. My whole deck came to be because I got really mad about these decks and built a deck specifically to counter them to survive, but many players feel that EDH is a bad format once they see it and it divides the community too much. No one enjoys losing to a deck they can't respond to, you feel like you have no control and your entire deck is useless, which is the worst feeling for many players. They might now want to make a $2k deck, but they wanna feel like their budget brew can interact and do something. Non-interactive decks are the bane of casual play.
Get up and walk away from those people if you don't like that play style. Take some personal responsibility outside 'I made a deck to stop them'. People who want to play casually can, if they have the guts to stand up from tables that do crap like glass cannon all the time. Be the player that starts to show others thats OK.
The concept of color identity stems directly from a deck's general. This is the theme of this format, and one of the few things that separates us from highlander. Tampering with this makes the concept of EDH feel less flavorful.
It just doesn't feel right for Sen Triplets to play an opponents mountain and be able to cast a lightning bolt in a format designed around limiting deck construction to some legendary card's colors.
I tend to agree with you, but I don't see a good out with the way Rule 4 interacts with colorless mana generation. Every idea that was tossed around had huge holes, and it really boiled down to this being the best proposal I saw. I loved the flavor of Rule 4, but it was time.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I really am indifferent on PoK ban however I would love to see some unbanning of cards soon as I feel several of the cards on the ban list would be alright now a days.
Aka I love Sundering Titan and Would love to be able to play him once again.
Sundering Titan is one of those typical cards that look like a hoot for casual players, and then proceeds to utterly wreck games. It's probably never coming off again, I fear. There are other cards that are more likely to return, though not many.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I really am indifferent on PoK ban however I would love to see some unbanning of cards soon as I feel several of the cards on the ban list would be alright now a days.
Aka I love Sundering Titan and Would love to be able to play him once again.
Sundering Titan is one of those typical cards that look like a hoot for casual players, and then proceeds to utterly wreck games. It's probably never coming off again, I fear. There are other cards that are more likely to return, though not many.
Oh Im not trying to love it for causal use. I just want to blink /reanimate it to my hearts desire and enjoy the tears of others that happen from it. I know its horribly broken much like [c]Sylvan primordial but is one I honestly would love to play with as yes its broken but is juts a lot of fun.
I'm fine with Prophet and mull changes, but removing rule 4 completely has me a little irked.
The concept of color identity stems directly from a deck's general. This is the theme of this format, and one of the few things that separates us from highlander. Tampering with this makes the concept of EDH feel less flavorful.
It just doesn't feel right for Sen Triplets to play an opponents mountain and be able to cast a lightning bolt in a format designed around limiting deck construction to some legendary card's colors.
But that is exactly what Sen Triplets are meant to do. Their flavor text hints at being able to mind control you. Why wouldn't they be able to use that to steal your territory and mana as well? It's also worth noting that we are the planeswalker that is tapping into the mana; our commander is just our top underling.
I say with reasonable certainty that the specific wording on Daxos of Meletis is a concession to EDH. Did you have a problem with him being able to cast non W/U cards even with rule 4?
I support the removal of rule 4. In a game where theft of cards is part of 2 colors' slice of the pie, I felt that it was a redundant restriction.
As for Prophet... I honestly have more trouble with Deadeye Navigator than Prophet because of the repeated advantage it brings with all the enters-battlefield creatures like Mystic Snake.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
It becomes much harder to sculpt your hand thanks to mulligans. We'll see if cards like sol ring and hermit druid still cause issues if you have more trouble landing them on turn 1 or 2.
The mana change makes things not only a little more cleaner, but makes certain cards (like Bring to Light) a little better.
I will not miss Prophet, even though I play a lot of UG decks.
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
These two statements are both untrue.
There are very few combos in the game that are immune to removal of any kind, very very very few actually and the ones that are are also not that common because they are so specific.
Prophet really sucks man. I'm all for a minimal banlist. I think a lot of the recent bans have been frankly laughable, and if I were solely in charge the banlist would be about 2/3 its current size. I've been desperate for a Prophet ban for a while. I'd rather someone had a Bargain in play than a Prophet in 99% of circumstances.
As the announcement says, it's just too much the perfect EDH card. Doesn't matter what kind of playgroup you have, it ruins games.
No, "There's nothing I can do to that" is the bane of casual play. A good player doesn't look at what he can't do, he looks at what he can do. Counterspell isn't as powerful as Mana Drain, but it gets the job done is what it does. That's one of the biggest frustrations I have with EDH's competitive scene; you have people who don't want to get better, people who want to get better and think they can only win with the biggest, most expensive and best cards, and then you have 85% of the Competitive players basically saying that those who don't play SUPER-AMAZING-COMBO-STAX are terrible and don't deserve to play.
Casuals must be guided to the land of milk and honey, not discouraged. It's the only way.
Rule 4: Doesn't effect me, so I don't care about it
Mulligan: Eh. Kind of a pain, but what have you. In my old group this would have been a blow, but my new group doesn't really do anything with PP anyway.
PoK: Stupid, annoying ban; the card died to a stiff breeze, and as long as you weren't trying to play 4 games of Solitaire at one table it wasn't that much of a problem. Still, it is what it is; UG lost a really good card and the rest of us no longer have to worry about it.
Eh, C'est la vie.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
It's not just you that I'm talking about and it has nothing to do with you being good at magic or your decks being top level for competitive play. Those experiences that casual players are having by coming into your meta are not things that would be typical for EDH. The RC doesn't ban things that are the most powerful in the format, just things that break casual games and neither of those cards would do that. Banning Doomsday or AN is not saving them from anything because those same players are going to play some other cutthroat list that will ruin the fun for the casual players and the answer will always be, "Run X, Y, and Z or you will lose like this every time." It isn't even a casual vs. competitive debate. Since they are a casual player, even a competitively balanced ban list would leave them behind because the difference in power would still be too great. Since your only rationale so far has been the negative experiences casual players have when facing those cards played in a cutthroat meta, I'm inclined to side that there is no reason to ban either of them since
You can build control Narset, or superfriends Narset, or voltron, or whatever you want to do without her being cutthroat. She might be oppressive, or potentially give a lot of value, but it isn't an "I win if I resolve this card and attack" unless you design her to be that way. I run superfriends Narset, but I tossed in a bunch of extra turns and combats because I wanted a deck that felt fun and interesting to me (I don't get to run a ton of Planeswalkers, so this was my chance), but can also be ruthless. I have 3 other lists so it isn't like I would run her out there every game, but winning a FFA or a 5-player star match every once in a while is nice so having a higher powered deck to occasionally do that is something I wanted to do. I also have a sideboard put together so that I can take out all the extra turns and combats and play her as superfriends control in a much more "fair" manner. If the RC had determined her ability was what was broken and irreconcilable for the format and not what players were casting off of it, she would be banned. However, since the deck also has to be built to "combo off" with Narset, and they consider her to be "fair" otherwise, she is legal. The other concern is that she is one of 5 total generals in her colors and is probably the -most- playable of those. Banning her and her unique ability reduces variety in a limited color-combination. If she were two colors instead of 3, I think she might be more bannable.
Also, just because your deck doesn't combo off doesn't make it less oppressive to face for casual players. If you can already control a dedicated combo player running the fastest deck in the format, you can easily deal with anything durdly that they try to do. That RW deck that got them excited to play EDH might not do anything from just facing your deck, regardless of the other combo-based lists. This is where the social contract comes into play; if you aren't running equitable power levels, it doesn't matter what is banned because the lower power player is always going to get stomped and probably not have any fun. Groups need to be similarly powered and that is where balance comes from, not what you are looking for from the ban list.
How I wish for BaaC to come back... I feel like I didn't need PoK to be successful, so it isn't as huge of a deal for me, although I'm sure many people relied on her as their main path to victory.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
First, let's not be sensationalist here. Bargain is broken. Far more broken than Prophet would ever be. The only reason you can make that claim is because you've probably never played with the card to see how stupid it is. I get why they banned her, but come on.
It does matter what kind of playgroup you have. More casual or durdly settings were clearly not doing well against the card and even more tuned lists were having problems with it, it seems. However, my group never really had issues with the card. It was "kill on sight" and did run away with a few games here or there, but was largely contained. We recognized it was good and powerful, but to say that it ruined ANY kind of playgroup is baseless and hyperbole. However, it DID ruin enough of the RC's target players' games that they found it worthy of a ban and it is as simple as that. Making sweeping statements doesn't help anyone's arguments.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
On the abolishment of Rule 4 - I also like it. This means I can pull out my Zedruu the Greathearted deck in an unknown meta and get a lot less flack about my commander (even though I've never had Celestial Dawn in that deck ever). This seems like a positive move.
On the banning of Prophet of Kruphix - As I've recently stated, PoK was surely part of the problem of the power of UG decks, if not the problem. The standard response to people calling for a PoK ban was always "just remove him", but those decks often several ways to nullify removal or shrug off removal by landing another must-kill threat. It didn't help that Consecrated Sphinx, Deadeye Navigator, and a bunch of high-powered commanders were all in the same deck. This will be an interesting change because UG decks in general are overrepresented in my playgroup (and I suspect in EDH as a whole), so knocking them down a peg (however small a peg this turns out to be) should shake things up a bit. I don't see this impacting the environment at the level of Primeval Titan's banning, but its sure to shake things up in most metas.
Personally, I will definitely miss having PoK in my Damia, Sage of Stone deck where being able to untap with a full grip was strong. I will also miss it severely in my Riku of Two Reflections deck that is both mana hungry and relies on protecting the commander. Vorel of the Hull Clade and Angus Mackenzie cared a lot less about PoK, but it was still awesome synergy and a great option to have. I will definitely be replacing PoK with Seedborn Muse in all of those decks.
There are many deck types that simply do not have consistent wins in a hyper comp meta. Over a year of testing with 50+ players with optimized decks, we see that blue is hands down the dominant color and the main paths to victory are glass canon combo and blue/x combo/stax control. Aggro, voltron, control, etc... have always been second tier at best. It's to the point that my deck mains a Llawan and then several 2cc hatebears to turn off combo, because even though they're niche...they are relevant against the things i'm actually concerned about losing to. It is very rare that those do not win a 3-4 round tournament.
This is based off several stores, meta, and etc with strong prize support to encourage top level play. Our meta actually caused wizards to stop prize supporting the EDH in GP side events. I'm willing to hear your side and argue me, but you're are being dismissive in a tone that implies you think I don't know what I'm talking about. Please provide supporting details to your disagreement. Show me a deck or something that paints a different picture.
Winning % aside, I still target those types of decks as bad for the game. They are simply unfun and push the game to be about luck more than rewarding smart decisions as the deck is in autopilot mode to go off a certain way or it loses. They could have a 20% success rate in 1v1 and I'd still feel they were not healthy because of the nature in how they play. Games should be about interactions. Bad for casual, bad for comp.
Again, I feel like I do have legitimate justification for this statement. I get around and I've played in a lot of different types of group. Obviously durdlefest groups were having trouble with the card, but I really do think it was just as much of a problem in the megaspike groups. Yes, it is KoS status there and those groups tend to have the tools to actually accomplish this through a wall of counterspells, but the existence of a single Prophet in any of the decks at the table turns the game into a battle of who can tutor for it, steal it, reanimate it and keep hold of it, and whoever wins that battle wins the game. It's the same argument that was used to justify Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial getting banned, I know, and in those cases I had a hearty chuckle at the reasoning. In this case though, I feel like it's actually fair, because Prophet has so much more of an impact than those cards. You do just win the game if you can keep hold of a Prophet and your deck is good. Therefore, suddenly the best play in any given circumstance becomes "how do I get myself a Prophet?" The Mystical Tutor that usually gets you a counterspell or combo piece is now finding Bribery. Your reanimation deck is ignoring its own graveyard because Prophet is better than anything it has. And so on.
I would mind it a lot less if it weren't a creature, actually. Then it would be a lot harder for other players to interact with (other than with removal), and games wouldn't devolve so much into a game of grab-the-Prophet.
You're playing singleton Vintage, I don't know what you expect the RC to do when you're playing it as competitively as possible. They don't care.
And that bolded portion is not something I'd be proud of, if I were you. EDH side events at GPs were something that I found very appealing. At the recent GP Oakland (I live in the East Bay) there were no formal EDH events, which I think is a major disappointment for fans of the format. Why would you look at Wizards taking something away from this format because of your actions and not introspectively look at yourself and see that you might be the problem and not the ban list?
It's like the PE teacher letting you finally play flag football in grade school despite contact/injury concerns associated with the sport, but you're the kid who plays in the tackle league and decide to lay out the opposing quarterback because you're so cool and competitive. Then they don't let anyone play flag football any more because one person ruined it for the rest of the class. If you are causing WotC to change their prize support for EDH at GP events, that is what you are doing, and it is in no way a good thing.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
1. Has the Hand to cast Narset lets say on Turn 2 or 3 (which is now harder due to the lack of partial paris)
2. None of the pieces put down from Turn 1 to 3 have not already been disrupted by other players
3. Resolves (This is the one spot that is largely only relevant if you are playing blue)
4. Has haste?
5. Swings
6. Doesn't Wiff
7. Hits things that a) Give Extra Combat b) Give Extra Turn
8. At this point I would say the person is in a pretty good spot.
I have played friends Narset decks that turned sideways once and chained into extra turn -> extra combat step -> etc etc etc
However I have also played and seen that deck hit 3 lands and a Signet as many times. As many people have pointed out to you the changes just made do a number on slowing down exactly the Narset deck you are describing. Why you are ignoring these comments is beyond me.
Aka I love Sundering Titan and Would love to be able to play him once again.
I tend to agree with you, but I don't see a good out with the way Rule 4 interacts with colorless mana generation. Every idea that was tossed around had huge holes, and it really boiled down to this being the best proposal I saw. I loved the flavor of Rule 4, but it was time.
Sundering Titan is one of those typical cards that look like a hoot for casual players, and then proceeds to utterly wreck games. It's probably never coming off again, I fear. There are other cards that are more likely to return, though not many.
Oh Im not trying to love it for causal use. I just want to blink /reanimate it to my hearts desire and enjoy the tears of others that happen from it. I know its horribly broken much like [c]Sylvan primordial but is one I honestly would love to play with as yes its broken but is juts a lot of fun.
But that is exactly what Sen Triplets are meant to do. Their flavor text hints at being able to mind control you. Why wouldn't they be able to use that to steal your territory and mana as well? It's also worth noting that we are the planeswalker that is tapping into the mana; our commander is just our top underling.
I say with reasonable certainty that the specific wording on Daxos of Meletis is a concession to EDH. Did you have a problem with him being able to cast non W/U cards even with rule 4?
I support the removal of rule 4. In a game where theft of cards is part of 2 colors' slice of the pie, I felt that it was a redundant restriction.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord UB
R Godo, Bandit Warlord R
Biorhythm, Protean Hulk, Library of Alexandria, Painter's Servant, Recurring Nightmare, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, and Sundering Titan could all be legal in my eyes if people learn to adapt to their playgroup and honestly run an appropriate amount of removal. Also talking about how you feel about cards solves a bit so long as you do it politely.
Edit: I forgot about Braids, Cabal Minion...