I looked at the dicussion the gather page for Kokusho and it doesn't seem that fun to play aginst with comments like:
"The reason this guy is banned in EDH is because of combos like Rite of Replication."
and
"Step 1: Get Kokusho
Step 2: Play Kokusho in multiplayer
Step 3: Find new friends
Step 4: Repeat steps 2 through 4"
"card is so amazing in multilayer games. just do everything you can to bring it from your grave and back into as much as possible and you win"
and so on and so forth about how awesomely broken the card is,unless I'm sure your not gonna go full on show how awesomely broken the card is mode,I'm jsut gonna pack up when it hits the table.
There are others like Hulk for Karmic Guide + Carrion Feeder/Viscera Seer getting back Hulk. Sac Hulk getting Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and anther 1CMC creature. And you can now go off making infinite Hasty pro-black 2/2 fliers by activating Kiki-jiki targeting Karmic Guide and Saccing it in response. Copy trigger resolves and you get a Karmic Guide which gets back Kiki-Jiki. Rinse and repeat. The reason why Hulk is so problematic is that it is a creature and not an sorcery (Tooth & Nail) or enchantment (Defense of Heart) and therefore can be really abusive since its easy to cheat him out and recur him over and over so even if you are just going for value, he gets you a lot of value for very little cost.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
There are others like Hulk for Karmic Guide + Carrion Feeder/Viscera Seer getting back Hulk. Sac Hulk getting Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and anther 1CMC creature. And you can now go off making infinite Hasty pro-black 2/2 fliers by activating Kiki-jiki targeting Karmic Guide and Saccing it in response. Copy trigger resolves and you get a Karmic Guide which gets back Kiki-Jiki. Rinse and repeat. The reason why Hulk is so problematic is that it is a creature and not an sorcery (Tooth & Nail) or enchantment (Defense of Heart) and therefore can be really abusive since its easy to cheat him out and recur him over and over so even if you are just going for value, he gets you a lot of value for very little cost.
I think I just have a screwed perspective on the format because my meta is very, very competitive. Don't get me wrong, I love it and we do have our fun decks, but when I think of abusive cards, I think Hermit Druid or Ad Nauseum. Things that kill waaaay faster than Protean Hulk. I mean, Hulk is slow, easy to exile, folds to Leyline of the Void, as well as susceptible to countermagic, and it almost always requires a 5 colour commander to combo with. It's just not as broken as other cards that the RC has chosen to allow, and its fundamentally a really cool card. Exactly the type of thing commander is about.
The RC thinks that Primeval can be dealt with internally, within a playgroup. They feel the same way about most combo decks. Why can't they letus have our fun with Hulk? With Painter's Servant? With Kokusho? Those are all cards with legitimate, fun uses. Let us have fun with them.
I think I just have a screwed perspective on the format because my meta is very, very competitive. Don't get me wrong, I love it and we do have our fun decks, but when I think of abusive cards, I think Hermit Druid or Ad Nauseum. Things that kill waaaay faster than Protean Hulk. I mean, Hulk is slow, easy to exile, folds to Leyline of the Void, as well as susceptible to countermagic, and it almost always requires a 5 colour commander to combo with.
Hermit Druid is also easy to kill, folds to Leyline of the Void and is susceptible to countermagic and it almost always requires a 5 color commander to combo with, what's your point? I don't think that Hulk is stronger than Hermit druid but it certainly is extremely powerful and doesn't really require you to dedicate you deck as hard to the combo as Hermit Druid does. I honestly think that Hermit Druid should get the axe, it doesn't do anything interesting, its almost exclusively a combo card and its the fastest deck by far.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
and so on and so forth about how awesomely broken the card is,unless I'm sure your not gonna go full on show how awesomely broken the card is mode,I'm jsut gonna pack up when it hits the table.
If you did a bit more searching you would also find the thread where Consecrated Sphinx and Primeval Titan were consistently discussed as being more broken. Kokusho was obnoxious when recurring nightmare was legal; now that it is banned he is significantly more difficult to abuse than so many other legal options that the argument of banning him is hypocritical if you're not equally willing to argue in favor of banning several dozen other more broken cards.
I think, like raffy, he should be made legal as a non general. Assuming the poll on the first couple pages is representitive over 80% of people agree.
EDH in its nature is a game wherein the first unanswered bomb will win the game. EDH isn't so much a game of threats and answers as it is one of bombs and answers. So I don't know whether you're arguing that prime titan should be banned because its the standard that other bombs are compared to and you think that's wrong and other bombs needs to shine, or whether you just have a problem with the nature of the format. Either way, EDH isn't a sprint; in a developed meta, it's a marathon where you fight the singleton status of the format with as much redundancy, tutors, and recursion as you can fit in your colors. This is why aggro, apart from some very creative lists, is practically non-existent; it can't hope to outlast the midrange-control decks that dominate this 40 life format.
If you are arguing that having prime time as the the standard of the format is wrong, which I think you are, I disagree somewhat; I don't think he always generates the insurmountable advantage you're talking about enough to warrant a ban. But what he does do is hit a sweet spot within the format, giving you an unique repeated effect which no other bomb has on a body that is just big enough to be considered a threat. Prime time, for better or worse, truly is the poster-child of this format; it is the most efficient bomb which accelerates a player's ability to play more bombs, and with nearly guaranteed value, which matters immensely in answer-heavy multiplayer games. PT is played in every g/x deck because it fits everything about the nature of the format exactly, if problematically, nothing more or less.
Where PT becomes problematic is in metas that aren't prepared to deal with powerful non-basics or the recursion that so often accompany bombs like PT. One might argue that the most damaging thing PT does is force EDH players to sacrifice their vision of a casual format; when you start packing answers to particular strategies, the game immediately starts to feel more like other formats. You have to cut down on the fun bombs for more business answers.
In this way, the card is really a catalyst for many groups to become competitive; commander really started getting popular around the time prime time came out, which was only slightly before the commander products themselves were released. It was and is still in standard, so players see it in both standard, a highly competitive format, and EDH, a supposedly casual one. It also doesn't help that it is perhaps the single most translatable card between the two formats. I don't think it's any coincidence that PT has had an enormous amount of controversy surrounding; it bridges the gap between a competitive format and a casual format with a kind of visibility that no other card has.
That's the real paradox behind primeval titan (and cards like it) in EDH; it exemplifies the goal of the format as one of bomby plays while discrediting its supposed casual nature. I think that's why Sheldon Menery is experimenting with suspending PT...he's a smart guy. He can probably see that PT is damaging his vision of the format as casual, but in a way that is, ironically, reinforcing what this format is all about. It's hard to attack that kind of problem.
The RC seems to have found a temporary solution to the "primeval titan" problem in encouraging players to be active in having house bans on cards that they view as problematic to their individual vision of the format. In other words, ban prime time if he is causing problems among friends. But herein lies an even bigger problem; if many different metas have their own individual banlists, doesn't this damage the bigger picture of a format united behind the same basic rules? Does it really make sense to seemingly encourage players to fracture along rudimentary rules lines?
The RC seems to have learned from the mistakes of five color in reigning in a large banlist and people definitely have fun playing powerful cards like sol ring and demonic tutor in commander. So maybe that is the real answer; addressing the issue at a local level while not engaging it at a higher level so that problems are inherently much more manageable. In doing so, that hands-off attitude posters on this forum give the RC crap for may be wiser than they know.
Regardless, something I do think the RC needs to restate is the nature of the format as one which encourages interactivity over everything else. This really solves the PT problem in the best way. It sacrifices some of the rosy notions of EDH being solely a casual format, but it preserves its bomby nature. Primeval Titan doesnt need banned; people need to change their mindset and face EDH for the semi-casual, interactive format it is instead of the hypercasual, bombs-only format it isn't.
Nice rant and I agree with most of it, but I think your missing my point.
What I'm saying is Primevil Titan breaks the fundamental progression of resources in the format to the point that if you're not in the arms race to acquire one for some period of time throughout the game, you will fall behind and more then likely lose and/or not have fun. Being a "standard for bombs" doesn't start to describe that type of centralization. Saying that Primevil Titan is a catalyst for groups to become competitive is exactly true, but that's not my point..
Primeval Titan doesnt need banned; people need to change their mindset and face EDH for the semi-casual, interactive format it is instead of the hypercasual, bombs-only format it isn't
Casual or Competitive, it doesn't matter - this isn't about that. It's about over-centralization, changing the focus completely on acquiring one creature until you gain the most benefit from it and win, bypassing a good portion of the game.
Is Kokusho in the same ball park ? No. Kokusho doesn't provide resources except for life
You're confusing power with fun. Just because primetime is more powerful doesn't mean he's less fun.
Kokusho changes the dynamics of how you look at life totals...for example imagine a typical game approaching turn 10 or so, and a kokusho hits play. How much life do the players typically have? 20s and 30s? Well, consider that a single rite of replication now eliminates everyone else under 30 life. Are you safe sitting at 32? Bob there sure doesn't feel safe at 24. But oh look he's got it covered, phantasmal image copying koko puts him up to a comfortable 34. But oh, since 2 kokos have died now you're down to 22! And a bit later in the game, when someone resolves animate dead on koko, you've got to be really worried. Maybe that rite of replication never resolves. Maybe no one's even drawn one. But the threat of losing 30 life suddenly, means you're kind of forced to seek a safer life total. And incidentally, that koko in play is probably the easiest way to gain a bunch of life...but doing so hurts everyone else, and if someone else is in the same boat and beats you to it, you're in even worse shape.
It's not that koko's effect is more powerful than primeval titan - it isn't. And koko isn't. It's just that koko games are less fun than primetime games. People copy/steal/recur primetime because they want to - he provides a powerful effect. People treat koko the same way not because they want to, but because they kind of have to. Koko is both the disease and the cure. You want a safe life total to survive a koko-explosion, and then contribute to the koko explosion to achieve that.
My god... Someone ended the game on turn 10?... That would be terrible... /sarcasm
Compare that to the common turn ~8 uncounterable lethal exsaguinate, or horde of trampling tokens, or infinite combo, or...
Not to mention a single removal spell would stop that rite resulting in a measly loss of 5 life (unless it was a remove-from-game/tuck spell like many removal spells now are for a variety of reasons).
I don't think your example holds any weight seeing as so many other options are more abusable and more reliable.
Nice rant and I agree with most of it, but I think your missing my point.
1. What I'm saying is Primevil Titan breaks the fundamental progression of resources in the format to the point that if you're not in the arms race to acquire one for some period of time throughout the game, you will fall behind and more then likely lose and/or not have fun. Being a "standard for bombs" doesn't start to describe that type of centralization. Saying that Primevil Titan is a catalyst for groups to become competitive is exactly true, but that's not my point..
2. Casual or Competitive, it doesn't matter - this isn't about that. It's about over-centralization, changing the focus completely on acquiring one creature until you gain the most benefit from it and win, bypassing a good portion of the game.
1. I think in the post I kinda quoted you said ur meta was having talks over banning PT. I could be totally wrong and definitely lazy though so Im not sure, but that was basically the reason for the rant. The wall of text was more for me writing my thoughts down than anything else.
I guess the confusion comes in when you say you didn't advocate a ban, yet you're technically complaining about the role commander's banner card plays in commander, i.e., jockeying for control of the PT. So, I guess you're just saying you don't like the feel of PT? If you aren't saying PT should be banned one way or the other in the "official banlist discussion thread" then I guess all I can say is I'm sorry you feel that way. -shrug-
2. In my experiences with PT, he isn't that bad. He's certainly very powerful, and I copy him every chance i get, but honestly, in a meta like mine, he does not usually get to attack, and after he is dead someone usually hates him to exile. I could just be fortunate to have a meta that has a ton of gy hate and torpor orb/sudden spoiling effects (or unfortunate, since I play Sedris :p). As my rant stated, he is really only very problematic if there is a lack of gy hate and instant speed removal in your meta. Even then, there is non-basic land hate too, which is 90% of what PT searches for. He's certainly been powerful in my meta, but luckily everyone runs a lot of answers, so he has not been out of control.
One card I REALLY hate is the join forces land tutor card. Now THAT card completely ruins games.
3. PT isnt a card you build around, its a staple. PT is really just the same concept as sol ring; sure you wish you didnt have to play with it, but it doesnt matter, it's 2 mana for 1 mana and that means its too good to pass up. I don't think ive ever heard someone say they have a primeval titan deck; I've just seen a lot of PTs. Perhaps im very lucky, but in my meta, problem lands are very rarely left alone, they die to strip mines/tec edges, LD spells, etc. I find that the same players who think PT is too much also dont think that red has much of a role in the format, even though red is the king of dealing with those expensive problem lands.
Ultimately, I admit I do like playing with sol ring and PT. I dont like the deckspace they take up sometimes, but I like the efficiency and speed they give to my decks. So when I say that PT is the culprit for spurning the casual banner this format has, that really is the root of it; instead of fun stuff, you play "good stuff."
BTW, don't think that we're completely discounting Griselbrand at the moment. All we've said is that it's not worth emergency/pre-banning. It could turn out to be strong but mostly unoffensive, or it could turn out to be one of the worst things ever. If the former, no worries--some decks got a good card. If the latter, there's always June.
First off, please have a seat, we have much to talk about. Is the RC currently looking at kokusho? This isn't even a balance issue, it's a credibility issue. All but one of my playgroups follow the banlist, but all of my playgroups don't like it because it doesn't "make sense."
I showed a new player kokusho and then showed him the banlist. You know what he did? He showed me mikeaus and the spoiler for griselbrand and then said "lol wut are they smoking." By continuing to keep kokusho on the banlist you are leaving the impression of not knowing or caring about what happens to the format you helped create. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure a large portion of the mtgsalvation base would bake you cookies.
In fact, I personally pledge to send 24 red velvet Georgetown cupcakes to your store if kokopuff is unbanned. Is that a bribe? Absolutely.
So if the very act of having griselbrand makes you a target, does that make him the worst thing ever or just good? Back during the emrakul days, I had a blue white control deck that was designed to stop/control emrakul and similar powered bombs through effects like stifle, meddling mage, and other similar effects. Once emrakul was banned... I didn't tweek the deck at all and shelved it. I recently just updated it and I'm finding that normally problem creatures and spells are no longer a problem. I can tell you that if I see a griselbrand player I will probably drop a pithing needle or declaration of naught naming griselbrand. Does that make him too strong? The way I see it, completely banning him from the format rewards players who don't want to actively deal with a threat that has a big effect. To top it off, GB is no where near emrakul in terms of stoppability. What is the RC's criteria for worst thing ever or just being really good?
Is the RC currently looking at kokusho? This isn't even a balance issue, it's a credibility issue.
GB is no where near emrakul...
Both points are worth repeating. I could see grounds for a GB ban or not. It really will depend on how he influences less competitive circles; he's breakable for sure, but other broken options are available already. So in those circles will he have the Emrakul affect and drastically warp less competitive meta games around him? or will he just be a big bomb like any other 8cc creature worth casting? The RC is handling GB in a reasonable manner; unlike Kokusho...
I simply wish to state that I DO NOT, IN ANY WAY, AGREE with the poster above me and all people who share his view on Kokusho.
Just wanted to state that first, in order to show that what they are saying is NOT true. I'm talking about their statements regarding everyone wanting Kokusho off the Ban list.
It must be said:
The fact that currently there are problematic creatures running rampant in the meta (G.Titan, GB and Druid of the top of my head) does not, in any way, mean that even more must be made legal, by unbanning Kokusho. I know some people have tested him and speak from experience, as do I, but I'm quite sure the majority just "go with the flow" without any form of knowledge and testing of the strength of the card.
I do agree that some creatures that are legal at the moment are equally game warping and pretty boring, because you see them all the time, they are the number one target for an early tutor and they are the reason why some decks work to begin with (I'm looking at you P.Titan, wont even mention Druid). But Kokusho is in the same pot as they are, he's equally game warping and, unlike P.Titan, who rocket propels the caster into the late game, Kokusho actually wins the game. I wont even start a debate on the number of ways in which he can be abused, that's pointless. I'm simply going to say that he ends the game, that's in a whole new league from fueling broken plays early, he simply ends the game, by himself.
I have played against the card a lot, my PG wanted to see if he really was busted and as it turned out he was, extremely so. I'm also in a highly cutthroat meta and he still was resolving the games around him.
No question here, newer cards are as bad if not worse then him, but that doesn't mean we have to unban him, it just means that those new offenders have to be stopped.
I've read all the long posts about why he shouldn't be on the ban list, problem with those posts are that they simply state the fact that more broken things exist, in my mind they should be looked at and removed from the game, but not at the cost of releasing some of the old offenders.
Except kokusho is not even good without recurring nightmare (which must stay banned). What you are advocating is growing the banlist and keeping kokusho on there, which will kill the format (remember prismatic). In fact, What you said makes no sense, you're saying since something was broken in the past, it should stay banned because it was broken regardless of power creep. He was an old offender, but his impact WOULD be minimal, there are just better, stronger, more degenerate bombs that are harder to deal with and warp the game. Kokusho doesn't warp the game around himself as much as ptime or sphinx.
Players want a smaller banlist that MAKES SENSE. Balance was never an issue, it just has to make sense. Keeping koko on there when you have 10+ degenerate warping bombs is laughable at best. You know what makes this format great? You can play all the degenerate stuff you want and do crazy broken vintage stuff and if your group doesn't like it, you can make a house rule banning it or controlling how its used. If you want the RC to legislate what's broken and what's not your banlist will not only be miles long, but no one will follow it anyway and pick another one. You'll have a balanced banlist that no one will use, congrats!
However, you missed by chance or on purpose the main point I made about Kokusho. Just to make this clear, I'll sum it up:
Kokusho can be a direct cause for winning a game, by simply playing him. The cards you mentioned help only to fuel an eventual game winning situation, they offer extreme amounts of advantage, but cannot directly win the game.
It's not a matter of Kokusho vs pTitan but that to abuse Kokusho you are jumping through more hoops than many of the win options already available now... Honestly a bit of removal, disruption, or grave-hate will bone Kokusho.
pithing needle will be useful in any game but will stop a Kokusho deck dead.(late night thought lapse, best to disregard) If he's their general then black will have a hellish time removing him. If he is not their general (BTW I would be quite happy if he was made like rofellos; legal as a non-general) then exile him or hit him with grave hate; He's not the general so he can't just recast him.
The fact that he is both counterable (counterspells, removal, gravehate, discard etc...) and made to look like a joke amongst big mana and exsanguinate means there is no legitimate argument for his continued ban without a massive banning; which most players do not favor.
Pithing Needle does exactly squat against Kokusho.
Which is why I shouldn't post at 4 AM... Point being thereareplentyofanswersavailable if he's their general. If he's not a general then any instant speed exile card (be it from play, the graveyard, their hand, or their library) will work. What you don't seem to address is that Kokusho is more difficult to abuse than many other win now options including numerous 2 card combo's and big mana plays.
However, you missed by chance or on purpose the main point I made about Kokusho. Just to make this clear, I'll sum it up:
Kokusho can be a direct cause for winning a game, by simply playing him. The cards you mentioned help only to fuel an eventual game winning situation, they offer extreme amounts of advantage, but cannot directly win the game.
That's a huge difference right there.
No... Sorry, but you are completely wrong in this case. There is no difference. Kokusho doesn't time walk, or have GB draw ability. He doesn't have sphinx's draw ability, he doesn't ramp you to victory, he's not an indestructable infectious behemouth, he doesn't blow up the board. He doesn't do anything with out an enabler. Sharrum, Mike, ghave, the mimeoplasm, and GB flat out win the game when cast, and GB needs to be built around to completely abuse that sheer advantage. Any general can be a direct cause of winning the game... To top it off, the amount of resources you need to adequately abuse kokusho (especially as a general) is massive, you're better off figuring out how to recur exanguinate, it's much easier.
Pithing Needle does exactly squat against Kokusho.
You are absolutely correct. You have a firm understanding of the rules and how abilities work. How this is relevant to the debate of kokusho.... I have no idea. Pithing needle does stop crazy interactions like ghave, azami, and it does stop triskellion from killing the table. Other than that, it's worth running because you can shut down problem cards.
You have failed to justify why kokusho should remained banned, the only reasoning you have presented is illogical fear.
In other news, grave digger's cage... I like it now
You're confusing power with fun. Just because primetime is more powerful doesn't mean he's less fun.
Kokusho changes the dynamics of how you look at life totals...for example imagine a typical game approaching turn 10 or so, and a kokusho hits play. How much life do the players typically have? 20s and 30s? Well, consider that a single rite of replication now eliminates everyone else under 30 life. Are you safe sitting at 32? Bob there sure doesn't feel safe at 24. But oh look he's got it covered, phantasmal image copying koko puts him up to a comfortable 34. But oh, since 2 kokos have died now you're down to 22! And a bit later in the game, when someone resolves animate dead on koko, you've got to be really worried. Maybe that rite of replication never resolves. Maybe no one's even drawn one. But the threat of losing 30 life suddenly, means you're kind of forced to seek a safer life total. And incidentally, that koko in play is probably the easiest way to gain a bunch of life...but doing so hurts everyone else, and if someone else is in the same boat and beats you to it, you're in even worse shape.
It's not that koko's effect is more powerful than primeval titan - it isn't. And koko isn't. It's just that koko games are less fun than primetime games. People copy/steal/recur primetime because they want to - he provides a powerful effect. People treat koko the same way not because they want to, but because they kind of have to. Koko is both the disease and the cure. You want a safe life total to survive a koko-explosion, and then contribute to the koko explosion to achieve that.
I think this is a very well thought out reasoning as to the impact Koko makes to the mentality of players on the board. It makes everyone nervous, which isn't good for a fun game.
1. I think in the post I kinda quoted you said ur meta was having talks over banning PT. I could be totally wrong and definitely lazy though so Im not sure, but that was basically the reason for the rant. The wall of text was more for me writing my thoughts down than anything else.
I guess the confusion comes in when you say you didn't advocate a ban, yet you're technically complaining about the role commander's banner card plays in commander, i.e., jockeying for control of the PT. So, I guess you're just saying you don't like the feel of PT? If you aren't saying PT should be banned one way or the other in the "official banlist discussion thread" then I guess all I can say is I'm sorry you feel that way. -shrug-
2. In my experiences with PT, he isn't that bad. He's certainly very powerful, and I copy him every chance i get, but honestly, in a meta like mine, he does not usually get to attack, and after he is dead someone usually hates him to exile. I could just be fortunate to have a meta that has a ton of gy hate and torpor orb/sudden spoiling effects (or unfortunate, since I play Sedris :p). As my rant stated, he is really only very problematic if there is a lack of gy hate and instant speed removal in your meta. Even then, there is non-basic land hate too, which is 90% of what PT searches for. He's certainly been powerful in my meta, but luckily everyone runs a lot of answers, so he has not been out of control.
One card I REALLY hate is the join forces land tutor card. Now THAT card completely ruins games.
3. PT isnt a card you build around, its a staple. PT is really just the same concept as sol ring; sure you wish you didnt have to play with it, but it doesnt matter, it's 2 mana for 1 mana and that means its too good to pass up. I don't think ive ever heard someone say they have a primeval titan deck; I've just seen a lot of PTs. Perhaps im very lucky, but in my meta, problem lands are very rarely left alone, they die to strip mines/tec edges, LD spells, etc. I find that the same players who think PT is too much also dont think that red has much of a role in the format, even though red is the king of dealing with those expensive problem lands.
Ultimately, I admit I do like playing with sol ring and PT. I dont like the deckspace they take up sometimes, but I like the efficiency and speed they give to my decks. So when I say that PT is the culprit for spurning the casual banner this format has, that really is the root of it; instead of fun stuff, you play "good stuff."
I don't think we really disagree when it comes down to it. We just view it in different extremes.
One card I REALLY hate is the join forces land tutor card. Now THAT card completely ruins games.
This is essentially the same thing as the Primevil theory except you don't have to fight over a creature and waste resources and time doing it.
I like playing Primevil Titan and Sol Ring and all the busted cards too, but there comes a point where I realized, there's no other card like Primevil Titan. I can't just replace him if he gets banned, I have to look to other alternatives, which could be for better or worse.. which kind leads me to a off topic question from the forum:
Lots of people cite the death of the Prismatic(SP?) format was due to over banning. Is there a history I can read about this ? anything about ban choices and time lines etc.. ? I'm having a hard time understanding the comparison. When you have access to all 5 colors is that format, I would assume there's a natural balance, but in this format you're restricted to the colors of your commander, leading to over/under powered colors/deck, which might be balanced through bans. (Just a thought, since I don't know the history the format, I could be totally off base) If you have a link let me know.
EDIT:
The rest however, while extremely strong, do not do what Kokusho does. You only need to play the card to get the effect, after that you don't really care for it much. If it dies, great, you win around 15-20life and burn your opponents, after that you can recur him when you please, with what ever you please. My point is, you don't need anything else to make him work. All other cards require something to happen, or their current position to be altered in some way. They interact with other cards, while Kokusho is just 1 card that warps the game around itself. Nothing too bad about that, many cards do this atm (P. Titan), however he is a direct way to simply win the game. Not grant resources that later might enable a win, he just wins.
I'm pretty sure it's been shown time and time again, that the required hoops you have to go through to have Kokusho win the game are unrealistic at this point in the formats life. He has to go to the graveyard 8 times to kill someone/everyone.
You only need to play the card to get the effect
Except if he eats a Path, Swords, Ashes to Ashes etc.... where as Primevil Titan has already done the damage once he comes into play, getting any two lands you want (hello Coffers+Urborg.. whoops I just won the game) Kokusho can't even see this type of first class play while sitting in coach.
EDIT2:
People copy/steal/recur primetime because they want to - he provides a powerful effect. People treat koko the same way not because they want to, but because they kind of have to
Primevil Titan has the same affect. If you don't follow the same steps of stealing,recurring, copying etc.. you will most likely lose or watch as your table blows out and you sit there not having any fun. Fundamentally, the psychological effect these cards have is the same (IMO)
The rest however, while extremely strong, do not do what Kokusho does. You only need to play the card to get the effect, after that you don't really care for it much. If it dies, great, you win around 15-20life and burn your opponents, after that you can recur him when you please, with what ever you please. My point is, you don't need anything else to make him work. All other cards require something to happen, or their current position to be altered in some way. They interact with other cards, while Kokusho is just 1 card that warps the game around itself. Nothing too bad about that, many cards do this atm (P. Titan), however he is a direct way to simply win the game. Not grant resources that later might enable a win, he just wins.
Funny... I didn't know that kokusho had built in sacrifice ability.
You need other cards to work with Kokusho just like any other card.
Good that you manage to comprehend and read what I posted managing and excellent reply. Now go back, read what the other person before me posted and you might understand why I even brought Pithing Needle into this.
Like I have stated before in this thread, I'm the last person who will ever argue about the travesty to the game Grisleback is. There's no questions there.
The rest however, while extremely strong, do not do what Kokusho does. You only need to play the card to get the effect, after that you don't really care for it much. If it dies, great, you win around 15-20life and burn your opponents, after that you can recur him when you please, with what ever you please. My point is, you don't need anything else to make him work. All other cards require something to happen, or their current position to be altered in some way. They interact with other cards, while Kokusho is just 1 card that warps the game around itself. Nothing too bad about that, many cards do this atm (P. Titan), however he is a direct way to simply win the game. Not grant resources that later might enable a win, he just wins.
You're right, they don't do what he does, they just do it better. Once again, you have failed to prove that kokusho auto wins. You need a recursion or a sac effect to make kokusho work to gain 15-20 life. That's only 5 damage per player.... and you're spending 6+ mana and two cards to do this..... lawl. That's a joke play. That's only 5 mana per player, congrats, you will lose that buffer and then some because the whole table just decided to kill you. If you manage to recure it 4+ times then you have a way over 20 mana in which case you deserve to win for getting there (btw with 20 mana exaguinate does 18 to each player kokusho only does 15 and i'm not factoring the cost of the recur effects).
I'm having trouble taking you seriously at this point because your posts seem trollish at best. Kokusho doesn't warp the game around himself without help from other cards just like any other bomb you mentioned. The only bomb that really does this atm is consecrated sphinx (sticking within the realm of silly 6 drops). Wait no, I lied, the blue spinx requires that your opponents must still be alive to be truly abuseable and it gives you enourmous card advantage. Kokusho just makes you gain 15-20 life and makes you discard a card for 6+ mana and may win the game over a few turns around turn 10 or later. Now let's compare that to sharuum or the mimeoplasm... yeah... they kinda auto win when they enter the battlefield... immediately.
And if you didn't get it "the point" you attempted to defies logic and therefore cannot be taken seriously.
I understand that he gains a lot of life, but life doesn't win you the game. I recently lost a 1 vs 1 game while at 92 life because I had no way to kill my opponent's shrouded general; he was at 6 life, and I had no creature position beyond a 2/2.
I understand why everyone wants a piece of the Koko-nut cream pie (The life gain is still a very nice buffer to have when you want to play riskier), but he's not going to win the game, and there are other creatures that people fight over that are far worse.
No one seems to ask themselves a very simple question. Why was he banned to begin with? The card is banned for a reason, you simply lack the actual, practical experience with it in order to understand why.
Problem with the power creep creatures at the moment is that they are pretty much all piled into the three most ridiculous colors in this format. Green/Blue/Black. We can argue all day which is stronger then which, but every single 1 day old EDH player will agree that those 3 colors dominate the meta. In my mind, that's the real issue behind these problematic and extremely powerful cards.
It's not because of individual power cards; Goblin Welder is one of the best creatures in the format, and he's Red. It's more that Green, Black, and Blue just already have the best card advantage mechanics for this format.
Banning the power creatures in those three colors won't stop them from having amazing card draw, amazing ramp, amazing tutors, or counterspells.
However, you missed by chance or on purpose the main point I made about Kokusho. Just to make this clear, I'll sum it up:
Kokusho can be a direct cause for winning a game, by simply playing him. The cards you mentioned help only to fuel an eventual game winning situation, they offer extreme amounts of advantage, but cannot directly win the game.
That's a huge difference right there.
How is that a huge difference? In a resource-driven game like Magic, it shouldn't be a huge difference if you generate an enormous slippery-slope effect that puts you so far ahead.
In other resource-driven games like chess and Starcraft, the game is usually decided well before the game technically ends. You may have technically lost a game of chess because you were checkmated on move 60, but the real reason you lost was because you hung a bishop on move 20. You may technically lose in Starcraft because your base was destroyed, but the real reason you lose in Starcraft is when you fall behind in units + resources, forcing you to try to catch up and risking falling further and further behind. That's why you see so many concessions in chess and Starcraft.
Same thing goes for Magic. A game might have ended because someone Exsanguinated for lethal, but the real reason they won was because they played Primeval Titan, got Urborg/Coffers, and untapped with it on their next turn because the table failed to find an immediate answer. You can't just look at something that physically ended the game and single that out as being the reason why you lost. When the gameplay is directly tied to how many resources you have on hand, that's where you look to see who's "ahead". That's the big reason why life totals "don't always matter". Since life is an intangible resource that does not affect your ability to play the game, its one of those things that you can happily afford to lose with little consequence (see: painlands, shocklands, etc.).
Any card that generates tangible resources, and can generated said resources repetitively like Prime Titan/Sphinx/Griselbrand has the ability to create a slippery slope effect. These cards allow a person to create the ability to get ahead and immediately be in a position to get even more ahead by continuing to accumulate resources. It doesn't take long for the advantage to balloon out of control if nothing is immediately done to stop that player. So even though cards like Titan/Sphinx/Grisel/etc. don't actually physically win the game on their own, they put you in a position so advantageous that it really doesn't matter what you do to win the game at that point.
No one seems to ask themselves a very simple question. Why was he banned to begin with? The card is banned for a reason, you simply lack the actual, practical experience with it in order to understand why.
I'm aware of "the reason", but it doesn't hold any substance today because the logic of banning Kokusho was made over 4 years ago when the format was still in its infancy.
- No one played graveyard hate, and there wasn't the effective graveyard hate we have today.
- There were few other jacked up creatures back then.
- Probably most importantly, Recurring Nightmare was banned at the same time Kokusho was. Without a broken enabler fueling the card, Kokusho was never given a chance to see what he could have done without Recurring Nightmare. Time and time again, the history of Magic has shown that enablers are the problem, and not the finishers.
Currently Kokusho remains on the ban list because of inertia, which is a pretty bad reason to keep him on there.
Cool approach, trying to make me look like a troll in order for people to not view my opinion objectively.
There's not more to be stated on my behalf when it comes to Kokusho. Sadly, newer know-it-all players wish to tinker with things they don't really understand. No one is asking you to follow the ban list, ask your group for permission to play your precious Kokusho, play over 50 games with it and then state ridiculous things like you've done thus far.
No one seems to ask themselves a very simple question. Why was he banned to begin with? The card is banned for a reason, you simply lack the actual, practical experience with it in order to understand why.
Problem with the power creep creatures at the moment is that they are pretty much all piled into the three most ridiculous colors in this format. Green/Blue/Black. We can argue all day which is stronger then which, but every single 1 day old EDH player will agree that those 3 colors dominate the meta. In my mind, that's the real issue behind these problematic and extremely powerful cards.
I don't have to make people not view your opinions seriously or objectively. You state things that don't exist, do not back up your claims with data or facts, and your best argument is "he was banned for a reason, so he should stay banned" wake up, the environment has changed and the powercreep has creeped way above kokopuff.
I've been playing mtg before recurring nightmare and kokusho were printed. I have played with kokusho in my playgroup with the expressed purpose to abuse it in a recursion engine, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. The most broken thing i ever did with him as was sac and recur him 8 times in one turn with that lich from dark ascension... it cost above 50 mana to pull that off and I had to play time stretch to set it up...... this was around turn 20...
Why it was banned is irrelevant to the discussion today. All the factors that went into his banning are no longer present or matter. I'm sorry if that bothers you but that's the truth, if the RC wanted to keep the power level constant over the last 2 years the banlist would be huge. The power of this game has changed and surpassed kokopuff deal with it. "it was banned for a reason let's keep it banned" is silly and that's why I consider you a troll cause no reasonable person would use this as an argument. I have the experience play testing it... it's great when it works, but the resources to make it work are massive and compounds when you attempt to recur it.
What's the relevance of your last point? That the three colors that generate the most card advantage are the best? No one cares and it's irrelevant to the discussion of the banlist because the banlist is not to police and keep all the colors equal. It's to keep degenerate FORMAT warping cards out of the general inter play group arena. You have not proved kokusho will warp the FORMAT i'm sorry if that bothers you but your arguments have little to no substance or analysis behind them.
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I looked at the dicussion the gather page for Kokusho and it doesn't seem that fun to play aginst with comments like:
"The reason this guy is banned in EDH is because of combos like Rite of Replication."
and
"Step 1: Get Kokusho
Step 2: Play Kokusho in multiplayer
Step 3: Find new friends
Step 4: Repeat steps 2 through 4"
"card is so amazing in multilayer games. just do everything you can to bring it from your grave and back into as much as possible and you win"
and so on and so forth about how awesomely broken the card is,unless I'm sure your not gonna go full on show how awesomely broken the card is mode,I'm jsut gonna pack up when it hits the table.
There are others like Hulk for Karmic Guide + Carrion Feeder/Viscera Seer getting back Hulk. Sac Hulk getting Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and anther 1CMC creature. And you can now go off making infinite Hasty pro-black 2/2 fliers by activating Kiki-jiki targeting Karmic Guide and Saccing it in response. Copy trigger resolves and you get a Karmic Guide which gets back Kiki-Jiki. Rinse and repeat. The reason why Hulk is so problematic is that it is a creature and not an sorcery (Tooth & Nail) or enchantment (Defense of Heart) and therefore can be really abusive since its easy to cheat him out and recur him over and over so even if you are just going for value, he gets you a lot of value for very little cost.
I think I just have a screwed perspective on the format because my meta is very, very competitive. Don't get me wrong, I love it and we do have our fun decks, but when I think of abusive cards, I think Hermit Druid or Ad Nauseum. Things that kill waaaay faster than Protean Hulk. I mean, Hulk is slow, easy to exile, folds to Leyline of the Void, as well as susceptible to countermagic, and it almost always requires a 5 colour commander to combo with. It's just not as broken as other cards that the RC has chosen to allow, and its fundamentally a really cool card. Exactly the type of thing commander is about.
The RC thinks that Primeval can be dealt with internally, within a playgroup. They feel the same way about most combo decks. Why can't they letus have our fun with Hulk? With Painter's Servant? With Kokusho? Those are all cards with legitimate, fun uses. Let us have fun with them.
Hermit Druid is also easy to kill, folds to Leyline of the Void and is susceptible to countermagic and it almost always requires a 5 color commander to combo with, what's your point? I don't think that Hulk is stronger than Hermit druid but it certainly is extremely powerful and doesn't really require you to dedicate you deck as hard to the combo as Hermit Druid does. I honestly think that Hermit Druid should get the axe, it doesn't do anything interesting, its almost exclusively a combo card and its the fastest deck by far.
If you did a bit more searching you would also find the thread where Consecrated Sphinx and Primeval Titan were consistently discussed as being more broken. Kokusho was obnoxious when recurring nightmare was legal; now that it is banned he is significantly more difficult to abuse than so many other legal options that the argument of banning him is hypocritical if you're not equally willing to argue in favor of banning several dozen other more broken cards.
I think, like raffy, he should be made legal as a non general. Assuming the poll on the first couple pages is representitive over 80% of people agree.
Nice rant and I agree with most of it, but I think your missing my point.
What I'm saying is Primevil Titan breaks the fundamental progression of resources in the format to the point that if you're not in the arms race to acquire one for some period of time throughout the game, you will fall behind and more then likely lose and/or not have fun. Being a "standard for bombs" doesn't start to describe that type of centralization. Saying that Primevil Titan is a catalyst for groups to become competitive is exactly true, but that's not my point..
Casual or Competitive, it doesn't matter - this isn't about that. It's about over-centralization, changing the focus completely on acquiring one creature until you gain the most benefit from it and win, bypassing a good portion of the game.
I'm not advocating a ban (was I ?) but, if I didn't have to spend a portion of the game using Body Double,Control Magic,Clone,Animate Dead,Green Sun Zenith, Karmic Guide, Threaten, Vedalken Shackles, Survival of the Fittest, Birthing Pod, Worldly Tutor etc.. to be a part of the mix, then I think I'd have a lot more fun playing out my creations.
Kokusho changes the dynamics of how you look at life totals...for example imagine a typical game approaching turn 10 or so, and a kokusho hits play. How much life do the players typically have? 20s and 30s? Well, consider that a single rite of replication now eliminates everyone else under 30 life. Are you safe sitting at 32? Bob there sure doesn't feel safe at 24. But oh look he's got it covered, phantasmal image copying koko puts him up to a comfortable 34. But oh, since 2 kokos have died now you're down to 22! And a bit later in the game, when someone resolves animate dead on koko, you've got to be really worried. Maybe that rite of replication never resolves. Maybe no one's even drawn one. But the threat of losing 30 life suddenly, means you're kind of forced to seek a safer life total. And incidentally, that koko in play is probably the easiest way to gain a bunch of life...but doing so hurts everyone else, and if someone else is in the same boat and beats you to it, you're in even worse shape.
It's not that koko's effect is more powerful than primeval titan - it isn't. And koko isn't. It's just that koko games are less fun than primetime games. People copy/steal/recur primetime because they want to - he provides a powerful effect. People treat koko the same way not because they want to, but because they kind of have to. Koko is both the disease and the cure. You want a safe life total to survive a koko-explosion, and then contribute to the koko explosion to achieve that.
Compare that to the common turn ~8 uncounterable lethal exsaguinate, or horde of trampling tokens, or infinite combo, or...
Not to mention a single removal spell would stop that rite resulting in a measly loss of 5 life (unless it was a remove-from-game/tuck spell like many removal spells now are for a variety of reasons).
I don't think your example holds any weight seeing as so many other options are more abusable and more reliable.
1. I think in the post I kinda quoted you said ur meta was having talks over banning PT. I could be totally wrong and definitely lazy though so Im not sure, but that was basically the reason for the rant. The wall of text was more for me writing my thoughts down than anything else.
I guess the confusion comes in when you say you didn't advocate a ban, yet you're technically complaining about the role commander's banner card plays in commander, i.e., jockeying for control of the PT. So, I guess you're just saying you don't like the feel of PT? If you aren't saying PT should be banned one way or the other in the "official banlist discussion thread" then I guess all I can say is I'm sorry you feel that way. -shrug-
2. In my experiences with PT, he isn't that bad. He's certainly very powerful, and I copy him every chance i get, but honestly, in a meta like mine, he does not usually get to attack, and after he is dead someone usually hates him to exile. I could just be fortunate to have a meta that has a ton of gy hate and torpor orb/sudden spoiling effects (or unfortunate, since I play Sedris :p). As my rant stated, he is really only very problematic if there is a lack of gy hate and instant speed removal in your meta. Even then, there is non-basic land hate too, which is 90% of what PT searches for. He's certainly been powerful in my meta, but luckily everyone runs a lot of answers, so he has not been out of control.
One card I REALLY hate is the join forces land tutor card. Now THAT card completely ruins games.
3. PT isnt a card you build around, its a staple. PT is really just the same concept as sol ring; sure you wish you didnt have to play with it, but it doesnt matter, it's 2 mana for 1 mana and that means its too good to pass up. I don't think ive ever heard someone say they have a primeval titan deck; I've just seen a lot of PTs. Perhaps im very lucky, but in my meta, problem lands are very rarely left alone, they die to strip mines/tec edges, LD spells, etc. I find that the same players who think PT is too much also dont think that red has much of a role in the format, even though red is the king of dealing with those expensive problem lands.
Ultimately, I admit I do like playing with sol ring and PT. I dont like the deckspace they take up sometimes, but I like the efficiency and speed they give to my decks. So when I say that PT is the culprit for spurning the casual banner this format has, that really is the root of it; instead of fun stuff, you play "good stuff."
Isperia, Supreme Judge: Control
Malfegor: Control
First off, please have a seat, we have much to talk about. Is the RC currently looking at kokusho? This isn't even a balance issue, it's a credibility issue. All but one of my playgroups follow the banlist, but all of my playgroups don't like it because it doesn't "make sense."
I showed a new player kokusho and then showed him the banlist. You know what he did? He showed me mikeaus and the spoiler for griselbrand and then said "lol wut are they smoking." By continuing to keep kokusho on the banlist you are leaving the impression of not knowing or caring about what happens to the format you helped create. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure a large portion of the mtgsalvation base would bake you cookies.
In fact, I personally pledge to send 24 red velvet Georgetown cupcakes to your store if kokopuff is unbanned. Is that a bribe? Absolutely.
So if the very act of having griselbrand makes you a target, does that make him the worst thing ever or just good? Back during the emrakul days, I had a blue white control deck that was designed to stop/control emrakul and similar powered bombs through effects like stifle, meddling mage, and other similar effects. Once emrakul was banned... I didn't tweek the deck at all and shelved it. I recently just updated it and I'm finding that normally problem creatures and spells are no longer a problem. I can tell you that if I see a griselbrand player I will probably drop a pithing needle or declaration of naught naming griselbrand. Does that make him too strong? The way I see it, completely banning him from the format rewards players who don't want to actively deal with a threat that has a big effect. To top it off, GB is no where near emrakul in terms of stoppability. What is the RC's criteria for worst thing ever or just being really good?
Both points are worth repeating. I could see grounds for a GB ban or not. It really will depend on how he influences less competitive circles; he's breakable for sure, but other broken options are available already. So in those circles will he have the Emrakul affect and drastically warp less competitive meta games around him? or will he just be a big bomb like any other 8cc creature worth casting? The RC is handling GB in a reasonable manner; unlike Kokusho...
Except kokusho is not even good without recurring nightmare (which must stay banned). What you are advocating is growing the banlist and keeping kokusho on there, which will kill the format (remember prismatic). In fact, What you said makes no sense, you're saying since something was broken in the past, it should stay banned because it was broken regardless of power creep. He was an old offender, but his impact WOULD be minimal, there are just better, stronger, more degenerate bombs that are harder to deal with and warp the game. Kokusho doesn't warp the game around himself as much as ptime or sphinx.
Players want a smaller banlist that MAKES SENSE. Balance was never an issue, it just has to make sense. Keeping koko on there when you have 10+ degenerate warping bombs is laughable at best. You know what makes this format great? You can play all the degenerate stuff you want and do crazy broken vintage stuff and if your group doesn't like it, you can make a house rule banning it or controlling how its used. If you want the RC to legislate what's broken and what's not your banlist will not only be miles long, but no one will follow it anyway and pick another one. You'll have a balanced banlist that no one will use, congrats!
I can play black mike and triskellion and ping everyone to death, or throw curiosity on Niv and ping everyone to death, or a Sharuum combo, or....
It's not a matter of Kokusho vs pTitan but that to abuse Kokusho you are jumping through more hoops than many of the win options already available now... Honestly a bit of removal, disruption, or grave-hate will bone Kokusho.
pithing needle will be useful in any game but will stop a Kokusho deck dead.(late night thought lapse, best to disregard) If he's their general then black will have a hellish time removing him. If he is not their general (BTW I would be quite happy if he was made like rofellos; legal as a non-general) then exile him or hit him with grave hate; He's not the general so he can't just recast him.The fact that he is both counterable (counterspells, removal, gravehate, discard etc...) and made to look like a joke amongst big mana and exsanguinate means there is no legitimate argument for his continued ban without a massive banning; which most players do not favor.
No... Sorry, but you are completely wrong in this case. There is no difference. Kokusho doesn't time walk, or have GB draw ability. He doesn't have sphinx's draw ability, he doesn't ramp you to victory, he's not an indestructable infectious behemouth, he doesn't blow up the board. He doesn't do anything with out an enabler. Sharrum, Mike, ghave, the mimeoplasm, and GB flat out win the game when cast, and GB needs to be built around to completely abuse that sheer advantage. Any general can be a direct cause of winning the game... To top it off, the amount of resources you need to adequately abuse kokusho (especially as a general) is massive, you're better off figuring out how to recur exanguinate, it's much easier.
You are absolutely correct. You have a firm understanding of the rules and how abilities work. How this is relevant to the debate of kokusho.... I have no idea. Pithing needle does stop crazy interactions like ghave, azami, and it does stop triskellion from killing the table. Other than that, it's worth running because you can shut down problem cards.
You have failed to justify why kokusho should remained banned, the only reasoning you have presented is illogical fear.
In other news, grave digger's cage... I like it now
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StaffI think this is a very well thought out reasoning as to the impact Koko makes to the mentality of players on the board. It makes everyone nervous, which isn't good for a fun game.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I don't think we really disagree when it comes down to it. We just view it in different extremes.
This is essentially the same thing as the Primevil theory except you don't have to fight over a creature and waste resources and time doing it.
I like playing Primevil Titan and Sol Ring and all the busted cards too, but there comes a point where I realized, there's no other card like Primevil Titan. I can't just replace him if he gets banned, I have to look to other alternatives, which could be for better or worse.. which kind leads me to a off topic question from the forum:
Lots of people cite the death of the Prismatic(SP?) format was due to over banning. Is there a history I can read about this ? anything about ban choices and time lines etc.. ? I'm having a hard time understanding the comparison. When you have access to all 5 colors is that format, I would assume there's a natural balance, but in this format you're restricted to the colors of your commander, leading to over/under powered colors/deck, which might be balanced through bans. (Just a thought, since I don't know the history the format, I could be totally off base) If you have a link let me know.
EDIT:
I'm pretty sure it's been shown time and time again, that the required hoops you have to go through to have Kokusho win the game are unrealistic at this point in the formats life. He has to go to the graveyard 8 times to kill someone/everyone.
Except if he eats a Path, Swords, Ashes to Ashes etc.... where as Primevil Titan has already done the damage once he comes into play, getting any two lands you want (hello Coffers+Urborg.. whoops I just won the game) Kokusho can't even see this type of first class play while sitting in coach.
EDIT2:
Primevil Titan has the same affect. If you don't follow the same steps of stealing,recurring, copying etc.. you will most likely lose or watch as your table blows out and you sit there not having any fun. Fundamentally, the psychological effect these cards have is the same (IMO)
Funny... I didn't know that kokusho had built in sacrifice ability.
You need other cards to work with Kokusho just like any other card.
You're right, they don't do what he does, they just do it better. Once again, you have failed to prove that kokusho auto wins. You need a recursion or a sac effect to make kokusho work to gain 15-20 life. That's only 5 damage per player.... and you're spending 6+ mana and two cards to do this..... lawl. That's a joke play. That's only 5 mana per player, congrats, you will lose that buffer and then some because the whole table just decided to kill you. If you manage to recure it 4+ times then you have a way over 20 mana in which case you deserve to win for getting there (btw with 20 mana exaguinate does 18 to each player kokusho only does 15 and i'm not factoring the cost of the recur effects).
I'm having trouble taking you seriously at this point because your posts seem trollish at best. Kokusho doesn't warp the game around himself without help from other cards just like any other bomb you mentioned. The only bomb that really does this atm is consecrated sphinx (sticking within the realm of silly 6 drops). Wait no, I lied, the blue spinx requires that your opponents must still be alive to be truly abuseable and it gives you enourmous card advantage. Kokusho just makes you gain 15-20 life and makes you discard a card for 6+ mana and may win the game over a few turns around turn 10 or later. Now let's compare that to sharuum or the mimeoplasm... yeah... they kinda auto win when they enter the battlefield... immediately.
And if you didn't get it "the point" you attempted to defies logic and therefore cannot be taken seriously.
Are they using Corpse Dance, with its heavy mana cost? A bounced Makeshift Mannequin or Karmic Guide? Some other card I'm not aware of?
I understand that he gains a lot of life, but life doesn't win you the game. I recently lost a 1 vs 1 game while at 92 life because I had no way to kill my opponent's shrouded general; he was at 6 life, and I had no creature position beyond a 2/2.
I understand why everyone wants a piece of the Koko-nut cream pie (The life gain is still a very nice buffer to have when you want to play riskier), but he's not going to win the game, and there are other creatures that people fight over that are far worse.
I guess Juggernaut should still be banned then.
It's not because of individual power cards; Goblin Welder is one of the best creatures in the format, and he's Red. It's more that Green, Black, and Blue just already have the best card advantage mechanics for this format.
Banning the power creatures in those three colors won't stop them from having amazing card draw, amazing ramp, amazing tutors, or counterspells.
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How is that a huge difference? In a resource-driven game like Magic, it shouldn't be a huge difference if you generate an enormous slippery-slope effect that puts you so far ahead.
In other resource-driven games like chess and Starcraft, the game is usually decided well before the game technically ends. You may have technically lost a game of chess because you were checkmated on move 60, but the real reason you lost was because you hung a bishop on move 20. You may technically lose in Starcraft because your base was destroyed, but the real reason you lose in Starcraft is when you fall behind in units + resources, forcing you to try to catch up and risking falling further and further behind. That's why you see so many concessions in chess and Starcraft.
Same thing goes for Magic. A game might have ended because someone Exsanguinated for lethal, but the real reason they won was because they played Primeval Titan, got Urborg/Coffers, and untapped with it on their next turn because the table failed to find an immediate answer. You can't just look at something that physically ended the game and single that out as being the reason why you lost. When the gameplay is directly tied to how many resources you have on hand, that's where you look to see who's "ahead". That's the big reason why life totals "don't always matter". Since life is an intangible resource that does not affect your ability to play the game, its one of those things that you can happily afford to lose with little consequence (see: painlands, shocklands, etc.).
Any card that generates tangible resources, and can generated said resources repetitively like Prime Titan/Sphinx/Griselbrand has the ability to create a slippery slope effect. These cards allow a person to create the ability to get ahead and immediately be in a position to get even more ahead by continuing to accumulate resources. It doesn't take long for the advantage to balloon out of control if nothing is immediately done to stop that player. So even though cards like Titan/Sphinx/Grisel/etc. don't actually physically win the game on their own, they put you in a position so advantageous that it really doesn't matter what you do to win the game at that point.
I'm aware of "the reason", but it doesn't hold any substance today because the logic of banning Kokusho was made over 4 years ago when the format was still in its infancy.
- No one played graveyard hate, and there wasn't the effective graveyard hate we have today.
- There were few other jacked up creatures back then.
- Probably most importantly, Recurring Nightmare was banned at the same time Kokusho was. Without a broken enabler fueling the card, Kokusho was never given a chance to see what he could have done without Recurring Nightmare. Time and time again, the history of Magic has shown that enablers are the problem, and not the finishers.
Currently Kokusho remains on the ban list because of inertia, which is a pretty bad reason to keep him on there.
I don't have to make people not view your opinions seriously or objectively. You state things that don't exist, do not back up your claims with data or facts, and your best argument is "he was banned for a reason, so he should stay banned" wake up, the environment has changed and the powercreep has creeped way above kokopuff.
I've been playing mtg before recurring nightmare and kokusho were printed. I have played with kokusho in my playgroup with the expressed purpose to abuse it in a recursion engine, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. The most broken thing i ever did with him as was sac and recur him 8 times in one turn with that lich from dark ascension... it cost above 50 mana to pull that off and I had to play time stretch to set it up...... this was around turn 20...
Why it was banned is irrelevant to the discussion today. All the factors that went into his banning are no longer present or matter. I'm sorry if that bothers you but that's the truth, if the RC wanted to keep the power level constant over the last 2 years the banlist would be huge. The power of this game has changed and surpassed kokopuff deal with it. "it was banned for a reason let's keep it banned" is silly and that's why I consider you a troll cause no reasonable person would use this as an argument. I have the experience play testing it... it's great when it works, but the resources to make it work are massive and compounds when you attempt to recur it.
What's the relevance of your last point? That the three colors that generate the most card advantage are the best? No one cares and it's irrelevant to the discussion of the banlist because the banlist is not to police and keep all the colors equal. It's to keep degenerate FORMAT warping cards out of the general inter play group arena. You have not proved kokusho will warp the FORMAT i'm sorry if that bothers you but your arguments have little to no substance or analysis behind them.