Actually, my deck doesn't really need colorless mana. Almost all of my cards in it are 1 xx or less (I have 4 cards that are in the 4 range), so Sol Ring just simply doesn't do enough.
What any actual high powered deck needs is to hit it's colors as fast as possible in order to have Hymn to tourach, Mana Drain (Still need one....) and Vindicate asap.
Moxen allow me to do that. Signets allow me to do that. Sol Ring does not.
There are only two reasons I often try to fit Sol Ring into my Zur deck;
1: I need an extra Artifact to ensure Mox Opal gets turned on.
2: I want someone to stupidly remove Sol Ring instead of something of more value.
And honestly, both of those reasons often get trumped by running another answer.
Sol ring will STILL let you cast 1xx cards faster than a signet would.
You hugely over-rate hymn to tourach if you cut sol ring for it, especially in a multiplayer game. If you are playing 1v1, sol ring is just outright banned so the discussion is irrelevant.
Wrong. A Sol Ring will let me cast certain kinds of 1xx cards. A Signet will open up all of them, depending on lands.
Furthermore, because a Signet doesn't eat up my first turn (unless I mox my way into it, which often leads to a T2 Zur the Enchanter, or a sometimes more powerful Luminarch Ascension on T1 skipping the signet all together ) I have a Hallowed Fountain untapped for a Swansong or a Path to Exile (for something like a Serra Ascendant or other early game nonsense).
And actually, I cut Sol Ring for Maze of Ith initially.
I want you to explain to me why you feel Sol Ring is the be-all-end-all of Commander. Why is it overpowered? Why is it broken?
I really don't feel like spending a few hours typing up why a card as obviously broken as sol ring is overpowered.
You say it doesn't eat up your first turn, but...you are ok with a signet eating up your far more powerful second turn? What?
The hand you listed with sol ring will almost certainly be a full turn faster than the hand you listed with signet.
Actually, my deck doesn't really need colorless mana. Almost all of my cards in it are 1 xx or less (I have 4 cards that are in the 4 range), so Sol Ring just simply doesn't do enough.
What any actual high powered deck needs is to hit it's colors as fast as possible in order to have Hymn to tourach, Mana Drain (Still need one....) and Vindicate asap.
Moxen allow me to do that. Signets allow me to do that. Sol Ring does not.
There are only two reasons I often try to fit Sol Ring into my Zur deck;
1: I need an extra Artifact to ensure Mox Opal gets turned on.
2: I want someone to stupidly remove Sol Ring instead of something of more value.
And honestly, both of those reasons often get trumped by running another answer.
Sol ring will STILL let you cast 1xx cards faster than a signet would.
You hugely over-rate hymn to tourach if you cut sol ring for it, especially in a multiplayer game. If you are playing 1v1, sol ring is just outright banned so the discussion is irrelevant.
Wrong. A Sol Ring will let me cast certain kinds of 1xx cards. A Signet will open up all of them, depending on lands.
Furthermore, because a Signet doesn't eat up my first turn (unless I mox my way into it, which often leads to a T2 Zur the Enchanter, or a sometimes more powerful Luminarch Ascension on T1 skipping the signet all together ) I have a Hallowed Fountain untapped for a Swansong or a Path to Exile (for something like a Serra Ascendant or other early game nonsense).
And actually, I cut Sol Ring for Maze of Ith initially.
I want you to explain to me why you feel Sol Ring is the be-all-end-all of Commander. Why is it overpowered? Why is it broken?
I really don't feel like spending a few hours typing up why a card as obviously broken as sol ring is overpowered.
You say it doesn't eat up your first turn, but...you are ok with a signet eating up your far more powerful second turn? What?
The hand you listed with sol ring will almost certainly be a full turn faster than the hand you listed with signet.
If it's so obviously broken, it shouldn't take you too long to type it out, my main man.
Power of a turn is relative; it all comes down to what you can do when. It also comes down to what your opponents are doing. A Sol Ring T1 isn't as powerful as a Hermit Druid T2. A Hermit Druid T2 isn't as powerful as a Force Spike played on a bare island T1. Any combo deck just kind of folds to an uncountered Sadistic Sacrament on T3 (Which goes back into the "Need to hit all colors ASAP" factor).
The hand would be faster, yes, but in the event of being stuck on lands/mana screw (Hey, it happens to everyone) or other such nonsense, I can suddenly cast almost every spell in my deck. That's a lot more powerful than being able to cast Counterspell on T2. Not so with the Sol Ring hand.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Only if you don't know how to build a proper curve....
I think I found the Hearthstone player...
I've played maybe four games of that very basic TCG. It's.... not my style.
You can't possibly be serious. Your deck, sight unseen, needs colorless mana. It needs it enough to warrant running sol ring.
The only reasons not to run sol ring are:
1: You are deliberately powering down your deck
2: You are making a theme deck
3: You forgot sol ring is a card
While I strongly disagree with these points, there's an important addition to them you missed:
And yet, you are taking those rules out of context:
#1 Barrier to entry.
The barrier to entry rule is not simply about price, or availability. It's about iconic status. It's about the "Over the Shoulder" experience of the game. Someone walks past, and sees Moxen and Black Lotus, that they don't have, and figure they can't play this game. Yes, Tabernacle and other cards have a high price tag, and have a level of iconic status, but that status does not reach the level of Moxen, Black Lotus, or other vintage power. The Rules Committee has explained this point numerous times, and have already said that it is extremely unlikely that any other card ever be placed on the list due to these criteria. There will never be a "hard cut off point" of price for a banning. How would that even work? The very act of banning a card could make the price decrease... do you spend alternate ban seasons banning and unbanning the card as it passes up and down over the limit?
The RC has clearly defined their stance as to what this criteria means to them, and abide by it. There is no hypocrisy, even if you disagree on what the criteria means to you.
#2 Centralizing
Centralizing does not necessarily mean that a card is present in X% of decks. It has to do with the gameplay impact of the card. The last cards to get banned for centralization were Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial. The presence of either of which meant that it was the only target to steal, reanimate, bribery, or clone. It wasn't banned on a strict count of representation in decks, but rather upon a judgement of the immediate value gained vs the centralizing effect in game play. Sol Ring does not achieve that. While Thada Adel may go off and steal as many rings as she can get her grubby hands on, Rings aren't a priority kill on sight at every point of every game. They aren't the de facto bribery, clone, theft, reanimate target for every deck. There are no battles of who gets to hold the rings. Rings are ubiquitous, not centralizing.
The [Sol Ring] hand would be faster, yes, but in the event of being stuck on lands/mana screw (Hey, it happens to everyone) or other such nonsense, I can suddenly cast almost every spell in my deck. That's a lot more powerful than being able to cast Counterspell on T2. Not so with the Sol Ring hand.
I'm suddenly reminded that your entrance into this conversation was:
Commander is Legendary Creature+ Sol Ring+98 cards
Only if you don't know how to build a proper curve....
And your proper curve is a deck of almost exclusively 3 drops or less, I had to chuckle. Don't get me wrong, even before taking out all my Sol Rings because I think it's game ruining, I did have decks lacking Sol Ring because it didn't make the cut, most specifically Rakdos, Lord of Riots, but you're being a bit absurd. You happen to be playing one of the few very specific strategies that can cut Sol Ring effectively (after careful consideration which you obviously gave to it), and you're acting like people starting their deck construction with Sol Ring are being foolish. You know very well that you can play without Sol Ring and hold up a turn 1 Swan Song or you can play Sol Ring into Signet and have turn 2 Zur with mana open for that same Swan Song protecting Zur, which is immensely harder to deal with if a bit less consistent.
You know what Sol Ring does, or you wouldn't have thought about what it would do in your deck like this. Don't needlessly pretend you're ignorant of its impact.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I've seen acquire for sol ring, but mostly due to a lack of targets in said deck. I've also played a lot of praetor's grasp, but that's the same reason I've run wishes. I'm looking for the weird jank I probably wouldn't stuff in a deck, but is useful right this second. I definitely have a soft spot for the weird niche rares. I actually glittering wished for wheel of Sun and moon once. Of course, it's casual, so I go get some random thing I own if I can find it in a reasonable time amount.
The [Sol Ring] hand would be faster, yes, but in the event of being stuck on lands/mana screw (Hey, it happens to everyone) or other such nonsense, I can suddenly cast almost every spell in my deck. That's a lot more powerful than being able to cast Counterspell on T2. Not so with the Sol Ring hand.
I'm suddenly reminded that your entrance into this conversation was:
Commander is Legendary Creature+ Sol Ring+98 cards
Only if you don't know how to build a proper curve....
And your proper curve is a deck of almost exclusively 3 drops or less, I had to chuckle. Don't get me wrong, even before taking out all my Sol Rings because I think it's game ruining, I did have decks lacking Sol Ring because it didn't make the cut, most specifically Rakdos, Lord of Riots, but you're being a bit absurd. You happen to be playing one of the few very specific strategies that can cut Sol Ring effectively (after careful consideration which you obviously gave to it), and you're acting like people starting their deck construction with Sol Ring are being foolish. You know very well that you can play without Sol Ring and hold up a turn 1 Swan Song or you can play Sol Ring into Signet and have turn 2 Zur with mana open for that same Swan Song protecting Zur, which is immensely harder to deal with if a bit less consistent.
You know what Sol Ring does, or you wouldn't have thought about what it would do in your deck like this. Don't needlessly pretend you're ignorant of its impact.
Being able to play cards is much better than being stuck with 7-11 mana cards without your ramp.
Find the best cards for the lowest cost. It works wonders.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
These are the same reasons this is legal in EDH when none of the other power is.
I would like that to change, however unlikely it might be. I believe that the Moxen and Black Lotus could be unbanned without negatively affecting the vast, vast majority of EDH games.
I believe that the Moxen and Black Lotus could be unbanned without negatively affecting the vast, vast majority of EDH games.
The major beef with Sol Ring is the early game mana providing a burst. With 6 new cards that provide more mana than they cost, and now it's COLORED, you don't see an issue? You can't really be that short-sited, right?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I believe that the Moxen and Black Lotus could be unbanned without negatively affecting the vast, vast majority of EDH games.
The major beef with Sol Ring is the early game mana providing a burst. With 6 new cards that provide more mana than they cost, and now it's COLORED, you don't see an issue? You can't really be that short-sited, right?
Well, when you look at is, impossible is right. It wouldn't effect that many games because hardly anyone has the cards. I think I learned in a logic course that sometimes true statements can lead to false conclusions.
Yeah I can already see my local Mr. Moneybags roll up with his Narset deck (Which is already stupidly tuned) and now with Moxens. His Nekussar with Moxens is also not going to be particularly fun to face, and even just one Mox in his Tomorrow deck fills me with dread. And since nobody else at my LGS has them, it's basically a free pass for him to play better decks than ours simply by virtue of him having them and we don't.
You could try and make the same argument for various cards, but here's the thing; there is no comparison. Is the deck with the Tundra better than the deck that doesn't run it? Only ever so slightly. The amount of times a dual really matters on most tables isn't all that high. For a few other high-priced cards, they either aren't all that great to begin with (Imperial Seal, while good, is far from gamebreaking when Vampiric Tutor is around) or they only fit in some specific strategies (Tabernacle).
Moxens would go in EVERY. DECK. Well, aside from Karn, Kozilek and Ulamog, but that's semantics. Now you could argue "But so does Sol Ring". Yeah, okay. Sol Ring is a few bucks at worst, more if you want an old version. Nobody has troubles acquiring Sol Ring. Mana Crypt already causes plenty of grumbling but has enough drawbacks to prevent it from being a must-have, and instead it's just a very good card that happens to be very pricey, but isn't a must when all comes down to it. The Moxens would not have this going for them. I'm trying to come up with scenarios where I wouldn't want the Moxens in any of my decks and I'm coming up short, and I have a nice variety of decks, if I say so myself. Only my Child of Alara wouldn't run it but that's a Pauper deck, so...yeah.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Mana Crypt already causes plenty of grumbling but has enough drawbacks to prevent it from being a must-have, and instead it's just a very good card that happens to be very pricey, but isn't a must when all comes down to it.
Mana crypt is absolutely a must have and the only reason it isn't run in everything already is because of its cost.
But its cost is not a perceived barrier to entry. It's high, but not unobtainably so. You could trade a small pile of standard stuff for a crypt without too much problem.
Good luck doing that with a Mox.
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I hope you aren't serious. There is a world of difference between Sol Ring and Command Tower. Tower's effect is shared by around 35 different cards. Ring's effect (early game extreme gas) is shared by 2 legal and 6 non-legal cards.
You missed the point; I wasn't saying that Sol ring is balanced, I said that if Sol Ring were to be banned, it should not be because of popularity. Yes Sol ring is very strong, but if it should be banned, it should be because it is too strong, not because it is a staple.
On a different topic, what's the broken loop with recurring nightmare? It's powerful, sure, but is it that game-breaking? It doesn't seem that strong. Yes, it's cost to bounce it, but instant speed enchantment removal stops the card.
I hope you aren't serious. There is a world of difference between Sol Ring and Command Tower. Tower's effect is shared by around 35 different cards. Ring's effect (early game extreme gas) is shared by 2 legal and 6 non-legal cards.
You missed the point; I wasn't saying that Sol ring is balanced, I said that if Sol Ring were to be banned, it should not be because of popularity. Yes Sol ring is very strong, but if it should be banned, it should be because it is too strong, not because it is a staple.
On a different topic, what's the broken loop with recurring nightmare? It's powerful, sure, but is it that game-breaking? It doesn't seem that strong. Yes, it's cost to bounce it, but instant speed enchantment removal stops the card.
4/15/2013 If you cast this as normal during your main phase, it will enter the battlefield and you'll receive priority. If no abilities trigger because of this, you can activate its ability immediately, before any other player has a chance to remove it from the battlefield.
I believe that the Moxen and Black Lotus could be unbanned without negatively affecting the vast, vast majority of EDH games.
The major beef with Sol Ring is the early game mana providing a burst. With 6 new cards that provide more mana than they cost, and now it's COLORED, you don't see an issue? You can't really be that short-sited, right?
Well, when you look at is, impossible is right. It wouldn't effect that many games because hardly anyone has the cards. I think I learned in a logic course that sometimes true statements can lead to false conclusions.
I am, of course, working from the assumption that Sol Ring is an acceptable card for the format, as that is the apparent position of the RC. The Moxen don't do anything that Sol Ring doesn't already do but better. If that's not true, then yes my argument is wrong and should be ignored.
Yes, I'll admit I don't particularly want to play against the P9 version of Hermit Druid or anything like that, but I don't want to play against those decks anyways -- Powered or not -- because they're simply unfun. People can play the Moxen fairly, in moderately powerful decks without problem, exactly like Sol Ring.
4/15/2013 If you cast this as normal during your main phase, it will enter the battlefield and you'll receive priority. If no abilities trigger because of this, you can activate its ability immediately, before any other player has a chance to remove it from the battlefield.
Thanks for the ruling.
On a different card. The RC seemed to have banned multiple 'one-card' win conditions/broken cards, eventhoughthey arehard to pull off;if so, why isn't Tooth and nail banned?
It's a one card win condition that costs 9 mana and is incredibly easy to pull off? All you need is the one card to resolve.
Coalition victory requires 5 different land types, Biorhythm requires a clear board/little creatures while you have a bunch, Worldfire requires a very lucky topdeck/casting it at instant speed in response to a gut shot or a burn card, and Sway requires you to float a bunch of mana when the spell already costs 10. At least the ones that are banned can be considered sneaky ways to win. Tooth and nail is, well, a one card win condition. Yes, it has the potential to be interesting, but 1/2 of the time, it searches an infinite combo or a way to win.
I believe that the Moxen and Black Lotus could be unbanned without negatively affecting the vast, vast majority of EDH games.
The major beef with Sol Ring is the early game mana providing a burst. With 6 new cards that provide more mana than they cost, and now it's COLORED, you don't see an issue? You can't really be that short-sited, right?
Well, when you look at is, impossible is right. It wouldn't effect that many games because hardly anyone has the cards. I think I learned in a logic course that sometimes true statements can lead to false conclusions.
I am, of course, working from the assumption that Sol Ring is an acceptable card for the format, as that is the apparent position of the RC. The Moxen don't do anything that Sol Ring doesn't already do but better. If that's not true, then yes my argument is wrong and should be ignored.
Yes, I'll admit I don't particularly want to play against the P9 version of Hermit Druid or anything like that, but I don't want to play against those decks anyways -- Powered or not -- because they're simply unfun. People can play the Moxen fairly, in moderately powerful decks without problem, exactly like Sol Ring.
Sol Ring =/= Moxen. The Moxen do some things better than Sol Ring, and some things worse. I'm going anecdotal here, but I'm looking for example at my Karlov deck. The deck REALLY wants to have a T1 Soul Sister/Lifelinker (8 choices there) followed up by a T2 Karlov. In every conceivable start, the Moxen will outpreform Sol Ring there as they do not eat up my colored mana for the turn - they even add to it - and they also ensure that I can get Karlov even from a 2-same-basic-land start more often if I get the appropriate Mox. This is but one example of a deck where the Moxen outpreform Sol Ring. I'm also working on a Grenzo deck where the same will be true, and my old Lyzolda deck would've ran the Moxen over Sol Ring in a heartbeat.
You've got to keep in mind that that coloured mana does a lot, especially in 2/3 coloured decks where you need to hit specific combinations early on - the more aggressive builds. This includes obvious top-tier stuff like Zur, but also more mid-tier stuff like Karlov or Vorel. This means that the Moxen definitely hold certain points over Sol Ring, points that cannot be ignored.
Sol Ring was a mistake, but due to the way it's been distributed, it's not easy to pull back. However, it's impact on the game is limited in that there's only ONE per deck, meaning that you can't reliably bet on having it all the time. If a deck can also run various Moxens, deck building will be skewed towards them, and suddenly one has not 1 or 2, but 4 or 5 broken mana rocks they can draw into early. It'd be overkill.
And then there's the Percieved Barrier to Entry bit, as has already been explained more properly than I could. It's hard to tell someone who's just looking over your shoulder that "Commander is easy to get in to and can be very cheap" when the field holds several Moxens.
@ Soulbanana:
Tooth and Nail can resolve without winning you the game. And even if you do get a "loliwin" combo, there are various cards that are heavily played that can still interrupt with those combos, from Hushwing Gryff to Doom Blade to Chaos Warp. The others you mentioned:
Coalition Relic: Any 5 color deck can fire it off from just 3 lands (Duals/Shocks/Tangos) + Reaper King/Any other 5color card. It resolves? GG, no questions asked.
Biorhytm: It's in green so it can easily be reached, and even if it isn't an IWin button, you're still invalidating the entire game that happened before it.
Worldfire: Float mana, cast Worldfire, cast Commander. Right, about this game we were having...
Sway of the Stars: Wouldn't be an issue if not for the 7 life thing.
Now I'm not a fan of Tooth and Nail, but it has more interaction than any of the cards you've listed.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Biorhythm suddenly drops everyone at the table to single digits (except the token player if he just went off without a haste outlet). So all the jockeying up to that point is essentially invalidated. Sway of the Stars resets the game except for commander tax and sets life totals low, which is going to be miserable for anyone (even before you add in floating mana to recast your commander). Worldfire wipes the board and puts everyone in top deck mode at one life but you floated enough mana to cast your commander; if he's Zo-Zu there isn't even the illusion that someone could recover and kill you.
I'm trying to count the amount of times I've seen T&N grab anything but an instant win combo. In the last year, I think it happened once because the guy didn't like infinites. Compared with around 25 games ended (some as early as Turn 5 with ramp).
I believe that the Moxen and Black Lotus could be unbanned without negatively affecting the vast, vast majority of EDH games.
The major beef with Sol Ring is the early game mana providing a burst. With 6 new cards that provide more mana than they cost, and now it's COLORED, you don't see an issue? You can't really be that short-sited, right?
Well, when you look at is, impossible is right. It wouldn't effect that many games because hardly anyone has the cards. I think I learned in a logic course that sometimes true statements can lead to false conclusions.
I am, of course, working from the assumption that Sol Ring is an acceptable card for the format, as that is the apparent position of the RC. The Moxen don't do anything that Sol Ring doesn't already do but better. If that's not true, then yes my argument is wrong and should be ignored.
Yes, I'll admit I don't particularly want to play against the P9 version of Hermit Druid or anything like that, but I don't want to play against those decks anyways -- Powered or not -- because they're simply unfun. People can play the Moxen fairly, in moderately powerful decks without problem, exactly like Sol Ring.
Sol Ring =/= Moxen. The Moxen do some things better than Sol Ring, and some things worse. I'm going anecdotal here, but I'm looking for example at my Karlov deck. The deck REALLY wants to have a T1 Soul Sister/Lifelinker (8 choices there) followed up by a T2 Karlov. In every conceivable start, the Moxen will outpreform Sol Ring there as they do not eat up my colored mana for the turn - they even add to it - and they also ensure that I can get Karlov even from a 2-same-basic-land start more often if I get the appropriate Mox. This is but one example of a deck where the Moxen outpreform Sol Ring. I'm also working on a Grenzo deck where the same will be true, and my old Lyzolda deck would've ran the Moxen over Sol Ring in a heartbeat.
You've got to keep in mind that that coloured mana does a lot, especially in 2/3 coloured decks where you need to hit specific combinations early on - the more aggressive builds. This includes obvious top-tier stuff like Zur, but also more mid-tier stuff like Karlov or Vorel. This means that the Moxen definitely hold certain points over Sol Ring, points that cannot be ignored.
Sol Ring was a mistake, but due to the way it's been distributed, it's not easy to pull back. However, it's impact on the game is limited in that there's only ONE per deck, meaning that you can't reliably bet on having it all the time. If a deck can also run various Moxens, deck building will be skewed towards them, and suddenly one has not 1 or 2, but 4 or 5 broken mana rocks they can draw into early. It'd be overkill.
And then there's the Percieved Barrier to Entry bit, as has already been explained more properly than I could. It's hard to tell someone who's just looking over your shoulder that "Commander is easy to get in to and can be very cheap" when the field holds several Moxens.
@ Soulbanana:
Tooth and Nail can resolve without winning you the game. And even if you do get a "loliwin" combo, there are various cards that are heavily played that can still interrupt with those combos, from Hushwing Gryff to Doom Blade to Chaos Warp. The others you mentioned:
Coalition Relic: Any 5 color deck can fire it off from just 3 lands (Duals/Shocks/Tangos) + Reaper King/Any other 5color card. It resolves? GG, no questions asked.
Biorhytm: It's in green so it can easily be reached, and even if it isn't an IWin button, you're still invalidating the entire game that happened before it.
Worldfire: Float mana, cast Worldfire, cast Commander. Right, about this game we were having...
Sway of the Stars: Wouldn't be an issue if not for the 7 life thing.
Now I'm not a fan of Tooth and Nail, but it has more interaction than any of the cards you've listed.
And if you counter any of those cards, they do nothing. If you Strip Mine one of the lands in response to CV, it stops it. If you nuke the 5-color creature, the combo stops. If you discard any of these cards before they are cast, they do nothing.
The issue arises when they aren't stopped. THE EXACT SAME AS TOOTH AND NAIL. For every 1 Timmy that grabs Pelakka Wurm and Worldspine Wurm for his Wurm tribal, four more pull an instant kill combo. For every 1 Johnny that would play Sway of the Stars in his TimeTwisterTribal, 4 more would kill everyone with it. So why is the latter situation less acceptable than the first? Because the latter "Invalidates everything to that point?" Know what else does that? Instant killing the board with Mike&Trike or Craterhoof/Avenger or any of the other 2 creature insta-gibs.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I'm trying to count the amount of times I've seen T&N grab anything but an instant win combo. In the last year, I think it happened once because the guy didn't like infinites. Compared with around 25 games ended (some as early as Turn 5 with ramp).
And if you counter any of those cards, they do nothing. If you Strip Mine one of the lands in response to CV, it stops it. If you nuke the 5-color creature, the combo stops. If you discard any of these cards before they are cast, they do nothing.
The issue arises when they aren't stopped. THE EXACT SAME AS TOOTH AND NAIL. For every 1 Timmy that grabs Pelakka Wurm and Worldspine Wurm for his Wurm tribal, four more pull an instant kill combo. For every 1 Johnny that would play Sway of the Stars in his TimeTwisterTribal, 4 more would kill everyone with it. So why is the latter situation less acceptable than the first? Because the latter "Invalidates everything to that point?" Know what else does that? Instant killing the board with Mike&Trike or Craterhoof/Avenger or any of the other 2 creature insta-gibs.
You're preaching to the choir. I'm not a fan of Tooth & Nail myself and would not shed a tear about it's ban if it were to happen. I was simply comparing it to the other cards mentioned and added the reasonings given prior.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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I really don't feel like spending a few hours typing up why a card as obviously broken as sol ring is overpowered.
You say it doesn't eat up your first turn, but...you are ok with a signet eating up your far more powerful second turn? What?
The hand you listed with sol ring will almost certainly be a full turn faster than the hand you listed with signet.
If it's so obviously broken, it shouldn't take you too long to type it out, my main man.
Power of a turn is relative; it all comes down to what you can do when. It also comes down to what your opponents are doing. A Sol Ring T1 isn't as powerful as a Hermit Druid T2. A Hermit Druid T2 isn't as powerful as a Force Spike played on a bare island T1. Any combo deck just kind of folds to an uncountered Sadistic Sacrament on T3 (Which goes back into the "Need to hit all colors ASAP" factor).
The hand would be faster, yes, but in the event of being stuck on lands/mana screw (Hey, it happens to everyone) or other such nonsense, I can suddenly cast almost every spell in my deck. That's a lot more powerful than being able to cast Counterspell on T2. Not so with the Sol Ring hand.
While I strongly disagree with these points, there's an important addition to them you missed:
4: You are Animar.
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StaffAnd yet, you are taking those rules out of context:
#1 Barrier to entry.
The barrier to entry rule is not simply about price, or availability. It's about iconic status. It's about the "Over the Shoulder" experience of the game. Someone walks past, and sees Moxen and Black Lotus, that they don't have, and figure they can't play this game. Yes, Tabernacle and other cards have a high price tag, and have a level of iconic status, but that status does not reach the level of Moxen, Black Lotus, or other vintage power. The Rules Committee has explained this point numerous times, and have already said that it is extremely unlikely that any other card ever be placed on the list due to these criteria. There will never be a "hard cut off point" of price for a banning. How would that even work? The very act of banning a card could make the price decrease... do you spend alternate ban seasons banning and unbanning the card as it passes up and down over the limit?
The RC has clearly defined their stance as to what this criteria means to them, and abide by it. There is no hypocrisy, even if you disagree on what the criteria means to you.
#2 Centralizing
Centralizing does not necessarily mean that a card is present in X% of decks. It has to do with the gameplay impact of the card. The last cards to get banned for centralization were Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial. The presence of either of which meant that it was the only target to steal, reanimate, bribery, or clone. It wasn't banned on a strict count of representation in decks, but rather upon a judgement of the immediate value gained vs the centralizing effect in game play. Sol Ring does not achieve that. While Thada Adel may go off and steal as many rings as she can get her grubby hands on, Rings aren't a priority kill on sight at every point of every game. They aren't the de facto bribery, clone, theft, reanimate target for every deck. There are no battles of who gets to hold the rings. Rings are ubiquitous, not centralizing.
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I'm suddenly reminded that your entrance into this conversation was:
And your proper curve is a deck of almost exclusively 3 drops or less, I had to chuckle. Don't get me wrong, even before taking out all my Sol Rings because I think it's game ruining, I did have decks lacking Sol Ring because it didn't make the cut, most specifically Rakdos, Lord of Riots, but you're being a bit absurd. You happen to be playing one of the few very specific strategies that can cut Sol Ring effectively (after careful consideration which you obviously gave to it), and you're acting like people starting their deck construction with Sol Ring are being foolish. You know very well that you can play without Sol Ring and hold up a turn 1 Swan Song or you can play Sol Ring into Signet and have turn 2 Zur with mana open for that same Swan Song protecting Zur, which is immensely harder to deal with if a bit less consistent.
You know what Sol Ring does, or you wouldn't have thought about what it would do in your deck like this. Don't needlessly pretend you're ignorant of its impact.
Being able to play cards is much better than being stuck with 7-11 mana cards without your ramp.
Find the best cards for the lowest cost. It works wonders.
I don't do that, because 7 drops can be super fun, but also the best mana generating card for the lowest cost is Sol Ring.
Well, when you look at is, impossible is right. It wouldn't effect that many games because hardly anyone has the cards. I think I learned in a logic course that sometimes true statements can lead to false conclusions.
You could try and make the same argument for various cards, but here's the thing; there is no comparison. Is the deck with the Tundra better than the deck that doesn't run it? Only ever so slightly. The amount of times a dual really matters on most tables isn't all that high. For a few other high-priced cards, they either aren't all that great to begin with (Imperial Seal, while good, is far from gamebreaking when Vampiric Tutor is around) or they only fit in some specific strategies (Tabernacle).
Moxens would go in EVERY. DECK. Well, aside from Karn, Kozilek and Ulamog, but that's semantics. Now you could argue "But so does Sol Ring". Yeah, okay. Sol Ring is a few bucks at worst, more if you want an old version. Nobody has troubles acquiring Sol Ring. Mana Crypt already causes plenty of grumbling but has enough drawbacks to prevent it from being a must-have, and instead it's just a very good card that happens to be very pricey, but isn't a must when all comes down to it. The Moxens would not have this going for them. I'm trying to come up with scenarios where I wouldn't want the Moxens in any of my decks and I'm coming up short, and I have a nice variety of decks, if I say so myself. Only my Child of Alara wouldn't run it but that's a Pauper deck, so...yeah.
Mana crypt is absolutely a must have and the only reason it isn't run in everything already is because of its cost.
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StaffGood luck doing that with a Mox.
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You missed the point; I wasn't saying that Sol ring is balanced, I said that if Sol Ring were to be banned, it should not be because of popularity. Yes Sol ring is very strong, but if it should be banned, it should be because it is too strong, not because it is a staple.
On a different topic, what's the broken loop with recurring nightmare? It's powerful, sure, but is it that game-breaking? It doesn't seem that strong. Yes, it's cost to bounce it, but instant speed enchantment removal stops the card.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
4/15/2013 If you cast this as normal during your main phase, it will enter the battlefield and you'll receive priority. If no abilities trigger because of this, you can activate its ability immediately, before any other player has a chance to remove it from the battlefield.
Yes, I'll admit I don't particularly want to play against the P9 version of Hermit Druid or anything like that, but I don't want to play against those decks anyways -- Powered or not -- because they're simply unfun. People can play the Moxen fairly, in moderately powerful decks without problem, exactly like Sol Ring.
Thanks for the ruling.
On a different card. The RC seemed to have banned multiple 'one-card' win conditions/broken cards, even though they are hard to pull off;if so, why isn't Tooth and nail banned?
It's a one card win condition that costs 9 mana and is incredibly easy to pull off? All you need is the one card to resolve.
Coalition victory requires 5 different land types, Biorhythm requires a clear board/little creatures while you have a bunch, Worldfire requires a very lucky topdeck/casting it at instant speed in response to a gut shot or a burn card, and Sway requires you to float a bunch of mana when the spell already costs 10. At least the ones that are banned can be considered sneaky ways to win. Tooth and nail is, well, a one card win condition. Yes, it has the potential to be interesting, but 1/2 of the time, it searches an infinite combo or a way to win.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Sol Ring =/= Moxen. The Moxen do some things better than Sol Ring, and some things worse. I'm going anecdotal here, but I'm looking for example at my Karlov deck. The deck REALLY wants to have a T1 Soul Sister/Lifelinker (8 choices there) followed up by a T2 Karlov. In every conceivable start, the Moxen will outpreform Sol Ring there as they do not eat up my colored mana for the turn - they even add to it - and they also ensure that I can get Karlov even from a 2-same-basic-land start more often if I get the appropriate Mox. This is but one example of a deck where the Moxen outpreform Sol Ring. I'm also working on a Grenzo deck where the same will be true, and my old Lyzolda deck would've ran the Moxen over Sol Ring in a heartbeat.
You've got to keep in mind that that coloured mana does a lot, especially in 2/3 coloured decks where you need to hit specific combinations early on - the more aggressive builds. This includes obvious top-tier stuff like Zur, but also more mid-tier stuff like Karlov or Vorel. This means that the Moxen definitely hold certain points over Sol Ring, points that cannot be ignored.
Sol Ring was a mistake, but due to the way it's been distributed, it's not easy to pull back. However, it's impact on the game is limited in that there's only ONE per deck, meaning that you can't reliably bet on having it all the time. If a deck can also run various Moxens, deck building will be skewed towards them, and suddenly one has not 1 or 2, but 4 or 5 broken mana rocks they can draw into early. It'd be overkill.
And then there's the Percieved Barrier to Entry bit, as has already been explained more properly than I could. It's hard to tell someone who's just looking over your shoulder that "Commander is easy to get in to and can be very cheap" when the field holds several Moxens.
@ Soulbanana:
Tooth and Nail can resolve without winning you the game. And even if you do get a "loliwin" combo, there are various cards that are heavily played that can still interrupt with those combos, from Hushwing Gryff to Doom Blade to Chaos Warp. The others you mentioned:
Coalition Relic: Any 5 color deck can fire it off from just 3 lands (Duals/Shocks/Tangos) + Reaper King/Any other 5color card. It resolves? GG, no questions asked.
Biorhytm: It's in green so it can easily be reached, and even if it isn't an IWin button, you're still invalidating the entire game that happened before it.
Worldfire: Float mana, cast Worldfire, cast Commander. Right, about this game we were having...
Sway of the Stars: Wouldn't be an issue if not for the 7 life thing.
Now I'm not a fan of Tooth and Nail, but it has more interaction than any of the cards you've listed.
And if you counter any of those cards, they do nothing. If you Strip Mine one of the lands in response to CV, it stops it. If you nuke the 5-color creature, the combo stops. If you discard any of these cards before they are cast, they do nothing.
The issue arises when they aren't stopped. THE EXACT SAME AS TOOTH AND NAIL. For every 1 Timmy that grabs Pelakka Wurm and Worldspine Wurm for his Wurm tribal, four more pull an instant kill combo. For every 1 Johnny that would play Sway of the Stars in his TimeTwisterTribal, 4 more would kill everyone with it. So why is the latter situation less acceptable than the first? Because the latter "Invalidates everything to that point?" Know what else does that? Instant killing the board with Mike&Trike or Craterhoof/Avenger or any of the other 2 creature insta-gibs.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I would never even consider running Mana Crypt in my Jaya Ballard deck, with all the damage doubling effects I run.
You're preaching to the choir. I'm not a fan of Tooth & Nail myself and would not shed a tear about it's ban if it were to happen. I was simply comparing it to the other cards mentioned and added the reasonings given prior.