Some time ago, I made a post about the effect Moxen, LoA, etc had in our playgroup. Those who did not have them wanted to see if it would really break the format. A friend, my brother and I play Vintage and Legacy. We were fortunate enough to have collected cards from obscure and unpopular card game since 1993. It was the time where Shivan Dragon could be traded for three Original Duals, and it was a bad deal for the dragon owner.
Moxen, LoA, etc destroyed EDH for the group. Understand, this was during the time that Fastbond, Channel, Tolarian Academy, etc were played. It was not a good idea, and it is still a bad idea.
Whomever stated the idea Black Lotus is better than Sol Ring in EDH, you are wrong. It is powerful, though. It used to allow turn one Black Braids/Rofellos which were the top generals during those years; yet, it also allowed wins because 3+ mana on a turn is enough of a leap to steal or seal a game. Sol Ring does not produce enough mana, color mana and costs 1 CMC which prevents it from doing what BL does. With that stated, it is not a good idea to unban it.
As for the argument about Moxen equal, better than, less than Sol Ring, it can be argued for years. My friend, brother and I firmly believe the Moxen are better. Our group most probably agrees; yet, a case for both can be made. Run all, it makes turn 1-3 plays and wins vastly more consistent.
Well I'd rather open with T1/T2-kill with Hermit Druid, Doomsday or some other wacky combo than with 4 mana on T2. Dude, if you assume that everyone's playing battle cruisers your arguments may have some validness. Other than that moxen are by far superior to Sol Ring when it comes to explosive starts. There shouldn't be even an argument about this.
And btw you can just as well play your T1 signet from a mox..
I'm pretty sure that's the point trying to be made. The vast, vast, vast majority of EDH decks aren't turn 2 combo decks. And that's because the majority of players don't want to play with or against decks like that. It's not even a budget thing, you can throw together a competent enough Doomsday or Ad Nauseam list to steamroll battle cruiser decks while barely cracking the triple digits. If everyone is playing 100 card singleton vintage, than the moxen or Black Lotus are absolutely more powerful than Sol Ring, but that doesn't matter if that's not what people are playing. In the global EDH community, most decks are big mana timmy decks simply because it's what people choose to play, and in decks like those, replacing Sol Ring with a mox or Black Lotus would be a worse replacement.
Like, what's stronger in the most powerful decks: Hermit Druid or Tooth and Nail? Hermit Druid absolutely. Which of those cards causes problems for more play groups in this format? Undoubtedly Tooth and Nail. You need context before trying to pin down a problem.
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IMO leave the power in your cube where it belongs.
Moxes would ruin the format if globally allowed, but if you happen to have a group that's OK with them and can self-police a bit then they're not going to be a major problem.
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Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
The real question isn't "Can we please ban Sol Ring?" because the RC has already grandfathered it in as a core part of the format despite it's ridiculous power; the question now is "Can we please unban the Moxen?". They're just Sol Rings. If we're already playing with one of the cycle we might as well play with all of them.
Worst suggestion of the year? WORST suggestion of the year.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I don't want Sol Ring to be banned, but I can understand why some people would. The fact that sol ring has been reprinted, and that it taps for colorless, means literally anyone can reasonably use one for their EDH deck. On the flipside, someone who gets a turn one sol ring in their opening hand, and has proper followup in their hand, can have an almost insurmountable early game advantage. This gets worse if someone somehow opens with Sol Ring andMana Crypt. In a free for all, at least, most people are probably going to try and gun down the guy with overwhelming resources, however. Sol Ring offers a strong, unpredictable advantage that anyone can reasonably start with, which is something Commander format seems to want to do. In this sense, it's fine to have, and an opponent starting with Sol Ring doesn't spell your doom, but it doesn't make staring down it any less pleasant.
The moxen won't come off the banlist anytime soon. They're pretty much free ramp spells that produce colored mana, not to mention the price tag on it.
I don't think that Sol Ring should be banned simply because it's played in almost every optimized commander deck. Command tower is played in almost every commander deck and no one's complaining about it. Sol Ring is simply a good card in commander, and so is command tower. Should both be banned because both are good cards in Commander and because they are staples in almost every commander deck? I don't think so.
Only if you don't know how to build a proper curve....
I think I found the Hearthstone player...
I've played maybe four games of that very basic TCG. It's.... not my style.
You can't possibly be serious. Your deck, sight unseen, needs colorless mana. It needs it enough to warrant running sol ring.
The only reasons not to run sol ring are:
1: You are deliberately powering down your deck
2: You are making a theme deck
3: You forgot sol ring is a card
The moxen won't come off the banlist anytime soon. They're pretty much free ramp spells that produce colored mana, not to mention the price tag on it.
I don't think that Sol Ring should be banned simply because it's played in almost every optimized commander deck. Command tower is played in almost every commander deck and no one's complaining about it. Sol Ring is simply a good card in commander, and so is command tower. Should both be banned because both are good cards in Commander and because they are staples in almost every commander deck? I don't think so.
I hope you aren't serious. There is a world of difference between Sol Ring and Command Tower. Tower's effect is shared by around 35 different cards. Ring's effect (early game extreme gas) is shared by 2 legal and 6 non-legal cards.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Moxen cause a "perceived" barrier to entry due to the combination of
1) Their iconic, immediately recognizable status as being extremely rare and valuable
2) Their sheer price
3) Their ubiquity
There is no card not on the banlist that meets all three of these criteria. Imperial Seal may be hugely expensive and ubiquitously good in black decks, but it lacks the "this card is vintage" status of 1. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is similarly expensive, but even less ubiquitous, and much less recognizable Mana Crypt is ubiquitous, but considerably cheaper and not immediately recognizable. Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad are arguably expensive enough and "vintage" enough to meet those criteria, but they're not ubiquitously strong.
They've also pretty clearly stated that they do not plan to add any cards under the "perceived barrier to entry" column.
As for centralizing, you are taking it just to mean highly played. Highly played is not the same thing as centralizing. For a good example, look at Legacy. Brainstorm has been the most highly-played card in the format for years and years. Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time come along, and although they are played considerably less than Brainstorm, they have a massively centralizing effect. Decks like Jund, Death and Taxes, and Elves can compete with blue decks packing Brainstorm and Force of Will, but they can't compete when those decks also can pack Cruise and/or Dig.
Primeval Titan is the perfect example of a centralizing card. The presence of this card in anyone's deck makes cards that are only "pretty good", like Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling, Bribery, and Natural Order become insane and gamebreaking. It devolves into whether you can GSZ for six before the blue player can Bribery you, because whoever has first Titan is off to the races. At that point, the only way to keep up is to drop as many Clone, Threaten, or kill + Reanimate effects as possible. Not only are players forced to massively adjust how they build their decks to play the Primetime Race, every game becomes focused on Primeval Titan.
Sol Ring does not such thing. Sure, everyone runs it. But how many cards do you run in your deck just to find yours or other's Sol Rings? How many cards do you run specifically to combat Sol Ring? How many times do you Acquire someone and grab their Ring? Do you find yourself Shattering someone's Ring so you can bring it back with Geth, Lord of the Vault a lot?
Sure, sometimes the first player with a Sol Ring will jet ahead of the rest, but often times he'll have no strong follow-up, or nothing that can't be erased by an early board clear.
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The moxen won't come off the banlist anytime soon. They're pretty much free ramp spells that produce colored mana, not to mention the price tag on it.
I don't think that Sol Ring should be banned simply because it's played in almost every optimized commander deck. Command tower is played in almost every commander deck and no one's complaining about it. Sol Ring is simply a good card in commander, and so is command tower. Should both be banned because both are good cards in Commander and because they are staples in almost every commander deck? I don't think so.
I hope you aren't serious. There is a world of difference between Sol Ring and Command Tower. Tower's effect is shared by around 35 different cards. Ring's effect (early game extreme gas) is shared by 2 legal and 6 non-legal cards.
But on the flipside, Sol Ring can benefit most if not all decks. Command Tower is only really useful in a multicolor deck, and provides no advantage to mono color.
Well I'd rather open with T1/T2-kill with Hermit Druid, Doomsday or some other wacky combo than with 4 mana on T2. Dude, if you assume that everyone's playing battle cruisers your arguments may have some validness. Other than that moxen are by far superior to Sol Ring when it comes to explosive starts. There shouldn't be even an argument about this.
As I said, the already too good decks would get better, but the RC has repeatedly said that's not a concern of theirs when it comes to managing the Ban List. They're never going to ban Hermit Druid because they don't care about trying to police the hyper competitive decks that consistently combo off before T4. Everyone else, on the other hand, would be only mildly affected by the unbanning of the Moxen. It turns out an extra mana here or there doesn't actually mean that much when people routinely cast 8+ mana spells. We already live in a world of big mana, one more can't hurt.
And btw you can just as well play your T1 signet from a mox..
Wasn't the point. All of the best ramp spells are colorless anyways, so that fact that Sol Ring makes 2 instead of colored mana is irrelevant. What is important is that it produces double what the Moxen do.
And now it's time for most of the rest of the P9 to follow Timetwister to the promised land.
Timetwister is nowhere near the other pieces of power.
There's a reason it's the only piece of "power" with a 3-digit pricetag (using NM Unlimited versions on SCG).
There's a reason that it's barely played in Vintage.
There's a reason that Library of Alexandria is frequently considered the 9th piece over Twister.
These are the same reasons this is legal in EDH when none of the other power is.
Primeval Titan is the perfect example of a centralizing card. The presence of this card in anyone's deck makes cards that are only "pretty good", like Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling, Bribery, and Natural Order become insane and gamebreaking. It devolves into whether you can GSZ for six before the blue player can Bribery you, because whoever has first Titan is off to the races. At that point, the only way to keep up is to drop as many Clone, Threaten, or kill + Reanimate effects as possible. Not only are players forced to massively adjust how they build their decks to play the Primetime Race, every game becomes focused on Primeval Titan.
Sol Ring does not such thing. Sure, everyone runs it. But how many cards do you run in your deck just to find yours or other's Sol Rings? How many cards do you run specifically to combat Sol Ring? How many times do you Acquire someone and grab their Ring? Do you find yourself Shattering someone's Ring so you can bring it back with Geth, Lord of the Vault a lot?
Sure, sometimes the first player with a Sol Ring will jet ahead of the rest, but often times he'll have no strong follow-up, or nothing that can't be erased by an early board clear.
There ARE no cards to specifically combat sol ring efficiently, you obviously won't put cards in your deck to specifically hate on sol ring, because they don't exist. You will run artifact destruction though and know you will always have something to destroy.
Bribery, Natural order, GSZ, and chord are not "ok" cards, they are almost as good as it gets for creature tutors. They aren't marginal in the slightest. bribery is ALREADY a game breaking play, because it usually means an ulamog hits the table on the 4th turn and takes someone out of the game on the 5th( assuming no haste )
Stop acting like Primeval's etb breaks the game. "Oh I'm two lands behind I can't win anymore" do you quit the game when your opponent casts explosive vegetation? Players already have to construct their decks with the knowledge that their opponent's are going to go big, primetime doesn't really change that, he was just the target of choice for these types of effects. We will always have them, right now it's prophet of kruphix and consecrated sphinx that everyone wants a copy of.
There ARE no cards to specifically combat sol ring efficiently, you obviously won't put cards in your deck to specifically hate on sol ring, because they don't exist. You will run artifact destruction though and know you will always have something to destroy.
Bribery, Natural order, GSZ, and chord are not "ok" cards, they are almost as good as it gets for creature tutors. They aren't marginal in the slightest. bribery is ALREADY a game breaking play, because it usually means an ulamog hits the table on the 4th turn and takes someone out of the game on the 5th( assuming no haste )
Stop acting like Primeval's etb breaks the game. "Oh I'm two lands behind I can't win anymore" do you quit the game when your opponent casts explosive vegetation?
Trinket Mage see occasional play, but Grasp I've only seen once in the past year, and it was used by a monoblack player to steal another black player's Coffers.
I've honestly seen Bribery not making the cut in a lot of decks without Primetime (or the extremely similar Sylvan Primordial). You can grab an Ulamog, but that's just one Swords to Plowshares away from nothing changing. Natural Order is a good game ender for grabbing Craterhoof, but a turn 3 NO isn't gamebreaking in the slightest these days, where it was basically GG with the Primes.
Also, Primetime =/= Explosive Veggies. The ability to grab most commonly Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers and effectively double your mana output on a permanent basis is insane. Assuming no other shenanigans, Bribery on Primetime for Coffurborg takes its owner from 5 mana to 11 mana on the next turn - and that's assuming you don't get a swing and don't even drop a land on that next turn. If you know you're getting a swing and grab Deserted Temple on the ETB and Urborg on the swing (or there's an Urborg in play already), you've jumped to 11 lands and are tapping for 25+ mana.
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Only if you don't know how to build a proper curve....
I think I found the Hearthstone player...
I've played maybe four games of that very basic TCG. It's.... not my style.
You can't possibly be serious. Your deck, sight unseen, needs colorless mana. It needs it enough to warrant running sol ring.
The only reasons not to run sol ring are:
1: You are deliberately powering down your deck
2: You are making a theme deck
3: You forgot sol ring is a card
Actually, my deck doesn't really need colorless mana. Almost all of my cards in it are 1xx or less (I have 4 cards that are in the 4 range), so Sol Ring just simply doesn't do enough.
What any actual high powered deck needs is to hit it's colors as fast as possible in order to have Hymn to tourach, Mana Drain (Still need one....) and Vindicate asap.
Moxen allow me to do that. Signets allow me to do that. Sol Ring does not.
There are only two reasons I often try to fit Sol Ring into my Zur deck;
1: I need an extra Artifact to ensure Mox Opal gets turned on.
2: I want someone to stupidly remove Sol Ring instead of something of more value.
And honestly, both of those reasons often get trumped by running another answer.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
There ARE no cards to specifically combat sol ring efficiently, you obviously won't put cards in your deck to specifically hate on sol ring, because they don't exist. You will run artifact destruction though and know you will always have something to destroy.
Bribery, Natural order, GSZ, and chord are not "ok" cards, they are almost as good as it gets for creature tutors. They aren't marginal in the slightest. bribery is ALREADY a game breaking play, because it usually means an ulamog hits the table on the 4th turn and takes someone out of the game on the 5th( assuming no haste )
Stop acting like Primeval's etb breaks the game. "Oh I'm two lands behind I can't win anymore" do you quit the game when your opponent casts explosive vegetation?
Trinket Mage see occasional play, but Grasp I've only seen once in the past year, and it was used by a monoblack player to steal another black player's Coffers.
I've honestly seen Bribery not making the cut in a lot of decks without Primetime (or the extremely similar Sylvan Primordial). You can grab an Ulamog, but that's just one Swords to Plowshares away from nothing changing. Natural Order is a good game ender for grabbing Craterhoof, but a turn 3 NO isn't gamebreaking in the slightest these days, where it was basically GG with the Primes.
Also, Primetime =/= Explosive Veggies. The ability to grab most commonly Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers and effectively double your mana output on a permanent basis is insane. Assuming no other shenanigans, Bribery on Primetime for Coffurborg takes its owner from 5 mana to 11 mana on the next turn - and that's assuming you don't get a swing and don't even drop a land on that next turn. If you know you're getting a swing and grab Deserted Temple on the ETB and Urborg on the swing (or there's an Urborg in play already), you've jumped to 11 lands and are tapping for 25+ mana.
Yes, primeval can do strong things, so can tons of cards in the higher mana ranges. It's still so much worse than sol ring it's a bit embarrassing. Even if primeval was legal right now, it would still be substantially worse than several cards that are currently legal, like demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, survival of the fittest, heck, even in the 6 drop creature spot, prossh, skyraider of kher will outright win the game with many board states.
Also, don't act like an early ulamog is easy to answer. It's bloody indestructible, haste and untargetable equipment is extremely common, and this is 100 card singleton.
It's a case of lack of threat diversity. People seem fine with the same broken as hell utility cards every game, but if the threats are the same then everyone loses their mind.
Actually, my deck doesn't really need colorless mana. Almost all of my cards in it are 1 xx or less (I have 4 cards that are in the 4 range), so Sol Ring just simply doesn't do enough.
What any actual high powered deck needs is to hit it's colors as fast as possible in order to have Hymn to tourach, Mana Drain (Still need one....) and Vindicate asap.
Moxen allow me to do that. Signets allow me to do that. Sol Ring does not.
There are only two reasons I often try to fit Sol Ring into my Zur deck;
1: I need an extra Artifact to ensure Mox Opal gets turned on.
2: I want someone to stupidly remove Sol Ring instead of something of more value.
And honestly, both of those reasons often get trumped by running another answer.
Sol ring will STILL let you cast 1xx cards faster than a signet would.
You hugely over-rate hymn to tourach if you cut sol ring for it, especially in a multiplayer game. If you are playing 1v1, sol ring is just outright banned so the discussion is irrelevant.
Yes, primeval can do strong things, so can tons of cards in the higher mana ranges. It's still so much worse than sol ring it's a bit embarrassing. Even if primeval was legal right now, it would still be substantially worse than several cards that are currently legal, like demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, survival of the fittest, heck, even in the 6 drop creature spot, prossh, skyraider of kher will outright win the game with many board states.
Also, don't act like an early ulamog is easy to answer. It's bloody indestructible, haste and untargetable equipment is extremely common, and this is 100 card singleton.
It's a case of lack of threat diversity. People seem fine with the same broken as hell utility cards every game, but if the threats are the same then everyone loses their mind.
Did you play when Primeval Titan was legal? Or when Sylvan Primordial was legal? They were absolutely, 100% game-centralizing. If you weren't cheating out, cloning, flickering, reanimating, or stealing Primes, you might as well just scoop.
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Actually, my deck doesn't really need colorless mana. Almost all of my cards in it are 1 xx or less (I have 4 cards that are in the 4 range), so Sol Ring just simply doesn't do enough.
What any actual high powered deck needs is to hit it's colors as fast as possible in order to have Hymn to tourach, Mana Drain (Still need one....) and Vindicate asap.
Moxen allow me to do that. Signets allow me to do that. Sol Ring does not.
There are only two reasons I often try to fit Sol Ring into my Zur deck;
1: I need an extra Artifact to ensure Mox Opal gets turned on.
2: I want someone to stupidly remove Sol Ring instead of something of more value.
And honestly, both of those reasons often get trumped by running another answer.
Sol ring will STILL let you cast 1xx cards faster than a signet would.
You hugely over-rate hymn to tourach if you cut sol ring for it, especially in a multiplayer game. If you are playing 1v1, sol ring is just outright banned so the discussion is irrelevant.
Wrong. A Sol Ring will let me cast certain kinds of 1xx cards. A Signet will open up all of them, depending on lands.
Furthermore, because a Signet doesn't eat up my first turn (unless I mox my way into it, which often leads to a T2 Zur the Enchanter, or a sometimes more powerful Luminarch Ascension on T1 skipping the signet all together ) I have a Hallowed Fountain untapped for a Swansong or a Path to Exile (for something like a Serra Ascendant or other early game nonsense).
And actually, I cut Sol Ring for Maze of Ith initially.
I want you to explain to me why you feel Sol Ring is the be-all-end-all of Commander. Why is it overpowered? Why is it broken?
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Moxen, LoA, etc destroyed EDH for the group. Understand, this was during the time that Fastbond, Channel, Tolarian Academy, etc were played. It was not a good idea, and it is still a bad idea.
Whomever stated the idea Black Lotus is better than Sol Ring in EDH, you are wrong. It is powerful, though. It used to allow turn one Black Braids/Rofellos which were the top generals during those years; yet, it also allowed wins because 3+ mana on a turn is enough of a leap to steal or seal a game. Sol Ring does not produce enough mana, color mana and costs 1 CMC which prevents it from doing what BL does. With that stated, it is not a good idea to unban it.
As for the argument about Moxen equal, better than, less than Sol Ring, it can be argued for years. My friend, brother and I firmly believe the Moxen are better. Our group most probably agrees; yet, a case for both can be made. Run all, it makes turn 1-3 plays and wins vastly more consistent.
Keep brewing.
I'm pretty sure that's the point trying to be made. The vast, vast, vast majority of EDH decks aren't turn 2 combo decks. And that's because the majority of players don't want to play with or against decks like that. It's not even a budget thing, you can throw together a competent enough Doomsday or Ad Nauseam list to steamroll battle cruiser decks while barely cracking the triple digits. If everyone is playing 100 card singleton vintage, than the moxen or Black Lotus are absolutely more powerful than Sol Ring, but that doesn't matter if that's not what people are playing. In the global EDH community, most decks are big mana timmy decks simply because it's what people choose to play, and in decks like those, replacing Sol Ring with a mox or Black Lotus would be a worse replacement.
Like, what's stronger in the most powerful decks: Hermit Druid or Tooth and Nail? Hermit Druid absolutely. Which of those cards causes problems for more play groups in this format? Undoubtedly Tooth and Nail. You need context before trying to pin down a problem.
Moxes would ruin the format if globally allowed, but if you happen to have a group that's OK with them and can self-police a bit then they're not going to be a major problem.
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Only if you don't know how to build a proper curve....
I guess it's possible to make a mistake and forget to include sol ring
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I think I found the Hearthstone player...
Or you know, you just kinda don't need colorless mana.
Sol Ring does nothing if you need to Hymn To Turroc one player and Silence the other.
I've played maybe four games of that very basic TCG. It's.... not my style.
hypocrisy: "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform."
The rules committee claims that the moxen cause a "barrier to entry". But other cards not on the list prove that argument false.
The rules committee claims that they ban cards that become format centralizing. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/204274-statistical-breakdown-of-the-commander-metagame this thread shows that Sol Ring is used in 1,586 decks here on the site, more than twice as much as any other card.
So no, I'm using that word correctly, mon ami.
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RWU Zedruu the Greathearted
I don't think that Sol Ring should be banned simply because it's played in almost every optimized commander deck. Command tower is played in almost every commander deck and no one's complaining about it. Sol Ring is simply a good card in commander, and so is command tower. Should both be banned because both are good cards in Commander and because they are staples in almost every commander deck? I don't think so.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
You can't possibly be serious. Your deck, sight unseen, needs colorless mana. It needs it enough to warrant running sol ring.
The only reasons not to run sol ring are:
1: You are deliberately powering down your deck
2: You are making a theme deck
3: You forgot sol ring is a card
I hope you aren't serious. There is a world of difference between Sol Ring and Command Tower. Tower's effect is shared by around 35 different cards. Ring's effect (early game extreme gas) is shared by 2 legal and 6 non-legal cards.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
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StaffMoxen cause a "perceived" barrier to entry due to the combination of
1) Their iconic, immediately recognizable status as being extremely rare and valuable
2) Their sheer price
3) Their ubiquity
There is no card not on the banlist that meets all three of these criteria.
Imperial Seal may be hugely expensive and ubiquitously good in black decks, but it lacks the "this card is vintage" status of 1.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is similarly expensive, but even less ubiquitous, and much less recognizable
Mana Crypt is ubiquitous, but considerably cheaper and not immediately recognizable.
Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad are arguably expensive enough and "vintage" enough to meet those criteria, but they're not ubiquitously strong.
They've also pretty clearly stated that they do not plan to add any cards under the "perceived barrier to entry" column.
As for centralizing, you are taking it just to mean highly played. Highly played is not the same thing as centralizing. For a good example, look at Legacy. Brainstorm has been the most highly-played card in the format for years and years. Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time come along, and although they are played considerably less than Brainstorm, they have a massively centralizing effect. Decks like Jund, Death and Taxes, and Elves can compete with blue decks packing Brainstorm and Force of Will, but they can't compete when those decks also can pack Cruise and/or Dig.
Primeval Titan is the perfect example of a centralizing card. The presence of this card in anyone's deck makes cards that are only "pretty good", like Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling, Bribery, and Natural Order become insane and gamebreaking. It devolves into whether you can GSZ for six before the blue player can Bribery you, because whoever has first Titan is off to the races. At that point, the only way to keep up is to drop as many Clone, Threaten, or kill + Reanimate effects as possible. Not only are players forced to massively adjust how they build their decks to play the Primetime Race, every game becomes focused on Primeval Titan.
Sol Ring does not such thing. Sure, everyone runs it. But how many cards do you run in your deck just to find yours or other's Sol Rings? How many cards do you run specifically to combat Sol Ring? How many times do you Acquire someone and grab their Ring? Do you find yourself Shattering someone's Ring so you can bring it back with Geth, Lord of the Vault a lot?
Sure, sometimes the first player with a Sol Ring will jet ahead of the rest, but often times he'll have no strong follow-up, or nothing that can't be erased by an early board clear.
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But on the flipside, Sol Ring can benefit most if not all decks. Command Tower is only really useful in a multicolor deck, and provides no advantage to mono color.
U Memnarch
RWU Zedruu the Greathearted
Wasn't the point. All of the best ramp spells are colorless anyways, so that fact that Sol Ring makes 2 instead of colored mana is irrelevant. What is important is that it produces double what the Moxen do.
And now it's time for most of the rest of the P9 to follow Timetwister to the promised land.
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StaffTimetwister is nowhere near the other pieces of power.
There's a reason it's the only piece of "power" with a 3-digit pricetag (using NM Unlimited versions on SCG).
There's a reason that it's barely played in Vintage.
There's a reason that Library of Alexandria is frequently considered the 9th piece over Twister.
These are the same reasons this is legal in EDH when none of the other power is.
The card is basically a glorified Wheel of Fortune.
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This whole thing is wrong.
People do run things specifically to get sol ring, like trinket mage and often enough praetor's grasp.
There ARE no cards to specifically combat sol ring efficiently, you obviously won't put cards in your deck to specifically hate on sol ring, because they don't exist. You will run artifact destruction though and know you will always have something to destroy.
Bribery, Natural order, GSZ, and chord are not "ok" cards, they are almost as good as it gets for creature tutors. They aren't marginal in the slightest. bribery is ALREADY a game breaking play, because it usually means an ulamog hits the table on the 4th turn and takes someone out of the game on the 5th( assuming no haste )
Stop acting like Primeval's etb breaks the game. "Oh I'm two lands behind I can't win anymore" do you quit the game when your opponent casts explosive vegetation? Players already have to construct their decks with the knowledge that their opponent's are going to go big, primetime doesn't really change that, he was just the target of choice for these types of effects. We will always have them, right now it's prophet of kruphix and consecrated sphinx that everyone wants a copy of.
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StaffTrinket Mage see occasional play, but Grasp I've only seen once in the past year, and it was used by a monoblack player to steal another black player's Coffers.
I've honestly seen Bribery not making the cut in a lot of decks without Primetime (or the extremely similar Sylvan Primordial). You can grab an Ulamog, but that's just one Swords to Plowshares away from nothing changing. Natural Order is a good game ender for grabbing Craterhoof, but a turn 3 NO isn't gamebreaking in the slightest these days, where it was basically GG with the Primes.
Also, Primetime =/= Explosive Veggies. The ability to grab most commonly Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers and effectively double your mana output on a permanent basis is insane. Assuming no other shenanigans, Bribery on Primetime for Coffurborg takes its owner from 5 mana to 11 mana on the next turn - and that's assuming you don't get a swing and don't even drop a land on that next turn. If you know you're getting a swing and grab Deserted Temple on the ETB and Urborg on the swing (or there's an Urborg in play already), you've jumped to 11 lands and are tapping for 25+ mana.
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Actually, my deck doesn't really need colorless mana. Almost all of my cards in it are 1 xx or less (I have 4 cards that are in the 4 range), so Sol Ring just simply doesn't do enough.
What any actual high powered deck needs is to hit it's colors as fast as possible in order to have Hymn to tourach, Mana Drain (Still need one....) and Vindicate asap.
Moxen allow me to do that. Signets allow me to do that. Sol Ring does not.
There are only two reasons I often try to fit Sol Ring into my Zur deck;
1: I need an extra Artifact to ensure Mox Opal gets turned on.
2: I want someone to stupidly remove Sol Ring instead of something of more value.
And honestly, both of those reasons often get trumped by running another answer.
Yes, primeval can do strong things, so can tons of cards in the higher mana ranges. It's still so much worse than sol ring it's a bit embarrassing. Even if primeval was legal right now, it would still be substantially worse than several cards that are currently legal, like demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, survival of the fittest, heck, even in the 6 drop creature spot, prossh, skyraider of kher will outright win the game with many board states.
Also, don't act like an early ulamog is easy to answer. It's bloody indestructible, haste and untargetable equipment is extremely common, and this is 100 card singleton.
It's a case of lack of threat diversity. People seem fine with the same broken as hell utility cards every game, but if the threats are the same then everyone loses their mind.
Sol ring will STILL let you cast 1xx cards faster than a signet would.
You hugely over-rate hymn to tourach if you cut sol ring for it, especially in a multiplayer game. If you are playing 1v1, sol ring is just outright banned so the discussion is irrelevant.
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StaffDid you play when Primeval Titan was legal? Or when Sylvan Primordial was legal? They were absolutely, 100% game-centralizing. If you weren't cheating out, cloning, flickering, reanimating, or stealing Primes, you might as well just scoop.
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Wrong. A Sol Ring will let me cast certain kinds of 1xx cards. A Signet will open up all of them, depending on lands.
A hand of Sol Ring, Hallowed Fountain and Sunken Ruins let's me play any of them with a UU and a BB cost. A Orzhov Signet, Hallowed Fountain, and Sunken Ruins opens up UU, BB, and WW.
Furthermore, because a Signet doesn't eat up my first turn (unless I mox my way into it, which often leads to a T2 Zur the Enchanter, or a sometimes more powerful Luminarch Ascension on T1 skipping the signet all together ) I have a Hallowed Fountain untapped for a Swansong or a Path to Exile (for something like a Serra Ascendant or other early game nonsense).
And actually, I cut Sol Ring for Maze of Ith initially.
I want you to explain to me why you feel Sol Ring is the be-all-end-all of Commander. Why is it overpowered? Why is it broken?