MTG Salvation

Quote from TempestShadow »

Because while sol ring is undeniably strong, it doesn't fundamentally change the board state if played on any other turn than 1 or 2. It's not like Primeval Titan where the game became who can abuse the Titan best (clones, reanimating etc.).

Best example I can say is you don't have anyone jamming Sculpting Steels or Copy Artifacts into completely unrelated lists just to copy sol rings but people did go out of their way to do so with Prime Time
Edited cause I can't English apparently.

Not true. Sol Ring has blown me out late in games many times. One time, I had a Storm Herd pegasus army and Druid's Repository and The Great Aurora in hand, and the only person left to stop me on their turn is the colorless player with 6 mana. Then he goes land, sol ring, ugin. On more than 1 occassion, Sol Ring has allowed a Nekusar deck to kill me with a wheel drawn off another wheel. I always watch closely when Sol Ring is the ritual that lets someone get exactly the mana they need to the point where my friends doing it start saying "oh god, it happened again" in advance. Sol Ring fundamentally changes the board on any turn it's played because you immediately have more mana than you would otherwise.

Hello, been a while.
On the topic of Sol Ring: I feel like Sol Ring is a necessary evil for decks that cannot ramp fast so that one can make big plays without having to run too many mana rocks and the like. Yes Sol ring is good at any stage of the game; but in the end, EDH is a social format, not one that is meant to be completely balanced. By banning Sol Ring, you force decks that can't ramp to run more mana rocks, thus forcing their decks to be sub-optimal and maybe not on par with decks that ramp super fast(cough Omnath).
I can't really say anything about prophet, but I feel like it's fine. Staples aren't necessarily a bad thing, and not everyone wants to copy a Prophet. It's rare for me to want to clone a prophet, unless it's dropped turn 3/4, and even then it's sub-optimal turn 3 and 4 play because you don't have enough gas for your big plays yet(although flashing in your commander is always fun).

Quote from tstorm823 »

Not true. Sol Ring has blown me out late in games many times. One time, I had a Storm Herd pegasus army and Druid's Repository and The Great Aurora in hand, and the only person left to stop me on their turn is the colorless player with 6 mana. Then he goes land, sol ring, ugin.

But... that could have been any mana rock that produces more than it costs. Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith, Mox Diamond... Even an Ashnod's Altar or Mox Opal could do the trick under the right conditions. All are perfectly legal in Commander and just about the only one I see complained about is Mana Crypt, and that's just because of the "percieved barrier to entry" issue.

Using your example to argue for a Sol Ring ban sets a bad precedent. Are we to assume that all mana rocks that produce more than they cost should be considered for a ban? You lost your army because of a good draw on his part. It happens. He could have played a land and then cast All is Dust with the same result.

Quote from umtiger »

Not even close to "centralizing." First of all, Prophet of Kruphix is not a universal clone/reanimation target (like Prime-Time and Primordial)...

Then we don't see the same games with PoK, and apparently not the same as people posting here. That can be true, but would obvioulsy skew thoughts on centralizing.

You're maybe taking deck-building choices to be the same as "purposefully changing" a deck? A red player adding bolt is hardly changing a deck. But when I suggest Lightning Bolt to people who complain about Prophet, all I get in return are scoffs ("It's not enough value"). It's the same scoffs I got in 2011 when I played Flying Men with Edric. You cannot just play your deck. You have to account for what others play as well.

Lightning bolt isnt good in EDH generally, neither are flying men. Sure there are specific instances they are, but 1 for 1 removal that does not deal with most threats is bad. Adding it to combat PoK is centralizing.

If a player is not willing to play more removal to compensate for...

'Play more removal'? It's 2015, come up with a REAL argument. People play removal they don't always HAVE removal.

If all players are actively using their turns to interact and produce pressure, there wouldn't be so much noise about Prophet. And if a player uses Prophet of Kruphix to win, so what? Something is going to win a game. Players who take long turns with Prophet probably take long turns without Prophet. Once again, there was the exact same thing going on with Seedborn Muse a few years ago.

Demonstrably false. Find any amount of discussion on Seedborne and it dies in 3 or 4 posts. This is PAGES of real issues. That does not mean it needs to be banned, but at least be honest about what was said.

I think Lightning Bolt is pretty good in EDH. There are so many utility creatures, PoK visibly among them, that are allowed to stick because people are reluctant to use their unconditional removal on it. There are limits on Negate too, but many people still run it. Cheap, instant removal is often valuable and it is hands down one of the best red cards ever printed and I think that transcends to this format as well. Dies to LB should be a concern since so much of EDH is a value game now. Next time you sit down, take a look at all the creatures where having a bolt in hand would have been nice and I think you'll see that players generally undervalue it.

PoK is a more recent card in more prevalent "power colors" than Seedborn. I think the two are very close power-wise, but PoK is the current object of ire, not Seedborn. You can't just dismiss the comparison because people want to talk more about one of them when there are apparent reasons for that that aren't power level related.

The argument shouldn't be that people need more removal, it should be that some cards demand to be removed and that's okay. If you don't remove these cards, you will lose the game. That's the nature of Magic. Sometimes players don't have an answer and they have the possibility to lose when that happens.

tstorm, your argument was super fallacious, especially since it could have been any mana rock played on previous turns as well, not even one that produces more than it costs. An argument that it was used sometime turn 6 or later to cast an 8+ cost card is not one that is particularly convincing as a reason it should be banned seeing as most other mana rocks would have accomplished the same end. I'd also hardly call that being "blown out". You'd played an 8 drop spell that relies on waiting a turn to get to combat in order to win and is historically weak to a board wipe. He got the board wipe, nothing much you can do about it. Had he not been able to answer it and complained about the card, I'm sure you would have told him to run more board wipes, but since your card got beaten by his, better blame Sol Ring. It's just like with social justice warriors, anything to "fit" the narrative.

The reason I argue that we move on to different arguments/topics isn't that people don't have valid things to say, it's that the RC is already certainly aware of all of them, since there aren't really new points that have come to light in the past 3 or so years the card has been out. I feel like everything has been sussed out the best it can be, all relevant points have been made, each a dozen times over, and now we're just going through an exercise in rhetoric by repeating ourselves to people that are clearly not going to change their mind about a card. Continuing to discuss PoK's banning or not banning under the guise of "the RC must be informed!" is nothing more than looking for license that repeating yourself for the umpteenth time is totally okay because the RC needs to see it again. I promise you they're aware of everything we've discussed about the card and will make their decision on it. If your problem is that you feel they don't represent you, that is something different entirely, but the matter is out of our hands at this point; I'd prefer to discuss other things.

What are the challenges of having a banned as a commander list? It's been firmly said it is never coming back, but I'd like to know why. I don't really buy the whole simplicity thing since it's a simple concept and, by the RC's own admissions, Commanders receive special considerations and are treated differently than other cards in this format. Why should a separate ban list just for commanders not also provide them with that consideration?

I think I've gotten to the point that I don't mind Sol Ring, because every group I've played in over the last year doesn't mind Sol Ring, but greatly dislike Armageddon. There are three ways to keep ramp decks in check
A) Lando them
B) Stax them
C) Ramp with mana rocks to keep up.

The last option is definitely the most friendly one in groups.

Quote from Mercury01 »

But... that could have been any mana rock that produces more than it costs. Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith, Mox Diamond... Even an Ashnod's Altar or Mox Opal could do the trick under the right conditions. All are perfectly legal in Commander and just about the only one I see complained about is Mana Crypt, and that's just because of the "percieved barrier to entry" issue.

Using your example to argue for a Sol Ring ban sets a bad precedent. Are we to assume that all mana rocks that produce more than they cost should be considered for a ban? You lost your army because of a good draw on his part. It happens. He could have played a land and then cast All is Dust with the same result.

I agree that using that example to argue for a Sol Ring ban sets a bad precedent, but I wasn't arguing that Sol Ring should be banned just because it's a mana ritual later. I was arguing against the idea that it's not a problem because it's not impactful after the first few turns. It definitely has impact at nearly any point in the game.

Sol Ring shouldn't be banned just because of one blowout here or there. Sol Ring should be banned because it goes beyond centralizing the format; it defines the format. It's in the vast majority of decks and has monumental impact on how they play. SoulBanana up in post 28217 treats it like the great ramp equalizer, and in a certain way it is. Any given game, any deck can get a major mana head start because the vast majority of decks are playing Sol Ring. In any other format, slow decks try to rein in fast decks. In EDH slow deck spend like 30% effort reining in fast decks and the rest of the effort is spent keeping up because every deck is a ramp deck. Cards that cost 4 or 5 are a big deal compared to 2 and 3 because you can effectively skip those turns. Cards with heavy color requirement are ignored because they effectively play like Serra Avenger when compared to things that have 2 colorless in their cost. The stupid card drives the pace of the format because it's grossly powerful and omnipresent, and the only way to consistently beat that pace is to play hyper-competitive decks which most players don't want to do. Half the appeal of the format is the long screwy games with big splashy plays, and Sol Ring takes the long part away and makes the splash feel a lot less special.

Commander is Legendary Creature+ Sol Ring+98 cards

Quote from RivenVII »

tstorm, your argument was super fallacious, especially since it could have been any mana rock played on previous turns as well, not even one that produces more than it costs. An argument that it was used sometime turn 6 or later to cast an 8+ cost card is not one that is particularly convincing as a reason it should be banned seeing as most other mana rocks would have accomplished the same end. I'd also hardly call that being "blown out". You'd played an 8 drop spell that relies on waiting a turn to get to combat in order to win and is historically weak to a board wipe. He got the board wipe, nothing much you can do about it. Had he not been able to answer it and complained about the card, I'm sure you would have told him to run more board wipes, but since your card got beaten by his, better blame Sol Ring. It's just like with social justice warriors, anything to "fit" the narrative.

Woah, woah, woah. Slow down...

Storm Herd is a 10 drop.

Quote from RivenVII »

I think Lightning Bolt is pretty good in EDH. There are so many utility creatures, PoK visibly among them, that are allowed to stick because people are reluctant to use their unconditional removal on it. There are limits on Negate too, but many people still run it. Cheap, instant removal is often valuable and it is hands down one of the best red cards ever printed and I think that transcends to this format as well. Dies to LB should be a concern since so much of EDH is a value game now. Next time you sit down, take a look at all the creatures where having a bolt in hand would have been nice and I think you'll see that players generally undervalue it.

PoK is a more recent card in more prevalent "power colors" than Seedborn. I think the two are very close power-wise, but PoK is the current object of ire, not Seedborn. You can't just dismiss the comparison because people want to talk more about one of them when there are apparent reasons for that that aren't power level related.

The argument shouldn't be that people need more removal, it should be that some cards demand to be removed and that's okay. If you don't remove these cards, you will lose the game. That's the nature of Magic. Sometimes players don't have an answer and they have the possibility to lose when that happens.

tstorm, your argument was super fallacious, especially since it could have been any mana rock played on previous turns as well, not even one that produces more than it costs. An argument that it was used sometime turn 6 or later to cast an 8+ cost card is not one that is particularly convincing as a reason it should be banned seeing as most other mana rocks would have accomplished the same end. I'd also hardly call that being "blown out". You'd played an 8 drop spell that relies on waiting a turn to get to combat in order to win and is historically weak to a board wipe. He got the board wipe, nothing much you can do about it. Had he not been able to answer it and complained about the card, I'm sure you would have told him to run more board wipes, but since your card got beaten by his, better blame Sol Ring. It's just like with social justice warriors, anything to "fit" the narrative.

The reason I argue that we move on to different arguments/topics isn't that people don't have valid things to say, it's that the RC is already certainly aware of all of them, since there aren't really new points that have come to light in the past 3 or so years the card has been out. I feel like everything has been sussed out the best it can be, all relevant points have been made, each a dozen times over, and now we're just going through an exercise in rhetoric by repeating ourselves to people that are clearly not going to change their mind about a card. Continuing to discuss PoK's banning or not banning under the guise of "the RC must be informed!" is nothing more than looking for license that repeating yourself for the umpteenth time is totally okay because the RC needs to see it again. I promise you they're aware of everything we've discussed about the card and will make their decision on it. If your problem is that you feel they don't represent you, that is something different entirely, but the matter is out of our hands at this point; I'd prefer to discuss other things.

What are the challenges of having a banned as a commander list? It's been firmly said it is never coming back, but I'd like to know why. I don't really buy the whole simplicity thing since it's a simple concept and, by the RC's own admissions, Commanders receive special considerations and are treated differently than other cards in this format. Why should a separate ban list just for commanders not also provide them with that consideration?

Followed you until you brought up "social justice warriors". As a Social Justice Warrior myself, (Social Justice Mage if you must know), understand that using that boogeyman doesn't help anyone.

Quote from Mercury01 »

Using your example to argue for a Sol Ring ban sets a bad precedent. Are we to assume that all mana rocks that produce more than they cost should be considered for a ban?

No, just Sol Ring (and Mana Crypt to a lesser degree) because their fail state is ritual and their best case scenarios involve catapulting you ahead multiple turns right at the beginning of the game. Sol Ring is Power 10 but we just sort of allow it for no reason.

The real question isn't "Can we please ban Sol Ring?" because the RC has already grandfathered it in as a core part of the format despite it's ridiculous power; the question now is "Can we please unban the Moxen?". They're just Sol Rings. If we're already playing with one of the cycle we might as well play with all of them.

Oh god, DON'T EVER UNBAN THE MOXEN, please. If you want a format where the haves trump the havenots even harder, then yes, go ahead. But dear god please don't unban those...just look at the Moxen's current prices. Now imagine if there's actual demand for them. No way. Nuhuh. Nope. Please.
Also I really don't think "Well broken piece A is legal, why not broken pieces C, D, E, F and G?" is a good argument.

The moxen should be unbanned, but first there should be a huge print run of gold bordered commander cards including all the reserved list cards that are good in the format.

Outside an artifact reanimation package, Black Lotus is a lot worse than Mana Crypt. A zero mana ritual is really strong, but a 0 mana effect that gives you one less on every turn past that one with a very small drawback is a LOT stronger. Barrier to entry means nothing when Crypt costs $150 itself. Barrier is a bullcrap argument anyway as long as Tabernacle ($800), Chains ($400) and Candelabra ($340) are cards in highly tuned EDH decks.

Either unban the weaker stuff, or ban the stronger stuff, otherwise the entire banlist is hypocritical.

You can take my Sol Rings when you pry them out of my cold, dead hands...

But seriously, commander is the only format I get to play with the damn things. They're almost unplayable in the only other format they're legal in(for reals, workshop lists run them but that's really it) and it's not like my collection is good enough for vintage anyways(I do own two workshops but no other power). Commander is my only viable option.

As for another fruitless discussion - how does everyone feel about Libraries? I know they run against the "perceived barrier to entry", and they'd be an autoinclude in anything 2 coloured or less(and possibly 3 colour or less), but really is it that powerful in a singleton 99 card format? Sure the price would rocket up but they'd probably settle at tabernacle levels anyways and those are legal. Any thoughts?

Quote from Impossible »

The real question isn't "Can we please ban Sol Ring?" because the RC has already grandfathered it in as a core part of the format despite it's ridiculous power; the question now is "Can we please unban the Moxen?". They're just Sol Rings. If we're already playing with one of the cycle we might as well play with all of them.

Worst suggestion of the year? WORST suggestion of the year.

Quote from Teysa_Karlov »

Either unban the weaker stuff, or ban the stronger stuff, otherwise the entire banlist is hypocritical.

'You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means'.

Quote from superpositioned »

But seriously, commander is the only format I get to play with the damn things.

And that's because they make the game bad.

Quote from LouCypher »

Oh god, DON'T EVER UNBAN THE MOXEN, please. If you want a format where the haves trump the havenots even harder, then yes, go ahead. But dear god please don't unban those...just look at the Moxen's current prices. Now imagine if there's actual demand for them. No way. Nuhuh. Nope. Please.
Also I really don't think "Well broken piece A is legal, why not broken pieces C, D, E, F and G?" is a good argument.

Ignoring the obvious price problem, I don't see the difference between Sol Ring and the Moxen. If we're going to just accept that EDH is a "battlecruiser" format that makes Sol Ring acceptable, the Moxen are... probably significantly weaker than Sol Ring. There's no reason for them to stay banned for power level reasons. You can make an argument about haves and have-nots, but honestly... smoke 'em if you got 'em. If you own Power, EDH is the one format that should allow that. We already allow gratuitously expensive cards like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Imperial Seal, so why not Power?

Because power broken mana rocks make new people not want to play? You don't need Imp Seal or Tabernacle to keep up. You would need moxen to keep up, as you know ZER0 drops.

Quote from umfta »

As it comes to moxen, comparing them to Sol Ring is imo just plain wrong. Colored mana acceleration is way different than colorless which why Mana Crypt is much more broken than Sol Ring. T1 Sol Ring = two colorless mana vs. T1 Mana Crypt = 1 colored + 2 colorless mana vs. T1 Mox = 2 colored mana. So closer comparison is indeed Mana Crypt which I find very questionable not being banned already (price barrier too). Big problem with moxen is that there is five of them which would mean five autoincludes per deck more which is indeed quite silly.

Hardly. What exactly do you need double colored mana for on T1 in EDH? Because short of combo godhands, I'd rather untap with 4 mana on T2 thanks to Sol Ring than basically any other start. Unbanning the Moxen makes the already too-good decks better and the remaining 95% of decks about the same. Oh no, you cast Rampant Growth on T1 with a Moxen... I cast Sol Ring into Signet. Face it; the Moxen simply aren't as good as Sol Ring for powering explosive starts. The vast majority of decks don't require that many colored pips, making the already legal Sol Ring the go-to choice anyways.

Quote from umfta »

But to be realistic, I don't see why we would be discussing about unbanning moxen. It's not going to happen.

It won't happen with that attitude. People just assume they should be perma-banned because there's a mystique surrounding the Power 9, but honestly in EDH they're simply not as good as what we already have. Black Lotus? Timetwister? Whoopity-doo. Would you be upset if someone cast a Timetwister in one of your games? Because I wouldn't. Lotus? Go right ahead it's probably going to end up being a slightly better Dark Ritual anyways. These cards were banned because of 60 card, non-singleton constructed formats. It's time to admit that EDH is an entirely different beast, and that having a single extra mana, or a free ritual occasionally is no more game-breaking than Sol Ring already is.

To be honest, the only P9 I wouldn't want to see on a regular basis would be Time Walk simply because of the ease with which it can be used to loop infinite turns.

I don't think a player playing a single moxen is a problem. Sy someone playing a ruby in there mono red deck; but part of the problem with moxen is that they have color identity. You just can't jam an emerald in your Dimir deck like you can in vintage.

Players who own moxen and want to play them are incentivized into playing 3 or 5 color decks to maximize the number they can play and when you're playing 3-5 free lands, then you can get some crazy broken starts that just screams "to much mana to quickly". Imagine shuffling up for a game of EDH only to have your opponent drop some moxen into turn 1 Kaalia or Rafiq. You may have kept a hand with 2 cost removal and still be out of the game before you can cast it.

Obviously, those sorts of crazy starts would be pretty rare. But just having 2+ moxen in your hand is certainly easier to pull off then the old boodyman of metalworker, into 5-6 artifacts into, game ender.

I think if you want to talk about unbanning Moxen, the correct strategy is not to just jump to unban all 5 of them; but let's take it one at a time. I can see an argument being made to unban Mox Pearl or Mox Ruby, while leaving the other 3 banned due to those colors being perceived as considerably weaker then green, black, and blue by even the RC.

You could argue that white and red are just plain weaker because they lack both ramp and draw, so they are limited to using rocks or hitting their land drops to get mana, which lack of draw means they have a harder time doing.

Unbanning a single mox or even two moxen doesn't really help the thousands of players with mono white decks at all, simply because the vast majority of them will never be able or willing to purchase one.

Obviously Library should be unbanned because it will make casking new Kozi easier without having to resort to using the Rule 4 loophole.

I'm not very helpful.