Not looking forward to the unbanning of Protean Hulk, unless there are more library searching hosers available. There is just too much power packaged in this beast.
An Abzan.deck with correct deck planning, is able to get almost the entire deck's creatures out with just 1 creature. The power it has is even higher than Tooth&Nail imo.
1) Sacrifice Protean Hulk
2) Search for Karmic Guide, Viscera Seer
3) Reanimate Protean Hulk
4) Sacrifice Hulk again to Viscera Seer, grabbing Saffi Eriksdotter and Fiend Hunter
5) Fiend Hunter exiles Karmic Guide
6) Sacrifice Fiend Hunter, Karmic Guide ETBs again, Bring back Protean Hulk
7) Sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter, targetting the Hulk
8) Sacrifice Hulk x2 for (Mikaeus + Triskelion to win or) Mikaeus + Reveillark which will loop through again and again (thanks to Karmic Guide and Saffi Eriksdotter)
9) Win or tutor out all creatures in your EDH deck which has 6cc and below.
Unlike other cards like staff of domination or tooth and nail which requires certain setup to win the game, Protean Hulk doesn't really care about the controller's own board state. There isn't any way to cast Tooth and Nail easily within the first couple of turns without enough mana to power it. Staff of Domination requires a creature that can tap for 5 to go infinite. Protean Hulk just needs to run recursion in white + a way to get it to play and into the graveyard fast. Which many cards in black can do it beautifully with just some life and a low mana cost, and there are many ways to fish the hulk out from the library early in the game. Eg Survival of the Fittest, Jarad's Orders etc.
Unlike other cards like staff of domination or tooth and nail which requires certain setup to win the game, Protean Hulk doesn't really care about the controller's own board state. There isn't any way to cast Tooth and Nail easily within the first couple of turns without enough mana to power it. Staff of Domination requires a creature that can tap for 5 to go infinite. Protean Hulk just needs to run recursion in white + a way to get it to play and into the graveyard fast. Which many cards in black can do it beautifully with just some life and a low mana cost, and there are many ways to fish the hulk out from the library early in the game. Eg Survival of the Fittest, Jarad's Orders etc.
Ok, but Command Tower, Dark Ritual, Entomb (Worldgorger Dragon), Animate Dead, Comet Storm ends the game on turn 1 with 1 less card and one less required color, and I'm not seeing that being run everywhere and blowing up the format. We're not worried about the worst thing someone can do with it, we're worried about what it does when someone plays it without planning to combo.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Not looking forward to the unbanning of Protean Hulk, unless there are more library searching hosers available. There is just too much power packaged in this beast.
An Abzan.deck with correct deck planning, is able to get almost the entire deck's creatures out with just 1 creature. The power it has is even higher than Tooth&Nail imo.
1) Sacrifice Protean Hulk
2) Search for Karmic Guide, Viscera Seer
3) Reanimate Protean Hulk
4) Sacrifice Hulk again to Viscera Seer, grabbing Saffi Eriksdotter and Fiend Hunter
5) Fiend Hunter exiles Karmic Guide
6) Sacrifice Fiend Hunter, Karmic Guide ETBs again, Bring back Protean Hulk
7) Sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter, targetting the Hulk
8) Sacrifice Hulk x2 for (Mikaeus + Triskelion to win or) Mikaeus + Reveillark which will loop through again and again (thanks to Karmic Guide and Saffi Eriksdotter)
9) Win or tutor out all creatures in your EDH deck which has 6cc and below.
Unlike other cards like staff of domination or tooth and nail which requires certain setup to win the game, Protean Hulk doesn't really care about the controller's own board state. There isn't any way to cast Tooth and Nail easily within the first couple of turns without enough mana to power it. Staff of Domination requires a creature that can tap for 5 to go infinite. Protean Hulk just needs to run recursion in white + a way to get it to play and into the graveyard fast. Which many cards in black can do it beautifully with just some life and a low mana cost, and there are many ways to fish the hulk out from the library early in the game. Eg Survival of the Fittest, Jarad's Orders etc.
And yet it can still be done much easier. Tooth and Nail needs no setup at all to win the game.
Tooth and Nail into Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion? Check.
Tooth and Nail into Zealous Conscripts and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker? Check.
Tooth and Nail into Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron? Check.
3 of the 5 colours have an easy infinite with Tooth and Nail. Black is the only one that can go easily infinite with Protean Hulk and even that requires you to have a sac outlet for the Hulk and get a consistent chain going.
I already posted that Hulk can be "just a value creature" in many decks. It has a lot of "fair" uses, as in non-insta-combo. Situations like yours on turn 1 are rare. I can cast Tooth and Nail on turn 2 or 3 as well, and that's a lot more likely than you having your entire chain going like that on T1.
And don't forget: You still need at least a second piece to make Hulk work, no matter what, as it does need to die.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
You just listed 9 steps on how to break Hulk. Anyone else can break Tooth and Nail with just 1 step (or 2 if you want me to name said combinations).
Combo players gonna combo. People argue that T&N can be played fairly. I'm pretty sure Hulk can be a value card as well.
T&N doesn't see much play in the 1st 2 turns of the game as compared to entomb->reanimate sequence. Hulk is an ultra value creature in a hefty body, it doesn't really need that much reanimation to kill others in a combo, there are many other 6cc combined creatures that can kill very fast. Perhaps if there is a version of protean hulk that works the same way but has restrictions like Woodland Bellower then it will be more playable without breaking the game too much.
One of the reasons of banning cards is the how the card affects gameplay, Protean Hulk gives off the vibe like how Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial does previously when they were still legal. It will quickly become a contest of which player gets Protean Hulk to the table and sacrificing it to get its ability fast, be it via Bribery or clone magic. The ability to tutor for creatures onto the battlefield amounting to a total cost 6cc is just too strong imo.
Even my Oloro deck without any Karmic Guide/Mikaeus/Revillark/Sun Titan can also win via a stolen hulk trigger (Phantasmal Image/Bribery etc).
Entomb -> Reanimate a Hulk and you won't immediately win though, only if you can sac it yourself. Else, other people will just dig for exiling removal. A Jin-Gitaxias surviving a turn round will win you the game, though.
If you win by stealing someone else's Hulk, maybe they'll learn that playing the Hulk may not be the best play and end up cutting it. Who knows. I'm still fairly certain most decks don't have insta-win combos that can be fetched from just a single stolen Hulk.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
A turn 1 combo requiring six cards isn't exactly a call to ban something. IIRC, we at one point had a thread dedicated to different turn zero wins.
I think the real challenges facing hulk are that the combos it can grab are all good cards by themselves (so running hulk isn't at all deck warping), running hulk in the average deck isn't an opportunity cost (green runs creatures), and green can easily tutor creatures.
Not looking forward to the unbanning of Protean Hulk, unless there are more library searching hosers available. There is just too much power packaged in this beast.
An Abzan.deck with correct deck planning, is able to get almost the entire deck's creatures out with just 1 creature. The power it has is even higher than Tooth&Nail imo.
1) Sacrifice Protean Hulk
2) Search for Karmic Guide, Viscera Seer
3) Reanimate Protean Hulk
4) Sacrifice Hulk again to Viscera Seer, grabbing Saffi Eriksdotter and Fiend Hunter
5) Fiend Hunter exiles Karmic Guide
6) Sacrifice Fiend Hunter, Karmic Guide ETBs again, Bring back Protean Hulk
7) Sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter, targetting the Hulk
8) Sacrifice Hulk x2 for (Mikaeus + Triskelion to win or) Mikaeus + Reveillark which will loop through again and again (thanks to Karmic Guide and Saffi Eriksdotter)
9) Win or tutor out all creatures in your EDH deck which has 6cc and below.
Unlike other cards like staff of domination or tooth and nail which requires certain setup to win the game, Protean Hulk doesn't really care about the controller's own board state. There isn't any way to cast Tooth and Nail easily within the first couple of turns without enough mana to power it. Staff of Domination requires a creature that can tap for 5 to go infinite. Protean Hulk just needs to run recursion in white + a way to get it to play and into the graveyard fast. Which many cards in black can do it beautifully with just some life and a low mana cost, and there are many ways to fish the hulk out from the library early in the game. Eg Survival of the Fittest, Jarad's Orders etc.
I agree that Protean Hulk makes these interactions between those combo-friendly cards easier to assemble (Karmic Guide, Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, etc...), but the players focused around winning off of combos like this are not the players that the banned list is created to regulate. (As has been mentioned many times in this thread recently.)
What we should all be asking is, "Will Protean Hulk being legal centralize games or create un-fun situations 'accidentally' while a player is playing this card 'fairly'"
Obviously there are a lot of words in there that have different meanings to different people, but I am just hoping it will help people look at this issue subjectively as if they were a current RC member who shares their philosophy. So, "Should this card be banned with the current banning criteria and philosophy of the RC?"
I personally believe the card is very strong in most decks, but I am unsure how centralizing it will be... It may require playtesting. As far as if it strictly goes against the RC's vision, I don't think so. It seems like an ok un-ban from that standpoint.
I concur that it does require a sacrifice setup to run Protean Hulk. What I'm contesting is how powerful it is compared relatively to the other creatures available to it in a tutor into play spell. Imagine if protean hulk is unbanned, when players cast Natural Order digging for a value creature, most of the times the choice will be the hulk. There are not many other creatures as valuable compared to it since it
1) has a big body that is hard to kill,
2) replaces itself with other cards of your choice when it dies (wrath friendly and a toolbox card by itself),
3) Not all colors has access to creature exile effects.
A turn 1 combo requiring six cards isn't exactly a call to ban something. IIRC, we at one point had a thread dedicated to different turn zero wins.
I think the real challenges facing hulk are that the combos it can grab are all good cards by themselves (so running hulk isn't at all deck warping), running hulk in the average deck isn't an opportunity cost (green runs creatures), and green can easily tutor creatures.
And yet, it needs Black to combo out, and Black can easily tutor anything, including Tooth and Nail which does exactly what Hulk does except a million times more consistently. So that argument holds no ground.
I concur that it does require a sacrifice setup to run Protean Hulk. What I'm contesting is how powerful it is compared relatively to the other creatures available to it in a tutor into play spell. Imagine if protean hulk is unbanned, when players cast Natural Order digging for a value creature, most of the times the choice will be the hulk. There are not many other creatures as valuable compared to it since it
1) has a big body that is hard to kill,
2) replaces itself with other cards of your choice when it dies (wrath friendly and a toolbox card by itself),
3) Not all colors has access to creature exile effects.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Yeah Prophet of Kruphix needs to be banned, getting really tired of seeing it all the time in any deck that runs UG. It lengthens the duration of the game with the prophet player doing numerous EoT stuff every turn.
Sorry I don't really get how Relic of Progenitus can prevent Protean Hulk from triggering. A question, if Protean Hulk is not broken, how does it get itself banned in the first place?
A turn 1 combo requiring six cards isn't exactly a call to ban something. IIRC, we at one point had a thread dedicated to different turn zero wins.
I think the real challenges facing hulk are that the combos it can grab are all good cards by themselves (so running hulk isn't at all deck warping), running hulk in the average deck isn't an opportunity cost (green runs creatures), and green can easily tutor creatures.
The biggest thing I have about Hulk is that you don't even need to combo with him. All of those cards, from body double, to karmic guide, are all already run in lists. Honestly, if Hulk said nothing more than "Every time you wrath, I keep hulk and get another creature out," that already pretty strong and annoying.
The biggest thing I have for it, is that if I am playing white, a number of my wraths make him not hit the Yard at all. I don't think that's enough of a balancing factor.
I also really don't want to see someone's wrath turn someone else's boardstate into a Prophet of Kruphix. Answers aren't supposed to make problems worse.
So with that in mind, let's unban Protean Hulk and ban Prophet of Kruphix. Trow Gx a bone, take a bone away from GUx. Seems fair to me.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Yeah Prophet of Kruphix needs to be banned, getting really tired of seeing it all the time in any deck that runs UG. It lengthens the duration of the game with the prophet player doing numerous EoT stuff every turn.
Sorry I don't really get how Relic of Progenitus can prevent Protean Hulk from triggering. A question, if Protean Hulk is not broken, how does it get itself banned in the first place?
Odds are, it was the complaint flavor of the month at some point, like PoK is now, and those cards get banned in a never ending cycle of banning the favorite Bribery target.
Relic does not prevent Hulk from triggering, but it does prevent Hulk from fetching up most I-Win combos as you can Relic him away once a Phyrexian Delver/Karmic Guide tries to pull it back.
The only reason Hulk ever got banned was because its a relic of the past, Flash-Hulk. Much like how Worldgorger Dragon once was such a card, banned for what it could do, not for what it actually did. That one got unbanned and I don't really see any issues with it...
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Let's get back to Protean Hulk. Does anybody have any arguments AGAINST it other than "But it can combo out like thousands of other cards can do just as easily" ?
I think the concern is that it could become an overcentralizing clone/theft/reanimation target like Primeval Titan. I cannot imagine that its effect would be as universally valued as that of PT, though. I never hear the "accidentally broken" thing anymore, so I can only guess the RC is not that concerned about it assembling a Reveillark combo or whatever without prior intent.
I also seem to recall reading about someone's playgroup testing out Protean Hulk, but the only specifics given were something along the lines of "trust me, it's better off banned."
Seedborn is undoubtably a strong card, as is Teferi. But let's say both are worth 100 points of "power", so to say. Prophet takes 75 points from Seedborn and 75 from Teferi, and then you get the sum of parts...for much less resources spent. That's why I think that Seedborn and Teferi aren't worth banning, but Prophet is.
And if Prophet is banned, I think it's a bit safer to unban Hulk as well, as Hulk won't be able to fetch Prophet, nor will a Prophet player ever respond to a Wrath with "Flash in Hulk, Hulk dies, get Body Double, copy Prophet, where were we?" unless they have multiple pieces out on the board. (At which point, they deserve it.)
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The RC doesn't ban cards to take away tools from an archetype. Just because UGx goodstuff is one of the more capable color combinations for battlecruiser magic (card draw and ramp gogo) doesn't somehow justify banning a strong card in the colors. Look at my post history if you want to find all the reasons PoK shouldn't be banned. I'm not going to waste my time writing paragraphs about how it doesn't meet any qualifications for a ban any more. It's just like Consecrated Sphinx. A select amount of players are going to repeatedly cry for it to be banned through blatant hyperbole about how "broken and oppressive and time consuming" it is, which is generally false. The card might be win-more, but really now, stop it. It's been out for two years and hasn't been banned. It hasn't gotten better or worse in that time and has probably become less offensive in that time (wow, social contract, go figure), given that Lou is the only one who repeatedly brings it up, I'd hazard a guess that it isn't that much of a problem.
Really tired of the same old Sol Ring/PoK circle jerk that goes nowhere and, not surprisingly, neither of them ever get banned. Maybe we should talk about Banned as a Commander. I want Rofellos back. Revolution!
EDIT: Let's look at the actual crossover between Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Seedborn Muse, and Prophet of Kruphix. Teferi himself has Flash, which PoK does not. PoK and Teferi both give your creatures Flash, which is cool. Teferi stops your opponents from interfering with you other than on their own turns, which is huge and is probably one of the most brutal parts of him as a card. I'd say it is more significant than his creature flash, that's for sure. Seedborn Muse is a slightly more apt comparison as you can have artifacts untap with Seedborn, but PoK untaps creatures and lands, which are probably the more important card types even though artifacts are often HUGELY relevant. So the PoK is probably 70-75 Seedborn and, roughly, 35-40 Teferi. So it is more of a 105-115 power level card, still very strong by all standards, but can hardly be represented to be that much better than either of those mentioned. Since Teferi and Seedborn aren't exactly anywhere near the banning block, it is pretty hard to argue that PoK, which is maybe 10-15% better than either card in a vacuum, should be considered as well just because it sees a lot of play.
The reason I tried to shift gears to Protean Hulk...
I don't think the issue is with a person winning with a pre-built infinite combo. I think its a centralization issue like we ran into with Prime Time. Almost every green deck will run it, even without combos because of value, and so people will adjust decks specifically because they think they will play AGAINST it. Then it just gets cloned, stolen, reanimated, etc the whole game.
If they unban it thats fine with me personally, but I don't see why Prime Time would be banned if its not.
I agree Prophet has come into this space as well. Ban them all, open up some G and UG diversity.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Was a bit tongue in cheek. I'm not sure how I feel about the Hulk. I like the card. It is obviously very very good and an excellent value play, whether for another beater or just to grab utility guys, which seem to be plentiful at 3 mana. It would be another thing for people to abuse if it got unbbanned, but so is Metalworker if you really wanted and we haven't heard any complaints about his unban as far as I can recall. Hulk's use as a combo enabler should be thrown out the window so the only question is if he is too centralizing. I'd argue he can be abused a bit more than Koko, but probably not as great as PT or SP so he's at this awkward middle ground of -maybe- banworthy in today's meta. I do agree that GY hate has taken great strides and is certainly more efficient and prevalent than it used to be. With that, players may have adequate protection against potential centralization. The fact he does have to die should be looked at as a positive I think because abuse and centralization is more limited.
Overall I think he could probably come off the list and be okay. Recurring Nightmare on the other hand is just a really messed up card to interact with and becomes repetitive and boring. I hope it never comes off.
I feel like Crucible of Worlds combo is kind of really lame. It's the kind of thing that you can "woops, strip mine all your lands ahaha" do and I'm not a big fan. Also I don't like to hear that Crucible should be a staple in every deck because it really shouldn't have to be. Life from the Loam is fine but anything that synergizes with Crucible ends up being cancer.
Unbanning Protean Hulk opens up a whole bunch of really lame insta-win combos, it's completely fair to keep that banned. The only things I think that should be unbanned are Library of Alexandria and Sway of the Stars. Library doesn't just win you the game, and we're already playing games with Timetwister and Mana Crypt so barrier to entry isn't an excuse either. Sway of the Stars HAS to be built around otherwise it doesn't just win the game and is not nearly on the same level of simplicity as Worldfire
Crucible is fine. Got a fetchland in your yard? It's colorless phyrexian arena. Krosan verge or myriad landscape? Now it's sweet (and not at all mean).
Library is banned for scarcity AND ubiquity. It's not just horrendously expensive, it's also a good card for basically every deck ever. That's what creates a percieved barrier to entry. If library were legal, most people would feel like "I still need to get one before my deck is done", whereas they don't commonly feel that way about twister, crypt, workshop, etc.
Sway, upheaval, and worldfire all fall into the same category. They just make the rest of the game completely redunant. Oh you spent the last 12 turns cleverly meneuvring yourself into a strong position? Well shucks, none of that matters because woosh, everything's gone - including your ability to recover - and I'm the only one who gets to utilize floating mana to re-cast my commander and mana rocks and whatever else will help me kill you before you can rebuild. There are other cards that 'kinda' do this (jokulhaups, obliterate, etc), but not as completely or effectively. They're not really broken cards, to be honest, but we're trying to create an environment conducive to long/interesting/epic games. And without even trying to break upheaval + company, they tend to have the effect being the game-winning card every single time they're drawn with a decent mana supply. Which is not epic, or interesting. It's boring and repetitive and makes you feel silly for caring about what happens before they make an appearance.
You're fun, my fun, or Jack's fun?
An Abzan.deck with correct deck planning, is able to get almost the entire deck's creatures out with just 1 creature. The power it has is even higher than Tooth&Nail imo.
1) Sacrifice Protean Hulk
2) Search for Karmic Guide, Viscera Seer
3) Reanimate Protean Hulk
4) Sacrifice Hulk again to Viscera Seer, grabbing Saffi Eriksdotter and Fiend Hunter
5) Fiend Hunter exiles Karmic Guide
6) Sacrifice Fiend Hunter, Karmic Guide ETBs again, Bring back Protean Hulk
7) Sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter, targetting the Hulk
8) Sacrifice Hulk x2 for (Mikaeus + Triskelion to win or) Mikaeus + Reveillark which will loop through again and again (thanks to Karmic Guide and Saffi Eriksdotter)
9) Win or tutor out all creatures in your EDH deck which has 6cc and below.
How fast can it be pulled off? T1 is possible.
T1 -> High Market, Mox Diamond (B, discard land), Lotus Petal (B), Entomb, Reanimate, sac ftw.
Unlike other cards like staff of domination or tooth and nail which requires certain setup to win the game, Protean Hulk doesn't really care about the controller's own board state. There isn't any way to cast Tooth and Nail easily within the first couple of turns without enough mana to power it. Staff of Domination requires a creature that can tap for 5 to go infinite. Protean Hulk just needs to run recursion in white + a way to get it to play and into the graveyard fast. Which many cards in black can do it beautifully with just some life and a low mana cost, and there are many ways to fish the hulk out from the library early in the game. Eg Survival of the Fittest, Jarad's Orders etc.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Combo players gonna combo. People argue that T&N can be played fairly. I'm pretty sure Hulk can be a value card as well.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
That sort of logic only matters when arbitrary and immeasurable "fun quota" is up for debate, though.
Ok, but Command Tower, Dark Ritual, Entomb (Worldgorger Dragon), Animate Dead, Comet Storm ends the game on turn 1 with 1 less card and one less required color, and I'm not seeing that being run everywhere and blowing up the format. We're not worried about the worst thing someone can do with it, we're worried about what it does when someone plays it without planning to combo.
And yet it can still be done much easier. Tooth and Nail needs no setup at all to win the game.
Tooth and Nail into Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion? Check.
Tooth and Nail into Zealous Conscripts and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker? Check.
Tooth and Nail into Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron? Check.
3 of the 5 colours have an easy infinite with Tooth and Nail. Black is the only one that can go easily infinite with Protean Hulk and even that requires you to have a sac outlet for the Hulk and get a consistent chain going.
I already posted that Hulk can be "just a value creature" in many decks. It has a lot of "fair" uses, as in non-insta-combo. Situations like yours on turn 1 are rare. I can cast Tooth and Nail on turn 2 or 3 as well, and that's a lot more likely than you having your entire chain going like that on T1.
And don't forget: You still need at least a second piece to make Hulk work, no matter what, as it does need to die.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
T&N doesn't see much play in the 1st 2 turns of the game as compared to entomb->reanimate sequence. Hulk is an ultra value creature in a hefty body, it doesn't really need that much reanimation to kill others in a combo, there are many other 6cc combined creatures that can kill very fast. Perhaps if there is a version of protean hulk that works the same way but has restrictions like Woodland Bellower then it will be more playable without breaking the game too much.
One of the reasons of banning cards is the how the card affects gameplay, Protean Hulk gives off the vibe like how Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial does previously when they were still legal. It will quickly become a contest of which player gets Protean Hulk to the table and sacrificing it to get its ability fast, be it via Bribery or clone magic. The ability to tutor for creatures onto the battlefield amounting to a total cost 6cc is just too strong imo.
Even my Oloro deck without any Karmic Guide/Mikaeus/Revillark/Sun Titan can also win via a stolen hulk trigger (Phantasmal Image/Bribery etc).
6cc.. Children of Korlis + Vizkopa Guildmage + Hex Parasite + 1WB
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
If you win by stealing someone else's Hulk, maybe they'll learn that playing the Hulk may not be the best play and end up cutting it. Who knows. I'm still fairly certain most decks don't have insta-win combos that can be fetched from just a single stolen Hulk.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I think the real challenges facing hulk are that the combos it can grab are all good cards by themselves (so running hulk isn't at all deck warping), running hulk in the average deck isn't an opportunity cost (green runs creatures), and green can easily tutor creatures.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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I agree that Protean Hulk makes these interactions between those combo-friendly cards easier to assemble (Karmic Guide, Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, etc...), but the players focused around winning off of combos like this are not the players that the banned list is created to regulate. (As has been mentioned many times in this thread recently.)
What we should all be asking is, "Will Protean Hulk being legal centralize games or create un-fun situations 'accidentally' while a player is playing this card 'fairly'"
Obviously there are a lot of words in there that have different meanings to different people, but I am just hoping it will help people look at this issue subjectively as if they were a current RC member who shares their philosophy. So, "Should this card be banned with the current banning criteria and philosophy of the RC?"
I personally believe the card is very strong in most decks, but I am unsure how centralizing it will be... It may require playtesting. As far as if it strictly goes against the RC's vision, I don't think so. It seems like an ok un-ban from that standpoint.
I concur that it does require a sacrifice setup to run Protean Hulk. What I'm contesting is how powerful it is compared relatively to the other creatures available to it in a tutor into play spell. Imagine if protean hulk is unbanned, when players cast Natural Order digging for a value creature, most of the times the choice will be the hulk. There are not many other creatures as valuable compared to it since it
1) has a big body that is hard to kill,
2) replaces itself with other cards of your choice when it dies (wrath friendly and a toolbox card by itself),
3) Not all colors has access to creature exile effects.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
And yet, it needs Black to combo out, and Black can easily tutor anything, including Tooth and Nail which does exactly what Hulk does except a million times more consistently. So that argument holds no ground.
Natural Order is just as likely to grab a Prophet of Kruphix (Which still needs to be banned), an Avenger of Zendikar, pending the boardstate a Craterhoof Behemoth, and the list goes on. As for your 3 points:
1: It WANTS to die, and it's not even a great beater itself as it lacks trample. People are likely just going to take the 6 damage.
2: Yeah, that's the whole point. It's a good value creature, one of the top eschelon even, but it's just not broken.
3: Between Karn Liberated, Scour from Existence, Duplicant, Perilous Vault, Brittle Effigy, Helvault, and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, I beg to differ. And to prevent abuse, every deck can run Relic of Progenitus.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Sorry I don't really get how Relic of Progenitus can prevent Protean Hulk from triggering. A question, if Protean Hulk is not broken, how does it get itself banned in the first place?
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
The biggest thing I have about Hulk is that you don't even need to combo with him. All of those cards, from body double, to karmic guide, are all already run in lists. Honestly, if Hulk said nothing more than "Every time you wrath, I keep hulk and get another creature out," that already pretty strong and annoying.
The biggest thing I have for it, is that if I am playing white, a number of my wraths make him not hit the Yard at all. I don't think that's enough of a balancing factor.
I also really don't want to see someone's wrath turn someone else's boardstate into a Prophet of Kruphix. Answers aren't supposed to make problems worse.
The kind of fun that promotes interactivity between players in a social setting.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Odds are, it was the complaint flavor of the month at some point, like PoK is now, and those cards get banned in a never ending cycle of banning the favorite Bribery target.
The only reason Hulk ever got banned was because its a relic of the past, Flash-Hulk. Much like how Worldgorger Dragon once was such a card, banned for what it could do, not for what it actually did. That one got unbanned and I don't really see any issues with it...
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I also seem to recall reading about someone's playgroup testing out Protean Hulk, but the only specifics given were something along the lines of "trust me, it's better off banned."
I guess it is obvious how I feel about the card.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Even Seedborn Muse can be very strong, to the point that I stopped playing it for casual purposes; Prophet took it to the next level.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
And if Prophet is banned, I think it's a bit safer to unban Hulk as well, as Hulk won't be able to fetch Prophet, nor will a Prophet player ever respond to a Wrath with "Flash in Hulk, Hulk dies, get Body Double, copy Prophet, where were we?" unless they have multiple pieces out on the board. (At which point, they deserve it.)
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Really tired of the same old Sol Ring/PoK circle jerk that goes nowhere and, not surprisingly, neither of them ever get banned. Maybe we should talk about Banned as a Commander. I want Rofellos back. Revolution!
EDIT: Let's look at the actual crossover between Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Seedborn Muse, and Prophet of Kruphix. Teferi himself has Flash, which PoK does not. PoK and Teferi both give your creatures Flash, which is cool. Teferi stops your opponents from interfering with you other than on their own turns, which is huge and is probably one of the most brutal parts of him as a card. I'd say it is more significant than his creature flash, that's for sure. Seedborn Muse is a slightly more apt comparison as you can have artifacts untap with Seedborn, but PoK untaps creatures and lands, which are probably the more important card types even though artifacts are often HUGELY relevant. So the PoK is probably 70-75 Seedborn and, roughly, 35-40 Teferi. So it is more of a 105-115 power level card, still very strong by all standards, but can hardly be represented to be that much better than either of those mentioned. Since Teferi and Seedborn aren't exactly anywhere near the banning block, it is pretty hard to argue that PoK, which is maybe 10-15% better than either card in a vacuum, should be considered as well just because it sees a lot of play.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
I don't think the issue is with a person winning with a pre-built infinite combo. I think its a centralization issue like we ran into with Prime Time. Almost every green deck will run it, even without combos because of value, and so people will adjust decks specifically because they think they will play AGAINST it. Then it just gets cloned, stolen, reanimated, etc the whole game.
If they unban it thats fine with me personally, but I don't see why Prime Time would be banned if its not.
I agree Prophet has come into this space as well. Ban them all, open up some G and UG diversity.
Yea thats a new topic...
Was a bit tongue in cheek. I'm not sure how I feel about the Hulk. I like the card. It is obviously very very good and an excellent value play, whether for another beater or just to grab utility guys, which seem to be plentiful at 3 mana. It would be another thing for people to abuse if it got unbbanned, but so is Metalworker if you really wanted and we haven't heard any complaints about his unban as far as I can recall. Hulk's use as a combo enabler should be thrown out the window so the only question is if he is too centralizing. I'd argue he can be abused a bit more than Koko, but probably not as great as PT or SP so he's at this awkward middle ground of -maybe- banworthy in today's meta. I do agree that GY hate has taken great strides and is certainly more efficient and prevalent than it used to be. With that, players may have adequate protection against potential centralization. The fact he does have to die should be looked at as a positive I think because abuse and centralization is more limited.
Overall I think he could probably come off the list and be okay. Recurring Nightmare on the other hand is just a really messed up card to interact with and becomes repetitive and boring. I hope it never comes off.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Unbanning Protean Hulk opens up a whole bunch of really lame insta-win combos, it's completely fair to keep that banned. The only things I think that should be unbanned are Library of Alexandria and Sway of the Stars. Library doesn't just win you the game, and we're already playing games with Timetwister and Mana Crypt so barrier to entry isn't an excuse either. Sway of the Stars HAS to be built around otherwise it doesn't just win the game and is not nearly on the same level of simplicity as Worldfire
An enigma as vexing as life itself.
Library is banned for scarcity AND ubiquity. It's not just horrendously expensive, it's also a good card for basically every deck ever. That's what creates a percieved barrier to entry. If library were legal, most people would feel like "I still need to get one before my deck is done", whereas they don't commonly feel that way about twister, crypt, workshop, etc.
Sway, upheaval, and worldfire all fall into the same category. They just make the rest of the game completely redunant. Oh you spent the last 12 turns cleverly meneuvring yourself into a strong position? Well shucks, none of that matters because woosh, everything's gone - including your ability to recover - and I'm the only one who gets to utilize floating mana to re-cast my commander and mana rocks and whatever else will help me kill you before you can rebuild. There are other cards that 'kinda' do this (jokulhaups, obliterate, etc), but not as completely or effectively. They're not really broken cards, to be honest, but we're trying to create an environment conducive to long/interesting/epic games. And without even trying to break upheaval + company, they tend to have the effect being the game-winning card every single time they're drawn with a decent mana supply. Which is not epic, or interesting. It's boring and repetitive and makes you feel silly for caring about what happens before they make an appearance.