how many people play all 5 basic types for their 5c decks? i cant afford the ABU duals, and i dont have all the shocks either. i'm not sure if they are really all that different in its in-game application. its usually a lot less work to T&N win than coalition victory win. i actually need to put specific lands into play, ramp up mana AND have the general out at minimum, whereas with T&N, its just ramp up to the mana, then pick and choose combo pieces from deck.
i truly dont think black braids is nearly as bad as many people think. it does require a bit of work building the deck in a way that makes her a problem; and at that point, is the card the problem here, really?
But for many people, "have one land of each type" is trivially easy. Even with just Shocks + Fetches (a mana base which is relatively cheap right now), you can have it with only 3 lands in play, and it's pretty hard to NOT have it with 8.
As for Braids, how exactly are you planning on using her that ISN'T a problem?
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But for many people, "have one land of each type" is trivially easy. Even with just Shocks + Fetches (a mana base which is relatively cheap right now), you can have it with only 3 lands in play, and it's pretty hard to NOT have it with 8.
As for Braids, how exactly are you planning on using her that ISN'T a problem?
She wasn't that bad in the 99. Sure, sometimes you had these situations where she camd out early with backup like Bitterblossom, but for the most part she was just another efficient stax tool. As Lithl said, it was because she sucks as a general which is why she's banned.
it might be pretty easy for many people out there, its just still harder work than pulling off a TN; my view is that if the RC thinks that one-card combos should be tricky/involves a bit of deckwork to work, T&N is about on par with coalition victory.
its not that she can't be a problem, i just think that players make her a problem if they tried hard enough/skew their decks to make it a problem. erayo and rofellos were a problem 'cuz they don't really require much effort in deckbuilding skewed towards them to trigger the flip/make insane mana, whereas braids does require a completely dedicated stax/attrition build. sometimes, its hard to tell if the problem lies with the card or the player.
having said that, in my braids build, i'd probably chuck in some things that let me sac things for profit like spine of ish sah, blood artist and the like. maybe some bounce like erratic portal as well. good? bad? is that exactly what ends up as a major problem in the format? i'm assuming there are some people out there who goes the full mile to break her, which is why i suspect that most people's admonishment on braids is probably well-placed; its probably just me who hasn't seen her in her full glory (so to speak).
it might be pretty easy for many people out there, its just still harder work than pulling off a TN; my view is that if the RC thinks that one-card combos should be tricky/involves a bit of deckwork to work, T&N is about on par with coalition victory.
its not that she can't be a problem, i just think that players make her a problem if they tried hard enough/skew their decks to make it a problem. erayo and rofellos were a problem 'cuz they don't really require much effort in deckbuilding skewed towards them to trigger the flip/make insane mana, whereas braids does require a completely dedicated stax/attrition build. sometimes, its hard to tell if the problem lies with the card or the player.
having said that, in my braids build, i'd probably chuck in some things that let me sac things for profit like spine of ish sah, blood artist and the like. maybe some bounce like erratic portal as well. good? bad? is that exactly what ends up as a major problem in the format? i'm assuming there are some people out there who goes the full mile to break her, which is why i suspect that most people's admonishment on braids is probably well-placed; its probably just me who hasn't seen her in her full glory (so to speak).
CV - do absolutely no extra work outside of your normal deck playing. No extra cards, nothing. Play the game, cast CV. If it resolves the game is literally over. With T&N you have to ( sometimes) consciously add creatures which otherwise do not support your deck. But no matter what, once it resolves players still have opportunities to respond and prevent the game from ending. This is the part you're overlooking.
Braids - decks with her as the general were consistently built to get her out by turn 2, 3 at the latest, and then keep everyone else from getting any sort of board state. That is not the kids d of thing the RC encourages, which is why she was banned as a commander. In the 99 she was strong but not broken, but since the BaaC was removed she had to go.
i think your examination of CV (is that coalition victory, right?) is spot on; what i'm saying though is that TN essentially has the same effect on the game; players have to have an instant-speed answer, otherwise you win the game. both can be answered with a timely murder for example, but the answer card is needed then and there.
with braids, i was under the impression that the RC bans cards on the philosophy that if it requires quite a specific build to break a specific card, it's generally ok; and it sounds like people built their braids deck with that very specific deck-build to break her. its why worldgorger dragon, ad nauseum and hermit druid aren't banned. or am i completely off with my interpretation of the RC's motives?
also - i keep getting an error "Non Latin Unicode characters are temporarily not allowed" only when i'm quoting/replying people. is that normal?
The difference is that Tooth and Nail can be used for something other than just straight winning the game, whereas Coalition Victory only wins the game.
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The difference is that Tooth and Nail can be used for something other than just straight winning the game, whereas Coalition Victory only wins the game.
Though of course it rarely happens, this "other use other than just straight winning the game." After which you'll always get a few posters with their one or two specific answers about how they definitely did not win the game right then, but well.
The truth from that one though is that Coalition Victory has LITERALLY no use aside from "Win the game".
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Doesn't instant-speed creature kill work on CV the same way as T&N combos?
That would depend on which five color commander was at the helm. Instant speed spot removal can force CV do do nothing when it resolves, but it's a tall order to be able to answer a Sliver Hivelord or Progenitus at will.
Though of course it rarely happens, this "other use other than just straight winning the game." After which you'll always get a few posters with their one or two specific answers about how they definitely did not win the game right then, but well.
The truth from that one though is that Coalition Victory has LITERALLY no use aside from "Win the game".
I've definitely seen T&N used to not straight win quite often.
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T&N combos can also generally be disrupted on multiple ends. It is sometimes considered a one card combo but its 7GG that can be interacted with counters or copy effects. Then after you go and get your two creature combo you usually have to resort to do something infinitely to which the first trigger can usually be disrupted with spot removal.
As others have mentioned as well its not the only way to utilize such a spell. Generally speaking the RC tries to allow spells that can be utilized fairly to stay. I don't think it would be a huge loss if it was banned but its also not that big of a problem contender when you look at some other effects. I think there are bigger fish to fry I guess is my feeling on T&N. I wouldn't really care if it got banned but its probably not in the first 5 cards I would consider banning if I had to ban 5 cards right now.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
i think your examination of CV (is that coalition victory, right?) is spot on; what i'm saying though is that TN essentially has the same effect on the game; players have to have an instant-speed answer, otherwise you win the game. both can be answered with a timely murder for example, but the answer card is needed then and there.
with braids, i was under the impression that the RC bans cards on the philosophy that if it requires quite a specific build to break a specific card, it's generally ok; and it sounds like people built their braids deck with that very specific deck-build to break her. its why worldgorger dragon, ad nauseum and hermit druid aren't banned. or am i completely off with my interpretation of the RC's motives?
also - i keep getting an error "Non Latin Unicode characters are temporarily not allowed" only when i'm quoting/replying people. is that normal?
As I said earlier though, if any of those cards could be your general they would probably be banned.
also - i keep getting an error "Non Latin Unicode characters are temporarily not allowed" only when i'm quoting/replying people. is that normal?
I will try not to detract any longer than necessary. It's because those individuals have been added to the exemption list and you have not. Go here to request Feyd to add you to it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
If there was a way we could get people to self-edit and not post absolutely ridiculous crap
As a quick example: Banning 50 or some odd poison/infect cards is not going to happen, so the discussion around poison might be better served as "maybe we change the number for EDH" than "let's ban 50 cards because I don't like infect."
I've started playing online more as of recently and the only cards which are not currently banned that make me roll my eyes are Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. These cards come down turn one and put the player two full turns ahead of the rest of the table. These cards tend to enable other options before the rest of the table is able to deal with them. Most of the other items people complain about are limited to specific decks or happen later in the game. These two mana rocks are in every deck and skew things when they come down.
T&N combos can also generally be disrupted on multiple ends. It is sometimes considered a one card combo but its 7GG that can be interacted with counters or copy effects. Then after you go and get your two creature combo you usually have to resort to do something infinitely to which the first trigger can usually be disrupted with spot removal.
As others have mentioned as well its not the only way to utilize such a spell. Generally speaking the RC tries to allow spells that can be utilized fairly to stay. I don't think it would be a huge loss if it was banned but its also not that big of a problem contender when you look at some other effects. I think there are bigger fish to fry I guess is my feeling on T&N. I wouldn't really care if it got banned but its probably not in the first 5 cards I would consider banning if I had to ban 5 cards right now.
And then we get back full circle; if Tooth and Nail has fair uses, so do Panoptic Mirror, Painter's Servant and Protean Hulk. The RC really should define what they consider fair use, because as of now, it's muddy as can be.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
And then we get back full circle; if Tooth and Nail has fair uses, so do Panoptic Mirror, Painter's Servant and Protean Hulk. The RC really should define what they consider fair use, because as of now, it's muddy as can be.
You give me Servant and I am totally down to let you keep TnN.
You give me Servant and I don't care what you run that isn't named Grindstone.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
You give me Servant and I am totally down to let you keep TnN.
You give me Servant and I don't care what you run that isn't named Grindstone.
I'll give you servant if you ban Iona and Grindstone. Grindstone can be dealt with a bit better, but still. I think Paint's servant can be fun, but Iona and Grindstone aren't.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I just said I don't want Grindstone around with Servant available. I'm not a fan of Iona either, but I'd feel disingenuous asking for her banned but not asking for Ugin banned.
But hey, you can ban Ugin, Iona, Grindstone, and All is Dust if I get to play with Servant.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Honestly I want Servant unbanned and Iona banned. I'm ok with all of the other stupid Servant combos remaining legal. Maybe also Grindstone because it's so fast.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
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StaffBut for many people, "have one land of each type" is trivially easy. Even with just Shocks + Fetches (a mana base which is relatively cheap right now), you can have it with only 3 lands in play, and it's pretty hard to NOT have it with 8.
As for Braids, how exactly are you planning on using her that ISN'T a problem?
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She wasn't that bad in the 99. Sure, sometimes you had these situations where she camd out early with backup like Bitterblossom, but for the most part she was just another efficient stax tool. As Lithl said, it was because she sucks as a general which is why she's banned.
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its not that she can't be a problem, i just think that players make her a problem if they tried hard enough/skew their decks to make it a problem. erayo and rofellos were a problem 'cuz they don't really require much effort in deckbuilding skewed towards them to trigger the flip/make insane mana, whereas braids does require a completely dedicated stax/attrition build. sometimes, its hard to tell if the problem lies with the card or the player.
having said that, in my braids build, i'd probably chuck in some things that let me sac things for profit like spine of ish sah, blood artist and the like. maybe some bounce like erratic portal as well. good? bad? is that exactly what ends up as a major problem in the format? i'm assuming there are some people out there who goes the full mile to break her, which is why i suspect that most people's admonishment on braids is probably well-placed; its probably just me who hasn't seen her in her full glory (so to speak).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
CV - do absolutely no extra work outside of your normal deck playing. No extra cards, nothing. Play the game, cast CV. If it resolves the game is literally over. With T&N you have to ( sometimes) consciously add creatures which otherwise do not support your deck. But no matter what, once it resolves players still have opportunities to respond and prevent the game from ending. This is the part you're overlooking.
Braids - decks with her as the general were consistently built to get her out by turn 2, 3 at the latest, and then keep everyone else from getting any sort of board state. That is not the kids d of thing the RC encourages, which is why she was banned as a commander. In the 99 she was strong but not broken, but since the BaaC was removed she had to go.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
with braids, i was under the impression that the RC bans cards on the philosophy that if it requires quite a specific build to break a specific card, it's generally ok; and it sounds like people built their braids deck with that very specific deck-build to break her. its why worldgorger dragon, ad nauseum and hermit druid aren't banned. or am i completely off with my interpretation of the RC's motives?
also - i keep getting an error "Non Latin Unicode characters are temporarily not allowed" only when i'm quoting/replying people. is that normal?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
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Though of course it rarely happens, this "other use other than just straight winning the game." After which you'll always get a few posters with their one or two specific answers about how they definitely did not win the game right then, but well.
The truth from that one though is that Coalition Victory has LITERALLY no use aside from "Win the game".
That would depend on which five color commander was at the helm. Instant speed spot removal can force CV do do nothing when it resolves, but it's a tall order to be able to answer a Sliver Hivelord or Progenitus at will.
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StaffI've definitely seen T&N used to not straight win quite often.
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As others have mentioned as well its not the only way to utilize such a spell. Generally speaking the RC tries to allow spells that can be utilized fairly to stay. I don't think it would be a huge loss if it was banned but its also not that big of a problem contender when you look at some other effects. I think there are bigger fish to fry I guess is my feeling on T&N. I wouldn't really care if it got banned but its probably not in the first 5 cards I would consider banning if I had to ban 5 cards right now.
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[Modern] Allies
As I said earlier though, if any of those cards could be your general they would probably be banned.
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I will try not to detract any longer than necessary. It's because those individuals have been added to the exemption list and you have not. Go here to request Feyd to add you to it.
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[Modern] Allies
Now we definitely need to separate it into sections (as discussed earlier)
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
As a quick example: Banning 50 or some odd poison/infect cards is not going to happen, so the discussion around poison might be better served as "maybe we change the number for EDH" than "let's ban 50 cards because I don't like infect."
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I'm coming around on sick cards like Survival and T&N - they can have reasonable uses and so on. But casting T&N entwined on turn 2 is a problem
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
And then we get back full circle; if Tooth and Nail has fair uses, so do Panoptic Mirror, Painter's Servant and Protean Hulk. The RC really should define what they consider fair use, because as of now, it's muddy as can be.
You give me Servant and I am totally down to let you keep TnN.
You give me Servant and I don't care what you run that isn't named Grindstone.
I'll give you servant if you ban Iona and Grindstone. Grindstone can be dealt with a bit better, but still. I think Paint's servant can be fun, but Iona and Grindstone aren't.
But hey, you can ban Ugin, Iona, Grindstone, and All is Dust if I get to play with Servant.
Reanimating stuff is a fun interaction so I get recurring nightmare as a pet card, but I just don't get painter.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Honestly I want Servant unbanned and Iona banned. I'm ok with all of the other stupid Servant combos remaining legal. Maybe also Grindstone because it's so fast.
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