For the results of the rotating polls held on this thread, see the next post.
This thread is for the discussion of the official multiplayer banlist. If you believe that a certain card should or shouldn't be banned, discuss it here.
A few things you should know about the Banned List:
1. We can't ban every card someone finds offensive because the list would be too large.
1a. Banning Card B because Card A is already on the list isn't a slippery slope, it's an impending avalanche.
2. There is no 100% solution because card evaluation is subjective. Ergo, there will never be a player-base consensus list. In other words, no matter what the list looks like, there will be complainers.
3. "Power level" in and of itself is subjective, and not necessarily the only criteria for banning.
4. We will never publish an objective flowchart on how cards get banned because 1) it's close to impossible and 2) a 0% win for us. We'll endeavor to explain why a card gets banned based on which criteria we've used, to wit:
5. The two major things that will get a card banned are 1) it creates too much mana too early in the game (Tolarian Academy) and 2) it makes for bad games even when players aren't trying to abuse it (Biorhythm).
5a. Individuals will interpret those two criteria differently.
6. Creating a "balanced" tournament environment is not a factor.
7. 1v1 play is not a factor.
I hope this helps give some insight into the RC's efforts regarding the banned list.
The problem is that there aren't enough players to go around. If there are 4 people at my table, and 2 want to play a combo-Spike deck and 2 want to chill and play a fun deck, there's no way to make everyone happy. Similarly, if I play a 3-man, pick-up game at a local store with a guy I know and a guy I don't know who turns out to be playing combo, what's my option? I can try to talk the new guy into playing a more "fair" deck, but there's no guarantee that I'll play with him again -- next week might be a new combo guy.
This sounds like a frustration you're going to experience regardless of format, though. If, randomly, you all decided to start playing Standard next week, your Vampire Tribal deck is going to be crushed by whatever Delver variant the competitive folks play. No reasonable amount of Standard bannings is likely to give the Vampire Tribal deck a fair shot.
The difference between Standard and Commander is that Standard is explicitly about winning, and people who are looking for a puzzle to "solve" should be looking over at Standard and the other formats. Commander is about finding a group in which your Vampire Tribal deck has fun games with the other people. A banlist isn't going to do that.
Say the rules committee announced: "We want EDH to be no fast than turn 5, and we will ban any combo piece that consistently lets a deck win before turn 5. So resolving a Tooth and Nail with counterspell backup is an acceptable win, but we will ban N number of faster combo pieces until we achieve this goal."
Resolving Tooth and Nail with counter backup and immediately getting a game-ending combo is the sort of thing that should be regarded as lame on pretty much any turn. Is that interesting on turn 10?
Defining fundamental turns and other metrics like that is the province of competitive formats. I think the French 1v1 list thinks about things like that; the primary Commander banlist isn't interested.
Plus, we'd have to start banning all the iconic fun cards - DTutor, Sol Ring - that are major drivers to the format in the first place. The whole point of the format is to let you play big, splashy, classic cards. Those cards are horribly broken if you don't use them in the spirit in which they are intended, so there's a fundamental disconnect between the goals of the format and what it would take to make it balanced.
^
In other words, it wouldn't be a slippery slope of bannings if an actual standard (probably a certain turn) was set as to what the RC is trying to prevent by banning this combo card but not that one. And since they'll never do that, people will continually bring up the "Why is this low power card banned but not this high power card?" argument, and it will continue to go unanswered. Thus, people will continue to be frustrated by this inconsistency.
It's highly inconsistent if you evaluate it in the context of a competitive format, and yes, you're correct, competitive players looking for a list that sets parameters for what they have to work with to try to break things will always be frustrated. Plus, looking for a single black/white binary reason why each card is banned will not get you far. There isn't a single rule, and the Moxen are banned for different reasons than Biorhythm, which is banned for different reasons than Sundering Titan. If you're looking for a general guide, "can unexpectedly wreck social games being played in the appropriate spirit" is a good start, and that doesn't necessarily mean combo. Of course, there are 6 people on the RC and while we're all pulling in the same direction, there will be fuzziness around the edges in how each of us thinks the best way is to accomplish that. There are cards I don't think should be banned that are, and ones that aren't that I would, given the choice. But I recognize that it's a casual format and there will always be minor variations, and I don't worry about it as long as the general message is clear.
That's my biggest gripe. There are essentially three or four tiers of decks in EDH.
1) Hyper competitive combo decks, and tier 1 control or aggro/control act. For example Hermit druid/Ad nauseam/tuned edric/any reanimated overpowered creature(Jin gitaxus/it that betrays/vorinclex/now banned sundering titan)
1.5) Strong combo decks such as tooth and nail or time stretch decks tend to be good stuff piles and combo/control. These are what players like me who like combo but would hate to play with silly cards play (EX Time vault would be Tier 0 all by itself)
2) Goodstuff and synergy decks. Tend to be good but not overwhelming can beat tier 1/1.5 decks if there are 3 of them around but the top tier decks will still average well over 25% wins
3) Fun stuff decks and theme decks. Casual even by the standards of the RC.
The problem is that PT move you up from Tier 2 to Tier 1.5 all by himself without pushing you to tier 1. So people like me face a choice move up or down on the list. It's sad they ban a card with that much balancing power (Since he is terrible in a Tier 1 deck) got banned.
This is tremendously well expressed. However, it also nicely illustrates the problem - Commander is designed for Tier 2 and 3 decks. If a card is pushing a deck into the high tiers by itself, it's a sign that there's a serious problem, since we'd like that not to happen.
I understand that what you're looking for doesn't match the vision of the format - you want to play Tier 1.5. That's fine, and we give you as many tools as possible to shape it to your own vision. But you have to embrace that flexibility and realize that the bulk of casual players - who you may encounter upon your travels - will have a bad experience playing against your deck (through no fault of your own), because they do not share your vision. Of course, some do, and you should remember where they are so that you can have awesome games together.
- Option number two is sending open letters to Wizards in the hopes that they "take over". This seems like the better option, as they (a) interact with the community better, (b) have funding to investigate lots of playgroups and stores and gather data, (c) would be actually trying to balance the format, (d) have a better grasp of what cards are harmful for the format, (e) actually make cards for the format, (f) would grow the community with advertisement and events, etc.
Wizards has minimal interest in competitive Commander. The whole reason they like and support this format is because it appeals to casual players in ways that all their other formats don't. They already do e, though. The new cards in the Commander product should give you a pretty good idea who they're aiming for with the format; we're not telling them they need to make those cards.
Every once in a rare while, they'll mention a card that hey, maybe we should take a look at. The last three have less than 50 votes in the current banlist poll, *combined*. None of them were suggested because they were unbalanced. They were suggested because they were perceived as possibly problematic in casual play.
Please post reasons when stating your opinion on the banlist, or on the suggestions of other users.
Each poll is open for 72 hours. The date given is the date on which it closed. The question in each case is "Do you think this card should be banned in Commander?"
My understanding of the banlist is that it bans cards that are either horrendously overpowered, or warps the format to be about them entirely.
My understanding is that prices also factor in to the ban list. Many people agree that Sol Ring is better than the original Moxes, for example.
Upheaval is a pretty un-fun card in a colour which is strong enough without having access to such a powerful effect. For that reason, I would love to see Bribery banned.
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EDH Azami (video)
:symw::symb::symg: Teneb (video) Drana (video) (retired)
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:symb::symr: Wort (video) Arcum (video) (retired)
:symr::symg: Stonebrow (video) BShirei (video) WURasputin (video) (retired) RUrabrask (video) WURZedruu (video) (retired) WIsamaru UBGrimgrin UMistform Ultimus (video) UBRGwendlyn (video) URGAnimar (video) RGThromok WBSelenia Standard WUGeist of Saint Traft standard EDH (video) (retired) WUB Battle of Wits!
My personal feeling is that the guy in charge of the ban list bans some things he is too lazy to deal with or when his own playgroup uses something really well and nobody changes their decks to deal with it. Face it, you've got to change according to who you regularly play or you will get spanked.
Banning all the best cards is not what EDH should be about. You want to deal with bribery? Have a way to get your creature back. Counter the bribery. Terminate the creature and reanimate it. It's not that hard, you have 100 cards and you will probably throw in 10 tutors. You can tutor up the best answers. If you don't have answers, you should have a better threat. If you are playing a weak general and deck in a playgroup that plays top tier decks, that's a personal problem, not a problem with the format.
Honestly, don't be lazy with your deckbuilding just because you don't want to deal with powerful cards. We could remove cards from the format until all we are left with are vanilla creatures and the worst spells, but that's no fun.
Library of Alexandria gives you limited card draw and will only be truly significant early in the game. Decks which need to draw lots of cards have much better ways to draw. I wouldn't even play Library in most decks as it is too limited. I don't even care whether it gets unbanned because I would cut that card from all but artifact decks or decks where I had to have more cards in hand.
Lion's Eye Diamond is really not overpowered. It is not going to piss people off when they see it. Best use is to respond to a tutor and maybe it could do some cool stuff. It is 1000% inferior to Mishra's Workshop, which one of my friends plays in his Karn deck, which is certainly good, but doesn't become a huge factor in the game.
I already made the case for Kokusho; 5 damage to all opponents can be obtained with crappy spells like Earthquake. Life gain is pretty meaningless in a format where wins are usually caused by combos, general damage, or arbitrarily large numbers. Who cares what life total you are at when Disciple of the Vault deals infinite damage to you in Sharuum, or when Wort produces 300 4/4 tokens? It's a good card but hardly game-changing, especially when you get attacked for the next 2 turns to bring you down to everybody else's level. And ever heard of a counterspell, removal that exiles, etc?
I agree Upheavel is just annoying in EDH - with 2-4 hour games being standard, nobody wants to have to start over.
I might like to see Gifts Ungiven unbanned, it does some cool stuff and might open up some really interesting plays, especially for reanimator decks.
I might like to see Gifts Ungiven unbanned, it does some cool stuff and might open up some really interesting plays, especially for reanimator decks.
Gifts ungiven is banned for a reason. You tutor up your wincon and two ways of getting it back. It's one card that wins games alone. It should stay banned.
And anyone who hasn't played against Kokusho doesn't understand why he's banned. The enormous amounts of life swing he provides is ridiculous to deal with. Combined with the important fact that he's a creature. Being easily recurred is the main issue of Kokusho.
I can see why Panoptic Mirror is banned, because it allows you to go infinite if you imprint a Time Warp effect on it.
I agree that Kokusho should be unbanned as a general, as I don't mind getting drained for 5 as much as I do getting shut down under a Yosei lock. Sure, Kokusho's abuseable, but you need tons of mana to do it, and mono black is very easily disrupted if not left alone.
Channel could easily be unbanned and Emrakul banned in its spot. Upheavel and Biorhythm should stay banned as they are ridiculous in this formet.
I would like to know why Kokusho, the Evening Star is on the list. As a general I guess I could see the arguement...but I don't understand why he can't be in a deck. Originally people pointed to the arguement that Magister Sphinx is legal. But now they have printed Exsanguinate. From my understanding...Kokusho, the Evening Star was banned because he makes the life totals swing to much in multiplayer.
Exsanguinate = 4BB = 4 (Life) x 2 (Both + & - Life Totals) x Y (Number of Players) = Life Change caused by Exsanguinate.
The difference here is that Exsanguinate is scaleable. On the flip side...Kokusho, the Evening Star is recurable. I see these cards being very similar. Also note that I am not asking for the banning of Exsanguinate...I am asking for the unbanning of Kokusho, the Evening Star as part of your 99 cards.
I don't understand why you would ban individual cards like this.
Lion's Eye Diamond - This is a build around type of card. This card requires a good portion of the deck to be based around it in order to abuse its power. My problem here is that there are tons of cards and combos like this spread throughout both EDH and Magic in general.
Fast Bond - This is a single card in a deck. Yes it gets really stupid if mixed with Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland / Strip Mine. But I think this is more of an arguement for the banning of Crucible of Worlds...and I don't think that needs to be banned either.
I just want to use this card. I can very much see why it is banned...I just want to play with the card so...this is my complaining on the subject. Stupid Iona, Shield of Emeria.
Really? Has anyone ever had this played against them? This is probably the most frustrating card in Magic. Only 1 type of player that uses this card. Dicks. The only reason why this would be in a deck is if you are planning on recurring this as often as possible. BAN THIS CARD!!!!
Banning this card is a direct hit against Karn decks. I think it is fine. There is no real reason to ban this card. While Karn may be good...it isn't Over Powered.
I agree with the unbanning of Kokusho, as long as he is banned as a general. The lifeswing is immense, however as pointed out the same type of life swing can be done with exsanguinate. Additionally, much more degenerate cards are still unbanned (sol ring enables a turn 2 numot....-.-).
I vote for unbanning Kokusho for use in deck, but remained banned for use as a General.
Useful, but with recurring nightmare banned, there's no longer an effective way to cycle him into and out of play that doesn't allow for multiple responses from opponents or require 4-5 other cards. I don't believe it's banworthy with the easy reanimation gone as well.
Staff of Domination
With rofellos banned as a general, I don't see why this was banned along with him.
Necropotence
Really surprised this one isn't there. I know, I know, the cards aren't instant like bargain, but it doesn't really matter since it costs 3 less and is Zurable. It's way easier for a Necro player to drop it earlier and get a huge leg up on their opponents in multiple deck styles, and both players are only going to be limited really by the amount of mana they have if they know how to use the enchantments.
Painters Servant
A much more interesting card than either grindstone or iona, shield of emeria. I wouldn't mind if both of those were banned and the servant was unbanned if they are that much of a problem. Iona isn't all that great in multiplayer IMO on her own (people playing white, black, artifacts), while the servant can enable a bunch of things without being degenerate.
Library of Alexandria is completely absurd CA. Once you have it going, it doesn't stop. And arguments about a card being 1 in a 100 card pile are completely null and void so long as any of the umpteen namable tutors remain legal. There are also many, many ways to fill your hand up to 7 easily even if it's gotten wrecked, life from the loam in particular.
Upheaval is basically obliterate without the annoying drawback of blowing up your stuff. You play it, float a bunch of mana, then replay all your stuff (artifact mana, especially), and drop a land. You then basically mind twist your opponents and feed all your discarded cards to a psychatog, or just play all your lands with a fastbond, and reanimate your opponents discarded fatties. That's the basic idea, anyway. Your opponents end up repeating their turn 1's while you're working with 5+ mana.
I'm glad that I'm not alone in wanting Kokusho banned. I love playing with powerful cards, and while Kokusho is definitely a powerful card, it's far from being broken. Pro tip: If you want to avoid Kokusho overcentralizing the game, run graveyard hate.
As for Painter's Servant: Both Grindstone and Iona when comboed with Painter's Servant are extremely oppressive and easy to set up -- the former is colorless so that any deck can play it, and the latter is set up with Defense of the Heart or an entwined Tooth and Nail. Yes, I know Painter's Servant does fuel a lot of fun combos and synergies with the likes of generals such as Teysa, Oona, and Jaya Ballard, but there were the people that were abusing the ridiculousness of the Painterstone and Painter/Iona combos. So while many people were using Painter's Servant "fairly", others were abusing its degeneracy. It's sort of the same problem with Protean Hulk in why it got banned, although somewhat less extreme.
So when it came down to it, the RC decided to answer all the problems and complaints about Painterstone and Painter/Iona by just banning the one card that was responsible for it all -- Painter's Servant. This is one of the few decisions I can agree with the RC. This keeps them from having to ban any other additional cards that get released because of their relevancy with Painter's Servant. Case in point: All is Dust. After Painter's Servant was banned, All is Dust was printed like a few months later. Painter's Servant + All is Dust is like an Obliterate on crack that *any* deck can use. And I can bet you money that tons of people would be complaining about that. All is Dust pretty much sealed the fate of Painter's Servant.
I know painter/stone was too good, and Iona/Servant was also too good. It's just that without Servant, both Iona and the Grindstone are very uninteresting cards. I'd rather see dumb cards like them leave the format, than lose an interesting one that has some valid applications beyond torturing your opponents or not being run at all.
Also, if you ask me, cards like obliterate, jokulhaups, apocalypse, and the hard casted form of decree of annihilation should be banned. Not because they're so powerful, but because they're so goddamn annoying. They don't really need it, but I'd rather suck a biorhythm and shuffle up than sit there hoping to top deck lands because some douche dropped an obliterate "because I could".
Edit: I don't believe they should actually be banned, just that 99% of the time I've seen them played, it's as a board wipe, not as a prelude to game winning.
Also, if you ask me, cards like obliterate, jokulhaups, apocalypse, and the hard casted form of decree of annihilation should be banned. Not because they're so powerful, but because they're so goddamn annoying. They don't really need it, but I'd rather suck a biorhythm and shuffle up than sit there hoping to top deck lands because some douche dropped an obliterate "because I could".
Surely you jest. If anything, those are exactly the type of cards red needs.
@jimbo the solution is to houserule those cards with a clause that lets every player punch you in the face every turn you fail to win after casting them.
@ Meritocracy Truth of the highest magnitude.
I agree that Kokusho's banning is unfair. The life swing he causes is comparable to exsanguinate. And the RCs reasoning for banning (the game becomes all about who can reanimate him the most) him can be applied to a dozen cards that are better/more dangerous. Also it really bugs me that a scion of ur dragon deck cant play all the dragon cycles since one key member is banned.
I'm torn on staff of domination. Its such a good utility card for colors like red and green that lack some of those effects. But the problem with it is that it power's draws and drives a jillion infinite combos by itself.
I am being sarcastic. Those cards, when played, cause people to simply shuffle up, start a new game, and tell the player who played them to ☺☺☺☺ off; they ruin a game. Biorhythm is much more pleasant to play against than obliterate. OK, we're all dead? Let's play again.
Red, as a color, needs cards that generate CA like godo, bandit warlord or mess with combat math like anger and war's toll. Not a red version of shahrazad or biorhythm. If you want to hate lands, ruination, price of progress, and blood moon should do you fine, and they're still enough to cause the red player, already very weak when it comes to metagaming, to absorb an enormous amount of very legitimate hate.
Nice ninja troll attempt, but you've been caught.
Biorhythm is a near-guaranteed game-ender. Obliterate? You can easily recover from that in a few turns if your mana base is set up properly. The only colors that have trouble setting up again are Blue and, ironically, Red. Neither of them have efficient graveyard recursion/mana acceleration to recuperate from being board-wiped that hard. Blue decks have something of an edge, but it doesn't matter if the Obliterate is timed right.
What makes Obliterate stupid is Jhoria. As someone who has been on the receiving end of several Jhoria-suspended Obliterate, I can assure you that it is a pain in the ass to recover (a mid or late-game Obliterate is an OK reason to scoop, but an early-game one is stupid because the game just became a race to get the first bomb on the table because no one is going to be able to stop it for a few turns).
I'm with Jimbo in thinking the red mass sweepers are the most annoying cards in the format. Most of the time when I see people use them, they don't have a plan at all. "But he was going to wrath my creatures away." or some such nonsense. I don't think Br should be unbanned or anything like that. Idk, Upheaval is better than the red wraths, but that's why I'm more okay with it. You play it and then you win, most of the red ones get played just to keep someone from losing, Jhoira aside.
My opinion on koko is that he is no more powerful than emmy and no more game bending either. Both are very powerful but also very easy to answer and nowhere near as powerful as an efficient infinite combo.
My opinion on painters servant is that it is a very interesting card that yes can lead to a two card combo...but there are sooo many other options that just banning one seems pointless.
My opinion on staff...sure you win with infinite mana but if you have infinite mana you can win in sooo many other ways that banning staff seems pointless. (My favorite way to win with infinite mana is myr matrix btw )
My opinion on metelworker is that it is still not op and should be unbanned.
My opinion on tinker...i was thinking about it the other day and while i have never actually played with it (banned before i got the chance ) i cant see it being any more powerful than bribery, the only really cool thing to get is like dc or forge or magister sphinx, these pale in comparison to emmy or terrasstradon imo. I guess i can see it going either way but i would personally like to see it unbanned.
My opinion on tinker...i was thinking about it the other day and while i have never actually played with it (banned before i got the chance ) i cant see it being any more powerful than bribery, the only really cool thing to get is like dc or forge or magister sphinx, these pale in comparison to emmy or terrasstradon imo. I guess i can see it going either way but i would personally like to see it unbanned.
Tinker is a tutor that gets your item into play. By the time your opponents know what your getting it's too late to counter it and you've won. If every game is decided by who gets the turn 2 darksteel collosus or inkwell Leviathan then the format is going to get broken. You could say the chances are only 7/100 but you have to take into account the weird mulligan rule, additional tutors for tinker, and the fact that it is a multiplayer format so the chance of having someone that will do that is multiplied by how many people are playing.
Although I see Lion Eye and Salvagers being a strong infinite mana combo, I don't see why it's any better than all the other infinite mana combo's throughout magic. Also, on an aside, it forces you to play the seccond worst color in the format.
Edit: Why is staff banned... they axed the main offender (roffelos) already.
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Tinker is a tutor that gets your item into play. By the time your opponents know what your getting it's too late to counter it and you've won. If every game is decided by who gets the turn 2 darksteel collosus or inkwell Leviathan then the format is going to get broken. You could say the chances are only 7/100 but you have to take into account the weird mulligan rule, additional tutors for tinker, and the fact that it is a multiplayer format so the chance of having someone that will do that is multiplied by how many people are playing.
DC and inkwell are not that hard to deal with, no worse than emmy, i would almost rather have a serras ascendant tbh. And the fact that its multiplayer makes them even more underwhelming cause i seriously doubt a single dc will take down 3 people or more, thats like 12 swings. and since its mutiplayer the odds of someone having the counter/wrath/exile effect increase as well. I believe the card is very very very powerful but not worthy of a ban.
Library is an insane card engine, one of the best magic cards, and extremely expensive to boot
The rest of the cards that everyone is confused about- they are banned because they are degenerate. You'd realize your deck can be so much better with them, then suddenly you're tutoring it up every game, you're building your deck around it, and then your opponents start building their deck to counter it.
Those seem to be the most problematic cards I have seen outside of the current banlist.
I think you really want to be more specific for suggesting Genesis Wave and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. You are saying that both of these big mana spells should be banned because they are really broken if you have lots of mana when you can eventually cast them?
You must get X + GGG mana to cast that spell for an uncertain gain. At X + 3 mana, ask yourself if there are better stuff to cast. Let X = 6. Six permanents revealed of casting cost 6 or less can be pretty good if you're lucky though in most green decks, you'll probably reveal a few lands, one or two cards with casting cost 7 and above and maybe a few decent spells with casting cost 6 and below. Decent... but certainly not broken.
If you unfortunately reveal something like a legendary Eldrazi with casting cost less than X, your whole graveyard may be shuffled back. This could be bad if you're planning to do use your graveyard for your evil purposes
Also, at 9 mana, there are other good spells floating around ranging from a Green Myojin to something like Gelatinous Genesis. Note that if you reveal either of the above cards during your Genesis Wave reveal, they end up in your graveyard and you will have to pick em' up if you really need them with cards like Eternal Witness.
There should be a special Banlist FAQ on the Eldrazis but here's the Reader's Digest version: -
It costs 15 mana to cast. Now, at 15 mana, I think it is reasonable to expect something which tiptoes on the line of awesomeness.
Related to the above point, if you DON'T have 15 mana during the early parts of the game, chances are, you are holding an overpriced dead card
In a multiplayer group, if at least one player runs Bribery, there goes your tentacly ones.
This list is not exclusive, of course but I think that's the gist of the argument.
In both the case of the Eldrazis and Genesis Wave, it is not even good in most decks that can run them; indeed, you will need a particular build if you really want to abuse it.
Library of Alexandria is not too strong for multiplayer EDH.... why? because its legal in the French format of EDH which is played 1v1.... and no one can argue that Lbrary is a stronger card in multiplayer compared to 1v1
a few cards which are banned in the french 1v1 list which are not banned in mutiplayer EDH:
Lion's eye diamond is a safe ban. No one ever uses this card 'honestly' - it's purely for unfair things like storm decks and auriok salvager recursion. So even if it isn't format warping or crucial to certain types of unfun decks....it's not like anyone's going to miss it. Cards like worldgorger dragon and staff of domination work the same way. No one uses those for face value, they use them to combo out.
Cards like power artifact on the other hand, do have legitimate applications. You can't just ban everything that is part of an infinite combo...there are hundreds, maybe thousands of such cards.
I don't want to see library unbanned. It's just so damned expensive and rare, and good enough to belong in EVERY edh deck ever. It should stay banned for the same reason as the P9 - it creates a barrier to entry. And yes, I know workshop, bazaar, etc cost more and are legal, but there are very few EDH decks that actually want to run workshop or bazaar. Every deck wants moxen, every blue deck wants ancestral and time walk, and every deck wants library.
In my mind, protean hulk, kokusho, panoptic mirror, and sway of the stars warrant unban consideration. And I wouldn't object to necro, sol ring, and mana crypt getting the axe.
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This thread is for the discussion of the official multiplayer banlist. If you believe that a certain card should or shouldn't be banned, discuss it here.
The Official Banlist
Most Recent Banlist Update Announcement
January 18, 2016
Single-Card Banning/Unbanning Threads
Emrakul (banned, thread closed)
Shahrazad (banned, thread closed)
Kokusho/Primeval Titan/Consecrated Sphinx (one banned, one unbanned, thread closed)
Other Helpful Resources
The philosophy behind the banlist (updated 09/18/12)
French banlist explanation
Ban list poll #1
Each poll is open for 72 hours. The date given is the date on which it closed. The question in each case is "Do you think this card should be banned in Commander?"
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 174 (41.73%)
Unbanned: 186 (44.60%)
Unsure: 57 (13.67%)
Total votes: 417
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Banned
Banned: 143 (40.51%)
Unbanned: 178 (50.42%)
Unsure: 32 (9.07%)
Total votes: 353
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Banned
Banned: 105 (47.73%)
Unbanned: 99 (45.00%)
Unsure: 16 (7.27%)
Total votes: 220
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 44 (16.67%)
Unbanned: 200 (75.76%)
Unsure: 20 (7.58%)
Total votes: 264
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Banned
Banned: 127 (48.11%)
Unbanned: 114 (43.18%)
Unsure: 23 (8.71%)
Total votes: 264
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 33 (16.92%)
Unbanned: 151 (77.44%)
Unsure: 11 (5.64%)
Total votes: 195
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 140 (38.89%)
Unbanned: 197 (54.72%)
Unsure: 23 (6.39%)
Total votes: 360
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 50 (15.97%)
Unbanned: 242 (77.32%)
Unsure: 21 (6.71%)
Total votes: 313
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Banned
Banned: 157 (55.09%)
Unbanned: 106 (37.19%)
Unsure: 22 (7.72%)
Total votes: 285
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Banned
Banned: 79 (31.23%)
Unbanned: 154 (60.87%)
Unsure: 20 (7.91%)
Total votes: 253
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 128 (50.59%)
Unbanned: 109 (43.08%)
Unsure: 16 (6.32%)
Total votes: 253
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 38 (19.00%)
Unbanned: 148 (74.00%)
Unsure: 14 (7.00%)
Total votes: 200
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Banned
Banned: 223 (46.85%)
Unbanned: 214 (44.96%)
Unsure: 39 (8.19%)
Total votes: 476
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Banned as a commander
Banned: 14 (6.90%)
Banned as a commander 100 (49.26%)
Unbanned: 77 (37.93%)
Unsure: 12 (5.91%)
Total votes: 203
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 55 (21.48%)
Unbanned: 184 (71.88%)
Unsure: 17 (6.64%)
Total votes: 256
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 130 (40.88%)
Unbanned: 168 (52.83%)
Unsure: 20 (6.29%)
Total votes: 318
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 113 (32.38%)
Unbanned: 208 (59.60%)
Unsure: 28 (8.02%)
Total votes: 349
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 6 (1.81%)
Banned as a commander 98 (29.61%)
Unbanned: 213 (64.35%)
Unsure: 14 (4.23%)
Total votes: 331
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Banned
Banned: 110 (44.00%)
Unbanned: 116 (46.40%)
Unsure: 24 (9.60%)
Total votes: 250
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Banned: 70 (24.05%)
Unbanned: 207 (71.13%)
Unsure: 14 (4.81%)
Total votes: 291
Detailed results
Legality at time of poll: Legal
Total votes: 56
Detailed results
My understanding is that prices also factor in to the ban list. Many people agree that Sol Ring is better than the original Moxes, for example.
Upheaval is a pretty un-fun card in a colour which is strong enough without having access to such a powerful effect. For that reason, I would love to see Bribery banned.
EDH
Azami (video)
:symw::symb::symg: Teneb (video)
Drana (video) (retired)
:symw::symr: Brion (video)
:symb::symr: Wort (video)
Arcum (video) (retired)
:symr::symg: Stonebrow (video)
B Shirei (video)
WU Rasputin (video) (retired)
R Urabrask (video)
WUR Zedruu (video) (retired)
W Isamaru
UB Grimgrin
U Mistform Ultimus (video)
UBR Gwendlyn (video)
URG Animar (video)
RG Thromok
WB Selenia
Standard
WU Geist of Saint Traft standard EDH (video) (retired)
WUB Battle of Wits!
Banning all the best cards is not what EDH should be about. You want to deal with bribery? Have a way to get your creature back. Counter the bribery. Terminate the creature and reanimate it. It's not that hard, you have 100 cards and you will probably throw in 10 tutors. You can tutor up the best answers. If you don't have answers, you should have a better threat. If you are playing a weak general and deck in a playgroup that plays top tier decks, that's a personal problem, not a problem with the format.
Honestly, don't be lazy with your deckbuilding just because you don't want to deal with powerful cards. We could remove cards from the format until all we are left with are vanilla creatures and the worst spells, but that's no fun.
Library of Alexandria gives you limited card draw and will only be truly significant early in the game. Decks which need to draw lots of cards have much better ways to draw. I wouldn't even play Library in most decks as it is too limited. I don't even care whether it gets unbanned because I would cut that card from all but artifact decks or decks where I had to have more cards in hand.
Lion's Eye Diamond is really not overpowered. It is not going to piss people off when they see it. Best use is to respond to a tutor and maybe it could do some cool stuff. It is 1000% inferior to Mishra's Workshop, which one of my friends plays in his Karn deck, which is certainly good, but doesn't become a huge factor in the game.
I already made the case for Kokusho; 5 damage to all opponents can be obtained with crappy spells like Earthquake. Life gain is pretty meaningless in a format where wins are usually caused by combos, general damage, or arbitrarily large numbers. Who cares what life total you are at when Disciple of the Vault deals infinite damage to you in Sharuum, or when Wort produces 300 4/4 tokens? It's a good card but hardly game-changing, especially when you get attacked for the next 2 turns to bring you down to everybody else's level. And ever heard of a counterspell, removal that exiles, etc?
I agree Upheavel is just annoying in EDH - with 2-4 hour games being standard, nobody wants to have to start over.
I might like to see Gifts Ungiven unbanned, it does some cool stuff and might open up some really interesting plays, especially for reanimator decks.
(Multiplayer)
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
WUBSharuum the Hegemon
(American 1v1)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking Grave
WUGDerevi
Gifts ungiven is banned for a reason. You tutor up your wincon and two ways of getting it back. It's one card that wins games alone. It should stay banned.
And anyone who hasn't played against Kokusho doesn't understand why he's banned. The enormous amounts of life swing he provides is ridiculous to deal with. Combined with the important fact that he's a creature. Being easily recurred is the main issue of Kokusho.
:symg::symu::symb: Vorosh
:symw::symu::symg: Phelddagrif
:symw::symu::symg: Jenara
:symu::symu::symu: Azami
:symb::symu::symb:DePietro
:symg::symb::symg:Savra
I agree that Kokusho should be unbanned as a general, as I don't mind getting drained for 5 as much as I do getting shut down under a Yosei lock. Sure, Kokusho's abuseable, but you need tons of mana to do it, and mono black is very easily disrupted if not left alone.
Channel could easily be unbanned and Emrakul banned in its spot. Upheavel and Biorhythm should stay banned as they are ridiculous in this formet.
Kokusho, the Evening Star - 4BB = 5 (Life) x 2 (Both + & - Life Totals) x Y (Number of Players) = Life Change caused by Kokusho, the Evening Star.
Exsanguinate = 4BB = 4 (Life) x 2 (Both + & - Life Totals) x Y (Number of Players) = Life Change caused by Exsanguinate.
The difference here is that Exsanguinate is scaleable. On the flip side...Kokusho, the Evening Star is recurable. I see these cards being very similar. Also note that I am not asking for the banning of Exsanguinate...I am asking for the unbanning of Kokusho, the Evening Star as part of your 99 cards.
Lion's Eye Diamond - This is a build around type of card. This card requires a good portion of the deck to be based around it in order to abuse its power. My problem here is that there are tons of cards and combos like this spread throughout both EDH and Magic in general.
Fast Bond - This is a single card in a deck. Yes it gets really stupid if mixed with Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland / Strip Mine. But I think this is more of an arguement for the banning of Crucible of Worlds...and I don't think that needs to be banned either.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I vote for unbanning Kokusho for use in deck, but remained banned for use as a General.
My H/W list
Kokusho
Staff of Domination
Necropotence
Painters Servant
Lion's Eye Diamond was probably banned because of Golden Grahams, combo with Auriok Salvager and the mirrodin spellbombs. Not really sure it's so powerful it needs the axe, either.
Library of Alexandria is completely absurd CA. Once you have it going, it doesn't stop. And arguments about a card being 1 in a 100 card pile are completely null and void so long as any of the umpteen namable tutors remain legal. There are also many, many ways to fill your hand up to 7 easily even if it's gotten wrecked, life from the loam in particular.
Upheaval is basically obliterate without the annoying drawback of blowing up your stuff. You play it, float a bunch of mana, then replay all your stuff (artifact mana, especially), and drop a land. You then basically mind twist your opponents and feed all your discarded cards to a psychatog, or just play all your lands with a fastbond, and reanimate your opponents discarded fatties. That's the basic idea, anyway. Your opponents end up repeating their turn 1's while you're working with 5+ mana.
As for Painter's Servant: Both Grindstone and Iona when comboed with Painter's Servant are extremely oppressive and easy to set up -- the former is colorless so that any deck can play it, and the latter is set up with Defense of the Heart or an entwined Tooth and Nail. Yes, I know Painter's Servant does fuel a lot of fun combos and synergies with the likes of generals such as Teysa, Oona, and Jaya Ballard, but there were the people that were abusing the ridiculousness of the Painterstone and Painter/Iona combos. So while many people were using Painter's Servant "fairly", others were abusing its degeneracy. It's sort of the same problem with Protean Hulk in why it got banned, although somewhat less extreme.
So when it came down to it, the RC decided to answer all the problems and complaints about Painterstone and Painter/Iona by just banning the one card that was responsible for it all -- Painter's Servant. This is one of the few decisions I can agree with the RC. This keeps them from having to ban any other additional cards that get released because of their relevancy with Painter's Servant. Case in point: All is Dust. After Painter's Servant was banned, All is Dust was printed like a few months later. Painter's Servant + All is Dust is like an Obliterate on crack that *any* deck can use. And I can bet you money that tons of people would be complaining about that. All is Dust pretty much sealed the fate of Painter's Servant.
Also, if you ask me, cards like obliterate, jokulhaups, apocalypse, and the hard casted form of decree of annihilation should be banned. Not because they're so powerful, but because they're so goddamn annoying. They don't really need it, but I'd rather suck a biorhythm and shuffle up than sit there hoping to top deck lands because some douche dropped an obliterate "because I could".
Edit: I don't believe they should actually be banned, just that 99% of the time I've seen them played, it's as a board wipe, not as a prelude to game winning.
@ Meritocracy Truth of the highest magnitude.
I agree that Kokusho's banning is unfair. The life swing he causes is comparable to exsanguinate. And the RCs reasoning for banning (the game becomes all about who can reanimate him the most) him can be applied to a dozen cards that are better/more dangerous. Also it really bugs me that a scion of ur dragon deck cant play all the dragon cycles since one key member is banned.
I'm torn on staff of domination. Its such a good utility card for colors like red and green that lack some of those effects. But the problem with it is that it power's draws and drives a jillion infinite combos by itself.
Wort/ Jor Kadeen/ Rasputin/BWG Karador/ Rakdos/ Edric/ Dralnu/ BBMikaeus
Mirror of Fate collection counter 98
Nice ninja troll attempt, but you've been caught.
Biorhythm is a near-guaranteed game-ender. Obliterate? You can easily recover from that in a few turns if your mana base is set up properly. The only colors that have trouble setting up again are Blue and, ironically, Red. Neither of them have efficient graveyard recursion/mana acceleration to recuperate from being board-wiped that hard. Blue decks have something of an edge, but it doesn't matter if the Obliterate is timed right.
What makes Obliterate stupid is Jhoria. As someone who has been on the receiving end of several Jhoria-suspended Obliterate, I can assure you that it is a pain in the ass to recover (a mid or late-game Obliterate is an OK reason to scoop, but an early-game one is stupid because the game just became a race to get the first bomb on the table because no one is going to be able to stop it for a few turns).
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Annoying is a way to win. Griefers exist.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Edit: Oh and unban Staff of Domination.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
My opinion on painters servant is that it is a very interesting card that yes can lead to a two card combo...but there are sooo many other options that just banning one seems pointless.
My opinion on staff...sure you win with infinite mana but if you have infinite mana you can win in sooo many other ways that banning staff seems pointless. (My favorite way to win with infinite mana is myr matrix btw )
My opinion on metelworker is that it is still not op and should be unbanned.
My opinion on tinker...i was thinking about it the other day and while i have never actually played with it (banned before i got the chance ) i cant see it being any more powerful than bribery, the only really cool thing to get is like dc or forge or magister sphinx, these pale in comparison to emmy or terrasstradon imo. I guess i can see it going either way but i would personally like to see it unbanned.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
Tinker is a tutor that gets your item into play. By the time your opponents know what your getting it's too late to counter it and you've won. If every game is decided by who gets the turn 2 darksteel collosus or inkwell Leviathan then the format is going to get broken. You could say the chances are only 7/100 but you have to take into account the weird mulligan rule, additional tutors for tinker, and the fact that it is a multiplayer format so the chance of having someone that will do that is multiplied by how many people are playing.
Those seem to be the most problematic cards I have seen outside of the current banlist.
Edit: Why is staff banned... they axed the main offender (roffelos) already.
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome signature!
DC and inkwell are not that hard to deal with, no worse than emmy, i would almost rather have a serras ascendant tbh. And the fact that its multiplayer makes them even more underwhelming cause i seriously doubt a single dc will take down 3 people or more, thats like 12 swings. and since its mutiplayer the odds of someone having the counter/wrath/exile effect increase as well. I believe the card is very very very powerful but not worthy of a ban.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
The rest of the cards that everyone is confused about- they are banned because they are degenerate. You'd realize your deck can be so much better with them, then suddenly you're tutoring it up every game, you're building your deck around it, and then your opponents start building their deck to counter it.
I think you really want to be more specific for suggesting Genesis Wave and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. You are saying that both of these big mana spells should be banned because they are really broken if you have lots of mana when you can eventually cast them?
Genesis Wave is good but not "broken good".
There should be a special Banlist FAQ on the Eldrazis but here's the Reader's Digest version: -
This list is not exclusive, of course but I think that's the gist of the argument.
In both the case of the Eldrazis and Genesis Wave, it is not even good in most decks that can run them; indeed, you will need a particular build if you really want to abuse it.
a few cards which are banned in the french 1v1 list which are not banned in mutiplayer EDH:
Id argue that all of those are stronger then Library of Alexandria in Multiplayer EDH
Cards like power artifact on the other hand, do have legitimate applications. You can't just ban everything that is part of an infinite combo...there are hundreds, maybe thousands of such cards.
I don't want to see library unbanned. It's just so damned expensive and rare, and good enough to belong in EVERY edh deck ever. It should stay banned for the same reason as the P9 - it creates a barrier to entry. And yes, I know workshop, bazaar, etc cost more and are legal, but there are very few EDH decks that actually want to run workshop or bazaar. Every deck wants moxen, every blue deck wants ancestral and time walk, and every deck wants library.
In my mind, protean hulk, kokusho, panoptic mirror, and sway of the stars warrant unban consideration. And I wouldn't object to necro, sol ring, and mana crypt getting the axe.