While this is more on game situation discussion, Prophet is an atrocious topdeck if you've got a light hand and your commander isn't naturally card advantage.
This part goes for a lot of cards. Birthing Pod is undeniably good, but topdeck it late on, and you're not happy. Wood Elves? Same thing.
The most frustrating thing to me when playing against prophet is that it slows the game down to a crawl. The player with PoK will always have something to do every turn (mana sink, draw effect, flash in stuff). Provided that prophet is played in the right situation it will win the game for sure but it will take a couple of very boring turn where someone is decksturbating every turn. I agree that on its own it does not do a whole lot and dies easily, but it is the most frustrating card that I see the most often right now in any meta. I'd add Cyclonic Rift to this list because most of the time it is used as a "I hope to get back into this game so I rift" instead of rift to win. This card slows down games so much its almost unbearable.
The PoK player taking forever sounds like more of an individual issue with that player and not a problem with the card itself. Long turns aren't a reason for banning either.
On the bright side, it gives you more time to ponder the value of spot removal while they are playing cards.
Between Reality Shift, Pongify, Rabid Hybridization, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares and Oblation, I really wonder what other instant-speed spot removal I need to play in my Rasputin deck before the "RUN MORE ANSWERS" people are statisfied.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Between Reality Shift, Pongify, Rabid Hybridization, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares and Oblation, I really wonder what other instant-speed spot removal I need to play in my Rasputin deck before the "RUN MORE ANSWERS" people are statisfied.
They never will be. Sometimes you don't have an answer and you lose. Shuffle up and go again.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I personally think that the dies-to-removal defense of PoK isn't valid enough, though I don't think it should be banned. (There are ways you can get rid of something like Emrakul, and he is banned for good reason.)
PoK is definitely board-warping, but its strength lies in the cards you use with it, unlike Primeval Titan (not to beat a dead horse). It's not a case of something like Demonic Tutor, which basically says "you run this if you run any black", competitively speaking. That's I think ultimately why it shouldn't be banned. Even though it helps out almost every possible build that can run it, the dynamics of the card can make games more complex because it feeds into the diversity of the format. It doesn't shut people out of the game. Super-annoying single creatures, against which you HAVE to be prepared when fighting a certain deck type (i.e. Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator for combo decks) really take the fun out of the format, because they reduce the diversity of a certain playstyle to a singularity. EDH is about variety and weird things happening, and if something really crazy broken happens, that's fine, as long as it doesn't come to define a certain playstyle. (That's personally what I think ruined YGO for me, at the risk of sounding like a propagandistic type. Sorry if I do.)
I understand that I might have crossed the lines between casual and competitive play here, but overall, it's a casual format, so I personally define these boundaries pretty fuzzily. Of course, any format is not going to be fun with format-warping cards, but in EDH such cards suck away the diversity that makes it such a great format. Prophet just isn't strong enough to do that, in my eyes.
Between Reality Shift, Pongify, Rabid Hybridization, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares and Oblation, I really wonder what other instant-speed spot removal I need to play in my Rasputin deck before the "RUN MORE ANSWERS" people are statisfied.
You could be running psionic blast or sunlance
PoK is a creature, the easiest to remove of all permanents, it's fragile, and it's effect has no use until your turn, or if they have nothing in hand
The untap effect can be emulated with seedborn, so thats not the problem people are having, people are mad at the flash enabler, so run more cards that don't let people play spells on your turn, there are too many ways to stop PoK to warrant a ban on it
especially in a 3+ player game, if 2 or 3 opponents cannot kill 1 single 3 toughness creature, maybe it's not the PoK that's too strong, maybe your deckbuilding skills need to be improved
EDIT: completly unrelated, and I don't know if it is just me, but this whole topic is not showing me any new posts, even if there are some. Do you guys have the same issue or not?
Me too. Is anyone seeing the blue arrow for new posts?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
EDIT: completly unrelated, and I don't know if it is just me, but this whole topic is not showing me any new posts, even if there are some. Do you guys have the same issue or not?
Me too. Is anyone seeing the blue arrow for new posts?
I have the same issue as well. Maybe it's because some of the content was moved to the color discussion thread?
I have the same issue as well. Maybe it's because some of the content was moved to the color discussion thread?
I think that's it since the last comment read number is probably higher than the post number since so many pages got pulled out, it should fix itself after a few more pages of comments.
On topic Prophet of Kruphix is a really strong enabler however IMO it is a huge archenemy play so with the hate of the table headed at it's controller it balances out. For blue green I think it is one of their stronger cards but I don't feel it's ban worthy.
Between Reality Shift, Pongify, Rabid Hybridization, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares and Oblation, I really wonder what other instant-speed spot removal I need to play in my Rasputin deck before the "RUN MORE ANSWERS" people are statisfied.
Oh yeah, the counterspells. I have 7 non-situational ones of 3 and below mana. I also pack 6 boardwipes and 3 mass bounce cards. That's 22 answers, almost a quarter of my deck, and that's not counting a few corner cases. I'd think that's enough. Because aside from answers, I'd also like to play my own threats from time to time. And I know I'm not alone in that.
Look, the point I've made about PoK is not that it's invincible or anything, but it's like superglue. It does so many things for a deck while appearing enough, and I think that due to how PoK glues UGx decks together, those decks have since its release been pushed even further up ahead on the obnoxious state.
PoK slows games down due to how many more actions its player can take (This is generally speaking not a player issue, but it does get really obnoxious to every time "WAIT, before you draw a card, I do some crap. WAIT, before you untap, at the end of his turn, I do more stuff.") and, as noted, turns the game into mass archenemy. Of all non-hexproof/shroud creatures, PoK has the best defense available - the constant open mana which Seedborn Muse also offers. Unlike Seedborn Muse, however, PoK also offers the option to further advance your board position WITHOUT the help of other cards already on the field. Seedborn needs Teferi or Leyline for it.
I'd like to challenge people who rely on PoK to try out a few games without it. See just how much it can mess up your game if you can't reliably get that combination of abilities on the field anymore. With how easy it is to get on the field and protect, it's very easy to fall into a deckbuilding 'trap' which focusses around the Prophet, or at least abusing it for just one turn.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Between Reality Shift, Pongify, Rabid Hybridization, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares and Oblation, I really wonder what other instant-speed spot removal I need to play in my Rasputin deck before the "RUN MORE ANSWERS" people are statisfied.
That's only, uh, 6. I mean, not that I don't sometimes run decks with that few, but it's not exactly a lot. Not that "dies to spot removal" is a reason to leave something unbanned, but it's sort of odd imo to say "look at all this spot removal I'm running! will you never be satisfied?!?!?" when it's only 6% of your deck. Many of my control decks will go as high as 20% on spot removal alone, plus board wipes, counters, and stax.
If you recognized that a PoK was on the table and passed priority before going to the next phase, they wouldn't have to shout "Wait!" because they would be given the opportunity to play cards. I mean, it is honestly no different in that case than someone who runs a heavy control deck. Every time any player does anything, they have to look at the control player for "approval" to see if they are going to answer it or not.
Sylvan Primordial and Prime Time were both lynchpins of a UGx style of play and brought those decks to prominence long before PoK was ever printed and the decks remained popular even after PT/SP were banned and before PoK was around. Don't wrongly attribute the popularity of two of the best colors for accruing resources (land and drawing cards) as a purely PoK function. The colors were always popular anyway because colors, in EDH more than anywhere else, directly effect what your deck can/can't do and U/G feeds into the "battlecruiser" style of play that is so common in EDH.
And, if you are running 22 answers, then it should never, ever be a problem or even a blip on the radar for you.
Between Reality Shift, Pongify, Rabid Hybridization, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares and Oblation, I really wonder what other instant-speed spot removal I need to play in my Rasputin deck before the "RUN MORE ANSWERS" people are statisfied.
That's only, uh, 6. I mean, not that I don't sometimes run decks with that few, but it's not exactly a lot. Not that "dies to spot removal" is a reason to leave something unbanned, but it's sort of odd imo to say "look at all this spot removal I'm running! will you never be satisfied?!?!?" when it's only 6% of your deck. Many of my control decks will go as high as 20% on spot removal alone, plus board wipes, counters, and stax.
Yeah uh, if you read my next post in the thread (Located right above you), you'll note I do run that kind of stuff. I even let out some of the more situational stuff in that calculation.
If you recognized that a PoK was on the table and passed priority before going to the next phase, they wouldn't have to shout "Wait!" because they would be given the opportunity to play cards. I mean, it is honestly no different in that case than someone who runs a heavy control deck. Every time any player does anything, they have to look at the control player for "approval" to see if they are going to answer it or not.
Sylvan Primordial and Prime Time were both lynchpins of a UGx style of play and brought those decks to prominence long before PoK was ever printed and the decks remained popular even after PT/SP were banned and before PoK was around. Don't wrongly attribute the popularity of two of the best colors for accruing resources (land and drawing cards) as a purely PoK function. The colors were always popular anyway because colors, in EDH more than anywhere else, directly effect what your deck can/can't do and U/G feeds into the "battlecruiser" style of play that is so common in EDH.
And, if you are running 22 answers, then it should never, ever be a problem or even a blip on the radar for you.
You forget that not every player is very good at the whole priority passing thing. There are a LOT of casual tabletop players at EDH, and at my LGS, while we do have some "pros", games with multiple players tend to become, well, casually played, with a lot of shortcutting, joking around, etc etc. If you play at a heavily competitive table, I dare doubt that your LGS is representative for what the EDH council is going for.
Furthermore, I noted my most heavy control deck as an example. A lot of players don't play control decks, so they'll be less heavy on the removal. Do you really want to turn EDH in a game of "Everyone play 20+ counters and spot removal cards to deal with a few cards like PoK" ? Because that's the feeling I get. People like to play different things too.
UGx has always been strong, true. PoK however was already around once Primordial got banned, just a note. I'm not saying that PoK has created the prominence of UGx, I'm saying that it has warped their style around it.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
All I am saying is if 3-4 other players at the table have no answers for PoK and you are able to go off, then you are quite fortunate. I don't want people to have to play heavy control and I don't play it myself either. If you have a heavy control deck with 22 answers, it shouldn't be an issue. If the whole table is even only running 5-6 answers, that means there are anywhere between 15-24 ways that it can be killed and that isn't even counting tutors that serve as functional answers.
Also, I don't play at an ultra competitive table. We're a mixture between competitive and casual and are definitely very laid back overall despite the deck choices. We just recognize when someone consistently has triggers on other players' turns and make sure we don't bypass them. It's also common to just have someone tell you before they go to combat/main phase/end turn or whatever.
Pok's biggest issue is she makes the strength of already strong colors more apparent. I'd rather fight my way through a Pok over teferi any day though, that card is dumb.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
The most frustrating thing to me when playing against prophet is that it slows the game down to a crawl. The player with PoK will always have something to do every turn (mana sink, draw effect, flash in stuff). Provided that prophet is played in the right situation it will win the game for sure but it will take a couple of very boring turn where someone is decksturbating every turn. I agree that on its own it does not do a whole lot and dies easily, but it is the most frustrating card that I see the most often right now in any meta. I'd add Cyclonic Rift to this list because most of the time it is used as a "I hope to get back into this game so I rift" instead of rift to win. This card slows down games so much its almost unbearable.
The PoK player taking forever sounds like more of an individual issue with that player and not a problem with the card itself. Long turns aren't a reason for banning either.
On the bright side, it gives you more time to ponder the value of spot removal while they are playing cards.
Long turns happen due to the player having PoK resolving many triggers. Any good player will have counter magic ready when resolving Pok, its not like you can just bolt it and be done with it. Often times you will need more than 2 cards to deal with it, and that is on the turn it lands, because on the following turns it is usually too late. The player might not be able to win right away but he should have the table locked down at that point.
I'll comment on a few things from the preceding few pages:
1. Don't run out and buy a Tolarian Academy for this format.
2. Really don't run out and buy Library of Alexandria for this format.
3. The banned as commander wasn't eliminated in the name of difficulty (we're pretty sure nearly everyone understood it), but for the sake of simplicity. Those are two different things.
I'll comment on a few things from the preceding few pages:
1. Don't run out and buy a Tolarian Academy for this format.
2. Really don't run out and buy Library of Alexandria for this format.
3. The banned as commander wasn't eliminated in the name of difficulty (we're pretty sure nearly everyone understood it), but for the sake of simplicity. Those are two different things.
The argument "for the sake of simplicity" in a such complicated game as mtg still bugs me, it just feels off somehow.
The argument "for the sake of simplicity" in a such complicated game as mtg still bugs me, it just feels off somehow.
It was a rule that affected only a couple of cards and was likely to no affect any future cards. Of those four cards, one was perfectly fine, one was borderline unpleasant in the 99, and the other two were probably fine in the 99. When a lot about this format requires additional explanation beyond the basic rules of the game, being able to eliminate even one of them makes the format easier to pick up.
The argument "for the sake of simplicity" in a such complicated game as mtg still bugs me, it just feels off somehow.
It was a rule that affected only a couple of cards and was likely to no affect any future cards. Of those four cards, one was perfectly fine, one was borderline unpleasant in the 99, and the other two were probably fine in the 99. When a lot about this format requires additional explanation beyond the basic rules of the game, being able to eliminate even one of them makes the format easier to pick up.
The main issue was that it killed one very iconic character (Rofellos) and one unique effect (Braids). I would say that the change deserves the backlash it receives. This format has always put flavor before simplicity, otherwise we would not have a 20+ page discussion on color identity. So this specific bit of simplifying seems arbitrary by comparison.
This real question to ask is: "Does this change make the format any better?" For me, it in fact makes it worse. For many I would say it makes little difference.
Doubtful. Braids-as-a-commander is about the third or fourth card I'd find myself banning if I were starting the format/banlist over (after Limited Resources, Karakas, and maybe Time Vault)
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What [PoK] does is effectively create an extra turn for it's controller on the turn of each other player. Instead of "one for me, three for you," it's "one for me, one for you." Turns are powerful resources, especially when you have all your resources available.
For what it's worth, I think the only way you're going to get good discussion on PoK is if both sides get out of 'hypothetical game situations' land and think about how the card plays in actual games. PoK is not 3UG = win the game; but it is also not a do nothing Darksteel Relic.
I am still in the "Drop the banhammer on PoK" club, even though I've somewhat relented in my zeal on the topic.
The card is totally unfun to play against and it forces you to have removal on the spot or multiple answers for every threat that comes out afterwards. I generally pack generous amounts of answers in the 3 CMC range or less in most EDH decks but it sometimes just isn't enough. I can't combat it on the stack with every deck either.
I mean, I'm not going to cry if it stays unbanned but it's a really unfun, centralizing card.
@Sheldon on LoA:
Just going to "warble" on this one and leave it at that.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Simplification, to me, is just about as bad as if they banned it because the rule was hard to understand (a sort of -mental- barrier to entry, so to speak).
Putting it bluntly, there were very clear rules regarding commanders. Either they were banned, or they weren't. Because of the nature of EDH, players, especially new ones, had to refer to the banlist when they were constructing their lists as they would for any format. They would be able to easily observe that there were 2 legendary creatures that couldn't be played at all, but the other 3 legendary creatures (sans Koko) that were barred from being commanders, through the wisdom and benevolence that is the RC, have been allowed to grace our lowly 99 with their presence. There is a very clear division between what a commander is and what a regular magic card is as one of the 99 when EDH is concerned and a simple recognition of this fact makes the "simplification" of this situation overzealous because the format already defined the the difference when they created special, one-of-a-kind treatment for your commander.
Given this clear division, I'm not sure what simplification was supposed to accomplish. At the time of the rule change, there were 6 cards that were banned as a commander. Of those 6, the only ones that could not be played as one of the 99 were Gristlebrand and Emrakul. The other 4 were fine as one of the 99. So, 2/3rds of the banned commanders were seen as fine as one of the 99 and instead, they banned 3 of the 4 playable ones while throwing us a small bone by unbanning Kokusho. They could have just decided that Koko deserved an unban and left the other 3 as they were. Is it so difficult to have a exception on the banlist for 3 cards, especially considering that this format is about using the wealth of old, rare, exciting, and unique cards that MtG has to offer with the biggest emphasis on playing LEGENDARY creatures?
It just doesn't make sense to me that they would change a relatively simple rule that is clear cut based on the design of the format to eliminate the play of some of the very cards that EDH was designed to highlight. And you're seriously telling me you couldn't have a "Banned Entirely" and a "Banned ONLY as a Commander" list that included a WHOPPING 3 creatures? Get real. That's the kind of "simplification" that happens when you cut a sentence out of your paper to make sure it is under the word count limit...
Which is why you Birthing Pod your Wood Elves into an Oracle of Mul Daya.
The PoK player taking forever sounds like more of an individual issue with that player and not a problem with the card itself. Long turns aren't a reason for banning either.
On the bright side, it gives you more time to ponder the value of spot removal while they are playing cards.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
They never will be. Sometimes you don't have an answer and you lose. Shuffle up and go again.
PoK is definitely board-warping, but its strength lies in the cards you use with it, unlike Primeval Titan (not to beat a dead horse). It's not a case of something like Demonic Tutor, which basically says "you run this if you run any black", competitively speaking. That's I think ultimately why it shouldn't be banned. Even though it helps out almost every possible build that can run it, the dynamics of the card can make games more complex because it feeds into the diversity of the format. It doesn't shut people out of the game. Super-annoying single creatures, against which you HAVE to be prepared when fighting a certain deck type (i.e. Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator for combo decks) really take the fun out of the format, because they reduce the diversity of a certain playstyle to a singularity. EDH is about variety and weird things happening, and if something really crazy broken happens, that's fine, as long as it doesn't come to define a certain playstyle. (That's personally what I think ruined YGO for me, at the risk of sounding like a propagandistic type. Sorry if I do.)
I understand that I might have crossed the lines between casual and competitive play here, but overall, it's a casual format, so I personally define these boundaries pretty fuzzily. Of course, any format is not going to be fun with format-warping cards, but in EDH such cards suck away the diversity that makes it such a great format. Prophet just isn't strong enough to do that, in my eyes.
BMickey and the Zombies
WThings That Fly With Spears
G
Did You Just Main Phase an Ambush Viper?BGCulling Dais Lolziness a la 1-2 drop Cube
Standard
WBGAbzan Outlast
EDH
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
WGRhys the Redeemed and Those not quite
UBWrexial, the Risen Deep (work in progress)
BBalthor the Defiled (work in progress)
You could be running psionic blast or sunlance
PoK is a creature, the easiest to remove of all permanents, it's fragile, and it's effect has no use until your turn, or if they have nothing in hand
The untap effect can be emulated with seedborn, so thats not the problem people are having, people are mad at the flash enabler, so run more cards that don't let people play spells on your turn, there are too many ways to stop PoK to warrant a ban on it
especially in a 3+ player game, if 2 or 3 opponents cannot kill 1 single 3 toughness creature, maybe it's not the PoK that's too strong, maybe your deckbuilding skills need to be improved
I think that's it since the last comment read number is probably higher than the post number since so many pages got pulled out, it should fix itself after a few more pages of comments.
On topic Prophet of Kruphix is a really strong enabler however IMO it is a huge archenemy play so with the hate of the table headed at it's controller it balances out. For blue green I think it is one of their stronger cards but I don't feel it's ban worthy.
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
I LOLed.
You're in blue, you forgot the counterspells.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Look, the point I've made about PoK is not that it's invincible or anything, but it's like superglue. It does so many things for a deck while appearing enough, and I think that due to how PoK glues UGx decks together, those decks have since its release been pushed even further up ahead on the obnoxious state.
PoK slows games down due to how many more actions its player can take (This is generally speaking not a player issue, but it does get really obnoxious to every time "WAIT, before you draw a card, I do some crap. WAIT, before you untap, at the end of his turn, I do more stuff.") and, as noted, turns the game into mass archenemy. Of all non-hexproof/shroud creatures, PoK has the best defense available - the constant open mana which Seedborn Muse also offers. Unlike Seedborn Muse, however, PoK also offers the option to further advance your board position WITHOUT the help of other cards already on the field. Seedborn needs Teferi or Leyline for it.
I'd like to challenge people who rely on PoK to try out a few games without it. See just how much it can mess up your game if you can't reliably get that combination of abilities on the field anymore. With how easy it is to get on the field and protect, it's very easy to fall into a deckbuilding 'trap' which focusses around the Prophet, or at least abusing it for just one turn.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
To call out a few you could run, capsize, unexpectedly absent, crib swap, and cyclonic rift...or sorcery speed stuff like darksteel mutation and gilded drake, plus ofc there's loads of boardwipes (some of which are instants).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Sylvan Primordial and Prime Time were both lynchpins of a UGx style of play and brought those decks to prominence long before PoK was ever printed and the decks remained popular even after PT/SP were banned and before PoK was around. Don't wrongly attribute the popularity of two of the best colors for accruing resources (land and drawing cards) as a purely PoK function. The colors were always popular anyway because colors, in EDH more than anywhere else, directly effect what your deck can/can't do and U/G feeds into the "battlecruiser" style of play that is so common in EDH.
And, if you are running 22 answers, then it should never, ever be a problem or even a blip on the radar for you.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Yeah uh, if you read my next post in the thread (Located right above you), you'll note I do run that kind of stuff. I even let out some of the more situational stuff in that calculation.
You forget that not every player is very good at the whole priority passing thing. There are a LOT of casual tabletop players at EDH, and at my LGS, while we do have some "pros", games with multiple players tend to become, well, casually played, with a lot of shortcutting, joking around, etc etc. If you play at a heavily competitive table, I dare doubt that your LGS is representative for what the EDH council is going for.
Furthermore, I noted my most heavy control deck as an example. A lot of players don't play control decks, so they'll be less heavy on the removal. Do you really want to turn EDH in a game of "Everyone play 20+ counters and spot removal cards to deal with a few cards like PoK" ? Because that's the feeling I get. People like to play different things too.
UGx has always been strong, true. PoK however was already around once Primordial got banned, just a note. I'm not saying that PoK has created the prominence of UGx, I'm saying that it has warped their style around it.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Also, I don't play at an ultra competitive table. We're a mixture between competitive and casual and are definitely very laid back overall despite the deck choices. We just recognize when someone consistently has triggers on other players' turns and make sure we don't bypass them. It's also common to just have someone tell you before they go to combat/main phase/end turn or whatever.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Long turns happen due to the player having PoK resolving many triggers. Any good player will have counter magic ready when resolving Pok, its not like you can just bolt it and be done with it. Often times you will need more than 2 cards to deal with it, and that is on the turn it lands, because on the following turns it is usually too late. The player might not be able to win right away but he should have the table locked down at that point.
1. Don't run out and buy a Tolarian Academy for this format.
2. Really don't run out and buy Library of Alexandria for this format.
3. The banned as commander wasn't eliminated in the name of difficulty (we're pretty sure nearly everyone understood it), but for the sake of simplicity. Those are two different things.
The argument "for the sake of simplicity" in a such complicated game as mtg still bugs me, it just feels off somehow.
Riku of Two Reflections
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
It was a rule that affected only a couple of cards and was likely to no affect any future cards. Of those four cards, one was perfectly fine, one was borderline unpleasant in the 99, and the other two were probably fine in the 99. When a lot about this format requires additional explanation beyond the basic rules of the game, being able to eliminate even one of them makes the format easier to pick up.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The main issue was that it killed one very iconic character (Rofellos) and one unique effect (Braids). I would say that the change deserves the backlash it receives. This format has always put flavor before simplicity, otherwise we would not have a 20+ page discussion on color identity. So this specific bit of simplifying seems arbitrary by comparison.
This real question to ask is: "Does this change make the format any better?" For me, it in fact makes it worse. For many I would say it makes little difference.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I am still in the "Drop the banhammer on PoK" club, even though I've somewhat relented in my zeal on the topic.
The card is totally unfun to play against and it forces you to have removal on the spot or multiple answers for every threat that comes out afterwards. I generally pack generous amounts of answers in the 3 CMC range or less in most EDH decks but it sometimes just isn't enough. I can't combat it on the stack with every deck either.
I mean, I'm not going to cry if it stays unbanned but it's a really unfun, centralizing card.
@Sheldon on LoA:
Just going to "warble" on this one and leave it at that.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Simplification, to me, is just about as bad as if they banned it because the rule was hard to understand (a sort of -mental- barrier to entry, so to speak).
Putting it bluntly, there were very clear rules regarding commanders. Either they were banned, or they weren't. Because of the nature of EDH, players, especially new ones, had to refer to the banlist when they were constructing their lists as they would for any format. They would be able to easily observe that there were 2 legendary creatures that couldn't be played at all, but the other 3 legendary creatures (sans Koko) that were barred from being commanders, through the wisdom and benevolence that is the RC, have been allowed to grace our lowly 99 with their presence. There is a very clear division between what a commander is and what a regular magic card is as one of the 99 when EDH is concerned and a simple recognition of this fact makes the "simplification" of this situation overzealous because the format already defined the the difference when they created special, one-of-a-kind treatment for your commander.
Given this clear division, I'm not sure what simplification was supposed to accomplish. At the time of the rule change, there were 6 cards that were banned as a commander. Of those 6, the only ones that could not be played as one of the 99 were Gristlebrand and Emrakul. The other 4 were fine as one of the 99. So, 2/3rds of the banned commanders were seen as fine as one of the 99 and instead, they banned 3 of the 4 playable ones while throwing us a small bone by unbanning Kokusho. They could have just decided that Koko deserved an unban and left the other 3 as they were. Is it so difficult to have a exception on the banlist for 3 cards, especially considering that this format is about using the wealth of old, rare, exciting, and unique cards that MtG has to offer with the biggest emphasis on playing LEGENDARY creatures?
It just doesn't make sense to me that they would change a relatively simple rule that is clear cut based on the design of the format to eliminate the play of some of the very cards that EDH was designed to highlight. And you're seriously telling me you couldn't have a "Banned Entirely" and a "Banned ONLY as a Commander" list that included a WHOPPING 3 creatures? Get real. That's the kind of "simplification" that happens when you cut a sentence out of your paper to make sure it is under the word count limit...
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU