MTG Salvation

Quote from papa_funk

Quote from Jusstice

So essentially, there is already some evidence that the RC did at one point take cues from the Legacy bans.

Way back in the early days, the idea of using the Legacy list as a baseline was floated a couple times, but quickly discarded. Taking inspiration from Legacy - arguably the format most antithetical to Commander - seems counterproductive. Any overlap is coincidental.

Well, what could any possible criteria for Metalworker be besides one combo where it spent time on the Legacy list? Same thing with Balance, Protean Hulk and these other cards that spent time in a Legacy combo deck? I mean as far as I've heard it explained, things are put to an RC vote. Who would put them to a vote and for what reason, if not the fact that they were wrecking Legacy at some point?

On Legacy being antithetical to Commander, if it were apples to oranges, sure. But it's linear along the same metric of power level. Say Legacy is a speed of 5 Turn win, and EDH is the speed of 10 Turn win. Any ban list that serves for the quicker speed would serve for the slower speed.

Take car racing as an example. Maybe we have two competition classes, depending on driver performance. Only for the faster class, we also have a hard speed limit of 200 mph. Saying that you can't apply the same 200 mph to the slower competition class, based on the idea that they're different, makes no sense. So what you would have is a driver putting rocket engines and all sorts of things not allowed in the higher competition class due to the 200 mph speed limit, and then using them in what's supposed to be a lower competition class. Demonic Tutor for Survival, wank wank. That looks as silly in EDH as a jet engine would look on a NASCAR track.

I just don't see anything on that list the EDH absolutely NEEDS to have, and a ton of stuff that's conspicuously not casual.

On a side note, does Painter's Servant need to remain banned? It doesn't have any broken combos. Maybe grindstone, but that's it. By that logic Helm of Obedience should be banned.

Quote from Georg51

Quote from cryogen

I run the heck out of it, I regularly face it, and I can honestly say that I don't think the format would be better off without it.

Then why are you defending the idea to ban it. Makes no sense.

My point this whole time has been that Prophet is far from broken, and effects the game much less than TONS of other cards = does not warrant a ban.

All this is moot anyways because the Wizards official EDH banlist is more a suggestion than a strict guideline. Different playgroups all have their own ban lists and rules anyways. If I find myself playing with a group that says Prophet is banned, I'll chuckle and lock them out of their mana with Vorinclex. GG.

I'm sorry, I mistyped. I meant that the format would be better off without Prophet, and that it doesn't add much to the format.

Painter's Servant is a ban that completely confounded me when I first read the list. It's not broken in itself and seems like it would allow lots of fun shenanigans. I later read it was banned because of Grindstone and the ability to lock everyone out of the game with Iona, Shield of Emeria. Personally, I'd much prefer they banned Iona, a horribly unfun card whose design I absolutely loathe, rather than the quirky and interesting servant. In the long run though it might make sense to ban the root of the problem rather than every card that becomes problematic with the servant. Still the ban I dislike the most on the list, however.

Quote from Stickmourne

On a side note, does Painter's Servant need to remain banned? It doesn't have any broken combos. Maybe grindstone, but that's it. By that logic Helm of Obedience should becbanned.

Iona locking the entire table out of the game, numerous color-hate spells (such as Pyroblast becoming the best removal/counter in the game, and things like Reap becoming unbalanced. The fact is there are so many "Color matters" spells in this game that it would be fairly difficult to balance out unbanning him (most people would just say to ban Iona, but that's the tip of the iceberg).

I'd run Painter's Servant with Wash Out. I heard Upheaval was good.

I don't think Painter's Servant is overtly prone to creating "unfun" game states, though. I will give that Lifeforce deck credit because it's 2 unique cards and doesn't win the game. Actually sounds like fun.

What I do know though is that Painter's Servant/Grindstone is a playable combo in ... wait for it... Legacy.

Quote from Jusstice

I don't think Painter's Servant is overtly prone to creating "unfun" game states, though. I will give that Lifeforce deck credit because it's 2 unique cards and doesn't win the game. Actually sounds like fun.

What I do know though is that Painter's Servant/Grindstone is a playable combo in ... wait for it... Legacy.

And Eldrazi titans are pricey these days. Servant Stone isn't very powerful, but newer players aren't going to have an Ulamog/Kozilek in their decks to deal with it.

I think that combo's hayday is fairly well over. It was probably more of a thing in Vintage, with Workshop and all. Either way, it never, ever being a thing in EDH while being on the radar in other formats leads me to draw certain conclusions for why it's on the EDH list.

Quote from Jusstice

I think that combo's hayday is fairly well over. It was probably more of a thing in Vintage, with Workshop and all. Either way, it never, ever being a thing in EDH while being on the radar in other formats leads me to draw certain conclusions for why it's on the EDH list.

Even ignoring that combo, the idea of turning Pyroblast into a Vindicate/Counterspell, Reap into a 2-mana Praetor's Counsel, and other color-hate spells into no-drawback super-spells isn't something I think this format needs. Changing niche sideboard bait into versatile threats/answers isn't something a single, colorless creature should be able to do.

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Quote from Jusstice

I think that combo's hayday is fairly well over. It was probably more of a thing in Vintage, with Workshop and all. Either way, it never, ever being a thing in EDH while being on the radar in other formats leads me to draw certain conclusions for why it's on the EDH list.

Even ignoring that combo, the idea of turning Pyroblast into a Vindicate/Counterspell, Reap into a 2-mana Praetor's Counsel, and other color-hate spells into no-drawback super-spells isn't something I think this format needs. Changing niche sideboard bait into versatile threats/answers isn't something a single, colorless creature should be able to do.

Making situational, bad cards into strong ones isn't really a problem when you consider that those cards return to being bad once Painter leaves the board. And he's a 2 toughness artifact creature, which makes him die to pretty much everything. If you build around using those extremely niche cards with Painter to make them powerhouses, then you're taking a lot of risk because they will be awful if you draw them without Painter or if he dies.

None of those effects are too powerful on their own anyway, other than perhaps Lifeforce and friends, and even they have plenty of workarounds. Having to have two specific cards to get a more powerful version of an effect that already exists isn't anywhere near a problem, especially for this format which is pretty much defined by those kinds of interactions.

Decks that play Prophet tend towards every card in them being a creature, and every creature being either a mana accelerant or a card advantage generator of some kind. In that environment, it's very easy to actually use all the mana that prophet generates, and when that's essentially four times as much mana as you would otherwise have, it gets very broken very fast.

Quote from BonSequitur

Decks that play Prophet tend towards every card in them being a creature, and every creature being either a mana accelerant or a card advantage generator of some kind. In that environment, it's very easy to actually use all the mana that prophet generates, and when that's essentially four times as much mana as you would otherwise have, it gets very broken very fast.

Not to mention that since you're in blue you also have access to instant speed card draw and counters. Optimally you have all your mana open to counter anything and if nothing worthwhile is cast, you can drop a dude at EOT and repeat the process next turn.

Still not as broken as Vorinclex.

Quote from Georg51

Still not as broken as Vorinclex.

Considering that a search of this thread for "Vorinclex" yields 4 pages of results and a search for "Prophet" yields 5 pages, and Vorinclex has had two full blocks more in play, I'm going to respectfully disagree. Or at least, if he's broken, the masses aren't vocalizing their distaste for him nearly as much.

Quote from Georg51

Still not as broken as Vorinclex.

Do you notice how Vorinclex costs 8 mana? And how all the others you listed cost 7+ mana?

Mana cost is a consideration in determining the power of a card. If I have 3 more turns of setup before Vorinclex hits, compared to Prophet, it is a big difference. Prophet comes down as early as turn 4, whereas Vorinclex comes down on turn 6, maybe. Not to mention that Prophet gives your opponents until the end of your turn to deal with him before you have your mana ready, Vorinclex gives them an entire turn rotation before he's anything more than Exhaustion.

Yes, let's follow the logic of the 'masses' because they're complaining more about a dollar rare. (A WHOLE 1 PAGE more, no less!)

Quote from Georg51

Yes, let's follow the logic of the 'masses' because they're complaining more about a dollar rare. (A WHOLE 1 PAGE more, no less!)

Since when has card price ever been a factor in determining a cards power; especially in commander?

There are tons of cheap but broken cards already on the ban list. (Sway the Stars, Biorythem, Worldfire, Coalition Victory, Trade Secrets, Tinker)

Of course a mythic rare will command a higher price tag, because mythic rares appear in only 1 out of 8 packs, while rares appear in every pack.

Necropotence isn't a casual card. Vampiric Tutor isn't a casual card. Mana Crypt isn't a casual card.

Telling people "Well find your own playgroup then" is growing very tiring of hearing. Saying "well you don't understand the spirit of the format" is about as ad hominem as it gets. There's no logic to it at all. EDH has been around for a long time now and player bases are growing. Times have changed and it doesn't make sense anymore. I've been saying this for awhile. We simply need a new sect of players to agree upon this and come up with better ban list. As long as the above cards can be run, and people could possibly be scolded for doing as such, something isn't right. Something isn't adding up. It's as if unspoken rules are then made up on the spot.

And for the record. P.Hulk needs to stay banned. I could molest so hard with that card.

Also, Vorniclux never makes any of my lists. The card requires much more work than Prophet.

I don't think Prophet is oppressive enough nor did it enable any deck to become seriously more powerful to get banned. It doesn't set up the game-state that allows UGx to dominate. Don't get me wrong, Prophet is a great sixth man, but banning it doesn't really solve anything except maybe quieting some people. Its ban doesn't stop UGx from drawing a fistful of cards at will, locking the board with easy combos, or getting land at a better price than Thomas Jefferson. It just doesn't do enough by itself.

In short, I don't think banning it does much of anything for the format, positively or negatively. Maybe that could allow it to be banned if enough people are vocal about it, but that might not alleviate their problems with UGx decks.

Quote from Hammer

I just scrolled back 10 pages and didn't see nearly enough talk about the current nemesis to the format: prophet of kruphix.

I play a lot of EDH on MTGO, and currently the card is warping the format beyond anything else. It's come to the point that if you face a UG mage then you better go all in or else it will end in a prophet lock for them. When I first saw the card, I thought it wasn't much better than a seedborn muse, but adding on Teferi's ability for free turns out to break the card in half.

Anyway, I was just wondering if this stupidly designed card was on the RC watch list at all?

I'm sorry, but hasn't that been the case since... I don't know... green blue decks started running seedborn muse forever ago? This is nothing new. The flash component is nice, but looking at my experience with seedborn muse, being sorcery or instant speed never mattered. If the UG mage has a full hand, sick board state, and constantly drawing cards.... then yeah.... it's the bane of everything. The same can be said about time walk effects and half the other blue cards people complain about.

I'm not entirely sold on Prophet of Kruphix being banned considering Consecrated Sphinx hasn't had a ban yet and is far more banworthy (still don't think it should be banned either though). I do however think that Cyclonic Rift and Decimate are worth a conversation.

I'm truly sorry if this offends you, but if you think Prophet of Kruphix is overpowered or broken, you're probably a very bad player or a very sore loser and somebody beat you using this card once or twice.

The only time this will be "degenerate" is if the person running it is also running very degenerate cards. It's super easy to answer, just like most things, and it doesn't have immediate impact on the board. "Adding nothing to the format" isn't a reason to ban a card, the only reason a card should be banned is if it causes constantly degenerate games (this thread is full of people complaining about benign cards like Sol Ring, so don't cite this thread as an example).

Quote from Wildfire393

Quote from Crabster Supreme

I'm not entirely sold on Prophet of Kruphix being banned considering Consecrated Sphinx hasn't had a ban yet and is far more banworthy (still don't think it should be banned either though). I do however think that Cyclonic Rift and Decimate are worth a conversation.

Cyclonic Rift has been discussed plenty.

What's this about Decimate? I'm going to need some explanation for that one. This card is, IMO, the epitome of balanced because it frequently can't be cast.

Yup. Might as well say Hex is broken too.