Primordial is the only card I truly find problematic that is legal. The fact it destroys permanents AND gets you lands makes me think that it's actually worse than P-titan, and thus deserves the banhammer more. I don't really want to see P-titan come back, I really want Sylvan Primordial to leave, it's not welcome at our tables anymore, and I've seen it do too many degenerate things, and warp games to stupid levels for it to safely exist in this format anymore.
Removal is a moot argument, it can be easily recurred out of the graveyard and the problem is back. It's too attractive of a target not to reanimate, in fact to the point that if you have a reanimation spell, and don't reanimate it, you made the wrong play.
Then there are clones, it's always right to clone the primordial because the advantage is too great.
These are hallmarks of a card that is too powerful, as it warps the game around itself the instant the card is seen.
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Primordial is the only card I truly find problematic that is legal. The fact it destroys permanents AND gets you lands makes me think that it's actually worse than P-titan, and thus deserves the banhammer more. Then there are clones, it's always right to clone the primordial because the advantage is too great.
Yep, I couldn't agree more. I lost soo many games on lame Primordial, it makes me really sad. Players playing Simic Progenitor or kicked Rite of Replication on Primordial.. Always some ramp deck pulling him out on turn 3 and on next turn, 3 people loose lands and owner feches another 3. Aaand how unexpected, Turn 4 is kicked Tooth and Nail pulling out some combo and games over. Tadaaaa. Had fun as f.... I am well avare that land destroy is vaiable strategy how to win games, but Armageddon makes the game still more balanced than one sided mimicked, copied, kicked, blinked, reanimated Primordial.
For the BNG block, I wonder how the chymera will do. Becuase as I was reading the ruling, it will be complete mess. I think it has potential to be next candidate on bann list.
For the BNG block, I wonder how the chymera will do. Becuase as I was reading the ruling, it will be complete mess. I think it has potential to be next candidate on bann list.
Because it's confusing? don't be ridiculous. They would have banned eye of the storm years ago if they cared about that.
Chimera is going to do fun and exciting things in the format. In the words of George Lucas, "It's going to be great".
I haven't seen homeward path more than twice since it came out. Chimera isn't that good on its own and Homeward Path is trash 98% of the time, so if people start running these cards together that will make their decks worse.... That doesn't sound like anything the RC needs to be involved in.
I haven't seen homeward path more than twice since it came out. Chimera isn't that good on its own and Homeward Path is trash 98% of the time, so if people start running these cards together that will make their decks worse.... That doesn't sound like anything the RC needs to be involved in.
I agree that he won't be a problem, but I think he has a lot of potential. Once he's on the field he really stifles what most people will be willing to play. Seems like a pretty potent counter to a lot of bomby strategies - even if you don't have control of him anymore, he's blocking a lot of potential shenans.
Homeward path won't be a big commitment in a mono-blue deck. For multicolor I guess it depends on their color requirements.
All this talk of banning Sylvan Primordial is downright ridiculous, are you people seriously afraid of a creature that can be easily dealt with? Have you ever heard of countermagic? What about exile spells? How about house banning instead of trying to ruin my fun!!! There are creatures far more broken and game warping than SP; the more I read this thread the more I consider selling my EDH decks and moving on to Legacy. No, this is not a flame post, this is a sincere concern about all of the incessant whining about supposedley broken/overpowered cards; Lets learn to metagame.
There ain't many counterspells able to handle a t2 Sylvan Primordial when the player casting him started. You'd have one land. Out of the Counterspells often played you'd have a very slim amount of answers for that so I'm not sure why you feel it's so easily to deal with.
Considering the answers are low, you are now landless and he's up by a minimum of three?
I'm not one to come here often but I strongly believe in the power of Sylvan, I often Natural Order into it t2 or t3, and many people in my meta Reanimate it often t2 or t3.
And basically, if you come on here saying Sylvan shouldn't be banned, and if it would be, it would ruin your fun... It basically means you're abusing it yourself and KNOW the power. So what's your point exactly?
Why is Obliterate legal, but worldfire is banned? I mean, I know worldfire puts you at one life, but that seems like the least important aspect of the card. Either way youre gonna suspend "blow up the world" off Jhoira, then a threat...
There's a big difference in power level between the two: Obliterate leaves enchantments and planeswalkers and life totals intact while only putting creatures, lands and artifacts in the graveyard AND leaves hands and graveyards in play which is a very different board/game state from Worldfire exiling all permanents and hands and graveyards and putting everyone at 1.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
What Vandar said, the two cards are completely different from each other. It's not even close. Apocalypse or Decree of Annihilation are slightly closer but even those aren't in the same ballpark as Worldfire
Also, Worldfire does not impact the Command zone, allowing a player to float mana, cast woldfire, then cast a commander, with everyone at 1 life.
This is quite different from obliterate + commander, as with obliterate, everyone at least still has their hands to have an answer, maybe some lands, and still have life totals to give a buffer and some time.
It's just too easy to insta-win with Worldfire. Use Alchemist's Refuge to cast it with a damage spell on the stack. Float mana and cast your commander. Suspend it and anything else with Jhoira. Cast it with Greater Gargadon waiting. Or even Arc Blade if you're feeling funny.
Obliterate at least requires you to do all the work of getting them from 40 to zero. And while you can "cheat" with indestructible/enchantments/planeswalkers, but so can your opponents. Nothing avoids the Worldfire except the things you specifically want to, and they don't have to survive more than a turn or two after it.
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There ain't many counterspells able to handle a t2 Sylvan Primordial when the player casting him started. You'd have one land. Out of the Counterspells often played you'd have a very slim amount of answers for that so I'm not sure why you feel it's so easily to deal with.
Considering the answers are low, you are now landless and he's up by a minimum of three?
I'm not one to come here often but I strongly believe in the power of Sylvan, I often Natural Order into it t2 or t3, and many people in my meta Reanimate it often t2 or t3.
And basically, if you come on here saying Sylvan shouldn't be banned, and if it would be, it would ruin your fun... It basically means you're abusing it yourself and KNOW the power. So what's your point exactly?
I don't think the reanimate on t2 argument is any good against sylvan primordial. First of all, getting him out t2/t3 requires a pretty amazing hand. Not only that, but entomb + reanimate any high-cost big impact creature is going to have a similar impact on the game, if not worse. Think sheoldred, jin-gitaxias, elesh norn, etc. Should we ban all these cards because they are too powerful when a player abuses them and gets lucky? No.
Also, some people say it has taken primeval titan's place as the ubiquitous green high impact/EtB fattie in the format, and that is true. He is really good, and that is true too. But if we ban him, green will switch to another card - terastodon, craterhoof behemoth, avenger of zendikar, or woodfall primus. Every deck will have it (most have these now) and complaints will pile up about one - most likely terastodon - needing to be banned. He'll be just as devastating t2/t3, and maybe worse due to being able to target a single player. When paired up with blink and stuff, he will be obnoxious, and in the SP/PT free world, the card most called on to be banned. Since the RC in this scenario hit SP with the banhammer, they'll hit him too and keep moving down until I have to play with craw wurms.
Hopefully you can follow that, just wanted to get my thoughts on the debate out there. Why I think we shouldn't ban him, and kind of why I want my primeval titan back.
Also, some people say it has taken primeval titan's place as the ubiquitous green high impact/EtB fattie in the format, and that is true. He is really good, and that is true too. But if we ban him, green will switch to another card - terastodon, craterhoof behemoth, avenger of zendikar, or woodfall primus. Every deck will have it (most have these now) and complaints will pile up about one - most likely terastodon - needing to be banned. He'll be just as devastating t2/t3, and maybe worse due to being able to target a single player. When paired up with blink and stuff, he will be obnoxious, and in the SP/PT free world, the card most called on to be banned. Since the RC in this scenario hit SP with the banhammer, they'll hit him too and keep moving down until I have to play with craw wurms.
Hopefully you can follow that, just wanted to get my thoughts on the debate out there. Why I think we shouldn't ban him, and kind of why I want my primeval titan back.
None of these cards do what Sylvan Primordial does. None of them ramp first of all, only one has the destructive power of the Primordial, and the other two require a huge amount of resources to be in place already.
Sylvan Primordial just comes down, destroys 3 lands, and you get 3 lands, starting whenever you can do that. It's in a league of it's own, no one has been complaining about the other cards you've mentioned...ever? So, clearly your argument is not a good one as a result. (okay they do, but no one takes them seriously) As for primeval Titan, I think, and many probably agree, that in many ways the primordial is more powerful, and thus deserves to be banned more than the titan. And P-titan doesn't need to come back, no matter how much you want it back.
Green already dominates this format as the king of resource acquisition, and also is quite adept at resource denial. And S-primordial does both! It needs to go. I'm all for small banlists, but giving green more tools in those departments, and on the same card, is ludicrous.
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Yep, I couldn't agree more. I lost soo many games on lame Primordial, it makes me really sad. Players playing Simic Progenitor or kicked Rite of Replication on Primordial.. Always some ramp deck pulling him out on turn 3 and on next turn, 3 people loose lands and owner feches another 3. Aaand how unexpected, Turn 4 is kicked Tooth and Nail pulling out some combo and games over. Tadaaaa. Had fun as f.... I am well avare that land destroy is vaiable strategy how to win games, but Armageddon makes the game still more balanced than one sided mimicked, copied, kicked, blinked, reanimated Primordial.
For the BNG block, I wonder how the chymera will do. Becuase as I was reading the ruling, it will be complete mess. I think it has potential to be next candidate on bann list.
Rite isn't an argument. Rite + nearly any creature worth playing is insane. Six Fact or Fictions, six Demonic Tutors, 18 Bramble Crushes, six Vindicates,6 11/11 indestructible tramplers, 6 Regrowths,... You could build a deck of nothing but stuff that's dumb with Rite, Deadeye, or Progenitor Mimic. While you can do really crazy **** with Sylvan Primordial, the only unusual thing I've seen argued is that you can cheat him in insanely fast, to great impact. If you're doing that, though, there are much worse things you could be doing, like combo killing the whole table.
As far as it always being the right thing to copy/reanimate, I'd probably rather have FOF Sphinx unless I have forests. Often, mid to late game, I'd rather have a different Primordial. I'm also a fan of dudes that are much larger than a 6/8 if I can grant haste. Yes, it has the potential to dominate games, but so do a ton of other powerful, high mana cards, many of which are even more backbreaking and likely to instantly win the game. I'm honestly thinking butthurt about land destruction sneaking into decks might be the real reason so many people rail on Sylvan.
Sylvan Primordial is noncreature permanents, guys, not "target land". you can hit artifacts and enchantments before you even need to consider hitting lands.
if you have someone playing primordial simply to blow up peoples manabases and not as an efficient noncreature removal spell, something that green has ALWAYS HAD, by the way, thats a degenerate PLAYER, not a degenerate CARD.
Sylvan Primordial is noncreature permanents, guys, not "target land". you can hit artifacts and enchantments before you even need to consider hitting lands.
if you have someone playing primordial simply to blow up peoples manabases and not as an efficient noncreature removal spell, something that green has ALWAYS HAD, by the way, thats a degenerate PLAYER, not a degenerate CARD.
learn the difference, it could save your life.
What? So if someone uses a card well, they're degenerate? They have to intentionally choose bad targets?
What? So if someone uses a card well, they're degenerate? They have to intentionally choose bad targets?
That's silly. You're silly.
they arent bad targets, though. artifacts, planeswalkers, enchantments, all great targets.
sol ring, scullclamp, asceticism, darksteel mutation, mind control variants, omniscience, doubling season, any planeswalker. all perfectly viable targets. and if your dropping sylvan primordial turn 3 so that your only targets are lands, then yes. you are a degenerate player, no 2 ways about it.
im saying that sylvan primordial should not be banned. if we ban primordial, we might as well ban every combo enabler as well. turn edh into 2/2 vanilla bear town so that nobody gets their feelings hurt about playing in the most open format in the game.
What? So if someone uses a card well, they're degenerate? They have to intentionally choose bad targets?
That's silly. You're silly.
The targets chosen are almost always artifacts, enchantments, or planeswalkers before lands. Early game Sylvan Primordial is annoying but the caster quickly faces the wrath of the table. More often than not they get neutralized. Late game, unless its Deadeye combo, Sylvan Primordial is pretty lackluster
I don't think the reanimate on t2 argument is any good against sylvan primordial. First of all, getting him out t2/t3 requires a pretty amazing hand. Not only that, but entomb + reanimate any high-cost big impact creature is going to have a similar impact on the game, if not worse. Think sheoldred, jin-gitaxias, elesh norn, etc. Should we ban all these cards because they are too powerful when a player abuses them and gets lucky? No.
There's a multitude of ways, really. You don't even need Reanimate as it is T2 and there's a handful of Animate Dead's as well.
You don't even need to Reanimate it, Natural Order Suffices. Anyone playing Radha?
You don't even need to Entomb it, T2 Survival of the Fittest into T3 any reanimation spell?
Black also has plenty of cheap Tutors, when you don't get that T2 or T3 play, Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor can get you there a turn later.
Red has Sneak Attack, Blue has Show and Tell, ..
You and me, both know there's plenty of ways to get it out ASAP and when your deck is built for it, you can do it.
There's also a BIG difference with reanimating a Sheoldred or Jin, they let your opponents untap, play another land, and gives them a chance to deal with it.
Sylvan says "I took your land, goodluck getting back on your feet, I'm untapping with 5+ lands next turn and removing me will only help me get back".
I'm not even trying to make a case for Sylvan's ban, but coming on here saying cheating him out early isn't an argument? C'mon man, who're you trying to fool?
The broken thing is not that he destroys or fetches lands. The broken thing is that he do both at the same time. And also, its not just basic land search, its search a forest card. So Overgrown Tomb and similar forest type lands can come out, completely fixing players manabase, if he got some problem with some color.
I agree that there are plenty of answers how to deal with him, but the main problem is when he comes out on turn 2 or 3, leaving you with 1-2 lands and for caster like 7. Having 7 lands and my opponent 2, he done his job and I don't give a damn if you destroy him or not, because next thing that will come out will be your last. I don't remember when I won the game when opponent had 3x more lands than me after 3 rounds.
And also, check other primordials. White exiles one creature, red gains control of one creature, blue let you cast one instant or sorcery, and black returns creature. All 4 are very situational and are useless to cast early in game. For sylvan, he can be good on T2 or T3 but also on T8. How many out of does guys see real game? Hm? Like none? Sylvan is in every deck.
And someone mentioned other viable targets such as Omniscience. I think that when Omniscience hits the board, you lost actually, so there is no reason to mention it..
Sylvan Primordial is noncreature permanents, guys, not "target land". you can hit artifacts and enchantments before you even need to consider hitting lands.
if you have someone playing primordial simply to blow up peoples manabases and not as an efficient noncreature removal spell, something that green has ALWAYS HAD, by the way, thats a degenerate PLAYER, not a degenerate CARD.
learn the difference, it could save your life.
Thats some real good advice, except you know there are not a lot of other targets T2. Other than that you are spot on (sarcasm).
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
We're talking about Sylvan Primordial again? With the most ridiculous examples of why he should be banned again? Hoo boy. Him hitting the field does not end the game. I've won games where an opposing Primodial hit the field T2. But no, let's all hammer on the non-insta-gamewinner that is Primordial and keep ignoring the cards that DO instantly win the game when they come out, such as Hermit Druid, Ad Nauseum, Omniscience and pals.
Yes, Primordial is a great card. Yes, it's advantages are very real. But it doesn't warp the entire game into a "bribe/clone the Primordial" fest like Primeval Titan did, and that banning was already rather contested.
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Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The targets chosen are almost always artifacts, enchantments, or planeswalkers before lands. Early game Sylvan Primordial is annoying but the caster quickly faces the wrath of the table. More often than not they get neutralized. Late game, unless its Deadeye combo, Sylvan Primordial is pretty lackluster
That's just not true. For the most part mana is king, and an early game SP usually means you have no mana while I have tons. I may have made the game into Archenemy, but you're still way behind. Late game SP hitting the field a few times usually nets real card advantage because I've destroyed many problem cards, and again I've ramped myself ahead of the table. The simple fact is that he ALWAYS has a target to hit and you're ALWAYS going to ramp ahead of the table each time you have one enter the battlefield.
We're talking about Sylvan Primordial again? With the most ridiculous examples of why he should be banned again? Hoo boy. Him hitting the field does not end the game. I've won games where an opposing Primodial hit the field T2. But no, let's all hammer on the non-insta-gamewinner that is Primordial and keep ignoring the cards that DO instantly win the game when they come out, such as Hermit Druid, Ad Nauseum, Omniscience and pals.
Yes, Primordial is a great card. Yes, it's advantages are very real. But it doesn't warp the entire game into a "bribe/clone the Primordial" fest like Primeval Titan did, and that banning was already rather contested.
Not every card banned has to be an insta-win card. But the card should be looked at as seriously (perhaps more seriously) than HD or AN, because those two cards barely see play, and when they do, it's in two specific decks that are hyper-competitive. That's not the way the masses play Commander, and therefore it's not the RC's primary concern.
Removal is a moot argument, it can be easily recurred out of the graveyard and the problem is back. It's too attractive of a target not to reanimate, in fact to the point that if you have a reanimation spell, and don't reanimate it, you made the wrong play.
Then there are clones, it's always right to clone the primordial because the advantage is too great.
These are hallmarks of a card that is too powerful, as it warps the game around itself the instant the card is seen.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
Yep, I couldn't agree more. I lost soo many games on lame Primordial, it makes me really sad. Players playing Simic Progenitor or kicked Rite of Replication on Primordial.. Always some ramp deck pulling him out on turn 3 and on next turn, 3 people loose lands and owner feches another 3. Aaand how unexpected, Turn 4 is kicked Tooth and Nail pulling out some combo and games over. Tadaaaa. Had fun as f.... I am well avare that land destroy is vaiable strategy how to win games, but Armageddon makes the game still more balanced than one sided mimicked, copied, kicked, blinked, reanimated Primordial.
For the BNG block, I wonder how the chymera will do. Becuase as I was reading the ruling, it will be complete mess. I think it has potential to be next candidate on bann list.
Because it's confusing? don't be ridiculous. They would have banned eye of the storm years ago if they cared about that.
Chimera is going to do fun and exciting things in the format. In the words of George Lucas, "It's going to be great".
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Do remember that you're quoting George Lucas.
Chimera will be pretty cool, if annoying. I may have to start running Mouth of Ronom again, since Toshiro doesn't like Chimera's ability.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
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even so:
only 1 creature at a time
not repeatable vs a sac outlet
doesn't stop wraths
doesn't stop 2 removal spells if one's an instant
It's not exactly unbreakable.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I agree that he won't be a problem, but I think he has a lot of potential. Once he's on the field he really stifles what most people will be willing to play. Seems like a pretty potent counter to a lot of bomby strategies - even if you don't have control of him anymore, he's blocking a lot of potential shenans.
Homeward path won't be a big commitment in a mono-blue deck. For multicolor I guess it depends on their color requirements.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
There ain't many counterspells able to handle a t2 Sylvan Primordial when the player casting him started. You'd have one land. Out of the Counterspells often played you'd have a very slim amount of answers for that so I'm not sure why you feel it's so easily to deal with.
Considering the answers are low, you are now landless and he's up by a minimum of three?
I'm not one to come here often but I strongly believe in the power of Sylvan, I often Natural Order into it t2 or t3, and many people in my meta Reanimate it often t2 or t3.
And basically, if you come on here saying Sylvan shouldn't be banned, and if it would be, it would ruin your fun... It basically means you're abusing it yourself and KNOW the power. So what's your point exactly?
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
It just seems like an odd inconsistency to me....
Merged into the banlist discussion thread. -ISB
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StaffThis is quite different from obliterate + commander, as with obliterate, everyone at least still has their hands to have an answer, maybe some lands, and still have life totals to give a buffer and some time.
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Obliterate at least requires you to do all the work of getting them from 40 to zero. And while you can "cheat" with indestructible/enchantments/planeswalkers, but so can your opponents. Nothing avoids the Worldfire except the things you specifically want to, and they don't have to survive more than a turn or two after it.
I don't think the reanimate on t2 argument is any good against sylvan primordial. First of all, getting him out t2/t3 requires a pretty amazing hand. Not only that, but entomb + reanimate any high-cost big impact creature is going to have a similar impact on the game, if not worse. Think sheoldred, jin-gitaxias, elesh norn, etc. Should we ban all these cards because they are too powerful when a player abuses them and gets lucky? No.
Also, some people say it has taken primeval titan's place as the ubiquitous green high impact/EtB fattie in the format, and that is true. He is really good, and that is true too. But if we ban him, green will switch to another card - terastodon, craterhoof behemoth, avenger of zendikar, or woodfall primus. Every deck will have it (most have these now) and complaints will pile up about one - most likely terastodon - needing to be banned. He'll be just as devastating t2/t3, and maybe worse due to being able to target a single player. When paired up with blink and stuff, he will be obnoxious, and in the SP/PT free world, the card most called on to be banned. Since the RC in this scenario hit SP with the banhammer, they'll hit him too and keep moving down until I have to play with craw wurms.
Hopefully you can follow that, just wanted to get my thoughts on the debate out there. Why I think we shouldn't ban him, and kind of why I want my primeval titan back.
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None of these cards do what Sylvan Primordial does. None of them ramp first of all, only one has the destructive power of the Primordial, and the other two require a huge amount of resources to be in place already.
Sylvan Primordial just comes down, destroys 3 lands, and you get 3 lands, starting whenever you can do that. It's in a league of it's own, no one has been complaining about the other cards you've mentioned...ever? So, clearly your argument is not a good one as a result. (okay they do, but no one takes them seriously) As for primeval Titan, I think, and many probably agree, that in many ways the primordial is more powerful, and thus deserves to be banned more than the titan. And P-titan doesn't need to come back, no matter how much you want it back.
Green already dominates this format as the king of resource acquisition, and also is quite adept at resource denial. And S-primordial does both! It needs to go. I'm all for small banlists, but giving green more tools in those departments, and on the same card, is ludicrous.
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Rite isn't an argument. Rite + nearly any creature worth playing is insane. Six Fact or Fictions, six Demonic Tutors, 18 Bramble Crushes, six Vindicates,6 11/11 indestructible tramplers, 6 Regrowths,... You could build a deck of nothing but stuff that's dumb with Rite, Deadeye, or Progenitor Mimic. While you can do really crazy **** with Sylvan Primordial, the only unusual thing I've seen argued is that you can cheat him in insanely fast, to great impact. If you're doing that, though, there are much worse things you could be doing, like combo killing the whole table.
As far as it always being the right thing to copy/reanimate, I'd probably rather have FOF Sphinx unless I have forests. Often, mid to late game, I'd rather have a different Primordial. I'm also a fan of dudes that are much larger than a 6/8 if I can grant haste. Yes, it has the potential to dominate games, but so do a ton of other powerful, high mana cards, many of which are even more backbreaking and likely to instantly win the game. I'm honestly thinking butthurt about land destruction sneaking into decks might be the real reason so many people rail on Sylvan.
if you have someone playing primordial simply to blow up peoples manabases and not as an efficient noncreature removal spell, something that green has ALWAYS HAD, by the way, thats a degenerate PLAYER, not a degenerate CARD.
learn the difference, it could save your life.
What? So if someone uses a card well, they're degenerate? They have to intentionally choose bad targets?
That's silly. You're silly.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
they arent bad targets, though. artifacts, planeswalkers, enchantments, all great targets.
sol ring, scullclamp, asceticism, darksteel mutation, mind control variants, omniscience, doubling season, any planeswalker. all perfectly viable targets. and if your dropping sylvan primordial turn 3 so that your only targets are lands, then yes. you are a degenerate player, no 2 ways about it.
im saying that sylvan primordial should not be banned. if we ban primordial, we might as well ban every combo enabler as well. turn edh into 2/2 vanilla bear town so that nobody gets their feelings hurt about playing in the most open format in the game.
The targets chosen are almost always artifacts, enchantments, or planeswalkers before lands. Early game Sylvan Primordial is annoying but the caster quickly faces the wrath of the table. More often than not they get neutralized. Late game, unless its Deadeye combo, Sylvan Primordial is pretty lackluster
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There's a multitude of ways, really. You don't even need Reanimate as it is T2 and there's a handful of Animate Dead's as well.
You don't even need to Reanimate it, Natural Order Suffices. Anyone playing Radha?
You don't even need to Entomb it, T2 Survival of the Fittest into T3 any reanimation spell?
Black also has plenty of cheap Tutors, when you don't get that T2 or T3 play, Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor can get you there a turn later.
Red has Sneak Attack, Blue has Show and Tell, ..
You and me, both know there's plenty of ways to get it out ASAP and when your deck is built for it, you can do it.
There's also a BIG difference with reanimating a Sheoldred or Jin, they let your opponents untap, play another land, and gives them a chance to deal with it.
Sylvan says "I took your land, goodluck getting back on your feet, I'm untapping with 5+ lands next turn and removing me will only help me get back".
I'm not even trying to make a case for Sylvan's ban, but coming on here saying cheating him out early isn't an argument? C'mon man, who're you trying to fool?
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
I agree that there are plenty of answers how to deal with him, but the main problem is when he comes out on turn 2 or 3, leaving you with 1-2 lands and for caster like 7. Having 7 lands and my opponent 2, he done his job and I don't give a damn if you destroy him or not, because next thing that will come out will be your last. I don't remember when I won the game when opponent had 3x more lands than me after 3 rounds.
And also, check other primordials. White exiles one creature, red gains control of one creature, blue let you cast one instant or sorcery, and black returns creature. All 4 are very situational and are useless to cast early in game. For sylvan, he can be good on T2 or T3 but also on T8. How many out of does guys see real game? Hm? Like none? Sylvan is in every deck.
And someone mentioned other viable targets such as Omniscience. I think that when Omniscience hits the board, you lost actually, so there is no reason to mention it..
Thats some real good advice, except you know there are not a lot of other targets T2. Other than that you are spot on (sarcasm).
Yes, Primordial is a great card. Yes, it's advantages are very real. But it doesn't warp the entire game into a "bribe/clone the Primordial" fest like Primeval Titan did, and that banning was already rather contested.
That's just not true. For the most part mana is king, and an early game SP usually means you have no mana while I have tons. I may have made the game into Archenemy, but you're still way behind. Late game SP hitting the field a few times usually nets real card advantage because I've destroyed many problem cards, and again I've ramped myself ahead of the table. The simple fact is that he ALWAYS has a target to hit and you're ALWAYS going to ramp ahead of the table each time you have one enter the battlefield.
Not every card banned has to be an insta-win card. But the card should be looked at as seriously (perhaps more seriously) than HD or AN, because those two cards barely see play, and when they do, it's in two specific decks that are hyper-competitive. That's not the way the masses play Commander, and therefore it's not the RC's primary concern.
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