Yeah... no. "As this enters the battlefield" is a replacement effect that modifies how something enters the battlefield, doesn't use the stack, and is in effect by the time the creature is on the battlefield.
But that's the point. A resolved Tooth and Nail is NOT game ending at a semi-competitive table, because a well-placed piece of spot removal breaks the whole thing apart. Tap Kiki-jiki, targeting Conscripts, in response Swords to Plowshares, now try something else. Remove the last counter from Triskelion targeting itself, in response Swords to Plowshares, try something else. Triskelion Undying trigger, in response Stonecloaker, try something else. Palinchron + Phantasmal Image, in response to the bounce activation, Swords to Plowshares, try something else.
But if your opponent brings in Painter's + Iona, it's done. Unless you can kill them with what you have on board (through a 7/7), or you're running one of half a dozen narrow, expensive, and clunky answers, you've lost.
Ah, misread it. Thanks for clearing that up! Still not convinced that makes it unacceptable, however.
10/1/2009: Once the color is chosen, it's too late for opponents to respond by casting spells of that color. Iona is not yet in the battlefield at the time the color is chosen, so, for example, there's no way for an opponent to destroy it by casting Doom Blade if the chosen color is black.
But here is the question...you can't remove Iona after the color is named because she actually isn't on the battlefield. Could you remove a Painter's already on board by stacking a removal spell on top of the ETB trigger?
I am not sure, but either way you can most certainly remove servant in response to someone casting Iona.
But that's the point. A resolved Tooth and Nail is NOT game ending at a semi-competitive table, because a well-placed piece of spot removal breaks the whole thing apart. Tap Kiki-jiki, targeting Conscripts, in response Swords to Plowshares, now try something else. Remove the last counter from Triskelion targeting itself, in response Swords to Plowshares, try something else. Triskelion Undying trigger, in response Stonecloaker, try something else. Palinchron + Phantasmal Image, in response to the bounce activation, Swords to Plowshares, try something else.
Can you really respond to abilities with removal this way?
This would suggest otherwise:
112.7a. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability.
Thing is, when you're talking about Tooth and Nail, that's pretty much the one interaction which can't be stopped, and it's a two color combination and three card combo that requires you to know exactly what you're doing. Not exactly high on the RC's priority for banning.
The same can be said about many of the T&N combos, but as Wildfire said, most of them can be stopped with well-timed removal.
In a vacume most can be stopped by spot removal great how relevant us that??, In a real game bring your 1 STP and try and stop me from ending the game without passing turn good luck. However as dosu and you pointed out so what? The rc doesn't police 2 card combos and this one is 9 mana (slow) doesn't instant win (shakey) and while it's not open to spot removal it requires your clear the board of threats and people still have outs. Sorry that doesn't seem that strong not saying I wouldn't use it a "semi competitive" bant shell but I would not be willing to drop a color with the best tutors in the fame or blue to have my combo dodge spot rival when a competitive meta answers these cards with counterspells not spot removal and they can all kill just as fast if not faster with mana barriers as low as 2 with hermit Druid. If you did somehow pull
Off t+n in this meta by getting a fast ramp hand going first and having counter protection go ahead and get your win. But yet again all irrelevant to how the rc bans and the painter or ions must be banned if format will implode argument is still horrible. Sorry for the rant but the in a vacume t+n theory crafting is almost as bad as people who ask what your intuition pile is in a vacume answer " it doesn't matter I play with more than 1 card and so do my opponents"
I am not sure, but either way you can most certainly remove servant in response to someone casting Iona.
Choosing the color is on an ETB trigger.
Can you really respond to abilities with removal this way?
This would suggest otherwise:
Choosing the color on Painter's Servant is ALSO an "As ~ enters the battlefield" trigger.
The specific situation here is when searched off of a Tooth and Nail, in which case there is absolutely zero chance for any removal spells to be cast. There is no window when either creature is in play and both colors have not been chosen.
As far as disrupting the other combos go, removing one of the pieces stops them pretty cold. Sure, the Undying ability will still resolve, but without Mikaeus in play anymore the Triskelion won't do anything.
Thing is, when you're talking about Tooth and Nail, that's pretty much the one interaction which can't be stopped, and it's a two color combination and three card combo that requires you to know exactly what you're doing. Not exactly high on the RC's priority for banning.
The same can be said about many of the T&N combos, but as Wildfire said, most of them can be stopped with well-timed removal.
It's not a three card combo. It's a one card combo: Tooth and Nail. It requires two other cards in your deck, yes, but that does not make it a three card combo.
Wait, why are we even discussing Iona/Painters combo? Painters is banned, and IF they unbanned it, it's a safe bet they'd ban Iona simultaneously.
Edit: Typing one-handed, fixed typos. (Get your mind out of the gutter, I'm not doing that.)
Painter's is a card that people talk about removing from the list a lot. Unfortunately, they feel somehow that Grindstone + Servant is too good, meaning they'd have to ban two cards to unban servant (Iona being the other) at which point we're not really making progress.
I've tested him in my Cube, which is a great example of an environment where people CAN'T just try too hard. He was so mediocre that I recently cut him, as there's only a few things he interacts with (like Oona, Queen of the Fae and Teysa, Orzhov Scion) and none of the interactions are that amazing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
This is silly why ? What makes this combo better than the other hundred 2 card combos that cost less mana ?
I'm not going so far as to say that the RC said it was one or the other, but at least on the official forums, everyone is convinced that only one can exist in the format. Whether the RC agrees with that, I don't know for sure.
It's not a three card combo. It's a one card combo: Tooth and Nail. It requires two other cards in your deck, yes, but that does not make it a three card combo.
Semantics. Combo in the traditional sense may make it a one card combo because it requires one card in hand to go off, but what we're discussing still requires three slots in your deck devoted to it. My point still stands that we're talking about an interaction that requires three cards and 2+ colors.
Choosing the color on Painter's Servant is ALSO an "As ~ enters the battlefield" trigger.
The specific situation here is when searched off of a Tooth and Nail, in which case there is absolutely zero chance for any removal spells to be cast. There is no window when either creature is in play and both colors have not been chosen.
As far as disrupting the other combos go, removing one of the pieces stops them pretty cold. Sure, the Undying ability will still resolve, but without Mikaeus in play anymore the Triskelion won't do anything.
It's not a three card combo. It's a one card combo: Tooth and Nail. It requires two other cards in your deck, yes, but that does not make it a three card combo.
Painter's is a card that people talk about removing from the list a lot. Unfortunately, they feel somehow that Grindstone + Servant is too good, meaning they'd have to ban two cards to unban servant (Iona being the other) at which point we're not really making progress.
I've tested him in my Cube, which is a great example of an environment where people CAN'T just try too hard. He was so mediocre that I recently cut him, as there's only a few things he interacts with (like Oona, Queen of the Fae and Teysa, Orzhov Scion) and none of the interactions are that amazing.
Ok that's all great. Now please explain to me why it matters ? Do all legal tooth and nail combos need to lose to STP? Why ?? for the good of the format ??? Sorry I don't buy it there is nothing casual about a tooth and nail combo and in a competitive meta it's no where near top tier. Once you delve into competitive comparing combos in different colors now evaluates different decks. Honestly if your competitive deck is control based it's either killing the mana so they can't ever cast t+n they have a million counters to stop it or they play combo and win while the player going for a mana barrier 9 combo watches them win turn 3-5 while it's still ramping and tutoring. Now with Iona your bant shell or 5 cc so you either lose the best tutors in a deck leaning on 1 card or you are in hermit Druid colors and playing t+n is just a bad finisher compared to storm or one of 5-6 faster more resilant combo decks and now you have to play a cmc 9 card you don't want and a useless 2 drop outside if combo or blowing a tutor for some jankey combo at lower cmc I guess you could argue painters stone since that us actualy fast but is it hermit Druid fast ? Don't we have rip helm? As someone who has tested this personally I would never switch from bug shell to bant shell for this combo demon chron image clex tide spout these are all better ways to win in a real game. I'd say 75% of the time I cast tooth and nail and someone goes STP I win that turn anyway and 95% of the time I win even if I have to pass. In addition at least half the time someone has a spot removal I can counter it. Kiki combos are bad I lottery cannot tber the last time I resolved tooth and nail and lost. I can however rember the billion times it's ate a counter spell and all the times it was far to slow for the faster decks in the format. Thus format has much bigger issues than bant getting to use a T+N combo.
I'm not going so far as to say that the RC said it was one or the other, but at least on the official forums, everyone is convinced that only one can exist in the format. Whether the RC agrees with that, I don't know for sure.
Semantics. Combo in the traditional sense may make it a one card combo because it requires one card in hand to go off, but what we're discussing still requires three slots in your deck devoted to it. My point still stands that we're talking about an interaction that requires three cards and 2+ colors.
Protean Hulk requires 2+ colors and a minimum of FIVE cards in your deck (the most compact two-color combo being Viscera Seer + Phyrexian Delver, delve the hulk, sac him for Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, sac Delver to persist, delve the hulk, sac him for Triskelion, win), not even counting whatever you use to get the hulk to die in the first place, and it's on the banlist.
Ok that's all great. Now please explain to me why it matters ? Do all legal tooth and nail combos need to lose to STP? Why ?? for the good of the format ??? Sorry I don't buy it there is nothing casual about a tooth and nail combo and in a competitive meta it's no where near top tier. Once you delve into competitive comparing combos in different colors now evaluates different decks. Honestly if your competitive deck is control based it's either killing the mana so they can't ever cast t+n they have a million counters to stop it or they play combo and win while the player going for a mana barrier 9 combo watches them win turn 3-5 while it's still ramping and tutoring. Now with Iona your bant shell or 5 cc so you either lose the best tutors in a deck leaning on 1 card or you are in hermit Druid colors and playing t+n is just a bad finisher compared to storm or one of 5-6 faster more resilant combo decks and now you have to play a cmc 9 card you don't want and a useless 2 drop outside if combo or blowing a tutor for some jankey combo at lower cmc I guess you could argue painters stone since that us actualy fast but is it hermit Druid fast ? Don't we have rip helm? As someone who has tested this personally I would never switch from bug shell to bant shell for this combo demon chron image clex tide spout these are all better ways to win in a real game. I'd say 75% of the time I cast tooth and nail and someone goes STP I win that turn anyway and 95% of the time I win even if I have to pass. In addition at least half the time someone has a spot removal I can counter it. Kiki combos are bad I lottery cannot tber the last time I resolved tooth and nail and lost. I can however rember the billion times it's ate a counter spell and all the times it was far to slow for the faster decks in the format. Thus format has much bigger issues than bant getting to use a T+N combo.
Your post is incredibly difficult to read so I'll just address the main question:
Why is it important that all T&N combos have a removal-based answer?
So that there is interaction with the card other than just countermagic.
I strongly believe in the power of self-regulation, and having the option to break up T&N combos with removal makes it a very regulatable card. With Iona-Servant, it's not, and that's pretty toxic to the format in my opinion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Your post is incredibly difficult to read so I'll just address the main question:
Why is it important that all T&N combos have a removal-based answer?
So that there is interaction with the card other than just countermagic.
I strongly believe in the power of self-regulation, and having the option to break up T&N combos with removal makes it a very regulatable card. With Iona-Servant, it's not, and that's pretty toxic to the format in my opinion.
Wizards learned a long time ago that the best course of action when banning cards is to simply take out the engine and not the win conditions. Tooth and Nail is the real problem here. Taking that card out of the equation will solve a lot more problems than taking Iona out.
Wizards learned a long time ago that the best course of action when banning cards is to simply take out the engine and not the win conditions. Tooth and Nail is the real problem here. Taking that card out of the equation will solve a lot more problems than taking Iona out.
If we're going to start banning "broken" engines we're going to be here a while.
Maybe we can just trade Iona for Servant, as she's terrible anyway?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
Wizards learned a long time ago that the best course of action when banning cards is to simply take out the engine and not the win conditions. Tooth and Nail is the real problem here. Taking that card out of the equation will solve a lot more problems than taking Iona out.
personally, i think tooth and nail takes away a lot more from this format than it actually provides. i would be the first to advocate for its banning. I don't necessarily think it is too powerful, its just so unexciting and so easy to win with. There is nothing as anti-climatic as someone TaN-ing for the win
Protean Hulk requires 2+ colors and a minimum of FIVE cards in your deck (the most compact two-color combo being Viscera Seer + Phyrexian Delver, delve the hulk, sac him for Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, sac Delver to persist, delve the hulk, sac him for Triskelion, win), not even counting whatever you use to get the hulk to die in the first place, and it's on the banlist.
I'd like to see Hulk unbanned, so you're preaching to the choir.
personally, i think tooth and nail takes away a lot more from this format than it actually provides. i would be the first to advocate for its banning. I don't necessarily think it is too powerful, its just so unexciting and so easy to win with. There is nothing as anti-climatic as someone TaN-ing for the win
What's unexciting to you is exciting to others.
I find 3 hour games anti-climatic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
If we're going to start banning "broken" engines we're going to be here a while.
Maybe we can just trade Iona for Servant, as she's terrible anyway?
I feel like that would make everyone much happier, and I can't for the life of me figure out why they won't do it. Ohnoes, Grindstone! Not the scariest combo, and even if that needs to be banned as well it is obvious that the collective fun level of Iona/Grindstone is roughly a thousand times lower than Painter's Servant's.
What's unexciting to you is exciting to others.
I find 3 hour games anti-climatic.
meh i find your point with regards to tooth and nail to be a vastly minority-held view. I don't think you can say with any honesty that most players find a one-card win very exciting. Unfortunately TaN is a one-card win.
I don't enjoy 3 hour games either, but I do enjoy 1 hour games. They are heaps of fun until someone tutors out some boring and obvious kiki combo or dumps some eldrazi and thinks they are being clever at MTG
Well then there's our disagreement I don't think it matters that there is no removal based answer as 9 mana is slow and hermit Druid is a card . I don't mean just that I deck I mean tons of more degenerate decks . So what a 9 mana win that's only answered by counters ( or board presence I'm looking at you zur and friends ) is not an issue. Most competitive decks run U and most if them win as fast or faster than you can ramp to 9 Tutor and resolve the card. It's like ad Nausuam at twice the cost at sorc speed and not as good
If we're going to start banning "broken" engines we're going to be here a while.
Maybe we can just trade Iona for Servant, as she's terrible anyway?
The only real problem when people bring up Iona and Servant is when they're fetched off of Tooth and Nail. In other situations they're not any better than any of the other 2 card combos that exist out there. When people call for a ban on Iona, my point is that it would be far more productive to simply ban Tooth and Nail.
I'm not advocating for a ban on engines in general and it's disingenuous to imply that I'm doing so. That being said, I certainly wouldn't shed any tears if many of the combo engines out there did get banned.
Well then there's our disagreement I don't think it matters that there is no removal based answer as 9 mana is slow and hermit Druid is a card . I don't mean just that I deck I mean tons of more degenerate decks . So what a 9 mana win that's only answered by counters ( or board presence I'm looking at you zur and friends ) is not an issue. Most competitive decks run U and most if them win as fast or faster than you can ramp to 9 Tutor and resolve the card. It's like ad Nausuam at twice the cost at sorc speed and not as good
moxnix, i totally appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think the banlist was designed with players like you in mind. If we were to look at some of the things on the current list, a lot of them wouldn't be relevant to your playstyle at all. I'm sure you didn't have a problem with sundering titan or primeval titan because they were too slow. In fairness to the banlist however, its target audience are playing longer, slower games and, IMO, TaN is the kind of card which ruins the games of players that the banlist is aimed at
meh i find your point with regards to tooth and nail to be a vastly minority-held view. I don't think you can say with any honesty that most players find a one-card win very exciting. Unfortunately TaN is a one-card win.
I don't enjoy 3 hour games either, but I do enjoy 1 hour games. They are heaps of fun until someone tutors out some boring and obvious kiki combo or dumps some eldrazi and thinks they are being clever at MTG
Most of the time when I see a resolved T&N they grab something game-changing and powerful, but not an I WIN combo.
I feel like that would make everyone much happier, and I can't for the life of me figure out why they won't do it. Ohnoes, Grindstone! Not the scariest combo, and even if that needs to be banned as well it is obvious that the collective fun level of Iona/Grindstone is roughly a thousand times lower than Painter's Servant's.
Again, your definition of fun is not shared by everyone.
We have seen countless times that people are very divided on this.
Ah, misread it. Thanks for clearing that up! Still not convinced that makes it unacceptable, however.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
I am not sure, but either way you can most certainly remove servant in response to someone casting Iona.
Choosing the color is on an ETB trigger.
Can you really respond to abilities with removal this way?
This would suggest otherwise:
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
Edit: And the discussion is when they ETB off of a T&N, not casting one after the other.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Ah, you are correct, changing "When" to "As" makes such a difference.
That does seem pretty strong, stronger than Linvala and Living Plane even.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
The same can be said about many of the T&N combos, but as Wildfire said, most of them can be stopped with well-timed removal.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Off t+n in this meta by getting a fast ramp hand going first and having counter protection go ahead and get your win. But yet again all irrelevant to how the rc bans and the painter or ions must be banned if format will implode argument is still horrible. Sorry for the rant but the in a vacume t+n theory crafting is almost as bad as people who ask what your intuition pile is in a vacume answer " it doesn't matter I play with more than 1 card and so do my opponents"
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Edit: Typing one-handed, fixed typos. (Get your mind out of the gutter, I'm not doing that.)
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
This is silly why ? What makes this combo better than the other hundred 2 card combos that cost less mana ?
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffChoosing the color on Painter's Servant is ALSO an "As ~ enters the battlefield" trigger.
The specific situation here is when searched off of a Tooth and Nail, in which case there is absolutely zero chance for any removal spells to be cast. There is no window when either creature is in play and both colors have not been chosen.
As far as disrupting the other combos go, removing one of the pieces stops them pretty cold. Sure, the Undying ability will still resolve, but without Mikaeus in play anymore the Triskelion won't do anything.
It's not a three card combo. It's a one card combo: Tooth and Nail. It requires two other cards in your deck, yes, but that does not make it a three card combo.
Painter's is a card that people talk about removing from the list a lot. Unfortunately, they feel somehow that Grindstone + Servant is too good, meaning they'd have to ban two cards to unban servant (Iona being the other) at which point we're not really making progress.
I've tested him in my Cube, which is a great example of an environment where people CAN'T just try too hard. He was so mediocre that I recently cut him, as there's only a few things he interacts with (like Oona, Queen of the Fae and Teysa, Orzhov Scion) and none of the interactions are that amazing.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I'm not going so far as to say that the RC said it was one or the other, but at least on the official forums, everyone is convinced that only one can exist in the format. Whether the RC agrees with that, I don't know for sure.
Semantics. Combo in the traditional sense may make it a one card combo because it requires one card in hand to go off, but what we're discussing still requires three slots in your deck devoted to it. My point still stands that we're talking about an interaction that requires three cards and 2+ colors.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Killing Kiki doesn't stop the ability, but it prevents the controller from using Conscripts/Rest. Angel to untap him and keep going.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Ok that's all great. Now please explain to me why it matters ? Do all legal tooth and nail combos need to lose to STP? Why ?? for the good of the format ??? Sorry I don't buy it there is nothing casual about a tooth and nail combo and in a competitive meta it's no where near top tier. Once you delve into competitive comparing combos in different colors now evaluates different decks. Honestly if your competitive deck is control based it's either killing the mana so they can't ever cast t+n they have a million counters to stop it or they play combo and win while the player going for a mana barrier 9 combo watches them win turn 3-5 while it's still ramping and tutoring. Now with Iona your bant shell or 5 cc so you either lose the best tutors in a deck leaning on 1 card or you are in hermit Druid colors and playing t+n is just a bad finisher compared to storm or one of 5-6 faster more resilant combo decks and now you have to play a cmc 9 card you don't want and a useless 2 drop outside if combo or blowing a tutor for some jankey combo at lower cmc I guess you could argue painters stone since that us actualy fast but is it hermit Druid fast ? Don't we have rip helm? As someone who has tested this personally I would never switch from bug shell to bant shell for this combo demon chron image clex tide spout these are all better ways to win in a real game. I'd say 75% of the time I cast tooth and nail and someone goes STP I win that turn anyway and 95% of the time I win even if I have to pass. In addition at least half the time someone has a spot removal I can counter it. Kiki combos are bad I lottery cannot tber the last time I resolved tooth and nail and lost. I can however rember the billion times it's ate a counter spell and all the times it was far to slow for the faster decks in the format. Thus format has much bigger issues than bant getting to use a T+N combo.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffProtean Hulk requires 2+ colors and a minimum of FIVE cards in your deck (the most compact two-color combo being Viscera Seer + Phyrexian Delver, delve the hulk, sac him for Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, sac Delver to persist, delve the hulk, sac him for Triskelion, win), not even counting whatever you use to get the hulk to die in the first place, and it's on the banlist.
Your post is incredibly difficult to read so I'll just address the main question:
Why is it important that all T&N combos have a removal-based answer?
So that there is interaction with the card other than just countermagic.
I strongly believe in the power of self-regulation, and having the option to break up T&N combos with removal makes it a very regulatable card. With Iona-Servant, it's not, and that's pretty toxic to the format in my opinion.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Wizards learned a long time ago that the best course of action when banning cards is to simply take out the engine and not the win conditions. Tooth and Nail is the real problem here. Taking that card out of the equation will solve a lot more problems than taking Iona out.
If we're going to start banning "broken" engines we're going to be here a while.
Maybe we can just trade Iona for Servant, as she's terrible anyway?
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
personally, i think tooth and nail takes away a lot more from this format than it actually provides. i would be the first to advocate for its banning. I don't necessarily think it is too powerful, its just so unexciting and so easy to win with. There is nothing as anti-climatic as someone TaN-ing for the win
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
I'd like to see Hulk unbanned, so you're preaching to the choir.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
What's unexciting to you is exciting to others.
I find 3 hour games anti-climatic.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
I feel like that would make everyone much happier, and I can't for the life of me figure out why they won't do it. Ohnoes, Grindstone! Not the scariest combo, and even if that needs to be banned as well it is obvious that the collective fun level of Iona/Grindstone is roughly a thousand times lower than Painter's Servant's.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
meh i find your point with regards to tooth and nail to be a vastly minority-held view. I don't think you can say with any honesty that most players find a one-card win very exciting. Unfortunately TaN is a one-card win.
I don't enjoy 3 hour games either, but I do enjoy 1 hour games. They are heaps of fun until someone tutors out some boring and obvious kiki combo or dumps some eldrazi and thinks they are being clever at MTG
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
The only real problem when people bring up Iona and Servant is when they're fetched off of Tooth and Nail. In other situations they're not any better than any of the other 2 card combos that exist out there. When people call for a ban on Iona, my point is that it would be far more productive to simply ban Tooth and Nail.
I'm not advocating for a ban on engines in general and it's disingenuous to imply that I'm doing so. That being said, I certainly wouldn't shed any tears if many of the combo engines out there did get banned.
moxnix, i totally appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think the banlist was designed with players like you in mind. If we were to look at some of the things on the current list, a lot of them wouldn't be relevant to your playstyle at all. I'm sure you didn't have a problem with sundering titan or primeval titan because they were too slow. In fairness to the banlist however, its target audience are playing longer, slower games and, IMO, TaN is the kind of card which ruins the games of players that the banlist is aimed at
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
Most of the time when I see a resolved T&N they grab something game-changing and powerful, but not an I WIN combo.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Again, your definition of fun is not shared by everyone.
We have seen countless times that people are very divided on this.
Also, Helm of Obedience combo is actually better and already legal.
If this were really the case there would be no one complaining to ban Tooth and Nail because no one would play it.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master