I have to admit... Bane of Progress certainly earns it's name. Gotta give Wizards that much credit.
Honestly, my problem with the card is that it is so gratuitous in its hatred of certain archetypes that it is almost painful. I mean... My Kemba Equipment deck is pretty much hosed by this one card. The only things that survive are the Kaldra pieces (assuming I have the indestructible Sheild out) and Darksteel Plate. Yes, I can find ways of dealing with it, but all I wanted to do was play with equipment cards and make cat tokens in my mono-white deck. Now I have to deal with some jerk blowing me out. Lol, my friends Saffi deck will be sure to do so repeatedly. I guess I should just lube up now...cause man that will be painful. I will not even delve into how much this hurts my G/W Enchantress deck...or the fact that we just got to a set with a ton of cool enchantments that outside of the God cards all die to this monster, Sigh.
But the fact is it will never be banned or ban worthy in this format. Wizards had just enough sense to make sure it hit every artifact and enchantment on the board. While some decks, like my friends Saffi deck, that almost exclusively rely on spell and creature based ramp will be unaffected and thus be able to use the card to it's fullest...others will have to weigh whether it is worth potentially hurting their board position to run this guy. I know I have a ETB Jenara deck that this will not see play in simply because I run too many enchantments and artifacts that this guy will pop. The saving grace of this design is that it has perhaps too much hate.
Still, I really hate inelegant cards like this. Cards that attempt to stifle creativity. Which is a lot of what draws me to EDH.
I have to admit... Bane of Progress certainly earns it's name. Gotta give Wizards that much credit.
Honestly, my problem with the card is that it is so gratuitous in its hatred of certain archetypes that it is almost painful. I mean... My Kemba Equipment deck is pretty much hosed by this one card. The only things that survive are the Kaldra pieces (assuming I have the indestructible Sheild out) and Darksteel Plate. Yes, I can find ways of dealing with it, but all I wanted to do was play with equipment cards and make cat tokens in my mono-white deck. Now I have to deal with some jerk blowing me out. Lol, my friends Saffi deck will be sure to do so repeatedly. I guess I should just lube up now...cause man that will be painful. I will not even delve into how much this hurts my G/W Enchantress deck...or the fact that we just got to a set with a ton of cool enchantments that outside of the God cards all die to this monster, Sigh.
But the fact is it will never be banned or ban worthy in this format. Wizards had just enough sense to make sure it hit every artifact and enchantment on the board. While some decks, like my friends Saffi deck, that almost exclusively rely on spell and creature based ramp will be unaffected and thus be able to use the card to it's fullest...others will have to weigh whether it is worth potentially hurting their board position to run this guy. I know I have a ETB Jenara deck that this will not see play in simply because I run too many enchantments and artifacts that this guy will pop. The saving grace of this design is that it has perhaps too much hate.
Still, I really hate inelegant cards like this. Cards that attempt to stifle creativity. Which is a lot of what draws me to EDH.
If you're weak to this Bane of Progress, then consider running extra creature hate, especially board wipes. The types of decks that really stand to benefit from it rely more on cards besides artifacts and enchantments to win, and this usually means creatures. Being a green creature, they will probably be running lots of creature tutors to find it and other toolbox creatures. You can probably blow them out by casting a Wrath of God just as much as they can blow you out with Bane.
If you're weak to this Bane of Progress, then consider running extra creature hate, especially board wipes. The types of decks that really stand to benefit from it rely more on cards besides artifacts and enchantments to win, and this usually means creatures. Being a green creature, they will probably be running lots of creature tutors to find it and other toolbox creatures. You can probably blow them out by casting a Wrath of God just as much as they can blow you out with Bane.
Bane of Progress really isn't that bad after looking at it for more than 5 minutes. The simple solution is to play around it, and play Jester's Cap in all your decks to remove it from the game. I know Torpor Orb won't ride you to victory, but it will delay the ramp activities from most of the green player's creature list.
I have to admit... Bane of Progress certainly earns it's name. Gotta give Wizards that much credit.
Honestly, my problem with the card is that it is so gratuitous in its hatred of certain archetypes that it is almost painful. I mean... My Kemba Equipment deck is pretty much hosed by this one card. The only things that survive are the Kaldra pieces (assuming I have the indestructible Sheild out) and Darksteel Plate. Yes, I can find ways of dealing with it, but all I wanted to do was play with equipment cards and make cat tokens in my mono-white deck. Now I have to deal with some jerk blowing me out. Lol, my friends Saffi deck will be sure to do so repeatedly. I guess I should just lube up now...cause man that will be painful. I will not even delve into how much this hurts my G/W Enchantress deck...or the fact that we just got to a set with a ton of cool enchantments that outside of the God cards all die to this monster, Sigh.
But the fact is it will never be banned or ban worthy in this format. Wizards had just enough sense to make sure it hit every artifact and enchantment on the board. While some decks, like my friends Saffi deck, that almost exclusively rely on spell and creature based ramp will be unaffected and thus be able to use the card to it's fullest...others will have to weigh whether it is worth potentially hurting their board position to run this guy. I know I have a ETB Jenara deck that this will not see play in simply because I run too many enchantments and artifacts that this guy will pop. The saving grace of this design is that it has perhaps too much hate.
Still, I really hate inelegant cards like this. Cards that attempt to stifle creativity. Which is a lot of what draws me to EDH.
If this creature was white.... no one would be complaining. I hate the fact that they printed it, it think it just pushes green over the top and makes EDH go green or go home. But it's no where near banworthy, just a game changer.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
If this creature was white.... no one would be complaining. I hate the fact that they printed it, it think it just pushes green over the top and makes EDH go green or go home. But it's no where near banworthy, just a game changer.
I wouldn't say Green is the best colour for EDH to obtain wins. Outside of Galspanic's house, I win most my games and I don't play Green. That doesn't apply to me.
Game changer is right though.
Now, green players can complain a bit less about why X is unfair and how Blue/Black has so much more advantages in Y.
You are right, if this card was White or even Red; no one would complain. If this card was 3RW Bane of Progress; 3/4, comes into play Austere Command for each permanent destroyed this way, Bane of Progress gets a +1/+1 counter.
Cryo, i'm a little bit dissapointed by that answer. Which deck playing green does rely on artifacts? In a non-MLD environment, they ramp with lands. Other colours need the artis to compete. To claim this one is not one-sided is just... well, short sighted to say the least.
This card doesn't ruin competitive metas, but it ruins the casual meta. and that's not a good thing, because the rest of MTG is already competitive, and a lot of people found their haven in EDH.
By my count, your Stonebrow deck runs 14 artifacts/enchantments, and your Nath deck runs 17.
Why are people so narrow-minded by this card that all they can think is that it promotes land ramp? Yes, green is king for being able to land ramp, but so what? Every color has access to colorless land-fetchers that are EDH playable (Sad Robot, Bauble, and now Burnished Hart). Each color also has multiple mana doubling rocks.
If this creature was white.... no one would be complaining. I hate the fact that they printed it, it think it just pushes green over the top and makes EDH go green or go home. But it's no where near banworthy, just a game changer.
Why? Green is solidly in the color of mass artiifact removal, as well as enchantment removal. It also is big on creatures getting bigger. There is nothing wrong with it being green, although WG or W/G would work just as well (and upset a less people). People are complaining because OH MY GOD GREEN GOT ANOTHER ETB CREATURE
Bane is going to be jammed in every good stuff deck that has a hard time dealing with stax, lock down, control builds.
Guess what? please and thank you.
You just did our job for us under the guise of thinking you're actually ruining our strategy.
You're not. Yes, I over reacted at first, but after sobering up and actually thinking about it, I would never counter that spell. I realized I don't over extend, I sand bag until it's right to play cards, and I bait. Blowing up my dumb three things while wrecking everyone's mana rocks makes it very juicy to nuke lands, stick a smoke stack , or drop a
trading post.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Why? Green is solidly in the color of mass artiifact removal, as well as enchantment removal. It also is big on creatures getting bigger. There is nothing wrong with it being green, although WG or W/G would work just as well (and upset a less people). People are complaining because OH MY GOD GREEN GOT ANOTHER ETB CREATURE
Like I said before, this card has been a long time coming; I just never expected it to be attached to an ETB trigger. I mean, look how careful they have been with wraths on creatures in the past. Is far as I can see this is the first unconditional wrath attached to an ETB trigger. The demons they've printed, the Myojins, they all have to be cast. The closest thing I can think of is Sunblast Angel, and he only hits tapped creatures.
It was inevitable really, it's just part of power creep. People are just annoyed that green keeps getting these crazy value cards. I'm not saying other colors don't, but green is unarguably the poster child for this ETB movement. This is compounded by the fact that wizards seems on a mission to print as many of the damned things as possible without printing new solutions.
I don't have a problem with ETB creatures, I think they are awesome. What I have a problem with is that they have become this dominant force in commander that continues to go unchecked. Wizards seems to be on a crusade to make commander more casual, as evidenced by cards like From the Ashes and Unexpectedly Absent, but it is backfiring; more and more people are gravitating toward a cut-throat mentality as a result. A year or two ago if I had posted a stax deck on the commander forum I would have been promptly dispatched by an angry mob of pitchfork wielding highlanders. That has changed dramatically and I believe it's because people are fed up.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
Bane of Progress is not worse than any of the thousands of creature wraths.
Why is it so awful to have a mass artifact/enchantments destruction when wrathing creatures is so much easier?
It just promotes ramp and downgrades artifact ramp. The problem is that a lot of decks will be running green instead of any color because it's not affected by:
Artifact hate
Enchantment hate
But is only affected by something that hurts all players:Mass Land Destruction.
In other words, it promotes Green and shoves to the side all other colors that don't have land ramp or counters, which means that most decks will be running blue or green or both.
By my count, your Stonebrow deck runs 14 artifacts/enchantments, and your Nath deck runs 17.
Why are people so narrow-minded by this card that all they can think is that it promotes land ramp? Yes, green is king for being able to land ramp, but so what? Every color has access to colorless land-fetchers that are EDH playable (Sad Robot, Bauble, and now Burnished Hart). Each color also has multiple mana doubling rocks.
Why? Green is solidly in the color of mass artiifact removal, as well as enchantment removal. It also is big on creatures getting bigger. There is nothing wrong with it being green, although WG or W/G would work just as well (and upset a less people). People are complaining because OH MY GOD GREEN GOT ANOTHER ETB CREATURE
I just feel green is way to saturated compared to other colors. White has no real ramping options outside of mana rocks. Green and mana rocks don't belong in the same sentence.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I agree with you on many things, Phil, but Balance should never, ever be taken off the banlist. Too overpowered, by far. Suggesting it's needed to counter things like Bane of Progress is like suggesting people need heavy artillery for personal defense or hunting.
I just feel green is way to saturated compared to other colors. White has no real ramping options outside of mana rocks. Green and mana rocks don't belong in the same sentence.
None of the other colors have consistent ramping options aside from rocks. That's just the nature of the color pie. Look at Bane strictly as a card and a color. Green is the color of nature. It fights technology (artifacts) and magic (enchantments), proof of which is in the large number of targeted removal green gets towards those two card types, as well as the occasional wrath. Bane of Progress is a very green card. If you or anyone want's to argue that, I feel they're wrong.
Now, do you want to argue that Wizards has been pushing players towards certain colors and strategies because of the numerous cards it prints, perhaps with the best of intentions? Sure, I'll agree with you there and back you up. I simply don't agree that Bane of Progress, by itself, is pushing players away from mana rocks and towards ramp, because as you or maybe others have said, green players usually already rely on Rampant Growths. As proof, when don challenged me on my assertion, I pointed out that his green decks each contained over a dozen cards that would be destroyed by Bane. This is my overall motivation, to get everyone to stop focusing on their Sol Rings that will get blown up and remember that their Swords will too.
This isn't all that dissimilar than Sylvan Primordial - everyone always remembers when their basic Mountain got blown up, but never remembers their Gauntlet of Power getting targeted.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
None of the other colors have consistent ramping options aside from rocks. That's just the nature of the color pie. Look at Bane strictly as a card and a color. Green is the color of nature. It fights technology (artifacts) and magic (enchantments), proof of which is in the large number of targeted removal green gets towards those two card types, as well as the occasional wrath. Bane of Progress is a very green card. If you or anyone want's to argue that, I feel they're wrong.
Now, do you want to argue that Wizards has been pushing players towards certain colors and strategies because of the numerous cards it prints, perhaps with the best of intentions? Sure, I'll agree with you there and back you up. I simply don't agree that Bane of Progress, by itself, is pushing players away from mana rocks and towards ramp, because as you or maybe others have said, green players usually already rely on Rampant Growths. As proof, when don challenged me on my assertion, I pointed out that his green decks each contained over a dozen cards that would be destroyed by Bane. This is my overall motivation, to get everyone to stop focusing on their Sol Rings that will get blown up and remember that their Swords will too.
This isn't all that dissimilar than Sylvan Primordial - everyone always remembers when their basic Mountain got blown up, but never remembers their Gauntlet of Power getting targeted.
I agree with this.
Mana rocks are actually faster then green ramp, but are more likely to be blown out by board wipes. That's just how it goes. I really don't know why people are so offended by Bane of Progress. Sure we get purify on a dude, but it's not like you can keep flickering it to get more advantage. You play it once and blow up everyone's stuff, and then hold onto a flicker spell/reanimation spell to retrigger it's ability when people start playing more artifacts/enchantments? It's not a card you can mindlessly abuse. After the first wipe, people are generally going to be smarter and not puke vulnerable permanents back onto the field. With Sylvan Primordial I could at least see why people were afraid of it. With Bane I really can't see why it's causing such an uproar. If you don't overextend, and have a well rounded deck I don't see how Bane will shut your deck down.
None of the other colors have consistent ramping options aside from rocks. That's just the nature of the color pie. Look at Bane strictly as a card and a color. Green is the color of nature. It fights technology (artifacts) and magic (enchantments), proof of which is in the large number of targeted removal green gets towards those two card types, as well as the occasional wrath. Bane of Progress is a very green card. If you or anyone want's to argue that, I feel they're wrong.
Now, do you want to argue that Wizards has been pushing players towards certain colors and strategies because of the numerous cards it prints, perhaps with the best of intentions? Sure, I'll agree with you there and back you up. I simply don't agree that Bane of Progress, by itself, is pushing players away from mana rocks and towards ramp, because as you or maybe others have said, green players usually already rely on Rampant Growths. As proof, when don challenged me on my assertion, I pointed out that his green decks each contained over a dozen cards that would be destroyed by Bane. This is my overall motivation, to get everyone to stop focusing on their Sol Rings that will get blown up and remember that their Swords will too.
This isn't all that dissimilar than Sylvan Primordial - everyone always remembers when their basic Mountain got blown up, but never remembers their Gauntlet of Power getting targeted.
Bane of progress is a fracturing gust that can easily be recurred in a color that has decent recursion and the best land ramp in the game. You'd have to be stupid to go mana rocks for ramp at this point. It's just safer to add green and ramp without having random bane of progress knock you 5 turns back. If MLD was acceptable in most edh playgroups this wouldn't even be an issue, but you can't run MLD because you become "that guy."
EDH is really simple. Step one, does the commander have green? If yes you have an advantage, if no, you will get blown out by bane of progress and out ramped by green.
I agree with this.
Mana rocks are actually faster then green ramp, but are more likely to be blown out by board wipes. That's just how it goes. I really don't know why people are so offended by Bane of Progress. Sure we get purify on a dude, but it's not like you can keep flickering it to get more advantage. You play it once and blow up everyone's stuff, and then hold onto a flicker spell/reanimation spell to retrigger it's ability when people start playing more artifacts/enchantments? It's not a card you can mindlessly abuse. After the first wipe, people are generally going to be smarter and not puke vulnerable permanents back onto the field. With Sylvan Primordial I could at least see why people were afraid of it. With Bane I really can't see why it's causing such an uproar. If you don't overextend, and have a well rounded deck I don't see how Bane will shut your deck down.
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I'm offended because with bane you can flicker it and recur it for next to nothing whenever you see a artifact or enchantment. It's a royal pain in the ass and I have to abuse it.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
When i saw Bane spoiled, it sent chills down my spin. I love the challenge of building a deck outside of green. Heavily leaning on mana rocks to keep up with green ramp is a must in every deck. With Bane about to hit the scene, its not an option anymore. I could handle an Austere Command or Vandal Blast from time to time. A constant recursion/flicker of Bane is alot worst.
I'm offended because with bane you can flicker it and recur it for next to nothing whenever you see a artifact or enchantment. It's a royal pain in the ass and I have to abuse it.
Whelp I won't mind if you ever play against me. Only one of my decks has a lot of artifacts/enchantments and that deck is Slobad. I doubt I'll run Bane as the people I play with don't run a lot of enchantments/artifacts. Although I do like how I can recur it with reveilark.
I think it's interesting that everyone seems to think that ramp is required in EDH. I mean sure, you're obviously running crypt and ring because they're broken as hell (and so is any green player) but past those mana accel really depends on the deck. Bane definitely hurts non-green ramp decks, but I've built most of my decks without more than a few pieces of ramp. Even my mono-black dedicated ramp deck (Geth) is more reliant on nonbasics (coffers and co) and creatures (crypt ghast, nirkana revenant), both of which it can easily recur, instead of artifacts. So I feel like people are overemphasizing how important ramp is.
That said, not a fan of the card. I like having artifacts and enchantments, an efficient and reusable boardwipe with a body for them doesn't make me happy. But this whole "setting me back 5 turns, mana-wise" thing is crazy, you'd have to be playing a very dedicated ramp deck for that. Compared to how efficient nihil spellbomb is at hosing graveyard-based decks, this is a relatively low powered hoser.
My problem with Bane of Progress isn't so much that it forces you to play green if you want to ramp, but that it almost completely invalidates certain deck types. I was thinking about building an enchantress type deck, but now I feel like that would be a bad idea because this guy will be all over the format, and someone will just tutor into him and blow me out of the water. If I somehow manage to rebuild my board, he will just get flickered and I will be back to square one yet again. The same thing would be the case with any deck that is heavily focused on artifacts, especially Karn. I was also interested in working on a Sydri deck, and I'm getting the Esper precon, but this guy just wrecks any artifact or enchantment based deck so hard that it makes them basically not worth playing. He probably belongs in my Mimeoplasm deck, but I'm not planning to add him because I hate what the card represents.
EDH is really simple. Step one, does the commander have green? If yes you have an advantage, if no, you will get blown out by bane of progress and out ramped by green.
I think it's interesting that everyone seems to think that ramp is required in EDH. I mean sure, you're obviously running crypt and ring because they're broken as hell (and so is any green player) but past those mana accel really depends on the deck.
I definitely agree more with Dirk here. There is no denying that more mana is a good thing, but you don't win EDH by getting to 20 mana first. I usually run around 6 ramp sources (and almost never Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, since color screw is a much more common problem than mana screw for me), and when it you curve out at 6 or "I wasn't going to hard cast this anyways" it's more of an insurance that your early game has options.
At 6cmc,Bane of Progress isn't going to do anything that an Aura Shards or Fracturing Gust can't do. The biggest complaint seems to be that it can be recurred/blinked, which makes playing new artifacts/enchantments pointless. In that case, just kill it. Exile it (from the graveyard or battlefield), kill the enabler, whatever. Yes, this is a poor argument for why a creature isn't a big deal, but anything a player could do with this they could also do to something worse.
My problem with Bane of Progress isn't so much that it forces you to play green if you want to ramp, but that it almost completely invalidates certain deck types. I was thinking about building an enchantress type deck, but now I feel like that would be a bad idea because this guy will be all over the format, and someone will just tutor into him and blow me out of the water. If I somehow manage to rebuild my board, he will just get flickered and I will be back to square one yet again. The same thing would be the case with any deck that is heavily focused on artifacts, especially Karn. I was also interested in working on a Sydri deck, and I'm getting the Esper precon, but this guy just wrecks any artifact or enchantment based deck so hard that it makes them basically not worth playing.
In Esper or Bant Enchantress, play an adequate suite of counterspells, plus Torpor Orb. Problem solved. The Karn player may well be screwed unless he gets Darksteel Forge out quickly (generally a Karn player's goal anyhow), but Memnarch, Sydri or Sharuum shouldn't find this guy too terrifying, nor should Hanna. Of course, Karn can also run things like Jester's Cap to just proactively get rid of Bane of Progress along with Vandalblast.
I think it's a mindless card of a sort the format didn't really need, but it's not the end of the world.
Bane of progress is a fracturing gust that can easily be recurred in a color that has decent recursion and the best land ramp in the game. You'd have to be stupid to go mana rocks for ramp at this point. It's just safer to add green and ramp without having random bane of progress knock you 5 turns back. If MLD was acceptable in most edh playgroups this wouldn't even be an issue, but you can't run MLD because you become "that guy."
EDH is really simple. Step one, does the commander have green? If yes you have an advantage, if no, you will get blown out by bane of progress and out ramped by green.
I'm offended because with bane you can flicker it and recur it for next to nothing whenever you see a artifact or enchantment. It's a royal pain in the ass and I have to abuse it.
At this point I think we need to agree to disagree, because any response I give to you is just me repeating myself. I don't know what else I can add, since you seem to assume that the only thing Bane will hit are mana rocks and green players never play artifacts and enchantments.
I will respond to your scenario of Bane being flickered. If I cast Bane, hit a bunch of stuff and make him big, then flicker him because someone played an artifact, then I'm either a bad player or desperate to get rid of a really bad artifact. Both of these scenarios should be good for you as an opponent, assuming it wasn't your artifact I smartly blew up.
I think the major problem with Bane is that if you're heavy on enchantments and artifacts, you're either going to be running blue, green, or a low-curve blitz deck if you want to deal with it. However, it does mean that the bane player will not be running too many troll artifacts/enchantments
How is such a weak card being discussed are we that desperate to have a banning discussion? What ban criteria does it meet? I can't think of one deck id want to cram that card into. I agree with JWK comparing this to balance is like comparing Ancestral Recall to Apocolypse Chime.
Honestly, my problem with the card is that it is so gratuitous in its hatred of certain archetypes that it is almost painful. I mean... My Kemba Equipment deck is pretty much hosed by this one card. The only things that survive are the Kaldra pieces (assuming I have the indestructible Sheild out) and Darksteel Plate. Yes, I can find ways of dealing with it, but all I wanted to do was play with equipment cards and make cat tokens in my mono-white deck. Now I have to deal with some jerk blowing me out. Lol, my friends Saffi deck will be sure to do so repeatedly. I guess I should just lube up now...cause man that will be painful. I will not even delve into how much this hurts my G/W Enchantress deck...or the fact that we just got to a set with a ton of cool enchantments that outside of the God cards all die to this monster, Sigh.
But the fact is it will never be banned or ban worthy in this format. Wizards had just enough sense to make sure it hit every artifact and enchantment on the board. While some decks, like my friends Saffi deck, that almost exclusively rely on spell and creature based ramp will be unaffected and thus be able to use the card to it's fullest...others will have to weigh whether it is worth potentially hurting their board position to run this guy. I know I have a ETB Jenara deck that this will not see play in simply because I run too many enchantments and artifacts that this guy will pop. The saving grace of this design is that it has perhaps too much hate.
Still, I really hate inelegant cards like this. Cards that attempt to stifle creativity. Which is a lot of what draws me to EDH.
If you're weak to this Bane of Progress, then consider running extra creature hate, especially board wipes. The types of decks that really stand to benefit from it rely more on cards besides artifacts and enchantments to win, and this usually means creatures. Being a green creature, they will probably be running lots of creature tutors to find it and other toolbox creatures. You can probably blow them out by casting a Wrath of God just as much as they can blow you out with Bane.
Remember to save your Boros Charm for this guy if you're in those colors. For Kemba, you at least have Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Bane of Progress really isn't that bad after looking at it for more than 5 minutes. The simple solution is to play around it, and play Jester's Cap in all your decks to remove it from the game. I know Torpor Orb won't ride you to victory, but it will delay the ramp activities from most of the green player's creature list.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
If this creature was white.... no one would be complaining. I hate the fact that they printed it, it think it just pushes green over the top and makes EDH go green or go home. But it's no where near banworthy, just a game changer.
I wouldn't say Green is the best colour for EDH to obtain wins. Outside of Galspanic's house, I win most my games and I don't play Green. That doesn't apply to me.
Game changer is right though.
Now, green players can complain a bit less about why X is unfair and how Blue/Black has so much more advantages in Y.
You are right, if this card was White or even Red; no one would complain. If this card was 3RW Bane of Progress; 3/4, comes into play Austere Command for each permanent destroyed this way, Bane of Progress gets a +1/+1 counter.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
By my count, your Stonebrow deck runs 14 artifacts/enchantments, and your Nath deck runs 17.
Why are people so narrow-minded by this card that all they can think is that it promotes land ramp? Yes, green is king for being able to land ramp, but so what? Every color has access to colorless land-fetchers that are EDH playable (Sad Robot, Bauble, and now Burnished Hart). Each color also has multiple mana doubling rocks.
Why? Green is solidly in the color of mass artiifact removal, as well as enchantment removal. It also is big on creatures getting bigger. There is nothing wrong with it being green, although WG or W/G would work just as well (and upset a less people). People are complaining because OH MY GOD GREEN GOT ANOTHER ETB CREATURE
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Clan RepresentativeBane is going to be jammed in every good stuff deck that has a hard time dealing with stax, lock down, control builds.
Guess what? please and thank you.
You just did our job for us under the guise of thinking you're actually ruining our strategy.
You're not. Yes, I over reacted at first, but after sobering up and actually thinking about it, I would never counter that spell. I realized I don't over extend, I sand bag until it's right to play cards, and I bait. Blowing up my dumb three things while wrecking everyone's mana rocks makes it very juicy to nuke lands, stick a smoke stack , or drop a
trading post.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Like I said before, this card has been a long time coming; I just never expected it to be attached to an ETB trigger. I mean, look how careful they have been with wraths on creatures in the past. Is far as I can see this is the first unconditional wrath attached to an ETB trigger. The demons they've printed, the Myojins, they all have to be cast. The closest thing I can think of is Sunblast Angel, and he only hits tapped creatures.
It was inevitable really, it's just part of power creep. People are just annoyed that green keeps getting these crazy value cards. I'm not saying other colors don't, but green is unarguably the poster child for this ETB movement. This is compounded by the fact that wizards seems on a mission to print as many of the damned things as possible without printing new solutions.
I don't have a problem with ETB creatures, I think they are awesome. What I have a problem with is that they have become this dominant force in commander that continues to go unchecked. Wizards seems to be on a crusade to make commander more casual, as evidenced by cards like From the Ashes and Unexpectedly Absent, but it is backfiring; more and more people are gravitating toward a cut-throat mentality as a result. A year or two ago if I had posted a stax deck on the commander forum I would have been promptly dispatched by an angry mob of pitchfork wielding highlanders. That has changed dramatically and I believe it's because people are fed up.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
It just promotes ramp and downgrades artifact ramp. The problem is that a lot of decks will be running green instead of any color because it's not affected by:
Artifact hate
Enchantment hate
But is only affected by something that hurts all players:Mass Land Destruction.
In other words, it promotes Green and shoves to the side all other colors that don't have land ramp or counters, which means that most decks will be running blue or green or both.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
I just feel green is way to saturated compared to other colors. White has no real ramping options outside of mana rocks. Green and mana rocks don't belong in the same sentence.
I agree with you on many things, Phil, but Balance should never, ever be taken off the banlist. Too overpowered, by far. Suggesting it's needed to counter things like Bane of Progress is like suggesting people need heavy artillery for personal defense or hunting.
None of the other colors have consistent ramping options aside from rocks. That's just the nature of the color pie. Look at Bane strictly as a card and a color. Green is the color of nature. It fights technology (artifacts) and magic (enchantments), proof of which is in the large number of targeted removal green gets towards those two card types, as well as the occasional wrath. Bane of Progress is a very green card. If you or anyone want's to argue that, I feel they're wrong.
Now, do you want to argue that Wizards has been pushing players towards certain colors and strategies because of the numerous cards it prints, perhaps with the best of intentions? Sure, I'll agree with you there and back you up. I simply don't agree that Bane of Progress, by itself, is pushing players away from mana rocks and towards ramp, because as you or maybe others have said, green players usually already rely on Rampant Growths. As proof, when don challenged me on my assertion, I pointed out that his green decks each contained over a dozen cards that would be destroyed by Bane. This is my overall motivation, to get everyone to stop focusing on their Sol Rings that will get blown up and remember that their Swords will too.
This isn't all that dissimilar than Sylvan Primordial - everyone always remembers when their basic Mountain got blown up, but never remembers their Gauntlet of Power getting targeted.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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I agree with this.
Mana rocks are actually faster then green ramp, but are more likely to be blown out by board wipes. That's just how it goes. I really don't know why people are so offended by Bane of Progress. Sure we get purify on a dude, but it's not like you can keep flickering it to get more advantage. You play it once and blow up everyone's stuff, and then hold onto a flicker spell/reanimation spell to retrigger it's ability when people start playing more artifacts/enchantments? It's not a card you can mindlessly abuse. After the first wipe, people are generally going to be smarter and not puke vulnerable permanents back onto the field. With Sylvan Primordial I could at least see why people were afraid of it. With Bane I really can't see why it's causing such an uproar. If you don't overextend, and have a well rounded deck I don't see how Bane will shut your deck down.
My Saffi deck
Bane of progress is a fracturing gust that can easily be recurred in a color that has decent recursion and the best land ramp in the game. You'd have to be stupid to go mana rocks for ramp at this point. It's just safer to add green and ramp without having random bane of progress knock you 5 turns back. If MLD was acceptable in most edh playgroups this wouldn't even be an issue, but you can't run MLD because you become "that guy."
EDH is really simple. Step one, does the commander have green? If yes you have an advantage, if no, you will get blown out by bane of progress and out ramped by green.
I'm offended because with bane you can flicker it and recur it for next to nothing whenever you see a artifact or enchantment. It's a royal pain in the ass and I have to abuse it.
Whelp I won't mind if you ever play against me. Only one of my decks has a lot of artifacts/enchantments and that deck is Slobad. I doubt I'll run Bane as the people I play with don't run a lot of enchantments/artifacts. Although I do like how I can recur it with reveilark.
My Saffi deck
That said, not a fan of the card. I like having artifacts and enchantments, an efficient and reusable boardwipe with a body for them doesn't make me happy. But this whole "setting me back 5 turns, mana-wise" thing is crazy, you'd have to be playing a very dedicated ramp deck for that. Compared to how efficient nihil spellbomb is at hosing graveyard-based decks, this is a relatively low powered hoser.
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GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
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I definitely agree more with Dirk here. There is no denying that more mana is a good thing, but you don't win EDH by getting to 20 mana first. I usually run around 6 ramp sources (and almost never Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, since color screw is a much more common problem than mana screw for me), and when it you curve out at 6 or "I wasn't going to hard cast this anyways" it's more of an insurance that your early game has options.
At 6cmc,Bane of Progress isn't going to do anything that an Aura Shards or Fracturing Gust can't do. The biggest complaint seems to be that it can be recurred/blinked, which makes playing new artifacts/enchantments pointless. In that case, just kill it. Exile it (from the graveyard or battlefield), kill the enabler, whatever. Yes, this is a poor argument for why a creature isn't a big deal, but anything a player could do with this they could also do to something worse.
In Esper or Bant Enchantress, play an adequate suite of counterspells, plus Torpor Orb. Problem solved. The Karn player may well be screwed unless he gets Darksteel Forge out quickly (generally a Karn player's goal anyhow), but Memnarch, Sydri or Sharuum shouldn't find this guy too terrifying, nor should Hanna. Of course, Karn can also run things like Jester's Cap to just proactively get rid of Bane of Progress along with Vandalblast.
I think it's a mindless card of a sort the format didn't really need, but it's not the end of the world.
At this point I think we need to agree to disagree, because any response I give to you is just me repeating myself. I don't know what else I can add, since you seem to assume that the only thing Bane will hit are mana rocks and green players never play artifacts and enchantments.
I will respond to your scenario of Bane being flickered. If I cast Bane, hit a bunch of stuff and make him big, then flicker him because someone played an artifact, then I'm either a bad player or desperate to get rid of a really bad artifact. Both of these scenarios should be good for you as an opponent, assuming it wasn't your artifact I smartly blew up.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Tell that to Kamahl.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429